Chat about a DIY Nanonote
21:24 < kristianpaul> okay, hey other question :), have you tought i a DIY NN kit, i mean just assemnle and solder at home (for those who can and want :))
21:34 < wolfyg> sure why not
21:34 < wolfyg> problem is execution :-)
21:35 < wolfyg> think about the economics of the hardware industry for a moment
21:35 < wolfyg> let's say a NanoNote for 99 USD
21:35 < wolfyg> it's a miracle!!!
21:35 < wolfyg> really!!!
21:35 < wolfyg> imagine this huge amount of technology and work in this little device
21:35 < wolfyg> it's really unbelievable if you mentally zoom into all the pieces
21:35 < kristianpaul> hmm true
21:35 < wolfyg> even just all the steps aroudn SMT & assembly & testing
21:36 < wolfyg> it's mind-boggling
21:36 < kristianpaul> hehe
21:36 < kristianpaul> yup
21:36 < wolfyg> so how is this possible?
21:36 < wolfyg> how can it be sold for 99 USD?
21:36 < wolfyg> because of high volume
21:36 < wolfyg> the holy grail
21:36 < wolfyg> that's why the SoC is 2.50 USD
21:36 < kristianpaul> ahh
21:36 < wolfyg> and why the complete SMT + assembly is 3-4 USD
21:36 < wolfyg> and so on
21:36 < wolfyg> so now, on the other side
21:36 < wolfyg> you have an individual somewhere
21:36 < wolfyg> they are bored by all the hardware being the same
21:36 < wolfyg> everybody is
21:37 < wolfyg> but, if you propose them - have this cool unique piece of hardware for, say, 50,000 USD
21:37 < wolfyg> what will they say?
21:37 < kristianpaul> ehh no
21:37 < wolfyg> they say: No thanks, then I'd rather take the same boring thing as everybody else.
21:37 < wolfyg> so, it is absolutely no problem to get people excited about the idea of getting a unique, different device for small money
21:38 < wolfyg> problem is that it's impossible to deliver :-)
21:38 < kristianpaul> so all the NN assembly process is made by machines?
21:38 < wolfyg> no
21:38 < wolfyg> I am trying to make a point.
21:38 < wolfyg> there is a conflict here
21:38 < wolfyg> in theory I want to offer as many DIY kits as imaginable
21:38 < kristianpaul> so there are bad paid people some where?
21:38 < wolfyg> all parts separately, etc.
21:38 < kristianpaul> aha
21:38 < wolfyg> but all of that creates cost
21:38 < wolfyg> even adding an SKU in the warehouse creates cost
21:39 < wolfyg> so I think if we don't want to destroy our project financially, we need to be careful with those ideas
21:39 < wolfyg> first step: open 100% of documentation, technology
21:39 < kristianpaul> sure :)
21:39 < wolfyg> that makes DIY kits possible
21:39 < wolfyg> which one of those we really execute ourselves then is a very careful deliberation process
21:40 < kristianpaul> of course thats the after do what is beeing doing now
21:40 < wolfyg> it's very easy to fall into the trap of some people's excitement, forgetting that the economics will never come out
21:40 < kristianpaul> :(
21:40 < wolfyg> like I said
21:40 < wolfyg> everybody wants to have a unique/different device
21:40 < kristianpaul> :)
21:40 < wolfyg> everybody is bored by the uniformity of consumer electronics
21:40 < wolfyg> but nobody wants to pay more
21:40 < kristianpaul> indeed
21:41 < wolfyg> so they get what they are really willing to pay for
21:41 < wolfyg> talk is cheap
21:41 < wolfyg> :-)
21:44 < kristianpaul> we need reconfigureable cheap chips :)
21:44 < kristianpaul> and copyleft :)
21:53 < wolfyg> I think low price is very important
21:53 < wolfyg> that's really the challenge for the business I see
21:53 < wolfyg> making expensive reconfigurable/modularized stuff is easy
21:54 < wolfyg> I am not interested in that.
21:54 < wolfyg> for me technology has to be powerful, and has to drive prices down, and has to drive the power to the people
21:54 < wolfyg> if we loose track of that and just make expensive toys for people who already have too much freedom I am not interested :-)
21:55 < wolfyg> so those are the things that make me hesitate a bit when thinking about DIY kits
21:55 < wolfyg> I could easily end up making expensive toys. Cool, but expensive and out of reach for many people.
21:55 < kristianpaul> make me sense
21:55 < kristianpaul> mass freedom copyleft hardware is the goal
21:58 < kristianpaul> so the copyleft design are usefull just for enterprises that can send to do 1000 units and more
21:58 < wolfyg> hmm, I didn't say that :-)
21:58 < kristianpaul> so if want a custom board, just a few will be expensive?
21:59 < wolfyg> I just explained my thinking to you, when you asked about DIY kits.
21:59 < wolfyg> we have a challenge here
21:59 < wolfyg> cheap is good
21:59 < wolfyg> low price brings the power of technology to many people
22:00 < wolfyg> but we are not designing devices with the primary goal being that they are easy to copy
22:00 < wolfyg> just read carefuly - it's not the primary (!) goal
22:00 < wolfyg> it's a side-effect
22:00 < kristianpaul> i know
22:00 < wolfyg> the primary goal is to make a very functional low cost consumer electronic
22:00 < kristianpaul> i undertand
22:00 < wolfyg> if driving down the price has the side-effect that it makes copying harder, we accept that
22:01 < wolfyg> if those two are in conflict, I would choose the lower price over the easier copyability
22:01 < wolfyg> if we don't do that, we will decouple ourselves from the industry and in a few years just make expensive toys
22:01 < kristianpaul> price rules those days ;)
22:01 < wolfyg> of course, as our secondary priority, we will try to lower down the barriers for copying as much as possible
22:01 < wolfyg> hence all the documentation, free tools only, completely documented production process, etc.
22:02 < wolfyg> does this make sense?
22:02 < kristianpaul> sure
22:02 < wolfyg> we need to write up some of those things into the wiki
22:02 < kristianpaul> with title...?
22:03 < wolfyg> for me free technology is not a end to itself, it has to actually be useful to regular people. that's our mission.
22:03 < wolfyg> if free technology is a toy for the rich & bored, that would be bad :-)
22:04 < wolfyg> also it wouldn't be economically successful, I'm sure
22:04 < kristianpaul> and thats good have regular people, even if i cant not copy my NN, i now i have copyleft stuff and not a cheap and dirty tech toy
22:04 < kristianpaul> copyleft with queality that i can trust i think
22:05 < wolfyg> yes
22:05 < wolfyg> hopefully because it's copyleft it will have longer life
22:05 < wolfyg> that would be great
22:05 < kristianpaul> :)
22:05 < kristianpaul> thats sounds good and have sense
22:06 < kristianpaul> hope hardware will be strong too :)
22:07 < kristianpaul> but surelly software is not the barrier
22:07 < kristianpaul> for the long life
22:07 < wolfyg> correct
22:08 < wolfyg> longevity as a goal does not exist in the HW industry anymore
22:08 < wolfyg> changing that will take time
22:08 < wolfyg> a lot of time
22:08 < wolfyg> :-)
22:08 < wolfyg> it goes down to every last component
22:08 < wolfyg> unfortunately (or fortunately for us), I can already tell you the crappiness level of typical consumer electronics will still increase a lot in coming years
22:09 < wolfyg> everything will cost 20 bucks, and the slightest thing that's broken means just throw it away and buy another one
22:09 < wolfyg> we are going in that direction very very fast
22:09 < kristianpaul> hmm yup, i dont like that
22:09 < wolfyg> companies cut themselves off of the feedback loop (because broken stuff is silently thrown away)
22:09 < kristianpaul> is no fair with consumer
22:09 < wolfyg> and in fact they can sell more and more units, which they love (even if they don't know why or the reason is that the prior units were all broken)
22:10 < wolfyg> well the consumer likes it that way too. It's convenient :-)
22:10 < wolfyg> but anyway we see
22:10 < wolfyg> one by one
22:10 < wolfyg> always easy to point at others and know better. Actually doing something yourself is hard :-)
22:20 < kristianpaul> yes, is hard but you learn, but not all the peple want that