Chat about a DIY Nanonote

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21:24 < kristianpaul> okay, hey other question :), have you tought i a DIY NN kit, i mean just assemnle and solder at home (for those who can and want :))

21:34 < wolfyg> sure why not

21:34 < wolfyg> problem is execution :-)

21:35 < wolfyg> think about the economics of the hardware industry for a moment

21:35 < wolfyg> let's say a NanoNote for 99 USD

21:35 < wolfyg> it's a miracle!!!

21:35 < wolfyg> really!!!

21:35 < wolfyg> imagine this huge amount of technology and work in this little device

21:35 < wolfyg> it's really unbelievable if you mentally zoom into all the pieces

21:35 < kristianpaul> hmm true

21:35 < wolfyg> even just all the steps aroudn SMT & assembly & testing

21:36 < wolfyg> it's mind-boggling

21:36 < kristianpaul> hehe

21:36 < kristianpaul> yup

21:36 < wolfyg> so how is this possible?

21:36 < wolfyg> how can it be sold for 99 USD?

21:36 < wolfyg> because of high volume

21:36 < wolfyg> the holy grail

21:36 < wolfyg> that's why the SoC is 2.50 USD

21:36 < kristianpaul> ahh

21:36 < wolfyg> and why the complete SMT + assembly is 3-4 USD

21:36 < wolfyg> and so on

21:36 < wolfyg> so now, on the other side

21:36 < wolfyg> you have an individual somewhere

21:36 < wolfyg> they are bored by all the hardware being the same

21:36 < wolfyg> everybody is

21:37 < wolfyg> but, if you propose them - have this cool unique piece of hardware for, say, 50,000 USD

21:37 < wolfyg> what will they say?

21:37 < kristianpaul> ehh no

21:37 < wolfyg> they say: No thanks, then I'd rather take the same boring thing as everybody else.

21:37 < wolfyg> so, it is absolutely no problem to get people excited about the idea of getting a unique, different device for small money

21:38 < wolfyg> problem is that it's impossible to deliver :-)

21:38 < kristianpaul> so all the NN assembly process is made by machines?

21:38 < wolfyg> no

21:38 < wolfyg> I am trying to make a point.

21:38 < wolfyg> there is a conflict here

21:38 < wolfyg> in theory I want to offer as many DIY kits as imaginable

21:38 < kristianpaul> so there are bad paid people some where?

21:38 < wolfyg> all parts separately, etc.

21:38 < kristianpaul> aha

21:38 < wolfyg> but all of that creates cost

21:38 < wolfyg> even adding an SKU in the warehouse creates cost

21:39 < wolfyg> so I think if we don't want to destroy our project financially, we need to be careful with those ideas

21:39 < wolfyg> first step: open 100% of documentation, technology

21:39 < kristianpaul> sure :)

21:39 < wolfyg> that makes DIY kits possible

21:39 < wolfyg> which one of those we really execute ourselves then is a very careful deliberation process

21:40 < kristianpaul> of course thats the after do what is beeing doing now

21:40 < wolfyg> it's very easy to fall into the trap of some people's excitement, forgetting that the economics will never come out

21:40 < kristianpaul> :(

21:40 < wolfyg> like I said

21:40 < wolfyg> everybody wants to have a unique/different device

21:40 < kristianpaul> :)

21:40 < wolfyg> everybody is bored by the uniformity of consumer electronics

21:40 < wolfyg> but nobody wants to pay more

21:40 < kristianpaul> indeed

21:41 < wolfyg> so they get what they are really willing to pay for

21:41 < wolfyg> talk is cheap

21:41 < wolfyg> :-)

21:44 < kristianpaul> we need reconfigureable cheap chips :)

21:44 < kristianpaul> and copyleft :)

21:53 < wolfyg> I think low price is very important

21:53 < wolfyg> that's really the challenge for the business I see

21:53 < wolfyg> making expensive reconfigurable/modularized stuff is easy

21:54 < wolfyg> I am not interested in that.

21:54 < wolfyg> for me technology has to be powerful, and has to drive prices down, and has to drive the power to the people

21:54 < wolfyg> if we loose track of that and just make expensive toys for people who already have too much freedom I am not interested :-)

21:55 < wolfyg> so those are the things that make me hesitate a bit when thinking about DIY kits

21:55 < wolfyg> I could easily end up making expensive toys. Cool, but expensive and out of reach for many people.

21:55 < kristianpaul> make me sense

21:55 < kristianpaul> mass freedom copyleft hardware is the goal

21:58 < kristianpaul> so the copyleft design are usefull just for enterprises that can send to do 1000 units and more

21:58 < wolfyg> hmm, I didn't say that :-)

21:58 < kristianpaul> so if want a custom board, just a few will be expensive?

21:59 < wolfyg> I just explained my thinking to you, when you asked about DIY kits.

21:59 < wolfyg> we have a challenge here

21:59 < wolfyg> cheap is good

21:59 < wolfyg> low price brings the power of technology to many people

22:00 < wolfyg> but we are not designing devices with the primary goal being that they are easy to copy

22:00 < wolfyg> just read carefuly - it's not the primary (!) goal

22:00 < wolfyg> it's a side-effect

22:00 < kristianpaul> i know

22:00 < wolfyg> the primary goal is to make a very functional low cost consumer electronic

22:00 < kristianpaul> i undertand

22:00 < wolfyg> if driving down the price has the side-effect that it makes copying harder, we accept that

22:01 < wolfyg> if those two are in conflict, I would choose the lower price over the easier copyability

22:01 < wolfyg> if we don't do that, we will decouple ourselves from the industry and in a few years just make expensive toys

22:01 < kristianpaul> price rules those days ;)

22:01 < wolfyg> of course, as our secondary priority, we will try to lower down the barriers for copying as much as possible

22:01 < wolfyg> hence all the documentation, free tools only, completely documented production process, etc.

22:02 < wolfyg> does this make sense?

22:02 < kristianpaul> sure

22:02 < wolfyg> we need to write up some of those things into the wiki

22:02 < kristianpaul> with title...?

22:03 < wolfyg> for me free technology is not a end to itself, it has to actually be useful to regular people. that's our mission.

22:03 < wolfyg> if free technology is a toy for the rich & bored, that would be bad :-)

22:04 < wolfyg> also it wouldn't be economically successful, I'm sure

22:04 < kristianpaul> and thats good have regular people, even if i cant not copy my NN, i now i have copyleft stuff and not a cheap and dirty tech toy

22:04 < kristianpaul> copyleft with queality that i can trust i think

22:05 < wolfyg> yes

22:05 < wolfyg> hopefully because it's copyleft it will have longer life

22:05 < wolfyg> that would be great

22:05 < kristianpaul> :)

22:05 < kristianpaul> thats sounds good and have sense

22:06 < kristianpaul> hope hardware will be strong too :)

22:07 < kristianpaul> but surelly software is not the barrier

22:07 < kristianpaul> for the long life

22:07 < wolfyg> correct

22:08 < wolfyg> longevity as a goal does not exist in the HW industry anymore

22:08 < wolfyg> changing that will take time

22:08 < wolfyg> a lot of time

22:08 < wolfyg> :-)

22:08 < wolfyg> it goes down to every last component

22:08 < wolfyg> unfortunately (or fortunately for us), I can already tell you the crappiness level of typical consumer electronics will still increase a lot in coming years

22:09 < wolfyg> everything will cost 20 bucks, and the slightest thing that's broken means just throw it away and buy another one

22:09 < wolfyg> we are going in that direction very very fast

22:09 < kristianpaul> hmm yup, i dont like that

22:09 < wolfyg> companies cut themselves off of the feedback loop (because broken stuff is silently thrown away)

22:09 < kristianpaul> is no fair with consumer

22:09 < wolfyg> and in fact they can sell more and more units, which they love (even if they don't know why or the reason is that the prior units were all broken)

22:10 < wolfyg> well the consumer likes it that way too. It's convenient :-)

22:10 < wolfyg> but anyway we see

22:10 < wolfyg> one by one

22:10 < wolfyg> always easy to point at others and know better. Actually doing something yourself is hard :-)

22:20 < kristianpaul> yes, is hard but you learn, but not all the peple want that

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