#milkymist IRC log for Friday, 2013-12-06

rjo_after the decade the arduino epidemic, the decade of "fpgauinos" has apparently dawned: http://www.xess.com/shop/product/xula2-lx25/07:02
rjo_s/the decade the/the decade of the/07:02
rjolekernel: thx for committing. i forgot to also add ngdbuild_opt to the non-edif case in _run_ise. its a one-worder. do you want a patch?08:41
ysionneauwpwrak: dunno :( 3 persons in CC were interested in the first place08:43
ysionneauif nobody is interested, let's say it's more free time for me08:43
ysionneauafter all I have my M1, I don't care that much08:44
ysionneaunow I'm interested if someone finds who the hell is desactivating DTLB (bit 0x40 in PSW) in my last email :D08:45
ysionneauI don't even write to PSW in the dtlb miss handler ...08:46
ysionneauall the other handlers are looping to themselves... and should freeze the M108:46
ysionneaumaybe a strange interaction between IE and PSW (because they are somehow related because of PSW[2:0])08:46
ysionneauI don't get it08:46
lekernelrjo, yw. yes, please08:47
lekernelthe mixxeo boards just arrived here btw08:47
larscso they'll hopefully make it right on time for christmas08:50
lekernelshould be fine, Germany domestic parcels aren't that slow08:51
wpwrakrjo: those kids grow up so fast ;-)10:01
lekernelysionneau, "interest" dies quickly when you start asking for things like money :)13:02
ysionneauyes I think the price is not very attractive :(13:07
lekernelthe hacker/maker market is full of low ballers who think hacking cheap Chinese gadgets is the best thing in the world13:09
lekernelI'm out of it now13:09
ysionneauI'm a little bit depressed about the fact that as soon as you want to make a real PCB with a few layers, a few connectors a some interesting components: then the price skyrockets13:10
ysionneaulike if you don't want to spend 700 EUR, you're stuck with arduino like projects13:11
ysionneauit sucks13:11
ysionneauwith 150 EUR you can buy nowadays pretty crazy electronic devices, or consumer stuff13:12
ysionneaubut when you want to make something ...13:12
ysionneauyou get nothing for 150 eur :(13:12
lekernelon the other hand, if you can deal with such PCBs, you can probably get a job that makes 700E very affordable13:12
ysionneauyes indeed13:13
ysionneaubut it seems to exceed the price that even people who can afford it tend to spend for "toys"13:14
ysionneauI mean, for gadgets or hacking projets etc13:14
ysionneauI hope we'll find some manufacturing techniques which enable the price to go down sometime13:16
lekerneldo those people do anything really interesting with those "toys"?13:16
lekernelhave you seen an impressive raspberry pi project lately?13:16
ysionneauI've never searched fo raspberry stuff but I bet that I can find a few interesting projects if I browse a little bit13:17
wpwrak(2048 cycles stall) ouch ! :)13:17
ysionneauwell, for instance the robotic club at my school used one to control their robot13:17
ysionneauwpwrak: yeah read-compare-write, for 1024 entries13:18
ysionneauthey used arduinos to count ticks of "coding wheels"13:18
ysionneaubefore raspberry existed they used an eeepc stuck to the robot to control it13:19
ysionneaunow they use a raspberry13:19
lekernelwell, the rpi/arduino is hardly an essential component of that robot, right? you could replace it with a pc13:19
lekernelyes :)13:19
ysionneauthe rpi is just the control stuf and contains the algorithm (path finding, avoiding collisions etc)13:20
ysionneauarduino counts ticks , report to rpi, and forward the rpi orders like "make the wheel go faster"13:20
wpwrak(700 EUR) well, milkymist is a complex device. you can make simple things cheaply, e.g., atben/atusb weren't all that expensive to make. to avoid the smell of arduino, atusb could nowadays also use some little ARM instead of an AVR. it would actually get cheaper :)13:21
ysionneaulook at the neo900, same issue13:23
ysionneauit's very expensive13:23
ysionneaubut indeed it's complex, and lot of components13:23
wpwrakyes. smartphones are about the worst you can have13:25
wpwrakplus, people have very strongly biased price expectations13:25
ysionneauhum looking at the M1 RC3 Bom it's $170 with PCB and smt13:25
ysionneauso what makes it so expensive?13:25
wpwrakat least for milkymist, there's nothing you could compare it with directly13:25
wpwrakPCBA price is USD 170 ? then you should be able to see it for ... about USD 500. the usual formula to apply is x 3. to cover yield, any taxes on your side, logistics, returns/conflict handling, and all that13:27
wpwrakyou could go a little lower if you do everything direct and avoid expensive things like certifications13:28
ysionneauwell I mean, not the price you would sell it if you have a company to run13:29
ysionneaulawyers, secretary, ingineers etc13:29
wpwrakbut then, you'd also want to make some money on it. have a basis for future projects and also have a reserve for when you hit an unexpected issue. e.g., some patent troll attack13:29
ysionneauI mean the price I would need to pay if I call a chinese factory and ask for 1 unit13:29
ysionneauif I want to make one for myself for instance13:29
wpwrakare you sure it's so low ? production run 1 -> USD 170 ?13:30
ysionneauI don't know : http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC3_BOM13:30
wpwrakalready setting up the PCB-making process should be > USD 50013:30
ysionneauit says $170 at the bottom of the page13:30
wpwrakthat's ~USD 2000 for 95 PCBs13:31
wpwrakand does not include the cost of SMT13:31
wpwrakthat's basically 100 bags of components13:32
wpwrakalso the component number should be ~100. so that's considerably cheaper than buying in single-unit quantities.13:32
ysionneauah I did not see the cell if empty for the "SMT" line13:32
ysionneauso to avoid all this expense13:34
wpwrake.g., the MIC2550AYTS, to pick a random example, costs at digi-key only 70% per unit at 100 pieces than at 113:34
ysionneauI would need to do the PCB myself, so forget about the 1337 layers13:34
ysionneauand do something like top-bottom13:34
ysionneauforget about BGA13:34
ysionneauand only use QFP chips13:34
ysionneauwhich usually are the smaller ones :(13:34
wpwrakso for a single unit you get ... about USD 150/0.7 = USD 215, plus USD 500 PCB making setup, plus USD 15 for the one PCB13:35
wpwrakso, about USD 730. add shipping and you're around USD 810-85013:35
ysionneauhow realistic would it be to make a clone of the M1 with just top-bottom pcb?13:36
wpwrakand that's still just the bag of components. SMT will have to be done manually.13:36
ysionneauand then manufacture it yourself13:36
wpwrakdunno if you can handle the FPGA with two-layer13:36
wpwrakbut if you pick a QFP, then yes, it may be feasible13:37
ysionneauah yes, QFP13:37
ysionneaubut then no LX4513:37
ysionneauoly LX4 LX913:38
wpwrakquite a piece of work, though. since there still are LOTS of things on the board13:38
wpwrakyup. and you have parallel NOR (get rid of it, use SPI), SDRAM, video in/out, etc.13:38
wpwrakfor my projects, i usually get at least 10 components. if the component is cheap and reasonably generic, a lot more.13:40
wpwrakthat way, i can make several boards, can also make partial boards for testing some subsystem (e.g., the board i made for anelok that has wheel and OLED but no MCU)13:42
wpwrakand i may also have parts for later derivative projects. you never want to run out of components :)13:42
ysionneauyes sourcing can become difficult for instance13:42
wpwrakand you never want to be soldering some nasty chip, knowing that it's the last one you have :)13:42
ysionneauit's even more true when you are a soldering beginner13:43
ysionneauI mean, a 150 EUR M1 would be very sexy13:43
ysionneaueven without say dmx/midi  video in13:44
ysionneauM1 or Mixxeo, whatever13:44
ysionneaua lot more people would be willing to spend 150 EUR13:44
ysionneauit's even more true when they don't have yet a very precise idea about what they will do with it13:45
ysionneauif it's very expensive and you don't know yet what you will do with it: you don't buy13:45
ysionneauif it's not so much expensive: you buy, and you think you will figure out later13:45
ysionneaubut I think I'm dreaming, such kind of pcb/components for 150 EUR will never happen I guess13:46
lekernelsince there are apparently no process-dependent hardware bug, I'm probably not going to need all 6 Mixxeo boards I took for me13:47
lekernelI can ship a couple immediately...13:47
wpwrakysionneau: there's your opportunity ;-)13:48
ysionneauwpwrak: what do you mean?13:49
wpwrakysionneau: what lekernel just wrote :)13:50
wpwrakysionneau: your path to an "inexpensive" mixxeo. well, you may have ordered one already.13:51
ysionneauI didn't order one13:52
ysionneaubecause honestly I don't think I have any use for it13:52
wpwrakysionneau: (cheap process) you need to go over BOM and process with a fine comb and throw out everything that gives you trouble. e.g., M1 would be easier without the fancy connectors.13:52
ysionneauI already have a very shiny M1 board which can do so much things13:52
ysionneauif it was cheaper I would have order one, just to support the initiative13:52
ysionneaubut it's really not cheap13:52
wpwrakthen you have the wide busses for analog video, especially video out13:54
wpwrakalso ethernet isn't exactly a small bus13:54
wpwrakgranted, a bus is most of the time just wide. but still.13:54
wpwrak(not cheap) ah, how much is it ?13:55
ysionneauwell it's something like 700 EUR, isn't it?13:56
wpwrakdoesn't sound too bad to me for such a small run13:57
ysionneauwell not too bad I guess13:58
ysionneaubut for a specialized device I won't know what to do with, it's expensive :p13:59
ysionneauI mean I already have the M1 for doing FPGA/embedded-soft-dev playing13:59
ysionneauI'm not so much into VJing and mixing13:59
ysionneaumy main interest is learning embedded stuff14:00
ysionneauat pcb-pool I can make a 100x100 pcb , 6 layers, for 134 EUR, at 1 unit14:03
ysionneaualtera Cyclone 3 EP3C40 comes with PQFP package14:04
ysionneauaouch it's more expensive than spartan 6 LX4514:05
ysionneauUSD 80 for the EP3C4014:06
ysionneauanyway, seems too hard a goal to make a cheaper M114:07
ysionneauand I don't have the time for it14:07
lekernelshipped! :)15:27
--- Sat Dec 7 201300:00

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