#milkymist IRC log for Friday, 2012-11-02

wolfspraulautorouters are overrated, I said it a few times :-) you should fully expect this kind of thing00:00
wolfspraulApple again 'stunned' everybody by manually laying out the ARM cores in their latest-gen A6 chips00:00
wolfspraulso given tech industry history, in how many years does everyone else manually lay out their chips too?00:01
wolfspraul2? 3?00:01
azonenbergwolfspraul: well they didnt manually lay out everything00:02
wolfspraul'manual' is probably an overstatement, I would think they just use heavy instrumentation/guidance so that it comes out clean00:02
azonenbergand i wouldnt expect GREAT performance from an autorouter00:02
azonenbergBut i'd expect mediocre rather than poor00:02
wolfspraulazonenberg: yes but you understand my point, the layout of apple's latest arm cores is very unusually 'clean'00:02
azonenbergYes, and was probably done by hand00:02
azonenbergMy point is, only the arm cores00:03
azonenbergnot the whole doc00:03
wolfspraulmaybe not worth it/not done yet00:03
azonenbergi'm going to say "not worth it"00:03
wolfspraulbut you know autorouters... don't expect too much from them00:03
wolfspraulthey can only do good if heavily guided00:03
azonenbergYeah, I just expect its best guess to be better than garbage00:03
wolfspraulright, and to run!00:04
azonenbergi mean that doesnt even look like a local minima00:04
wolfspraulI think that's where >90% of people have more important things to do anyway, and what keeps the autorouters in play00:04
wpwrakazonenberg: maybe try to hand-optimize it. see if you can find a better local minimum.00:05
azonenbergwpwrak: i'm doing hand placement now00:05
azonenbergi was hoping i wouldnt need to do that because i wont be on the xc6slx45 for very long00:05
wolfspraulazonenberg on apple's heels00:05
azonenbergi just ran out of space on the lx25 and am moving to the xc7a100t as soon as i have time to finish designing this board00:05
wolfspraulcan't be long until the lines are forming at his home...00:05
azonenbergi just jumped onto an atlys in the interim for a couple of months so my coding doesnt hit a standstill00:06
wpwrakwell, i'm not overly surprised autorouters in fpgas aren't doing any better than autorouters on pcbs ;-)00:06
azonenbergOh, i hand route all of my pcbs00:06
azonenbergBut thats because they are somewhat less complex00:06
azonenbergi can afford to hand tune00:06
azonenbergon fpgas i cannot hand route everything00:06
azonenbergBut hand tuning of autorouting is commonplace00:06
wpwraki like my pcbs very small. that pretty much kills autoplacing and autorouting.00:07
wolfspraulhttp://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/1676-hand-crafted-horsepower-apple-a6-soc.html00:07
azonenberghttp://colossus.cs.rpi.edu/pictures/2012/October/10-5-2012%20-%20switch/S7302929.JPG00:07
azonenbergall hand routed00:07
azonenbergwow, it's been a month?00:07
azonenbergand i havent had time to assemble it yet00:07
wpwrakpoor camera work but apparently good routing :)00:11
azonenberglol my cheap camera cant handle low light well00:11
azonenbergi dont think skill could save it00:11
wpwraktripod plus log exposure ?00:15
azonenberglong exposure... do you see how much thermal noise is on that sensor?00:15
azonenbergthat isnt motion lbur00:15
azonenbergblur*00:15
azonenbergthat's the sensor sucking00:16
wpwrakor flash. one useful trick is to use a bit of paper as a diffusor in front of the flash lamp.00:16
azonenbergI tried flash but i think it didnt turn out well00:16
wpwrakhmm, that much thermal noise is bad indeed ...00:16
azonenbergi mean its a long exposure but still00:16
azonenbergthis is a $50 camera from three or four years ago00:17
wpwraknote sure how it affects long exposure, though.00:17
azonenbergwhat do you expect00:17
azonenbergIt's irrelevant in short exposures00:17
wpwrakah, okay ;-)00:17
azonenbergthe SNR gets a lot better00:17
wpwrakone problem is that they increased resolution to ridiculous levels, while keeping the sensor size roughly constant. i think that has changed in the last years.00:18
azonenbergYeah, this was a 3-megapixel sensor that was pretty small00:18
wpwrak3 MP is still quite reasonable.00:20
wpwrakmy camera has 10 MP :-( (canon sd880is) nice camera in general, but i'd be happier with half the resolution.00:21
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