rejon | hi guys | 01:22 |
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wolfspraul | hey | 01:22 |
wpwrak | oh, the ghost of rejon speaks to us ! :) | 01:24 |
rejon | oh man, that sounds horrible | 01:34 |
wpwrak | for the last few months, you've been seen a lot but never heard :) | 01:35 |
rejon | Yeah, its unlike me I know ;) | 01:40 |
wpwrak | btw, will you go to FISL this year ? i missed the deadline again but i'll try to sneak in ... | 01:46 |
wolfspraul | the other day when talking about -ng, -7/ddr3, mirteo etc. the topic of how to simplify the m1 came up | 01:52 |
wolfspraul | I had some thoughts on this as well, but it mostly involves USB :-) | 01:52 |
wolfspraul | but quickly, for the record. the big value I see in the m1 board/product is that it is still one unified whole set, a whole product that works today | 01:52 |
wolfspraul | in full awareness of the thousands of bugs lurking everywhere | 01:53 |
wolfspraul | bugs and missing features | 01:53 |
wolfspraul | but I don't want to compromise the *set* we got to work together here, and fall into separate hacking projects where everybody can happily claim that this or that feature works, but unfortunately they all don't work together, anywhere | 01:53 |
wolfspraul | putting that aside, I can think of removing the following parts on m1, over time: | 01:54 |
wolfspraul | 1) native 5-pin midi | 01:54 |
wolfspraul | that one is my #1. 5-pin midi is deader than dead. I don't think a single of the m1 users has used it, or will ever use it | 01:54 |
wolfspraul | it's next to impossible to even buy these cables still | 01:54 |
wolfspraul | absolutely no new devices with this standard will come out anymore | 01:54 |
wolfspraul | we have started to support usb-midi, and if we continue with that (it's receive only now), then if anyone really still has some dust-collecting old midi devices they have to use with m1, we can refer them to those 5 USD dongles | 01:55 |
wolfspraul | the need for that is so low that I wouldn't even think of including them with m1 | 01:55 |
wolfspraul | there are a few things we would be dropping still, such as the hardware-level passthrough | 01:56 |
wolfspraul | or maybe electrical features in our native midi support that a usb-dongle could not do? | 01:56 |
wolfspraul | but I hesitate to claim that until we specifically know what such feature could be (long cables?), especially since I think nobody will ever try anyway, as I said 5-pin midi is dead | 01:56 |
wpwrak | (midi) i have !! even bought an expensive MIDI cable, which took about an hour of searching ;-)) | 01:56 |
wolfspraul | I think you agree with my points though, I try to make it as clear as possible | 01:57 |
wolfspraul | we can remove that native subsystem | 01:57 |
wolfspraul | nobody uses it, or will ever use it | 01:57 |
wolfspraul | we can refer people to usb-midi dongles, especially after we more fully support them (in & out) | 01:57 |
wolfspraul | but there is no rush for that removal, at the current volume it doesn't really matter whether it stays or goes | 01:57 |
wolfspraul | next | 01:58 |
wolfspraul | 2. rca analog video in | 01:58 |
wolfspraul | a bit harder case to make, but the reality is that our support and excitement for analog video in is muted | 01:58 |
wpwrak | i don't feel an urgency for dropping legacy midi but yes, it's usefulness seems rather limited | 01:58 |
wolfspraul | zero :-) | 01:58 |
wpwrak | (no rush) exactly | 01:58 |
wolfspraul | a zombie | 01:58 |
wolfspraul | oh sure | 01:58 |
wolfspraul | lemme continue with analog-in | 01:58 |
wolfspraul | so I think the #1 competition to the quality of that video-in we have today is any 15 USD webcam | 01:59 |
wolfspraul | our best argument against that is 'latency will be bad' | 01:59 |
wolfspraul | but that sounds like a lame excuse really, because nobody tried hard | 01:59 |
wolfspraul | so what I can foresee is that over the next year or so, with Linux/MMU hopefully happening, and the USB driver issue at some point being addressed, we get a chance to give some usb webcam a try | 01:59 |
wolfspraul | *after* such usb webcam works, we can compare the performance to what we have over analog video-in and the ADI decoder | 02:00 |
wolfspraul | and I somehow think who will win | 02:00 |
wolfspraul | we pay more for the old-style analog camera than for a usb cam | 02:00 |
wolfspraul | we need to source a separate 12V power supply for the camera | 02:00 |
wolfspraul | we only scan half of the lines, and nobody seems to be motivated to improve that old stuff | 02:00 |
wolfspraul | we pay 12 USD for the ADI decoder alone | 02:01 |
wpwrak | no idea about webcam latency. could be intrinsic in the way they compress, but i don't really know. also the cost of internal memory limits the amount of buffering they could possibly do | 02:01 |
wolfspraul | even if the latency of the webcam would be 10ms more, I would drop faster than anyone could make another argument :-) | 02:01 |
wolfspraul | that old analog video-in is a temporary replacement, just the right thing (!) to do to get the m1 package off the ground | 02:01 |
wolfspraul | but nothing for the long run | 02:01 |
wolfspraul | for sure not | 02:01 |
wpwrak | improving that old stuff may not be all that trivial. you'd have to de-interlace the signal, which is messy work. | 02:01 |
wolfspraul | sure | 02:02 |
wolfspraul | I know | 02:02 |
wolfspraul | and those codec chips are a loosing proposition as well | 02:02 |
wolfspraul | everybody with a sane mind will migrate away from them | 02:02 |
wolfspraul | but the order here is: get usb webcam support working first. that will take 1 year, best case. | 02:02 |
wolfspraul | once a new (even other) digital solution works, drop the whole analog video-in thing | 02:02 |
wolfspraul | after such new solution works | 02:02 |
wolfspraul | i.e.: not now | 02:03 |
wolfspraul | 3. audio | 02:03 |
wolfspraul | same argument as with video | 02:03 |
wolfspraul | we have a quite difficult subsystem there | 02:03 |
wolfspraul | yet we cannot really excel at any particularly powerful audio feature because that subsystem is hardwired for some use cases with the wolfson codec | 02:03 |
wolfspraul | one day maybe with linux/mmu/usb in better shape, we can plug in a 1-2 USD usb audio card, and may have the same performance for the user as with that entire audio subsystem | 02:04 |
wolfspraul | the wolfson codec alone will cost us more than a USB audio dongle | 02:04 |
wolfspraul | there is no way anyone could resist the business case of removing that internal subsystem | 02:04 |
wolfspraul | I see that even later than the analog video-in though, but it's on the same line of thought | 02:04 |
wolfspraul | my strategy is: protect the *completeness* of the m1 experience through to the user | 02:05 |
wolfspraul | don't rip out some stuff and leave users with even less of what they had before | 02:05 |
wolfspraul | first get the newer/better/cheaper solution to work | 02:05 |
wolfspraul | with midi we may almost be there already | 02:05 |
wolfspraul | with other subsystems such as analog video-in, audio, vga, we need some more time and get the replacement working first | 02:06 |
wolfspraul | which can take years | 02:06 |
wolfspraul | but then we can remove all that old & expensive stuff | 02:06 |
wolfspraul | that sums it up :-) | 02:06 |
wolfspraul | that's my contribution to the "how can we simplify m1, make it cheaper, highlight the uniqueness/power of the milkymist soc" debate | 02:08 |
wpwrak | (audio) that one has a reasonably good use case. digital audio isn't used all that much. and if you add too many dongles, the whole device becomes a mess | 02:08 |
wolfspraul | it's #3 in my list for a reason | 02:09 |
wolfspraul | I just explain my thinking, not any actions | 02:09 |
wolfspraul | none of #2 and #3 will even work anytime soon (the replacement) | 02:09 |
wolfspraul | the fact is that I can buy a usb-audio dongle for 1.50 USD | 02:10 |
wolfspraul | and it won't get more expensive :-) | 02:10 |
wolfspraul | the wolfson codec alone costs what? 4 USD? | 02:10 |
wolfspraul | I don't even want to know, because the business case is already a lost one to start with | 02:10 |
wolfspraul | if m1 could get some really unique things out of audio, that would be different | 02:10 |
wolfspraul | like a 20 channel synthesizer/mixer/whatever | 02:10 |
wpwrak | the point is that the product looks untidy if it's one box with a gazillion dongles hanging out | 02:10 |
wolfspraul | but that's not the case, we use the subsystem only to feed a simple line-in to m1 | 02:10 |
wolfspraul | sure we could put the dongle inside the case | 02:11 |
wolfspraul | but that's all premature | 02:11 |
wolfspraul | I explain my 'simplification' thinking, because I also want to move towards products that allow milkymist soc to shine | 02:11 |
wpwrak | then you have to worry about mechanical integration. are any of these cheap dongles designed for panel mounting ? | 02:11 |
wolfspraul | as opposed to us lugging around tons of legacy | 02:11 |
wolfspraul | I won't discuss it, it's too hypothetical | 02:11 |
wpwrak | ;-) | 02:12 |
wolfspraul | of course the audio subsystem stays for years | 02:12 |
wolfspraul | let's survive those years first | 02:12 |
wolfspraul | my point before even explaining my thinking was that we should protect the *completeness* that we have achieved | 02:12 |
wolfspraul | I will | 02:12 |
wolfspraul | 640x480 vga may sound crappy | 02:12 |
wolfspraul | but it works | 02:12 |
wpwrak | maybe we can find a cheaper codec. could even be usb, used internally. that's a pretty common choice for an internal low-performance peripheral bus | 02:13 |
wolfspraul | sure | 02:13 |
wolfspraul | that discussion is premature though | 02:13 |
wolfspraul | let's focus our energy on where milkymist soc is unique/powerful | 02:13 |
wolfspraul | and we have an audio subsystem now | 02:13 |
wolfspraul | it's not that we have to decide whether/how to do one - we have one already | 02:13 |
wolfspraul | of course I won't touch it | 02:14 |
wolfspraul | admittedly my simplifaction strategy involves a lot of usb | 02:14 |
wolfspraul | which causes understandable headaches | 02:14 |
wolfspraul | for any of this to work, we probably need linux/mmu, we need a different usb core, etc. | 02:14 |
wpwrak | the unique thing, for the VJ, are the smooth iterative video effects. and, if we put a bit more effort into it, also the ability to tweak them (midi or maybe something fancier in the future) | 02:15 |
wolfspraul | so - much later :-) | 02:15 |
wolfspraul | sure | 02:15 |
wolfspraul | did I make a point for removing/breaking anything that works? | 02:15 |
wolfspraul | nope | 02:15 |
wolfspraul | even removal of 5-pin midi is premature now | 02:16 |
wolfspraul | but I could see us doing that in the next major update maybe | 02:16 |
wolfspraul | there are no users of that and never will be... | 02:16 |
wpwrak | i think anyone who wants to use midi on m1rc3 may find it useful because the usb ports may already be taken up by keyboard and mouse | 02:18 |
wpwrak | but m1r4 won't have that problem either :) | 02:18 |
wolfspraul | yes | 02:18 |
lekernel_ | wolfspra1l: continue on that line, then add some stuff that make the product really unique and not just some slow computer, and you'll end up with something like the mirteo :) | 10:05 |
lekernel_ | good to see the ideas are sinking in :p | 10:06 |
lekernel | btw, if we have HDMI hooked directly to the fpga, we can have bidirectional video ports. | 10:06 |
lekernel | and the -7 series have an ADC for audio-in, and can PWM audio-out... so will be easy to have audio off the expansion header | 10:08 |
wolfspra1l | good [audio] | 11:12 |
lekernel | in defense of the midi-port, it's great for communicating with external AVRs (arduino etc.) without opening the box. as always, it's just that no one cares. | 11:13 |
lekernel | which of course doesn't mean it should be kept | 11:14 |
kristianpaul | PWM audio-out, really and get decent performance? | 14:20 |
mumptai | hi | 14:20 |
mumptai | multi-bit deltasigma is kind-of okay | 14:21 |
lekernel | wolfspra1l: how did you submit your talk to campus party? | 20:11 |
GitHub50 | [milkymist-mmu-simulation] fallen pushed 4 new commits to master: http://git.io/0jKfBA | 20:37 |
GitHub50 | [milkymist-mmu-simulation/master] Update ISim wave visualization window config file - Yann Sionneau | 20:37 |
GitHub50 | [milkymist-mmu-simulation/master] Indent fix - Yann Sionneau | 20:37 |
GitHub50 | [milkymist-mmu-simulation/master] Cleaning code - Yann Sionneau | 20:37 |
GitHub78 | [milkymist-mmu] fallen pushed 5 new commits to mmu-bios: http://git.io/gQWX-Q | 20:58 |
GitHub78 | [milkymist-mmu/mmu-bios] Add tests for DTLB exception handling - Yann Sionneau | 20:58 |
GitHub78 | [milkymist-mmu/mmu-bios] Increase stack size - Yann Sionneau | 20:58 |
GitHub78 | [milkymist-mmu/mmu-bios] Add MMU handling functionality - Yann Sionneau | 20:58 |
Fallenou | a nice dtlb-miss-exception handling test running successfully in ISim :) | 21:06 |
Fallenou | Will try soon on FPGA | 21:06 |
wpwrak | wohoo ! i hear trumpets ! horses ! the sounds of a million marching feet ! it's the armies of the mighty penguin ! | 21:49 |
Fallenou | hehe :) Hope the army will arrive soon enough ! | 22:08 |
Fallenou | if more tests tend to prove dtlb lookups and exceptions are reliable, I think I might soon start working on ITLB | 22:08 |
Fallenou | which should not be so different to implement | 22:09 |
Fallenou | but really more hard to debug | 22:09 |
Fallenou | s/more hard/harder/g | 22:09 |
Fallenou | will shoot an email soon with a sum up about dtlb exception handling and a few logs of tests on FPGA and ISim | 22:10 |
GitHub68 | [misp] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ohQ62Q | 22:17 |
GitHub68 | [misp/master] Memory allocator - Sebastien Bourdeauducq | 22:17 |
GitHub151 | [milkymist-ng] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/4in2RQ | 22:18 |
GitHub151 | [milkymist-ng/master] software/libbase: uintptr_t - Sebastien Bourdeauducq | 22:18 |
wolfspra1l | lekernel: I was invited by Nelson and he helped me through the paperwork | 23:24 |
wpwrak | Fallenou: with dtlb working, itlb should be a breeze :) | 23:27 |
--- Sat Jun 2 2012 | 00:00 |
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