hypermodern | Wolfspraul have there ever been feedback loops between more than one milkymist1? | 01:43 |
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wolfspraul | I don't think so | 01:44 |
hypermodern | where the synthesis is feed into the other via camera or through the internet? | 01:44 |
wolfspraul | well there are technical boundaries too | 01:44 |
wolfspraul | currently m1 cannot sample vga video-in | 01:44 |
wolfspraul | and it cannot stream video over ethernet either | 01:44 |
hypermodern | what if it came in through the camera? | 01:44 |
wolfspraul | sure, over the composite signal it could | 01:45 |
hypermodern | so that would be analog right? | 01:45 |
hypermodern | so repitition effects will show up? | 01:45 |
wolfspraul | analog, yes | 01:45 |
hypermodern | Awesome! | 01:45 |
hypermodern | I'm looking for Moiré patterns | 01:45 |
wolfspraul | not sure how good those 'repetition effects' will actually look like | 01:45 |
wolfspraul | sure - try! | 01:46 |
hypermodern | Well no-one has ever tried them | 01:46 |
hypermodern | :-D | 01:46 |
hypermodern | something like this may occur http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Moir%C3%A9_pattern.svg/160px-Moir%C3%A9_pattern.svg.png | 01:46 |
hypermodern | or video feedback with scan lines | 01:46 |
hypermodern | which would continually degrade to some state | 01:46 |
hypermodern | this could be really interesting | 01:46 |
hypermodern | I'm thinking about a show this summer with the qi speakers and laoban speakers | 01:47 |
hypermodern | and I think that a MM1 loop will be interesting of the theme of the show.... based on "Re-" meaning re use etc... | 01:48 |
hypermodern | or re-cycle etc. | 01:48 |
wolfspraul | good | 01:49 |
hypermodern | this moiré effect could be layered on top of the video synthesis either by refresh rates being subtly out of synk | 01:49 |
hypermodern | or by changing the angle of the camera http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Moire02.gif/160px-Moire02.gif | 01:49 |
hypermodern | Potentially making the people who move through the room become part of the degradation of their own image | 01:50 |
hypermodern | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern | 01:50 |
hypermodern | plus we could use the dmx controllers to flash the room | 01:50 |
hypermodern | to "reset" if video output gets stuck into black | 01:51 |
hypermodern | Potentially stroboscopic light would influence the effect as well. | 01:51 |
wpwrak | hmm, i wonder what effect the fairly low resolution of the composite video input would have on this | 01:52 |
wpwrak | but it could go either way - good or bad :) | 01:53 |
wolfspraul | yes, agree | 01:53 |
hypermodern | I'm thinking good | 01:53 |
wolfspraul | but the ideas can and should be tried now | 01:53 |
hypermodern | just cause I like analog video degradation | 01:53 |
hypermodern | ! | 01:53 |
hypermodern | OK, I'm drafting up a proposal, and I have the floor plans, and will make a mockup in the next few days, this is a very helpful conversation, Wolfspraul | 01:54 |
hypermodern | thank you. | 01:54 |
hypermodern | What is the refresh rate on MM1 | 01:54 |
hypermodern | 60fps? | 01:54 |
wolfspraul | no no | 01:55 |
wolfspraul | I don't think so | 01:55 |
wolfspraul | maybe 24fps? | 01:55 |
hypermodern | OK. | 01:55 |
hypermodern | as long as it's over 12! | 01:55 |
wolfspraul | it is | 01:55 |
hypermodern | that's where images flow | 01:55 |
wolfspraul | though in 1024x768 it goes down to 4 or so :-) | 01:55 |
wolfspraul | I think | 01:55 |
wolfspraul | but since it operates at 640x480, you get your >12 | 01:56 |
hypermodern | what's the default then to get 24? | 01:56 |
hypermodern | OK | 01:56 |
hypermodern | gotcha | 01:56 |
wolfspraul | it's just about performance here and there | 01:56 |
hypermodern | 240x480 gives 24 fps? | 01:56 |
wolfspraul | Sebastien works intensively on this stuff, we try to up the performance | 01:56 |
wolfspraul | 640x480 | 01:56 |
wolfspraul | I *think* it was 24fps, but not 100% sure now | 01:56 |
hypermodern | OK no problem | 01:56 |
wolfspraul | the bottleneck is memory bandwidth | 01:56 |
wpwrak | i also think it's 24 ... checking ... | 01:57 |
sb0 | 640x480 @24fps works, yes | 01:57 |
wolfspraul | at some point I think somewhat soon (?) we plan to switch to a new version of the SoC with faster memory | 01:57 |
wolfspraul | but let's say that will be another month or two out, I think | 01:57 |
hypermodern | Cool thank sb0 | 01:57 |
hypermodern | and is there any limit on how long a jpeg image can be held i.e. is there any risk of "burn in" like a plasma tv? | 01:58 |
sb0 | probably more, I'm back from the US only on May 13th, and the schedule is already quite packed | 01:58 |
sb0 | I won't have time to write much code | 01:58 |
wolfspraul | sure, but it's moving, and in the meantime we try to improve the environment and platform elsewhere. one by one... | 01:58 |
sb0 | then we need the old cores ported, at least the important ones | 01:58 |
wolfspraul | yep | 01:59 |
sb0 | and dataflow synthesis in migen to rewrite the hw acceleration properly | 01:59 |
wolfspraul | as long as migen is not aborted, it doesn't really matter whether it takes another month or two somewhere, since we have so many other good short targets that can make a difference to users today | 02:00 |
wpwrak | hypermodern: depends entirely on your display technology. i can't imagine any way in which a static/repetitive image could upset the M1 itself | 02:00 |
hypermodern | OK. | 02:01 |
hypermodern | that's what I fugured | 02:01 |
hypermodern | I knew it can effect certain display types, but I figured not the chip itself | 02:01 |
hypermodern | thank you for the clarification | 02:01 |
hypermodern | Is there any vector support for .svg? | 02:01 |
hypermodern | or only png and .jpg? | 02:01 |
wolfspraul | on the m1? no svg | 02:03 |
wpwrak | only pixels, no direct support for vector. there's some vector drawing for the audio signal, but i doubt you could use that for much | 02:03 |
hypermodern | OK | 02:03 |
wpwrak | wolfspraul: we may need migen to verify the M1r4 boards, though | 02:04 |
hypermodern | would it be enough to just have a series of lines rendered via vector and a second set rendered over the top off by a few degrees? | 02:04 |
hypermodern | similar to the images of lines I sent you? | 02:04 |
wpwrak | hypermodern: i'm not sure you have enough control over lines to do such things. also, lines are drawn by software, so that's quite slow. | 02:07 |
hypermodern | Slow is fine | 02:07 |
hypermodern | slow may actually be better wpwrak. | 02:08 |
wpwrak | hmm :) | 02:08 |
hypermodern | trying to render something like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern | 02:08 |
hypermodern | with math see the calculations of parallel patterns. | 02:08 |
hypermodern | slow will give time for the eyes to perceptually burn in | 02:08 |
hypermodern | contributing to the movement | 02:08 |
hypermodern | even though the image is static! | 02:08 |
hypermodern | So what I'm wondering is if MM1 can render static lines at maybe 4 fps (or slower is fine) | 02:09 |
wpwrak | you may have more luck with precomputed images. you could still combine them with the video in image. | 02:09 |
hypermodern | great idea,from two channels right? | 02:10 |
hypermodern | so if you had two transparent png that would work? | 02:10 |
wpwrak | you may want to change the code for that, instead of trying to make the existing system do that | 02:10 |
hypermodern | The problem is I don't know how to code | 02:10 |
hypermodern | I know how to make images though... | 02:10 |
hypermodern | :-D | 02:10 |
wpwrak | transparency is actually alpha-blending. so you get a merged image. but yes, you have two image channels there to play with | 02:11 |
wpwrak | ah, without coding skills, this may be difficult :) alas, the M1 code probably isn't even a particularly good place to get started. it's quite clean, though. but sometimes a bit complex. | 02:12 |
hypermodern | and I have an idea of a looping static image installation | 02:13 |
hypermodern | which is a video synthesizer not making video digitally | 02:13 |
hypermodern | but through loopback degradation and moiré patterns | 02:13 |
hypermodern | so the actual hardware drives the visual effects and the *perception* and subsequent retinal fatigue of the viewer makes it move | 02:14 |
hypermodern | Thank you for the input wpwrak | 02:14 |
wpwrak | no problem. hope it's useful :) | 02:15 |
hypermodern | so to make sure I understand what you're saying I'd like to go through it | 02:15 |
wpwrak | you probably just have to experiment a bit to get a feeling for what works and what doesn't | 02:15 |
hypermodern | in channel 1 I put 180 degree vertical series of lines | 02:15 |
wpwrak | for pattern generation, i'd suggest trying to make some PNGs | 02:16 |
hypermodern | and in channel 2 I put a 175 degree diagnal | 02:16 |
hypermodern | they both have transparent backgrounds | 02:16 |
hypermodern | and then I can make a single image using the alpha blend correct? | 02:16 |
wpwrak | you can have a large set of images and pick each channel from that set. so you can have dynamic effects - or just a collection for trial and error | 02:16 |
hypermodern | I see, do you by chance know what the max memory is for images that ar 1024x768? | 02:17 |
hypermodern | maybe something like 40? | 02:17 |
wpwrak | i'm not sure if transparency in images is used by M1. but since the blending is additive, black means that the respective image doesn't add anything | 02:18 |
hypermodern | Ah, good tip. thank you. | 02:18 |
wpwrak | the rendering only runs at 640x480 | 02:18 |
hypermodern | Ok | 02:18 |
hypermodern | how many images at that res? | 02:18 |
hypermodern | Roughly speakin | 02:19 |
wpwrak | and i think the effective resolution for images is only around 300x216. but i don't know where that limit comes from | 02:19 |
hypermodern | no problem...I just need to know how many roughly can be store in the mm1 memory | 02:20 |
hypermodern | to be mixed | 02:20 |
wpwrak | not sure ... maybe around 100 | 02:21 |
hypermodern | Perfect | 02:21 |
hypermodern | Thank you. | 02:21 |
wpwrak | i only went to ~30 ;-) | 02:22 |
hypermodern | OK...this gives me a lot more perspective. Thank you wpwrak and wolfspraul | 02:22 |
hypermodern | I'll be back with a better understanding once I draw/write out my goals for the installation | 02:22 |
wolfspraul | thanks a lot! | 02:29 |
hypermodern | You're welcome ;) | 02:29 |
wolfspraul | with m1 I think what you need to expect is that you want to try a lot of things (assuming you have that motivation) | 02:30 |
wolfspraul | and in many of those cases, you run into 'missing' features | 02:30 |
wolfspraul | eventually you hit the bottom, and are 100% aware of what m1 can do | 02:30 |
wolfspraul | from then on it goes UPWARDS! :-) | 02:30 |
hypermodern | Well at this point it's all on paper | 02:30 |
wolfspraul | because the thing is actually very cool, but it takes time to get out of the hundreds of perceptions set by other computers | 02:30 |
hypermodern | so I am trying to figure out the parameters of what the tool *can't* do and then I get my freedom | 02:31 |
wolfspraul | oh it's great, you are doing exactly the right stuff with m1 | 02:31 |
hypermodern | that's always true with any tool | 02:31 |
wolfspraul | yes | 02:31 |
wolfspraul | good | 02:31 |
GitHub27 | [board-m1] adamwang pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1/commit/78ef08946f92a24032c5ff89f2d7e01adc1aca4e | 06:51 |
GitHub27 | [board-m1/master] added Field for 'P/N' to part number and 'Smt' to record if DNP, correct connections. - Adam Wang | 06:51 |
GitHub194 | [board-m1] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1/commit/8e020ee2313bcf77a7d8df99364429a534f58282 | 08:04 |
GitHub194 | [board-m1/master] remove common.lib. use the KiCAD default device.lib - Xiangfu | 08:04 |
GitHub119 | [board-m1] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1/commit/d310ea06f35d28997824d4d2557184d6e44dc9d7 | 08:05 |
GitHub119 | [board-m1/master] add m1-cache.lib to .gitignore - Xiangfu | 08:05 |
xiangfu | wpwrak, Hi | 08:08 |
xiangfu | why you add './' to the 'components.pro' Library? | 08:08 |
GitHub3 | [board-m1] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1/commit/05fae055de763a3bb56d3b1eba9cd7e093c2c067 | 08:18 |
GitHub3 | [board-m1/master] Revert "remove common.lib. use the KiCAD default device.lib" - Xiangfu | 08:18 |
GitHub189 | [board-m1] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1/commit/9b6bf67f86265e2add950452bd051849639acde6 | 09:10 |
GitHub189 | [board-m1/master] MISC: add LED matrix - Xiangfu | 09:10 |
GitHub183 | [board-m1] adamwang pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1/compare/9b6bf67...038fea1 | 10:38 |
GitHub183 | [board-m1/master] added external USB ports A/B - Adam Wang | 10:38 |
GitHub183 | [board-m1/master] Merge branch 'master' of github.com:milkymist/board-m1 - Adam Wang | 10:38 |
GitHub26 | [board-m1] adamwang pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1/commit/35af0750795e6cf4ca31b305d84d5c231611f8a9 | 12:33 |
GitHub26 | [board-m1/master] added external USB ports C/D - Adam Wang | 12:33 |
GitHub43 | [board-m1] adamwang pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/board-m1/commit/430b1c9b168452c91b8b40cd5a9ecc6346aad530 | 12:53 |
GitHub43 | [board-m1/master] added internal USB ports E/F - Adam Wang | 12:53 |
--- Sat Apr 14 2012 | 00:00 |
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