#milkymist IRC log for Thursday, 2012-03-01

wolfspraulwpwrak: one question I still had open was about m1's ability to detect cable insertion/removal, for video-in or midi00:01
wolfspraulit sounds as if the video decoder has registers, but can they be watched efficiently in software?00:02
wolfsprauland for midi - is it needed at all? or can we detect incoming messages anyway, and nothing beyond that is needed?00:02
wpwrakmidi may be possible in theory. but messy. or you need a magic connector crafted by elves from the horn of unicorns00:03
wpwrakand yes, we can sometimes detect messages even if there's no explicit activity00:03
wolfspraulyes let's forget the connector, that seems to be the wrong path00:04
wolfspraulbut when a message comes in, the fpga senses the signals and eventually sends an interrupt? or how does it work?00:04
wpwrakvideo .. you can look for sync. i suppose you can watch the regs. you'd have to switch sync channels by sw anyway, to there's little to be gained to have, say, a signal telling you that sync has been found in the current configuration00:05
wpwrakunless you want users to manually set the configuration and then report whether a compatible video signal has been detected00:05
wpwrakMIDI is basically a UART. so you receive a few bytes. if they arrive without framing errors, you're probably good :)00:06
wolfspraulhmm. so for both of them (video-in and midi), we don't need to go beyond what is currently possible in software, detection-wise?00:08
wolfsprauland I guess the situation is similar for dmx as it is for midi00:09
wpwraki think so. for midi, it would mean opening a can of particularly disgusting worms00:10
wpwrakfor video, hardware assistance beyond what's already there would add little value. besides, i'm sure you can poll those registers a few times per second without trouble.00:10
wpwraki don't know dmx. but yes, i would expect it to be comparable.00:11
wolfspraulok great, seem all settled then00:11
wolfspraulis my impression correct that R4 electrical seems 99% finished?00:18
wolfspraulwe have this small issue of ADV7181C sourcing, a little slow but will get answers soon00:18
wolfspraulbut most likely we can assume the C to still be easily sourcable, and then we should probably postpone a switch to D until later. why open that for no known benefits today...00:19
wpwraki think we don't have the DCC5V switch in the schematics yet. but that's just editorial work.00:19
wolfspraulin the unlikely case that we are forced to switch to the D (or we discover something in it that we want very badly), that would be another todo item00:20
wpwrak(codec) whatever works :) did you ask them about their roadmap ?00:20
wolfspraulok cool! then we have... hmm. layout, kicad, boom, small run, usb fixes, test plan, sw updates.00:24
wolfspraulcoffee first00:24
wpwrakyeah. death by boredom isn't in sight :)00:30
wolfspraulwhen do you think we should start the boom/kicad effort00:34
wolfspraulI would like to participate, but if it's another week or so out that would help me00:34
wpwrakthe schematics conversion could start right after we finish the public review. if people participate in the review, they'll also have fresh memories00:35
wolfspraulok! why not00:36
cladamw(SPDIF pins) already added in J26 (just DNP, 2.54 mm, 1*4 pins) in audio sch sheet, ref.: http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs/milkymist_2012-02-20.log.html#t09:0101:04
wolfspraulgood morning btw01:05
cladamwgood morning,01:06
wolfspraulcladamw: it seems for now we can 'assume' that we will stay with the ADV7181C01:07
cladamwit's not being within those J21/J22 though.01:07
wolfsprauleven though we don't have hard data from them yet01:07
wolfsprauloh I understand [spdif j21/j22] all fine01:07
cladamwwolfspraul, 7181C which is very unclear to me.01:07
wolfspraulno, it's not01:07
wolfspraulthat's what I tell you01:08
wolfspraulI tell you: relax, we will source it, and we will not point to you for that...01:08
wolfspraulif you get answers in taipei, great. otherwise we get answers in shanghai.01:08
wolfsprauland worst case in shenzhen, they always answer, right? :-)01:08
wolfspraulbut at this point, we don't need to plan to upgrade to the D01:08
wolfspraulbecause for now I don't assume that there is some fatal flaw in the C and ADI wants to force its customers to D. I cannot imagine. I think the C will be available for years.01:09
wolfsprauland I don't think there is something so super attractive in the D for us that we want to hurry the upgrade now.01:09
wolfspraulwe have plenty of time later01:09
wolfspraulso: C for now, and we will find out where to buy it...01:09
wolfspraulthe D would mean that we have to seriously study the datasheet01:10
wolfsprauland probably also the schematic, and definitely the layout01:10
wolfspraulnot now, R5...01:10
cladamwJoerg's ideas on keying for J21/J22 is good.01:10
wolfspraulI meant "probably change the schematic, and definitely the layout"01:11
cladamw(7181D) okay, 'assume' to understand fully for R5. ;-)01:11
wolfspraulit's just for you to *assume* for now01:11
wolfspraulif there is a surprise, well, then we have to react01:11
wolfspraulbut I think we can assume the C issue will resolve itself soon01:11
wolfspraulADI is a very respected vendor, afaik01:11
wolfsprauldo you have a rough timeline for layout already?01:13
wolfspraulI mean a date when you go there?01:13
cladamwwe should send a final schematic review this week, then find mistakes from me in case, after that then following tasks:01:20
cladamw1. let house to placement then we depends on that for reviewing the all parts's placements, and see if house have serious feedback, meanwhile try to get mp sch from them then.01:22
cladamw2. generate dxf for mechanical file which i think Werner will like it also we use it to check carefully before starting a route, during this period, i think that there should be some tasks we'll meet:01:24
wolfspraulsure. I'm just curious how the scheduling with the layout folks goes.01:24
wolfspraulactually, what is the company exactly? do they have a url?01:24
wolfspraulI don't remember a name, we always seem to say 'layout house' :-)01:24
cladamwall M1 routed by http://www.plab.com.tw/01:27
cladamw2.a) considering how complexity of 6 usb circuits from house and react.01:28
cladamw2.b) considering if add another one machenical hole to provide J21/J22 to strengthen and not cause too much bend while plugging extension board, which we didn't dully discuss in advance well though.01:30
wolfspraulfirst time I hear that - 2.b)01:30
cladamwno, i chatted with werner before. ;-) but that time we took this consideration before route to discuss. ;-)01:31
cladamwyou can imagine when user pull plug into their extension board on J21/J22, it must have strength on near fpga, we don't want in the end, the solderibilty will be faulty after plugging by bend pcb. ;-)01:33
cladamwso must be provided a mechanism around J21 to suffer. ;-)01:34
cladamwPLAB possesses a whole vertical service from ODM and OEM case. I found it after we started for rc1.01:38
wolfsprauljust looking at the board01:39
wolfspraulwhat are those big spots for C23 and C25 ?01:40
cladamwthe area of C23 and C25 will be the placement for J22(10*2 header)01:41
cladamwwpwrak, how do you think that we take considering add mechanism strong way nearby C73 and J21's 19 and 20 pins ?01:43
wolfspraulwhat was C23 and C25 for?01:44
wolfspraullooks like some hugs caps, but for what?01:44
wolfspraulthat space will be freed in R4?01:44
cladamwC23 C25 is for audio LNLVLOUT[R&L] which we DNP it while R3.01:45
cladamwnow they will be smaller be as 0805 only in R4.01:46
cladamwwhich is suggested by Joerg. ;-)01:46
cladamwso C23 C25 would be the area for J22 in R4.01:47
wolfspraulsmaller is good01:49
wolfspraulI understand your point about expansion board exercising mechanical stress on the fpga01:49
GitHub157[scripts] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/bbr5fw01:52
GitHub157[scripts/master] reflash_m1.sh: update to 03-01, use the latest bios-rescue - Xiangfu Liu01:52
cladamwbtw, it must be have a idea there around J21 for strengthen which is also a task before routing.01:52
wpwrakcladamw: near C73 sounds good. will it resist only push or also pull ?02:01
cladamwwpwrak, i'm thinking to use the same strength like J12 hole to place around either J21:20 external side (i.e. near C73) or J21:19 internal side(i.e. the place between J21 and R112).02:03
cladamwwpwrak, 'only' this added 'hole' not to impact DDRAM and digital routes from fpga too much then it could be safe. hoe do you think? I would leave this when I am in house to talk with them to find a suitable place to placement this mechanical hole.02:05
wpwrakphew. finally found J12 :-)02:07
wpwrakso this needs a case change ?02:07
cladamwjust one another hole in bottom case, how do you think ?02:07
cladamwnot for top case.02:08
wpwrakyes, probably unavoidable02:08
cladamwI don't think user will think out a 'bend' will potentially damage solderibility for fpga.02:09
cladamwyeap, so directly add this hole is very important.02:09
cladamwwpwrak, another possible place, like around L3, how do you think?02:10
wpwrakyes, may be less trouble for the routing02:12
wpwrakwith DVI, the U18 area will get busy02:13
cladamwyes, we know it , just need to let house placement them firstly then we check all before start to route.02:13
wpwraki somehow think they'll have a lot of fun ;-)02:14
cladamwwpwrak, ha.. R4 will provide house a tough work/fun. ;-)02:15
cladamwalright, so I think it's time that I go for every details to finish draft sch. then review irc first then  list. ;-)02:17
cladamwwpwrak, any else to remind me ?02:17
wolfsprauloh I see02:18
wpwrakdid you already add the DCC5V switch ?02:18
wolfspraulanother foot/stand under the pcb?02:18
cladamwwpwrak, not yet, will add.02:20
rohwolfspraul: whats the timeline for R4?02:35
rohwolfspraul: just thinking ahead about cases ;)02:35
wolfspraulno exact timeline yet, and I don't have money for a large case production either, so I am exploring some crazy new ways to make case parts, such as cutting 3mm epoxy pcb cores at pcb makers :-)02:38
wolfspraulI haven't thought about it in detail yet02:39
wolfspraulalso size of run02:39
wolfspraulfirst of all we will make a small 6 or 8 pc pcb only small run, because there are just too many changes02:39
wolfspraulespecially the dvi-i part02:39
wolfspraulthat one is clear now02:40
wolfspraulthen the real run, we see02:40
wolfsprauldo you have any ideas how to cut costs of the case?02:40
wolfspraulin parallel I am selling r3, actually it goes quite well. I am down to about 15.02:40
wolfspraulif someone orders another 10-pack I may run out fast, in which case I will have to accelerate the for-sale R4 run.02:41
wolfspraulif we cannot sell R3 before R4 comes out, my rough plan is to just upgrade the units I have in-stock02:41
wolfspraulI don't want to get stuck on R3 units. In that case I would only need some new side panels.02:42
wolfspraulbut it looks like that won't happen02:42
wolfspraulif I get another larger order from somewhere, no need to upgrade02:42
wolfspraulso the R4 run will be clean, from-scratch02:42
wolfspraulthat's about the status quo02:42
wolfspraulthere are changes to the accessories too, just for completeness02:43
wolfspraulfor one I am planning to remove the silicone keyboard and remote control02:43
wolfsprauland instead include one of those small usb-rf keyboard/mouse mini keyboards02:43
wolfspraulcurrently sampling from several vendors, testing, comparing, etc.02:44
wolfspraulthen the m1 power supply is a little weak with 2A02:44
wolfspraulif we have more usb devices (r4 probably will have 4 ports)02:44
wolfspraulthat's a problem, because the power supply vendor already went out of their way to support our r3 mini-run02:44
wolfspraultheir normal moq is 5k02:45
wolfspraulso we have to shed some tears and cry a little and maybe we get that updated/redesigned to 3A or 4A02:45
wolfspraulI do feel bad for them, I know they have a real business to run as well.02:45
wolfsprauloh, then we need to source a dvi-i to vga cable as well, I just realize02:45
wolfspraulroh: bottom line, I cannot promise anything right now02:48
rohwe'll see... i think we can only cut cost massively if we change to a cheaper material and cutting techniques.02:58
wolfspraulwhat could that be?02:58
rohe.g. see if waterjet cut aluminium could be it... or even 'stamped' but that would need much more volume02:59
wolfspraulhave you done anything with aluminum - or followed others?02:59
rohlasercutting isnt getting much cheaper since we cannot reduce the 'worktime' of the machine anymore. atleast not more than single percent02:59
rohgismo had some stuff waterjet cut around the corner. but that was steel i think. a mechanical sample for a brake-disk03:00
rohthey want about 80E for them to switch on the machine. volume is another question03:00
rohthe acryllic material isnt even the big part in the price calculation. its worktime and overhead to get stuff done which is the most expensive besides the lasering itself03:01
rohtoo many manual steps. e.g. the shielding sheets need to be all drilled and 'entgratet' by hand.. same for making the stickers and put them on the metal03:02
wolfspraulmaybe joerg's aluminum-strip X may remove the need for that03:02
wolfspraulor a metallic case03:03
wolfspraulI will definitely try the 'use pcb maker' route, even if just to learn about price and what cutting they can do easily and not so easily03:03
wolfspraulas an experimental case03:03
wolfspraulbtw, remember the wood one you made once? by now it has bent badly, won't fit together anymore03:04
rohwell.. that would be either quite rough (v-cut and breaking it off) or milled03:04
roh(pcb stuff)03:04
wolfspraulnot sure, pcbs can and are made in all sorts of shapes nowadays, but as always it comes down to cost, volume, amount of work, etc.03:05
rohbent? hm.. did it get wet?03:05
wolfspraulno, just humidity I guess03:05
rohah. yes. that does evil stuff to unhandled wood too03:05
rohi fear that the mechanical concept we have now and the quality we want to archieve doesnt allow for any big cost cuts anymore if we dont push up the volume massively (atleast for the case)03:09
rohe.g. when it would come to a that big amount that we could invest that into a new, bigger machine here at raumfahrtagentur, we could also make a much better price i think03:10
rohmy current estimate says that that could happen at something between 100 and 250 cases. given that material, machine and worktime prices stay the same03:11
wolfsprauloh I totally agree but I also think we are on exactly the right path03:12
rohmolded case parts would ne nice, and much cheaper 'per thing' but have a extreme initial cost and are quite complex for a design we need to 'fold or clip around' the 4 sides. connectors on 4 sides make it not easy ;)03:12
wpwrakhmm, kristianpaul's laser-cutting wasn't so expensive03:12
wolfspraulwe have a beautiful case, and a good pricepoint for the product03:12
wolfspraulone by one03:12
wpwrakso either that shop is losing money or they k03:12
wolfspraulwe have a beautiful case, and we are trying to improve it now03:12
wpwrakoperate with lower cost03:12
rohwpwrak: i think he basically got it for 'stamp money' since it was only one and they handled it as 'example'03:12
wolfsprauleconomically, electrically (emi), mechanically, etc.03:12
wolfspraulI don't believe in 'high volume' per se03:13
wolfspraulthat's the mythical-man-month of hardware03:13
kristianpaulwpwrak: and i guess in china will be _super_ no expensive :)03:13
wolfspraulI have no problem at all if in the end we order more high-quality and high-cost cases from raumfahrtagentur03:13
rohsure. me neither. stuff costs what its worth. always a question of quality03:13
wolfspraulmost important is that m1 stays in stock and gets better and attracts larger orders/customers/investors03:13
wolfspraulpeople argue that a 30 USD computer is too much, then they go and buy a 300 USD Nike shoe03:14
kristianpaulindeed, quality is very important for the end piece (full for mechanical details)03:14
wolfspraulgo figure :-)03:14
wolfsprauland that Nike shoe has a 'bom' of < 5 USD ;-)03:14
wolfspraulso one by one03:14
rohi also think that atleast for now the 'everything opensource model' doesn work that easy as it does for us when one does too cheap devices in too high volumes03:14
kristianpaulmay be raumfahrtagentur could outsource lase cutting some where else and reduce a bit prices?03:15
wolfspraulm1 has a beautiful, stunning and well engineered case today03:15
kristianpauli mean, they know how get work done, thats is all about no? :)03:15
wolfspraulas I said I think 'high volume' is the MMM03:15
wolfspraulhigh volume starts with low volume03:15
rohkristianpaul: i did that already last time. but it means a lot of work for me anyhow.03:15
wolfspraulsomeone is eating the cost / investing03:15
wolfspraulno no03:15
rohkristianpaul: i got the laser results back as '4 big bags'03:15
wolfspraulraumfahrtagentur did excellent03:15
wolfspraula massive supporter of the project03:15
wolfspraulnot in talk, but in us having excellent cased products shipping today03:16
rohwolfspraul: we now have even a small (currently .de only) webshop infrastructure for other products03:16
wolfsprauland we sold 65 of those beauties to-date - not bad03:16
wolfspraulI need to do better on my end03:16
wolfspraulfor example I really hate the silicone kbd now :-)03:16
wolfspraulwant to switch to those beautiful little remote thingies03:16
rohwolfspraul: you need to visit us at our new location when you are in berlin again .)03:16
wolfsprauldefinitely, but I'm cutting my travel costs. saving up for the case order :-)03:17
rohand http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/Raumfahrtagentur has new pictures from some of the rooms03:17
wolfspraulfirst I will do my pcb maker experiment now. raumfahrtagentur remains the trusted gold standard option for r4 cases.03:17
wolfsprauland our pricepoint of 499 USD allows us to make an actual high-quality product03:18
wolfspraulif we can fill that with value, the rest will sort itself out. orders or investors come in, volume goes up, costs go down, etc.03:18
wolfsprauland if not - no point in scaling volume either :-)03:19
wolfspraulthat would only scale losses - for someone...03:19
rohwe actually would like to do and sell more products at raumfahrtagentur, but we currently dont know what kind of and know that if it would be too complex or costly we cannot prefinance it03:19
wolfsprauland we all know we are well positioned for scale03:19
roheither somewhere in the middle between the mm1 pricepoint and an arduino, or much above the mm1 (but also lower volume)03:20
wolfspraulif you think through the case economics first, I think you are on a good path03:21
roha friend of mine, elektra plans for some ultra-low-bandwith-p2p-pager project.03:21
kristianpaulwow 15 left03:21
kristianpaulroh: nanonote powered i guess :)03:22
wolfspraulroh: website/blog?03:22
rohi showed her qi-hw and the nn but its kinda compatible and not.03:22
rohit will be foss for sure. and its 'compatible' in thinking, etc, but she cannot use the stuff we have as it is.03:23
wolfspraulit must work, reach regular people03:23
rohbut i think it would ne interresting to have it as another product listed there, and maybe she can use the usb-vendor id etc03:23
kristianpauloh yes pagers dont have keyboard ;-)03:23
wolfspraulfor a p2p network to really take off, I believe there must be a way to reward the people helping to shuffle data around03:23
rohit will be a usb client device for now, doing a cdc-ethernet and a cdc-acm-serial. ethernet for packets and serial for radio config03:24
wolfsprauland the software stack must be stronger along the lines of delay tolerancy, because most likely an actual p2p network would be one with varying degrees of delay03:24
wolfspraulwhen those 2 things are addressed, maybe it can take of03:24
rohi heard something about 6km distance per device. and the radio does use so little energy that repeaters can run from solar alone.03:24
wolfspraul(btw, we are abusing milkymist for general open hardware/qi talk again ;-))03:25
rohwell.. its a pager so i think it could actually work, even with meshing. she wrote a book about that.03:25
wolfspraulfine by me03:25
wolfspraulyes totally, I love it03:25
rohi dont know if she has something online about it yet03:25
wolfspraullike I said, two things i always ask: 1) reward for data transfers 2) delay tolerant apps/stack/use cases03:25
rohi will tell her you like it and to register a project in the wiki and on projects03:25
wolfspraulme liking it doesn't mean much :-)03:26
kristianpauli'm interesting on what she uses for wireless, please make her join qi-hw irc channel :)03:26
wolfspraulmaybe it means it won't go anywhere ;-)03:26
kristianpaulto tell us mroe03:26
rohkristianpaul: 802.15.4 i think. but on 700-900mhz radios03:26
rohatmel radio and i think stm32 as mcu for now. cortex-m303:26
rohits in hw prototype status atm03:27
kristianpauli tought was some ISM cheap tranceiver03:27
rohkristianpaul: it is. she chose the chips for availability and price i think.03:28
rohthe goal is to use it with openwrt routers for now, and make a autonomous repeater later03:28
kristianpaulokay qi-hw talks after 2:00 UTC ;-) !03:29
kristianpaulsettle? :)03:29
kristianpaulJust kidding but is bad if i invite someone that not own a M1 to ask for collaboration for getting a port for its board?03:48
kristianpaulEven more less if may be he will need some help (as i do too somethimes) with to HDL fu related to clock domains? :-)03:48
kristianpaulSo the point is... this is not a learn verilog channell but we do be open and collaborative with other people interested in milkysmit?03:49
wolfspraulI don't understand03:49
wolfspraulof course this is also a learn-verilog channel03:49
kristianpaulor perhaps is a misundertood interesting, realizing for millymist first you need a lot of RTFM and thats all..03:49
wolfspraulif not he is invited to #qi-hardware, that is a learn-verilog channel for sure :-)03:50
wolfspraula port of milkymist to other boards still helps milkymist, if it creates new documentation, blog posts, ideally even some documentation or code patches sent back and committed upstream03:51
wolfspraulthat's my opinion03:51
kristianpaulgood, just asking, open questions :)03:51
wolfspraulI would be as inclusive as possible03:52
wolfspraulon the other hand, starting on the m1 board will probably save most people *A LOT* of time and bugs that others have fixed before03:53
wolfspraulso it depends on the goals of the other person. if they have some board X and just want to port milkymist to it, for the heck of it, then they should do that.03:53
wolfsprauland if they want to reuse as much as possible code that works tooday, and has been bug-fixed by several people for several years, I think the money spent for an m1 board is well spent03:53
kristianpauloh, absolutelly03:54
wolfspraulyou can go either way, just need to know what you want03:54
kristianpaulyou cant unleash milkysmist no more than getting a M1, for sure03:54
wolfspraulsome numbers03:56
wolfspraulthe last m1 run was 90 boards03:57
wolfspraulthe plan was to make 80 full retail kits03:57
wolfspraulso we sourced accessories 80-85-90, depending on how likely we thought that some would fail our testing03:57
wolfspraulsome things even 100, like the box03:57
wolfspraulthe end result was that we indeed had 80 full boxes03:57
wolfsprauland another 8 bare boards03:57
wolfspraul88 that 100% passed all tests03:58
wolfspraul2 still fail, put aside03:58
wolfspraulby now I have sold all these 8 boards, so only full kits left now03:58
wolfspraulin other words - I am open-minded to selling bare boards, we really try to make ever case work03:59
wolfspraulif it helps the milkymist project, it's good :-)03:59
kristianpaulare you still asked for bare boards?04:00
kristianpaulin comparison the the full kit04:00
kristianpaulok, read you later gn804:03
wolfspraulit's very rare and doesn't make much sense anyway. basically just known friends of the project :-)04:06
cladamwxiangfu, one question, i found that my video 7181C input source input from green rca connector to blue in ? but adv 7181b in rc3 works well.05:55
cladamwxiangfu, i replaced video adv7181B part to adv7181C, will somewhere like bios or f/w to cause this ? or like *.h file already there to detect C version in latest image ?05:57
xiangfucladamw, not sure. I think no needs change the source code.05:58
wolfspraulyes, definitely05:58
wolfspraulit was already discussed and it needs a few lines of C detection and different register initialization05:58
wolfspraulwhich I believe to some extent is already there because Werner has a C? or not soldered? don't know05:59
xiangfucladamw, ok. then it will not working with current software.06:01
xiangfucladamw, there is no code for 7181C for now.06:01
cladamwsorry that I should say the scenario on my rc3 with adv7181C is not 'always' from green input, sometimes if it disappear, then I plugged into blue then gui can show it.06:01
wolfspraulxiangfu: you can check the irclog backlog, it may be somewhere. or wait for sebastien or werner.06:01
cladamwxiangfu, oah...so there's no real codes for 7181c now, oah i see...phew...i was shocked a bit. ;-)06:02
cladamwxiangfu, thanks.06:02
xiangfucladamwa, http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/adv7181c/06:11
xiangfuyou can try this image.06:11
cladamwahe...yes this maks me reflashed C from Werner, yes. I was thought it's already inlcuded in current image though, thanks.06:12
wpwrakfor now, we just have that "proof of concept" code. no proper support in FN et al. the various other video in configurations (i.e., other than composite on green) FN supports need changing too.07:11
wolfspraulthat makes me think that a direct switch to D also would have its advantages07:12
wolfspraulwe will know C and D sourcing status soon07:12
wpwrak(switch to D) in my lazier moments i was thinking just that ;-))07:13
wpwrakbut it's a relatively minor thing. just need some table somewhere. and then figure out how to test all of this. that's actually the main work.07:14
wolfspraulbut since nothing must yet was done for the C, a direct switch to D looks attractive (just from that angle)07:15
wolfspraulI am a little worried about jumping on such a brand new chip though, even if it is available07:15
wolfspraulwe've learnt a few lessons...07:15
wpwrakFREE beta testing :)07:16
GitHub15[flickernoise] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/6uQuRg08:19
GitHub15[flickernoise/master] fixed issue #35 take the currect settings to full screen - Xiangfu Liu08:19
GitHub100[milkymist] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/milkymist/commit/f0936ed8fd86dff751a58956e7c690178498d76908:39
GitHub100[milkymist/master] Makefile: install softusb-input to sdk-install - Xiangfu Liu08:39
GitHub90[milkymist] xiangfu force-pushed hid from df9d9dd to f0f9e93: https://github.com/milkymist/milkymist/commits/hid08:40
GitHub90[milkymist/hid] pass ep_status to ep process - Xiangfu Liu08:40
GitHub90[milkymist/hid] softusb-input: add GET_HID_REPORT_DESCRIPTOR support - Xiangfu Liu08:40
GitHub90[milkymist/hid] cleanup code style, remove space after if - Xiangfu Liu08:40
wolfspraulcommits everywhere - great!08:41
wolfspraulI see xiangfu is in bugfixing mode, what more do we want?08:42
wolfspraulxiangfu: THANKS!08:42
wolfspraulhope all is tested well too...08:42
lekernelwell there are still some problems :p https://github.com/milkymist/bugs/issues/35#issuecomment-425414108:43
wolfspraulxiangfu: I have a new usb-midi controller for you btw, m-audio xsession pro08:43
wolfspraulsimple little thing (used one Jon gave me), but if it works itself (not broken), then it should work with m1 too. another device to test with... (will give you in our next meeting)08:44
wolfspraulwhen I plug it into my m1, the red power LED comes on - good first sign :-)08:44
xiangfulekernel, what I am missing? http://pastebin.com/JbHJggFW08:45
lekernelxiangfu: what did you change?08:46
lekernelah, I see08:46
xiangfulekernel, nothing. update flickernoise. then the error come out.08:46
lekernelyou probably forgot to upgrade RTEMS too (with my patch)08:46
xiangfulekernel, ok. updating... and re-compile rtems.08:47
xiangfuwolfspraul, (m-audio xsession pro) another MIDI :)08:49
xiangfulekernel, (full screen) will try to fix it today. :) sorry for that. maybe I git push -f. delete my commit at all :D08:50
xiangfuwolfspraul, when you press any button. if the are some 'active' under 'MIDI settings' ?08:50
xiangfulekernel, I met another error: /opt/rtems-4.11/lm32-rtems4.11/milkymist/lib/libyaffs2.a(rtems_yaffs.o):(.rodata+0x3c): undefined reference to `rtems_filesystem_default_fpathconf'08:53
xiangfurtems upsteam remove it under 'Sat Feb 11 20:35:53 2012 +0100'08:53
xiangfu'Removed fpathconf file system node handler.'08:54
xiangfutry to update the rtems-yaffs208:54
xiangfualready fixed09:02
xiangfuworking on 'issues/35' again :(09:13
lekernelxiangfu: don't rewrite history, just use git revert xxx09:22
xiangfulekernel, a new patch on 'Full Screen': https://github.com/milkymist/bugs/issues/35#issuecomment-425526109:53
xiangfu"Does not take format changes into account" it works fine here. even with that patch. did I mis-understand you?09:53
lekernelxiangfu: but it's still out of sync - if you run the preview, then change format, and exit the preview, the buttons will not represent the new format09:55
lekernelxiangfu: the simplest way you can fix all problems is by preventing the renderer from touching the video-in settings when you use it for video preview09:55
lekernelxiangfu: alternatively, you can reload the config after you exit preview. but it makes everything a tad more complicated...09:57
xiangfu(preventing the renderer ) but  it will be a little complicated on pass the video-in parameter to the renderer.09:58
xiangfu(alternatively, you can reload the config after you exit preview) I already did that on last comment patch. :P09:59
xiangfuthere is a 'load_videoin_config()' in stop_callback.10:00
lekernelhm, true. sorry, missed it10:01
lekernelxiangfu: sounds OK except it probably needs another set_config() when you click one of the format buttons10:03
lekernelotherwise it'll revert to the old format when clicking the preview button10:03
xiangfuoh. yes10:05
lekernelthat's what I meant with "Does not take format changes into account"10:06
GitHub96[flickernoise] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/-oG0ig10:09
GitHub96[flickernoise/master] Video in: fix the full screen sync with settings - Xiangfu Liu10:09
xiangfushould be ok this time.10:09
lekernelwolfspraul: when you do this R4 run, please send me one of those boards right away before letting them all through SMT... I need to check that I can still run the SDRAM at 166MHz10:12
lekernelmaybe I'll have easily usable test software by then though10:12
wolfspraulas I said a few times already, I am planning a small run first, 6 or 8 board10:12
wolfspraulthere are too many changes and we need to verify a little10:13
wolfspraulwhat do you think might affect sdram negatively? anything we should do in advance?10:13
lekernelwith all the extra connected FPGA pins, I would be surprised if all the SDRAM routes were kept as is10:13
lekernelthat would be the less risky option though ...10:14
wolfspraulok, will take extra care of that10:14
lekernelthat's why I'm trying to argue for the less extra FPGA pins = the better10:14
lekernelso no DDC diagnostic signals etc.10:14
wolfspraulwe already agree on those10:15
wolfspraulmemory performance is far more important than some small goodies10:15
lekernelwolfspraul: btw only 15 M1s left in stock now?10:16
lekernelor 23 ?10:17
wolfspraulI am not counting every day10:17
wolfspraulbut yes, I owe you an answer on your last mail, queued...10:17
wolfspraulI think it's around 1510:17
lekernelha, great!10:18
lekernelxiangfu: thanks for fixing the video-in preview. I'll send new web-updates today...10:22
xiangfulekernel, great. :)10:22
xiangfuI am working on fix: 'killing the Performance (compilation progress) window doesn't stop compilation.'10:24
xiangfunot sure if I can finish it soon.10:24
xiangfucompare to the patch editor bugs. this one is more simple :P10:24
lekernelxiangfu: just disable the close button when it's compiling... aborting the compiler cleanly and without bugs can be messy10:27
xiangfulekernel, I disable all the buttons http://pastebin.com/kiMZukJu10:47
GitHub50[flickernoise] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/eMS8mg10:55
GitHub50[flickernoise/master] performance: disable all button while compiling patches - Xiangfu Liu10:55
xiangfufor now the OSD can disaply two lines strings. how I can make it display more lines?11:17
Fallenou15 M1 left ? how many in this run ?12:44
wpwrakrc3 run ? or r4 ?12:49
wolfspraulthis run?12:50
wolfspraulthere were 3 runs so far12:50
wolfspraulfirst run, 6 pc, all with major issues, none sold12:50
wolfspraulsecond run, 40 pc, about 31-33 were 100% good and sold, and the remaining ones were used up in various development/testing/design efforts12:50
wolfspraulthird run, 90pc, 88 good, 8 bare boards all sold, about 65 of the other 80 full kits sold so far12:51
wolfspraulthat's all :-)12:51
Fallenouwow ok :)12:52
Fallenouso 15 left, over those 88 + 40 + 6 ?12:53
Fallenouthat's great isn't it ?12:53
Fallenoustrange we didn't get more emails on the mailing list12:53
wolfspraulyeah but we don't have real great user demand yet12:53
wolfspraulno, not strange12:53
wolfspraulthe sales are all, one by one, after massive convincing ;-)12:53
wolfsprauljust think about how you got yours :-)12:54
Fallenouhehe yep12:54
Fallenoubut when you get one, you MUST have questions12:54
wolfspraulfor this thing to take off, our current customers have to really love the box, and recommend to their friends12:54
Fallenouabout how to use it, etc12:54
Fallenouso it's really strange that we don't get more support request12:54
wolfspraulthat is not happening yet, but we get there12:54
lekernelwolfspraul: didn't the CDM article help?12:54
wolfspraulno, not strange to me12:55
wolfspraulcdm? you mean peter kirn?12:55
wolfsprauldefinitely, yes12:55
lekernelit sold all the small amazon stock in one day ...12:55
Fallenouwolfspraul: I'm showing it. at work, in an association, I make pictures tweets etc ;)12:55
wolfspraultoo bad it ran out of stock12:55
Fallenouto friends colleagues12:55
wolfsprauleventually this thing will take off12:55
Fallenouand they usually love the thing12:55
wolfspraulI am 100% sure12:55
wolfspraulFallenou: thanks a lot!12:55
FallenouI've seen a nice dmx moroted spot light on a milkymist video12:56
Fallenouhow much does it cost ? :o12:56
wolfspraulthe DMX items xiangfu bought were cheap, about 300 USD12:57
wolfspraulbut they are also very limited12:57
Fallenouhum ok , cheap for a spot12:57
Fallenoubut not that cheap :p12:57
wolfspraulI don't think there's a motor-driven spotlight among them12:57
Fallenouanyway, I have played enough with it all the week, I need to focus on mmu now :p12:57
Fallenounot buy new toys12:57
wolfspraulsure, but those are good things that won't go away12:58
wolfspraulthat's why I think we can invite people to milkymist today wholeheartedly12:58
FallenouI am definitely not a VJ or DJ12:58
Fallenouand I was able to do nice things with very few efforts12:59
wolfspraulbut in parallel we need to work on making the m1 experience out of the box so great that people really get hooked, tell their friends, etc.12:59
wolfspraulFallenou: maybe you are exceptionally talented :-)12:59
Fallenouahah no I don't think so :p12:59
Fallenouabout the user experience, I can just say that any non-geek which does not care about fpga or low level stuff would say that the GUI is "slow"13:00
Fallenoumeaning that if you drag windows it's kind of slow13:00
wpwraksome people will never be happy :)13:00
Fallenoupersonnally I don't care that much and I am more amazed about the fact that all of this runs on an FPGA, but a lambda user won't care about the FPGA miracle13:00
wolfspraulthe render mode hopefully gets so good one day that most people will never need to go into the GUI13:00
Fallenouyep rendering mode works well and no lag :)13:01
lekernelfunny, 1st time I hear the GUI is slow. a lot of people find it fast :p13:01
wpwrakwolfspraul: hmm, the end of "no PC needed" ?13:01
Fallenoureally ?13:01
Fallenouwhen dragging a window over ?13:01
lekerneland I think it is, except for moving windows as you pointed out13:01
Fallenouoh yes13:01
Fallenouexcept that, when you click on buttons etc yes it's fast13:01
Fallenoufile browsing, mouse wheel scrolling , it's all fast13:01
lekernelmajor software redesign should have a compositing GUI13:01
lekernelbut here I just took existing code and compiled it13:02
lekernelthere's no reason we can't have iOS-like interaction on the MM architecture13:02
wolfspraulSebastien cannot work on everything, we will get more people to join.13:02
lekernelit's definitely capable of this13:02
FallenouI guess it's a pretty good result when you take the amount of time it took to have such GUI ?13:02
lekernel(and more :)13:03
Fallenouone thing at a time anyway :)13:03
Fallenoujust my feeling13:03
Fallenouoh and 3 usb ports would be awesome :'13:04
Fallenouto have keybord+mouse+midi13:04
Fallenou(midi usb)13:04
Fallenoubut I've heard it's already planned13:04
wolfspraulyou can try a wireless keyboard+mouse combo13:04
wolfspraulthat will only occupy 1 USB port13:04
wpwrakFallenou: M1r4 will have 4 external ports :)13:04
Fallenouyeah !13:04
Fallenouvery nice13:04
wolfspraulor one of those rii mini keyboards with integrated touchpad13:05
Fallenouwolfspraul: yes I don't have this kind of combo but it's a nice idea13:05
wolfspraulyou can look at amazon for 'logitech wireless combo'13:08
lekernelspeaking of the GUI, how about writing all the high level UI logic code in Lua?13:08
wolfsprauland actually they may be at pretty much any store around you, quite cheap13:08
lekerneland use its object model to take care of widgets hierarchies etc.13:08
lekernelthen rendering in C with some hardware acceleration13:08
wolfspraulabout 20 USD13:08
wolfspraulthe tiny rii remotes should come out at about 30 EUR or so, in Europe13:09
lekernelall the pesky things like manipulating strings for filenames can be done better in Lua13:09
rohwolfspraul: if you need a small number of cases just holler. i'll work something out13:09
wolfspraulgreat, thanks!13:09
wolfspraulnot there yet, we are in the depth of design improvement right now ;-)13:10
rohfor the rest of your rc3 boards. i think i also have 2 already around. in uv-red and the violett we had before13:10
wolfspraulincluding driving a few new requirements into mechanical, connector changes, new hole in bottom, etc.13:10
wolfspraulnice. we can use those old parts, no worries13:10
rohsure. n.p. was just thinking for the rest of the rc3 boards. or do you still have enough cases?13:10
wolfspraulI am also buying back some rc2 boards for upgrades, and so on13:10
rohah. i think i also got a rc2.13:11
wolfspraulthose one-off things need to be dealt with economically, so we have to wait for a good opportunity13:11
wolfspraulI can send you an early r4 and a design fee to update the files... one by one.13:12
rohsure. more a question of shipping opportunities or so13:14
Fallenou14:13 < wolfspraul> you can look at amazon for 'logitech wireless combo' < ok thanks for the reference, I will check this out :)13:23
wolfspraulalso 'rii remote', same concept but much smaller13:23
wolfspraulgo for the rii if you want something to use at an event/party/etc., during rendering13:23
wolfspraulgo for the logitech wireless combo if you are in the gui a lot, editing patches13:24
wolfspraulkeyboard is bigger, separate mouse13:24
Fallenouhum yep I like the separate mouse13:24
Fallenouand I don't plan on doing much parties :p13:24
Fallenouor maybe one big but next year ^^13:25
Fallenoulike this one http://www.logitech.com/fr-fr/keyboards/keyboard-mice-combos/devices/7305 ?13:28
wolfspraulyes, like that one13:42
wolfspraulthat's a big keyboard, I got a smaller one MK120 or 2xx or so13:42
wolfspraulcan't find now exactly because ... I gave it to xiangfu to fix some m1 bugs :-)13:42
wolfspraulbut yes, that's what I mean13:43
wolfspraulsome (small by now) bugs aside, those things will work very well with m113:43
wolfspraulMK120, that's what I got13:45
wolfspraula little smaller, but full-size keyboard still13:46
wolfsprauland mouse, and uses only 1 USB dongle for both13:46
wolfspraulhere it is, finally http://www.logitech.com/fr-fr/for-business/products/keyboard-mice-combos/devices/945613:55
wolfspraul20 EUR for both, 1 USB dongle13:55
Fallenouhttp://oshug.org/event/17 troll troll14:46
lekernelhe :) let's stop trolling. as I said, I'm not opposed to using OpenRISC on the basis that it technically becomes as good as LM32, which it simply isn't today.14:48
kristianpaulporting a simple (newlib) library to the board !16:53
kristianpaulThats good16:53
kristianpaulI need that for milkymist ;)16:53
kristianpaullibgloss ah17:02
kristianpaulhmm lm32 have one already17:03
kristianpaulalso moxie, wow !17:03
kristianpaulantgreen: :)17:03
antgreenwoooooo!  go moxie :)   slowest project e v e r !17:08
lekernelwpwrak: does the pacman patch still work for you?19:51
lekernelhmm... works after a reboot... nice non-reproductible problem like we all love19:59
wpwraklekernel: it's pretty tricky. even very innocent changes to the usb fw can radically change how it behaves. it sometimes feels as if there was a switch (cpu_cycles % SOME_SMALL_NUMBER) { case 0: almost_work; case 1: crash_horribly; case 2: do_something_weird; ... }21:58
wpwraki just hope there's not really such a a clock cycle dependency ...21:59
wpwrakat least the new debug stuff under FN lets me see more clearly just how weitd it is :)22:03
wpwrakwell, eventually, i'll figure it out. i just wish those bugs would finally learn that resistance only prolongs their suffering :)22:09
wpwrakhmm, do we have a sort of official prefix for environment variables for things related to M1 on the host ? in tools/asm/pfpu, I used M1_HOST, M1_USER, and M1_PW. do they sound good ? (i'm getting tired of typing in passwords :-)22:35
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