#milkymist IRC log for Friday, 2012-02-10

wolfspraulif they are a conservative outfit, they will first have to have an internal meeting about this 'milkymist group'00:03
wolfsprauland that will be more like grandpa trying to understand grandson's hiphop than anything else00:04
wolfspraulso I just wait and see :-)00:05
wpwrakyeah, could be a generation issue. who knows :)00:05
wpwrakwolfspraul: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/johnathan-mantey/4/54/19200:07
wpwrakwhatever that means :)00:08
wolfspraulah you do the spy thing :-)00:08
wpwrakthe transparency thing ;-)00:08
wolfspraullooks like an engineering manager, and at lattice only 2.5 years00:09
wolfspraullemme find my linkedin account ;-)00:10
wolfspraulgotta reach out on all channels00:10
wolfspraulnice, 12 invitations queued up. don't we like to be loved...00:12
wolfspraulnow I can just click 'accept' on all of them and feel happier - thank you linkedin!00:13
wpwraksomeone should make an antisocial networking site ... "You have 0 friends." ...00:17
wolfspraulmessage sent, let's see00:22
wolfspraulah, he just wrote on the list again00:22
wolfspraul"discussion with the uP team"00:24
wpwrakthat sounds pretty good00:24
wolfsprauluP = ?00:24
wpwrakmicroprocessor00:25
wpwraki.e., lm32 and whatever else they may have or do00:25
wolfspraulyeah. too bad we know so little.00:25
wpwraklooks good. we got the attention of them :) now he can talk to people who can actually do something about the issues00:26
wpwrakinteresting. seem that i got myself a soc regression :-(00:38
wpwrakah well. something to fix later00:39
wpwrakhmm. i update FN and the soc regresses ? strange things are happening ... the funny thing is that the regressions actually make the patch look nice :)01:05
cladamwagood morning01:26
wolfspraulgood morning01:27
wolfspraulI can't think of anything better to work on than Milkymist :-)01:27
wolfspraulmaybe I should go see a doctor...01:28
wpwrakis wolfgang's water supply downstream from a techno club, with massive consumption of ecstasy ? :)01:29
wolfspraulI'm actually listening to more music during work again now, which is wonderful01:31
wolfspraulI used to do that when my hair wasn't grey yet01:31
wpwrak;-))01:31
wolfspraulcladamwa: how's R4 going?01:32
wpwraki have music running pretty much all the time. helps to focus.01:32
wolfsprauloh wait, I finally want to send the small HDMI snippets from William to the list...01:32
wolfspraulnothing major, but then it's out01:32
cladamwawolfspraul, need to confirm Q4 circuit & audio again then start to see insertion/detection.01:33
wolfspraulok01:35
wolfspraulI'm always concerned when I read something like "we are adding protection everywhere" from Sebastien01:35
cladamwawpwrak, have you seen lastest R4 for Q4 fet?01:35
wolfspraulare we? is our design still simple and easy and cheap?01:35
wolfspraulrisk is beautiful01:35
wolfspraul:-)01:35
wolfspraultake risk, enjoy life01:36
cladamwawe added protections on external usbs/audio/ now trying to add in DVI-I's +5V precaution, etc. ;-)01:36
wolfspraulI cannot and don't want to comment on the technical reasoning for adding it or not.01:37
wolfspraulI can just express that I hope we are not driven by fear and 'protecting everything'01:37
wolfspraulwe cannot protect everything...01:37
wolfspraulbut if we are fixing loose ends now that are clearly not good and were skipped in the intial design rush, then great01:38
wolfspraulcladamwa: you and Werner have to decide :-)01:38
wpwrakfet fet ... looking ...01:39
cladamwawe've known consumer products equipped with each details EMC solutions in design, then DNP them in MP. don't they ? ha..at least i've seen many. especially phone industry, lies everywhere though.01:39
wolfspraulmaking a good product is hard01:40
wolfspraulsaying no is the hardest01:40
cladamwasure, he, we do our things not related to others. ;-)01:40
wolfspraulI'm not blaming others for 'lies', we just try our best ourselves01:40
wpwrakyeah, if my guesses of how these critters work are right, then this is good01:40
wolfspraulI fully trust you guys, I just read Sebastien's "protection everywhere" comment and remember how much I trust you ;-)01:41
cladamwawolfspraul, you're right. though. do you remember that we were at SZ, you bought many sch in marketing ?01:41
wolfspraulsure01:41
cladamwai loved those stuffs/sch.01:41
wpwrakwolfspraul: well, R143 deserves some consideration. if that one gets shorted to ground, it would simply overhead and go up in flames (unless we harden it)01:42
wpwraks/overhead/overheat/01:42
wpwraki use a very similar design to ignite fireworks ;-)01:42
cladamwai've seen every IO path equipped with all protections, but eventaully not very parts will be monuted. ;-)01:42
cladamwawpwrak, is that Q4 fet okay from Sebastien suggegsted ?01:43
kristianpaulwolfspraul: do with a M1.., a satellite DBV-S receiver... well just ideas :)01:44
cladamwawpwrak, protection using purely resistance seems not very good to solve completely.01:44
wolfspraulkristianpaul: hey. not just satellite - *everything*!01:44
Action: kristianpaul imagines droping osmo-sdr MCU with a milkymist soc01:46
wpwrakcladamwa: Q4 looks good to me01:51
wpwrakcladamwa: R143 yeah. i've connected a 47 Ohm to 5 V and let it cook for a while. temperature is about 90 C.01:53
wpwrakshould try a 0603 or 0402. watch it burn :)01:54
cladamwawpwrak, okay. btw, i tried to understand why R232 to be 10K ohm. Does this mean that R143/ 47 ohm in series with R232/10 K ohm, so as voltage picked up on HPD pin is rough 4.98V (i.e. let R232 >> R143) ?01:55
cladamwawpwrak, when determining a voltage divider, you concern in such way as possible, right ?01:56
cladamwayour R143 may go up in flames when a 0402. ;-)01:57
wpwrakat 0603 it unsolders itself :)02:00
wpwrak(R232) it's just that you don't need a strong pull-down there. do we know the drive strength of the screen when driving HPD ?02:01
cladamwawpwrak, we probably don't know drive strength from screen side. but we're using fet so that letting fet work is much more determined by voltage not current.02:03
cladamwaalso Q4 fet is not transistor, but yes, now we considering R143 consumption.02:04
cladamwacurrent R143 yes, hard to soldering a 0603. :)02:04
wpwrak(drive strength) yes, the FET needs almost nothing. but the R232 does.02:05
wpwrak0603 gets 95 C according to my thermometer. but it's probably quite a bit more.02:06
cladamwawpwrak, let's see page 19 of http://www.ddwg.org/lib/dvi_10.pdf02:08
cladamwamaybe have good answer on current. ;-)02:08
wpwrak0402 also desolders itself :) doesn't burn, though02:11
wpwrakkinda disappointing02:12
wpwrakwell, for my fireworks, i burn something like 20 W in the resistors ...02:13
cladamwawow 20W02:15
wpwrak... for about one second ;-)02:17
cladamwai am thinking that now why we need a R143 ? shall we really need it ?02:19
cladamwaif no R143, how's going to be impacted ?02:19
cladamwasee this http://www.compon-tech.cn/Product%20EMC%20design/DVI%20EMC%20design.pdf02:19
cladamwait's even without a resistor there, but just a bead connected.02:20
wpwrakso the bead will burn ;-))02:21
cladamwaha~02:21
wpwrakhmm, your DDWG document says that we must be able to provide at least 55 mA02:21
cladamwanow we're worry HPD to connect gnd to avoid, right? how about PTC again?02:22
wpwrakthrough 47 Ohm, that would result in a "5 V" supply of 2.4 V02:22
wpwrakptc are pricy but besides that, i have nothing against them02:23
wpwrakat least they won't overheat ;-))02:23
cladamwawow. there's expected 2.585V at least on R142 when 55 mA02:23
wpwrakyup02:24
cladamwas/R142/R14302:24
cladamwaman~ i like PTC but painful in price.02:24
wpwrakcould a BJT do the job of acting as current limiter ?02:27
cladamwayup, on page 15, monitor draw <= 50 mA, and supply must be min. 55mA,02:27
cladamwayou want BJT?02:27
wpwrakmay be cheaper than PTC02:28
wpwrak(and considerably easier to source :)02:29
cladamwayes, but why not FET again: a FET (~ usd 0.018) v.s. PTC(~usd 0.484) ?02:30
cladamwaman~ i always want to use same p/n if we already have it. hehe... ;-)02:31
cladamwaalright, let's surf a current limiter first.02:31
wpwrak(FET) because BJTs are current-controlled but FETs aren't ? :)02:32
wpwraksomething like this: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects-designs-and-technical-stuff/simple-current-limiter/02:32
cladamwasure, FET it is. but with one or two resistor can do current limiter too.02:32
wpwrakok. yo know a lot more about FETs than i do :)02:33
cladamwahttp://www.vishay.com/docs/70596/70596.pdf02:37
wpwrak"if anyone on the Milkymist team has an oscilloscope" sigh ...02:38
cladamwano, your knowledge base is much powerfull. ;-)02:38
wpwrakwhere's a generous investor when you need one ? ...02:38
wpwrak(knowledge) naw, i really don't know much about FETs. need to look at them again. when i tried to figure out how they work, all i came up with is that they don't (needed much larger voltages that we have in modern digital circuits). so there's a bit of a gap between my theory and practice :)02:40
wpwrak(AN103) hmm, they all seem to be low-side limiters. we need high-side.02:41
wpwrakbut maybe that's a trivial conversion ?02:42
cladamwastill surfing now... ;-)02:45
wpwrakVgs = 2.1 V -> Rs = Vgs/Id = 2.1 V/0.05 A = 42 Ohm. that looks familiar :)02:50
cladamwa:) you are right.02:52
cladamwawpwrak, seems this time I need to do this experiment on my site here to see if 2N7002MTF can limit it. :)02:57
wpwrakyeah :)02:59
cladamwa2N7002 is continous on 115mA @ 25 C, 73mA @ 100 C, this should be okay. but Rs is still need 105mW03:01
cladamwawpwrak, finally i knew what you meant that ..."if anyone on the Milkymist team has an oscilloscope" sigh ... ;-)03:08
cladamwawolfspraul, another real example did successfully on TMDS directly connection to xilinx. confidence goes up. ;-)03:11
wolfspraulgood03:11
wolfspraulhe did *a lot* of hdmi/dvi work03:11
wolfsprauland is waiting for an R4 to help us even more, which is wonderful :-)03:11
cladamwahe could publicly more activities though, but thanks him surely. ;-)03:12
kristianpaulhmmm, just wondering if lattice is/already targeret the portable devices market03:13
kristianpaulit tought iglo was small, but thise ecp3 from lattice looks quite interesting03:13
wolfspraulwhat is iglo and ecp3?03:16
kristianpauliglo is a fpga familly from actel03:17
kristianpaulsmall packaging, jsut imagine a fpga could fit on the nanonote board .)03:18
kristianpauland ecp3 seems is a lattice fpga that seems to have also small footprint03:18
kristianpaulhttp://www.latticesemi.com/products/fpga/ecp3/ecp3minidevices.cfm03:18
kristianpauljust thinking... if we really want to have a fpga based mobile device. well...03:20
wolfsprauls-6 fits on a nanonote-size board easily I think03:20
kristianpaulperhaps03:20
kristianpaulso the only un explored field will be power consuption03:22
wpwrakcladamwa: here's a BJT variant: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/tmp/r142.pdf03:24
cladamwawpwrak, great. you simulated. ;-D03:28
wpwrakcladamwa: of course, what's not so nice there is that it burns ~300 mW in case of a short03:28
cladamwawpwrak, btw, i also have seen a nice article: http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/files/MotorolaAN1542.pdf03:28
cladamwasee figure. 4 in page 8. ;-)03:29
cladamwawpwrak, yeah. i also need to calculate later. :)03:31
wpwrakqucs is your friend :)03:32
kristianpaulargh, no again my system get mess after i plug a second jtag-pod03:36
kristianpaulnot same time !03:36
kristianpauljust another one..03:36
Action: kristianpaul brings the laptop03:37
kristianpaulwith mess i mean flterm/gtkterm just show garbage, uart is unhappy..03:37
wpwrakstrange03:38
wpwrakthat shouldn't happe03:38
wpwrakn03:38
wpwrakyou should just get a /dev/ttyUSB1, i guess03:38
kristianpauli did:03:38
kristianpaul1. plug jtag-pod-a check flterm all ok03:39
kristianpaul2. un-plug jtag-pod-a03:39
kristianpaul3. plug jtag-pod-b check flterm, got garbage03:39
wpwrakah, unplugging jtag-pod-a may have done that. perhaps insufficient error checking in flterm03:40
kristianpaulhmm03:40
kristianpaulbut also gtkterm shows garbage03:40
xiangfukristianpaul, you doing that with m1 power-on?03:41
kristianpaulxiangfu: yes03:41
kristianpaulas always03:41
xiangfukristianpaul, that is dangerous03:41
kristianpaulbut i do powerdown and poweron just in case03:41
kristianpaulxiangfu: why? :-)03:41
Action: kristianpaul like danger03:41
xiangfukristianpaul, I remember in the IRC. have talk about this once time.03:42
kristianpaulha i jsut did some rmmod modprobe and problem went away :)03:42
xiangfuthe jtag-pod is not design for hotplug03:42
wolfspra1lxiangfu fried a jtag-serial board recently03:42
wpwrakah .. "un-plug jtag-pod-a" .. that's the USB or the M1 side ?03:42
kristianpaulxiangfu: i dint hot pluged it03:42
wolfspra1land was more than happy/lucky that the m1 was not fried as well :-)03:42
kristianpaulfried, ouch..03:42
wpwrakbarbecue M1, yumm ....03:42
xiangfuyes. m1 still fine. but I broken the jtag board03:43
kristianpaulah, well you asume jtag-pod-b belongs to another M1 board too ;)03:43
kristianpaulsorry i was not clear03:43
xiangfukristianpaul, . "un-plug jtag-pod-a" .. that's the USB or the M1 side ?03:43
kristianpaulxiangfu: yes i just touch usb cable for unplug/plug03:44
kristianpaulusbserial and ftdi_sio was all i rmmod/modprobe problem solved !03:44
kristianpaulhttp://devbisme.webfactional.com/blogs/devbisme/2011/12/08/big-ugly-pig-bring-phase-104:06
lekernelwpwrak: (55mA) so what about connecting the DDC pin directly to 5V? after all, there's already the input PTC08:01
lekernelthis xula board is cute. though I'd like to see DDR2/DDR3 (which is cheaper than SDR anyway)08:02
xiangfulekernel, I am test the William's patch on libbase/uart.c08:12
xiangfuI have a question: why we needs such code:08:13
xiangfu        unsigned int stat = CSR_UART_STAT;08:13
xiangfu       CSR_UART_STAT = stat;08:13
lekernelbecause if the UART sends a TX interrupt too fast after RXTX is written, the CPU would reach CSR_UART_STAT = stat; after the UART has sent that TX interrupt and lose it08:23
lekernelthis won't happen with the original MM UART because it only sends the TX interrupt after the character has been transmitted on the line, which is plenty of time for the CPU08:23
xiangfulekernel, thanks. I will commit the code from email "Improvement for libbase - uart.c' by William08:35
GitHub182[milkymist] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/milkymist/commit/832e989a21fd86ba16f1e238b280294bee39256408:38
GitHub182[milkymist/master] improvement for libbase uart.c - William08:38
Action: xiangfu switch back to rc3 to test these midi controller. 09:24
xiangfuok. now I can sure we have regression on MIDI stuff.09:30
lekernelxiangfu_: what sorts of regressions?09:32
lekernelbecause of your USB HID patch?09:32
xiangfu_<xiangfu> the 'Latest active controller' give nothing. whatever press on LV3.09:32
xiangfu_<xiangfu> but RC3 do give some values.09:32
xiangfu_<xiangfu> like "7 (0)". when I switch to channel 8. and move the FX1 under lv3. it also give values uner RC3 images.09:32
xiangfu_<xiangfu> but nothing when I use the latest daily build.09:32
xiangfu_<xiangfu> oh. another thing is . my connection is like : LV3 ----> laptop ----> usb-midi-convert ----> m109:32
xiangfu_lekernel, no. I use the MIDI port.09:33
xiangfu_my connection is like : LV3 ----> laptop ----> usb-midi-convert ----> m1's MIDI port09:33
xiangfu_under RC3 image : works fine. the 'Latest active controller' do give values09:34
xiangfu_under recently build: the 'Latest active controller' give nothing.09:34
xiangfu_great. I have midi2osc that can dump all midi message. :)09:38
xiangfu_http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/tmp/qjackctrl-midi2osc-connection.png09:44
xiangfu_wpwrak_, is the DX2 work out of box? I try to connect the DX2 with the usb midi converter to my laptop. then connect it to midi2osc.10:22
xiangfu_what even I press. nothing output under midi2osc. :(10:22
xiangfu_I connect the LV3 output to DX2 MIDI in. when press on LV3. the DX2 led(sys/mon) blinks10:24
qi-botThe Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-20120210-0952/10:40
xiangfu_hmm... whateven I do the DX2 just not working. :(10:57
xiangfu_s/whateven/whatever10:57
peterkirnHi Milkymisters  finally writing up a proper look at the milkymist for createdigitalmotion.com. I wondered, is there any sort of canonical summary of what the MM hardware is built on, that is, the FPGA engineering aspect?12:06
wolfspraulhi Peter, nice to see you here12:08
wolfspraulcanonical summary, hmm12:09
wpwrak_lekernel: (55 mA) hmm, that may still burn the connector. that DVI specicication adam found specifies a contact rating of 1.5 A.12:09
wolfspraulyou mean what an fpga is, why it's well suited to deliver high audio and video performance?12:10
wolfspraulbut then there's a lot of high-end chips on m1, and what holds it together is the Milkymist software12:11
lekernelhi peterkirn, nice to see you here!12:11
wpwrak_xiangfu's qjackctl setup looks scary ;-)12:11
wolfspraul(with 'software' I mean including the SoC soft-design)12:12
lekernelwhat's inside of the FPGA is described http://milkymist.org/thesis/thesis.pdf p. 21 - there have been some slight changes since then, but that's basically it12:12
wolfspraulcomputers built around fpgas are sometimes called 'reconfigurable computers'12:13
lekerneland the device specs are on http://milkymist.org/wp/for-developers/12:13
lekernel(device = board etc.)12:13
peterkirn@wolfspraul: exactly. why use an FPGA for milkymist, in terms of performance, why it might be especially applicable to open source hardware, and how the mm pulls it together. But maybe that's even an entirely different article, it occurs to me. I'll certainly link to that thesis and specs!12:13
wolfspraulto express that there is a deeper layer of 'configurability' (=performance) that an fpga can reach and expose, that a non-fpga microprocessor cannot12:13
peterkirnheh, oops, temporarily forgot I was on irc& start speaking twitter/facebook/google+ like all these crazy kids...12:14
peterkirnYes, and I do point that out. I think deep configurability is the soul of the project.12:14
wolfspraulyes12:15
wolfspraulwith software we take it for granted that things are 'configurable', because software can be programmed at will12:15
wolfspraulbut when you try to do something innovative with audio or video, you will very quickly run into limitations of even your latest quad-core Intel computer12:15
wolfspraulsay something as 'simple' as separating and processing audio signals for a multi-speaker configuration12:16
wolfspraulif you want to filter a bit, or send some signals a few milliseconds earlier or later12:16
wolfspraul(to some speakers)12:16
wolfsprauldon't even try with your notebook :-)12:16
wolfspraulbut for an fpga that is possible because the reconfigurability (programmability) reaches deeper into signal processing, audio and video signals serving as a good example12:17
wolfspraullekernel: is this accurate?12:17
wolfspraulI am trying to put these things in words so hopefully it helps peter, or myself, or others :-)12:18
wolfspraulsometimes it's important to spend some time explaining what it is we do...12:18
wpwrak_wolfspraul: speaking of reconfigurability, in the hypothetical monthly news, the LED array could serve as a simple example for the benefits of having an fpga. in our case, it was a day's work to add a multi-channel PWM with matrix controller that takes care of all the work "in hardware".12:18
wolfspraulwpwrak_: ah, you can also comment on whether you think my attempts at a more high-level explanation are still accurate or not...12:19
lekernelwolfspraul: well, actually I think you can do this delay using a notebook soundcard, since they should support sample-accurate synchronized channels *g*12:19
wpwrak_wolfspraul: that's functionality nobody foresaw in the original design. in a more traditional setting, you'd have to solve it in software. which means hammering the CPU with interrupts at > 10 kHz. not pretty, if it works at all.12:20
wolfspraulah yes sure :) I just try to give examples...12:20
wpwrak_wolfspraul: (interrupts) or build more complex external hardware, e.g., with a dedicated controller, its firmware, etc.12:20
lekernelbut generally, yes, that's the idea - have software tightly integrated with the hardware, so that the system has very low latency12:21
wolfspraulif a 1ghz cpu processes an audio signal, let's say at a simple 44khz, that's 'only' about 20,000 machine level instructions per sample, and the entire CPU is busy12:22
lekernelanother advantage of the FPGA (which we aren't exploiting a lot at the moment, since GPU's can also do texture mapping etc.) is you can have fully custom compute-intensive algorithms12:22
wolfspraulso if you want to process multiple signals, mix, merge or manipulate them in real-time, and you have a bunch of flexible software running to accomplish that, you quickly run out of power12:22
peterkirnNo, that seems fair. I think people will make the comparison to the GPU, but the ability to switch a device on and have access to this immediately is a big deal from an end user / coder-scripter perspective.12:22
peterkirnYes, I'll leave going into the precise details on why this can have a performance benefit for another time, but should at least be able to provide a big picture.12:23
wolfspraulcomparison to gpu is fair12:23
lekerneland of course... all integrated, small, low power consumption, reconfigurable, open source at the HDL level12:23
wolfspraulyes, the entire Milkymist One runs at ca. 5W12:23
wolfspraulI think it's fair that people compare with notebooks and say we can do all this and 100 times more with a macbook pro and quartz composer/resolume, etc.12:24
wpwrak_perhaps we could say it's like a GPU (i.e., dedicated and optimized hardware) but with the flexibility to try new things. so if we can think of, say, some new video effect, we can add it with little effort. plus, we can upgrade all units in the field.12:25
wolfspraulthe Milkymist One today can only do a few things, but they are implemented in an *entirely* different way than that notebook+vj software setup, creating the promise of more different things to come in the future12:25
wolfspraulpeople always like 'different' (in reality few do ;-)), and the Milkymist One really is about as different from a notebook+vj software as can be :-)12:26
peterkirnWell, the biggest problem with the computer is that we don't have a simple mixer on the market that has, say, an analog input (connected to the MM) and a couple of HDMI or DVI ins (for your MBP) ;) But that's another conversation.12:26
peterkirnI imagine a lot of us would love to use both. We just have to make that affordable mixer happpen...12:26
wolfspraulso the few that actually do appreciate innovation, should be interested in diving into Milkymist land and trying to understand what's going on12:26
wolfspraulthat's a fair angle imo12:26
lekernelwolfspraul: I think you're underestimating it. especially after we'll have added support for small video loops with FFMPEG.12:26
peterkirnOh, I can see it being practical even without having to have it be different for the sake of it, but you'll see my angle, and then I'm sure the discussion will continue after that.12:26
wpwrak_there are two effects: a) if lowers our barrier of entry. we can do things companies like nvidia do, but without needing their budget to roll out new chips, etc. b) it also makes the units in the field more long-lived, since they can be upgraded12:26
wolfspraullekernel: one by one. I am trying to break this down to a 'fair' level where a reporter/journalist can feel comfortable.12:26
wolfspraulnot for the sake of it12:27
peterkirnI'm going to lunch, but continue to discuss. ;)12:27
wolfspraulthere is a point, but it's not as immediately obvious yet as say the swoosh effect on an iPad12:27
wolfsprauldefinitely not different for the sake of it12:27
wpwrak_(like nvidia) of course, we don't have the same raw processing power. there are limits :)12:27
wolfspraulnone of the people driving Milkymist forward are that superficial12:27
peterkirnright, but we can at least say there would be a significant investment of money and time before you matched the milkymist on latency. there's not an instant-on solution.12:28
peterkirnI wouldn't underestimate the interest of folks like me who would play with both, again, which is why I'm still jonesing for that mixer& ;)12:28
wolfspraulyes, both - agree12:28
wolfspraulinstant-on, definitely12:28
wolfsprauland that's another aspect we hopefully keep improving12:28
wolfspraulthe m1 should make vj'ing or playing with visuals as easy as nowhere else12:29
wolfspraulbut I think it's 'should' today, not there yet12:29
peterkirnI didn't expect to be successful, but I did go on a failed mission to find a VGA - composite converter yesterday, since now I'm stuck with a MBP that, at best, I can only get to DB15.12:29
wolfspraul(I'm conservative again, lekernel probably thinks it is already :-))12:29
peterkirnand yes, you can plug a milkymist into a V4& ;)12:29
wolfspraulah too bad. we have some tentative plans on including such a converter cable in the box.12:30
peterkirn(if anyone knows where to find such a thing in berlin between today and & uh, tomorrow & I'm all ears!)12:30
peterkirnha  good idea.12:30
lekernelpeterkirn: I have one (which I actually used with a V4 ;), can lend it to you if you want12:30
wolfspraulI sourced a few and have one myself, and Sebastien has one. but the fpga doesn't support it yet :-) :-)12:30
peterkirnlekernel: really? okay. ;) I'm eager to try it out; I haven't used one yet.12:30
wolfspraullekernel: is this working now? vga->composite adapter cable?12:30
peterkirnokay, late for a lunch meeting but back soon to finish this up!12:30
lekernelwolfspraul: we're talking about a different thing here. the thing that the FPGA doesn't support is the passive adapter, but scanconverters work just fine.12:31
peterkirn(no reason a db15 > composite shouldn't work. when I have more time, I should try to make one&)12:31
wolfspraulah ok12:31
wolfspraulthat's a good small example of reconfigurability :-)12:31
wolfsprauleven though m1 currently does not support it - yet12:31
lekernelpeterkirn: we're also thinking about supporting "dumb" cables, eg connect the red channel of VGA to the composite signal, and the FPGA does some DSP to generate a proper signal12:31
lekernelpeterkirn: at the moment there's a proof of concept that displays a checkerboard pattern, but it's not integrated in the SoC (no framebuffer etc.)12:32
wolfspraulbtw, advance notice: I found a projector that consistently refuses to display the m1's vga signal saying "unknown signal"12:32
wolfspraulmore about that soon12:32
wolfspraul(for peterkirn - that's a bug we have been hunting for a while...)12:33
wolfspraulthe projector displays from a notebook just fine12:33
wolfspraulbut from m1 - all black12:33
wolfspraulxiangfu will have that projector on his desk in a few days...12:34
wpwrak_that'll be interesting to hunt down12:52
wolfspraulpeterkirn: in whatever article or blost post you write, if you want to mention where Milkymist was used before, one event where I have all data is from 8static in Philadelphia13:06
wpwrak_GRRR. the patch editor chokes in double quotes in the file !@*%#$!13:06
wpwrak_s/in/on/13:06
wolfspraulthat was the group Cheap Dinosaurs [cheapdinosaurs.com] with visuals by no carrier [no-carrier.com] at 8static on November 11, 2011 [8static.com]. video is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcO3qslAmTo13:07
wpwrak_and i was wondering how the heck i would have managed to cause a memory corruption that made the editor come up empty when trying to load my patch ...13:08
wolfsprauland photos here http://www.flickr.com/photos/su1droot/sets/72157628115535073/with/6390867571/13:08
wpwrak_nice search engine optimization :-)13:09
wolfspraulMilkymist was actually used all around the world on selected occasions, but that's one case where I have all data - event/date, group, vj, video, photos...13:09
wpwrak_video quality is pretty good. more of this ! :-)13:10
wpwrak_a world map with little links to gig would be nice :)13:10
wolfspraulhere's another video of the same group/event/performance (but I think the 1st vid is better) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_oqaPflyTw13:13
wolfspraulwpwrak_: well, it's a terrible amount of work to get all details and pieces together13:13
wolfsprauland it's not like we have a rolling stones biography project where multiple people sit down for how long to piece every memorable day together...13:13
wpwrak_would be nice to have a description on the videos. one with strategic keywords, like "milkymist" :)13:13
wolfspraulso I rather have a few cases like that cheap dinosaurs one, and that serves as proof that all this fancy Milkymist stuff actually works and actually makes sense for serious performing artists13:14
wpwrak_maybe we need to get the message out more that we want footage13:15
wolfspraulif I find another such well documented case, of course I will pay attention, but I'm not running after people asking them to tell me where and when and how they used mm - infinite time sink...13:15
wolfspraulI'm still waiting for the infamous 25gb agata video for example :-)13:15
wpwrak_the dinosaurs are a good reference point. set the bar reasonably high, so it won't be all blurry smartphone cam pictures13:15
wolfspraulvideo art historians will still regret the loss of that file in 500 years13:15
wpwrak_;-)13:16
wpwrak_the effects are stronger on the 2nd video13:16
wolfspraulI just wanted to give peterkirn one well documented case if he wants to mention that in a side sentence somewhere13:16
wpwrak_and nicely matched to the tone of the music13:16
peterkirnHi, back :)13:40
peterkirnwolfspraul: just looking  did you have that case? not everything needs to fit into this article, either.13:40
peterkirnoh, 8static& that's the same as this NO CARRIER video?13:41
lekernelpeterkirn: we have two NO CARRIER videos, one with Nullsleep and another with 8static13:41
lekernels/with/at13:42
GitHub166[flickernoise] wpwrak pushed 31 new commits to direct-midi: http://git.io/IHWgkw13:43
GitHub166[flickernoise/direct-midi] stimuli: make MIDI channel numbers one-based - Werner Almesberger13:43
GitHub166[flickernoise/direct-midi] stimuli: added MIDI channel wildcard (WIP) - Werner Almesberger13:43
GitHub166[flickernoise/direct-midi] test/stim: update for one-based channel numbers - Werner Almesberger13:43
peterkirnlekernel: yeah, I know, got both of them in the story already ;)13:48
peterkirnhopefully next time, better documentation!13:48
wolfspraulpeterkirn: which case? sorry don't understand13:52
wolfspraulThihi_: thanks a lot for your feedback, super tired now, so I will reply tomorrow13:53
wolfspraulof course I agree with you, just thinking about the quickest path to improvement now...13:53
wolfspraulmore tomorrow, n813:53
wolfspraul(Thihi is a Finnish journalist who is reviewing the m1 for some potential articles/posts...)13:54
wpwrak_perhaps we should explain the FPGA more in terms of it being the technology that allows us (as opposed to big industry) to build such a device, without trying too much to praise FPGA benefits on a general basis13:54
wpwrak_the FPGA has of course more benefits (as well as weaknesses), but they're more of a secondary nature13:55
GitHub194[migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/commit/945d655d451f513095a1ea3cb603b7ebe97b3b8914:26
GitHub194[migen/master] bus: ASMI hub (untested) - Sebastien Bourdeauducq14:26
larscwhat's ASMI?14:27
lekernelthe next memory system14:27
lekernelwith out-of-order execution and parallel execution of commands to different DRAM banks14:28
larscah, ok14:34
lekernelhttp://createdigitalmotion.com/2012/02/milkymist-is-digital-visual-synthesizer-and-processor-built-on-sophisticated-open-source-hardware/14:55
lekernelpeterkirn: very good article !14:56
Scopeuk_the first picture makes me want to buy a fader fox15:08
wpwrak_Scopeuk_: it conveys a sense of power, doesn't it ? :-)15:17
peterkirnThanks!15:19
peterkirnheh, had that impact on me& well, have at least one faderfox.15:19
wpwrak_nice borg reference ;-)15:24
peterkirnheh& right? Surely the Borg would have liked FPGAs. Organic-hybrid FPGAs, anyway...15:25
wpwrak_very good article, thanks a lot !15:27
wpwrak_playing with FPGAs actually does convey a bit of a not-from-this-world feeling :) well, at least for me, who's new to this. but i was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't all that hard to get something done with the FPGA.15:30
Action: Scopeuk_ has always cheeped out on midi controllers, I built my current one. one of these daysi'll buy a proper one15:31
wpwrak_for midi controllers, i think a combination of LV3 and something with pad would be ideal15:34
wpwrak_a pad is great for interactive use. allows you to move.15:35
wpwrak_the LV3 is more an engineering instrument. something where you quietly fine-tune some parameter.15:35
Scopeuk_touch pad or drum/trigger ?15:35
wpwrak_touch pad15:36
Scopeuk_fair enough15:36
Scopeuk_I had a lot of fun with an M-audio trigger finger15:36
Scopeuk_although there is an old maudio keyboard with an optical 3 controller sensor on one end x25 photon iirc, which looks interesting to me, but i havetn been able ot find one at the right price15:37
wpwrak_i have a korg kaossilator pro, the faderfox lv3, an icon icreativ, and a korg nanoKONTROL2. i love the feel of the kaossilator for interactively manipulating effects15:37
wpwrak_but the kaossilator doesn't have nearly enough controls15:37
Scopeuk_very nice15:37
Scopeuk_how do you find the nanoknotrol?15:37
wpwrak_i don't like it. feels too cheap and fragile.15:38
Scopeuk_fair enough, I suppose they are fairly cheep15:38
wpwrak_i like the solid feel of the icreativ. and also that it packs a lot of different controls though some clever multiplexing15:39
Scopeuk_ever used any of the behringer b control series?15:39
wpwrak_however ... they screwed up on the pad resolution. it's only 16x8, whatever you do15:39
wpwrak_(nanokontrol) yeah, it feels like disposable hardware ;-) if i went to a place where i'd be certain it'll get stolen, the nanokontrol would be my choice for bringing along ;-)15:40
Scopeuk_:)15:40
wpwrak_i looked at the behringer specs but didn't get any. they look nice enough, though.15:40
Scopeuk_one of my friends has a bcr2000 have never had a chance to play with it, it's much much bigger than I was expecting15:41
Scopeuk_feels supprisingly solid15:41
peterkirnI have utterly abused the KORG nano series.15:42
peterkirnThey may be light, but they're not fragile. ;)15:42
wpwrak_novation have some interesting combi devices. with basically all types of controls, rotary, fader, drum pads, keyboard, joystick, x/y pad15:42
peterkirnpeople like the BCRs, one of the better Behringer pieces and there are a lot of them around.15:42
peterkirnI'll probably be using an Akai micro keyboard; those are handy and easy to drop in a bag.15:42
wpwrak_might be interesting to have at least from a developer's point of view. alas, a bit pricy. and also a little big.15:43
Scopeuk_they hold there value though, I'm looking to pick one up when I can grab a second hand one for £5015:43
Scopeuk_did anyone get to play with the modular system that showed up a few years back? was just a back pane covered in jack sockets and then various control types you could just plug in in any configuration15:43
wpwrak_haven't heard of that15:45
Scopeuk_let me see if i can find it15:45
wpwrak_modular usually means expensive, though15:46
Scopeuk_http://www.gearjunkies.com/product_info.php?cPath=6_76&products_id=1370315:47
Scopeuk_I believe the company may have gone bust15:47
wpwrak_yeah, a domain grabber has taken over mawzer.com. that's death in the internet age. you don't rest in peace - they drag out your corpse and publicly defile it.15:51
wpwrak_could be that things like lemur and then i/droid pads killed it15:52
wpwrak_in the future, i want a pad on milkymist, too. then we don't need to chase low-end midi controllers :)15:53
Scopeuk_midi is daisy chain, it should be a doddle to build a set of simple single control/bank devices that chain, and it should be possible to add a sysex signal to auto conf the channels in a predictable way16:08
wpwrak_new16:12
wpwrak_oops16:12
Scopeuk_damn it I'm now trying to design the above in my head16:38
wpwrak_;-))16:38
Scopeuk_i'll get as far as a design, then i'll look at how much encoders cost again and decide against it16:41
Scopeuk_too many test patterns of late, ff ft tt tf looks more normal than ff ft tf tt16:48
wpwrak_are encoders that expensive ? the ones i see at digi-key are. but i wonder if that's a good place to look for such things.16:49
Scopeuk_i've never seen much below £1:50 per unit16:51
wpwrak_that doesn't sound too bad16:52
Scopeuk_which is fine until you want 10 or 2016:52
wpwrak_with the UKP nice and cheap ... ;-)16:52
Scopeuk_think i'm still stuck in a student mind set16:52
Scopeuk_:P16:52
Scopeuk_some of us have to live here16:52
GitHub78[migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/commit/ef436a1ec9dbc37b5cfa0ec64627238f9a5f59fd16:54
GitHub78[migen/master] bus/asmibus: add get_slots, fix get_fragment - Sebastien Bourdeauducq16:54
Scopeukwpwrak_,  http://pastebin.com/dZLMBxG417:27
Scopeukthink I might have a little too much spare time17:28
nrlnd: D17:28
wpwrak_lots of hardware. seems that you have some MIDI equipment that isn't easily configured and you need to adapt to it ?17:35
Scopeukwpwrak_, well mine isn’t that easily configure I have to re-program the eeprom,17:41
Scopeukbut that also only outputs usb17:41
Scopeukidea was just a minimal auto conf, I'm sure I would run into lots of problems with implementation17:42
ScopeukI'll put it down for a day or so and look it over17:44
lekernelpeterkirn1: welcome on board ;)18:00
GitHub92[flickernoise] wpwrak pushed 4 new commits to direct-midi: http://git.io/Qvn32w18:44
GitHub92[flickernoise/direct-midi] ptest: new options -v and -m to exercise MIDI message processing - Werner Almesberger18:44
GitHub92[flickernoise/direct-midi] test/stimin: added MIDI injection to test cases - Werner Almesberger18:44
GitHub92[flickernoise/direct-midi] stimuli: ignore value 0 in midi_proc_diff_button - Werner Almesberger18:44
kristianpaulfpgaminer: Hi23:30
kristianpaulYour Verilog_Xilinx_Port works with a 50Mhz clock right?23:30
kristianpaulI just got in sinthezised on my M1, but i'n sending data (64bits) and got no reply23:31
kristianpauli just noticed you use hash_clk for serial_transmit clock23:31
kristianpaulbut this is set to 50Mhz freq23:31
kristianpaulbut main pll is dividing clock freq by 2 it seems23:33
kristianpaulah this could ne, that i should enable the commented line with CLK2X..23:34
kristianpaulbtw your code is very nice well documented ;-)!!23:34
kristianpaulah indeed thats the problem, ClkFrequency should be  2500000023:43
--- Sat Feb 11 201200:00

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