wpwrak | xiangfu: good news: i built softusb with your patches and my riitek rf combo keybaord is still happy | 00:57 |
---|---|---|
xiangfu | wpwrak, great. | 01:00 |
kristianpaul | damn, there is something wrong with the jtag-pod or.. | 02:55 |
kristianpaul | i can flash NOR | 02:56 |
kristianpaul | detect all OK | 02:56 |
kristianpaul | i see led activity on the pod as soon system boots | 02:56 |
kristianpaul | but i dont see nothing with flterm/gtkterm.. | 02:56 |
kristianpaul | no boot usual messages.. | 03:01 |
kristianpaul | ah yes i also ran m1 relflash script | 03:01 |
Action: kristianpaul brings laptop | 03:03 | |
wpwrak | maybe gateware got out of sync ? | 03:03 |
wpwrak | no serial sounds either like a jtag board problem or a uart incompatibility | 03:04 |
kristianpaul | i'm using right now M1's local osc if you meant that | 03:04 |
kristianpaul | but the leds are blinking.. | 03:04 |
wpwrak | gateware = the stuff the fpga "runs" | 03:04 |
kristianpaul | ah | 03:04 |
wpwrak | blinking leds ... what else could you expect of life ? ;-) | 03:05 |
kristianpaul | no i reflahsed already from xiangfu script | 03:05 |
kristianpaul | i mean leds in the jtag pod | 03:05 |
kristianpaul | i'll remove it and shor rx and tx and see | 03:05 |
kristianpaul | s/shor/short | 03:06 |
kristianpaul | nice, i have a loop | 03:08 |
kristianpaul | may be bad ground between m1 and the jtag-pod? | 03:08 |
wpwrak | are you sure the M1 is okay ? | 03:09 |
kristianpaul | i'll try other laptop, lets see | 03:09 |
wpwrak | i mean, the sw on it | 03:09 |
kristianpaul | i wasnt | 03:09 |
wpwrak | if you install the regular firmware, does it render ? | 03:09 |
kristianpaul | but i reflashed "factory" image | 03:09 |
kristianpaul | havent try render on it since more than six months :-) | 03:09 |
wolfspraul | factory :-) | 03:09 |
Action: kristianpaul remenber bring monitor too | 03:10 | |
wpwrak | ah, no screen. that's a good way for complicating your life :) | 03:10 |
kristianpaul | my desk is small, adding screen complicate my life | 03:11 |
kristianpaul | ;) | 03:11 |
wpwrak | ceiling + wires ? :) | 03:11 |
kristianpaul | not exactly | 03:12 |
kristianpaul | is more a problem of where i get space for put screen on plus wiring the vga cable where M1 is located... | 03:13 |
wpwrak | yup. hang it from the ceiling, above whatever else you have | 03:15 |
wpwrak | assuming you haven't exercised that option yet, of course | 03:15 |
kristianpaul | ceiling is 3mts over me ! | 03:15 |
wpwrak | or maybe hang it on a wall | 03:15 |
kristianpaul | i usually use a small chair :) | 03:16 |
wpwrak | (3m) there's a recent invention called "ladder" :) | 03:16 |
kristianpaul | ok.. | 03:16 |
kristianpaul | dont have one :( | 03:16 |
wpwrak | sigh | 03:17 |
kristianpaul | YES i see FB menu | 03:17 |
wpwrak | can i tie you shoelaces for you as well ? | 03:17 |
kristianpaul | fpga is okat then.. | 03:17 |
wpwrak | whee ! :) | 03:17 |
kristianpaul | now lets try another usb port from another computer | 03:18 |
kristianpaul | shoelaces, no thanks ! | 03:18 |
kristianpaul | ladder are expensive, 100usd the chepaer one .. | 03:19 |
wpwrak | if you live in an apartment building, the "encargado" may have one | 03:19 |
wpwrak | if you don't, perhaps you have neighbours ... | 03:20 |
kristianpaul | yes i do | 03:20 |
kristianpaul | but lest not talk about social interaction with then right now ;) | 03:20 |
kristianpaul | ok it renders too | 03:20 |
wpwrak | maybe indeed a uart problem then | 03:24 |
wpwrak | perhaps try m1nor'ing these: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/m1-20120125/ | 03:24 |
wpwrak | that may not be what you want in the end, but it's at least a set that's consistent within itself | 03:25 |
wpwrak | and the uart should work :) | 03:25 |
kristianpaul | it works on my laptop | 03:26 |
kristianpaul | does it matter i recently connected another jtag-pod? | 03:26 |
wpwrak | now you lost me | 03:27 |
kristianpaul | or there were two pods connected at same time | 03:27 |
wpwrak | oh yes, that would confuse things :) | 03:27 |
wpwrak | only one at a time :) | 03:27 |
kristianpaul | why!! | 03:27 |
kristianpaul | i connected two jtag-pod | 03:28 |
wpwrak | because few if any of the tools know how to deal with > 1 ;-) | 03:28 |
kristianpaul | all worked fine was last time i remenber.. | 03:28 |
kristianpaul | hmm | 03:28 |
wpwrak | they will do something. 50% chance it's what you expect. 50% it ain't :) | 03:28 |
kristianpaul | :-| | 03:29 |
kristianpaul | now i need make back to work the first jtag-pod... | 03:29 |
kristianpaul | what hell happened.. :\ | 03:29 |
Action: kristianpaul refuses to reboot its dekstop computer | 03:30 | |
kristianpaul | ha | 03:32 |
kristianpaul | indeed flterm wasnt showing the truth, neither screen | 03:32 |
kristianpaul | check this from gtkterm | 03:32 |
kristianpaul | http://pastebin.com/ScfdLkbx | 03:32 |
kristianpaul | is my m1 booting ;) | 03:32 |
kristianpaul | ahh may be was that linux upgrade i aplied on sunday.. | 03:34 |
kristianpaul | oh well lets reboot | 03:34 |
Action: kristianpaul dislike reboot computer after update linux | 03:35 | |
kristianpaul | argh, it works now | 03:38 |
kristianpaul | :) | 03:39 |
kristianpaul | oh migen is in opencores | 03:40 |
Fallenou_ | nice to see that Lattice guys are reading Milkymist ML | 08:41 |
wolfspraul | yes but not so nice if you know that it's mostly lip service :-) | 08:42 |
Fallenou_ | lip ? | 08:42 |
wolfspraul | just talk | 08:44 |
Fallenou | oh right, ok :) | 08:44 |
wolfspraul | but I had a lot of ideas how to respond to the "remember that it's us who are the *official" maintainer..." line | 08:45 |
wolfspraul | ha ha | 08:45 |
wolfspraul | yes | 08:45 |
wolfspraul | I remember that every day :-) | 08:45 |
Fallenou | "we duly noted your concern and will let you know when the issue will be fixed" | 08:45 |
wolfspraul | that must be why it's dead | 08:45 |
wolfspraul | unmaintained | 08:45 |
wolfspraul | buggy | 08:45 |
Fallenou | ahah | 08:45 |
wolfspraul | ... | 08:45 |
wolfspraul | anyway | 08:45 |
Fallenou | is this true anyway ? I thought lekernel was the maintainer now | 08:45 |
wolfspraul | I replied on the list and in private, and I don't expect an answer or any real help. | 08:45 |
Fallenou | ok, really too bad | 08:46 |
wolfspraul | up in corporatetown they haven't understood some of those foss principles yet | 08:46 |
Fallenou | I was thinking they were starting to notice they have bug and that someone actually use their crap | 08:46 |
wolfspraul | but it's enough to claim 'official ownership' once in a while ;-) | 08:46 |
wolfspraul | from the meeting room... | 08:46 |
wolfspraul | if I would count on them, I would have long left the Milkymist project | 08:47 |
wolfspraul | let's see what they contribute, Sebastien has had the best results in getting some small things from them, I believe | 08:47 |
wolfspraul | for now I remember about 'official' | 08:47 |
wolfspraul | ha ha | 08:47 |
Fallenou | =) | 08:47 |
wolfspraul | we should send them a big shiny badge | 08:48 |
wolfspraul | maybe the fact that they are the official maintainer (which they reminded us about) is the reason that there is no progress? | 09:16 |
wolfspraul | it's probably closer to the truth than anything else - a more responsive maintainer who could deal with issues more timely would make all the difference | 09:17 |
Fallenou | I guess you're right | 09:29 |
Fallenou | let's hope for the best : they realize they have work to do and they do it | 09:29 |
Fallenou | but don't depend on it | 09:29 |
wolfspraul | to be fair to them, as a business it is very hard for them to justify just 'improving' something and spending money on engineering | 09:30 |
wolfspraul | we sometimes forget what luxury we have in just doing whatever we like ;-) | 09:31 |
wolfspraul | whereas a business needs to understand why, when and how much money is coming back when they spend that 1000 USD | 09:31 |
wolfspraul | r&d is 5-10% of a healthy high-tech business, so if fixing a GCC bug costs 10,000 USD (with all their overhead every little thing they do is very expensive to them), they need to make 100-200k USD back - that's a lot of chips to sell... | 09:32 |
Fallenou | :/ | 09:33 |
wolfspraul | that's the reality on the other side, so my expectations are accordingly | 09:33 |
Fallenou | ok got it | 09:33 |
roh | re | 09:35 |
bkero | wolfspraul: That's if the GCC bug was the goal, rather than the expected result of some R&D | 10:09 |
wolfspraul | sorry don't understand | 10:10 |
bkero | Why so many companies are drawn to open source software is that they're not going to pay 10k for initial software licenses. The gcc patch was contributed as an asidebecause there were no more appropriate tools out there. | 10:10 |
wolfspraul | do you think Lattice will get serious about supporting gcc-lm32 ? | 10:11 |
wolfspraul | how can we encourage and support them, if at all? | 10:11 |
bkero | documentation, other things to encourage adoption of the platform | 10:11 |
bkero | widespread usage | 10:11 |
bkero | casual users | 10:12 |
wolfspraul | sorry I cannot follow you. there are specific bugs right now, how are they going to be fixed? | 10:13 |
wolfspraul | Lattice is the 'official' maintainer in order to ignore bugs? | 10:13 |
wolfspraul | maybe it's easier to assume that there is no active maintainer, and then compare whether it's easier to get llvm or gcc fixed. which is essentially what mwalle, sebastien and others are doing. | 10:14 |
bkero | That's a good way to approach it. | 10:14 |
wolfspraul | we do need gcc in the long run for Linux, but that just means another task, because waiting for Lattice to respond to bugs assigned to them hasn't been working so far :-) | 10:14 |
lekernel | why not compile Linux with clang? | 10:15 |
wolfspraul | just needs trying, but my gut feeling tells me until you have a full rootfs you will have fixed those gcc bugs several times... | 10:15 |
lekernel | http://lwn.net/Articles/411654/ | 10:16 |
wolfspraul | unless Lattice actually does something, their 'reminder' is noise | 10:16 |
wpwrak | their "reminder" brought them out of hiding, though | 10:17 |
wpwrak | maybe they mistakenly thought everything was well | 10:17 |
wpwrak | i mean, lm32-gcc so far has worked perfectly for me. so it's not | 10:18 |
wpwrak | broken in very obvious ways | 10:18 |
lekernel | well, as long as you only have C code and use 4.5.x, there are no big problems | 10:19 |
wolfspraul | they are probably passing a perfect binary in a .zip file around inside Lattice, and summer 'early friday' time is coming soon as well :-) | 10:19 |
lekernel | but C++ or 4.6/4.7 are broken | 10:20 |
wolfspraul | I think the simple truth is that Lattice has no resources to fix gcc bugs | 10:21 |
roh | :) | 10:22 |
wolfspraul | so that's an extra item somewhere on someone's "keep an eye on this" list, but they can win absolutely nothing inside Lattice with that | 10:22 |
wolfspraul | so it's just kept at the level that it doesn't blow up :-) | 10:22 |
wpwrak | maybe the current discussion can help with blowing it up :) | 10:23 |
roh | i dont think so | 10:23 |
roh | 'hey, there even is gcc 4.x for that platform' | 10:24 |
Action: roh has seen much worse in sdks for various platforms | 10:24 | |
wolfspraul | since they care about 'official' so much, one way to make it blow up is to convince upstream to hand over the 'official' maintainership to someone who meets minimum responsiveness and bug fixing standards | 10:25 |
roh | thats my point | 10:25 |
wolfspraul | but even if that works, it only means all actual work has to happen outside Lattice | 10:25 |
roh | regularly vendors do not 'maintain' their sdks for thei chips | 10:25 |
roh | its usual to do this 'one-shot' and only fix major showstoppers for paying customers | 10:26 |
wolfspraul | yes | 10:26 |
roh | sometimes even that is more workadound that fixing | 10:26 |
wolfspraul | and whining foss people are not among them | 10:26 |
wolfspraul | the skill there is just to buy time and keep them quiet :-) | 10:26 |
roh | in my pov i think maintainance level and quality is much better in the foss industry than the closed-world vendor world | 10:27 |
roh | simply because most times i get a glimpse behind the curtain ist abyss | 10:27 |
roh | eh its | 10:27 |
wpwrak | lekernel: if C++ is broken, that's clearly bad. but do you run into a lot of things that need > 4.5 ? | 10:27 |
roh | i dont wonder.. such code i also would not want to show around ;) | 10:27 |
wpwrak | (i just checked and found that my workstation has 4.4.3, from 2009. for the ben, i even have 4.3.3 or 4.4.2) | 10:30 |
roh | gcc version 4.4.1 (Ubuntu 4.4.1-4ubuntu9) | 10:30 |
roh | old stuff | 10:31 |
wpwrak | seems to do the job :) | 10:31 |
lekernel | I'm thinking about the long term here | 10:31 |
lekernel | so you're advocating that obscure, unmaintainable spaghetti code should be kept around? | 10:31 |
roh | ack. we have enough stones on the way to break the wheels we just reinvented. lets not add more if we are not in real trouble | 10:32 |
wpwrak | the current release is 4.6.2. so if they're at 4.5.3, it means they haven't kept of for maybe half a year. that's not catastrophic. | 10:32 |
roh | lekernel: as long as we do not have a drop-in replacement which doesnt cost uncalculatable much developer time... | 10:32 |
wpwrak | lekernel: gcc maintainability seems to be a non-issue for almost anyone who even knows what gcc is :) | 10:33 |
lekernel | haha, with this attitude we'd still be writing COBOL :) | 10:34 |
roh | gcc is the evil mother in law of linux | 10:34 |
roh | you cant live without it, but you cant really get to like her (if you arent somebody with an evil grin yourself) | 10:35 |
wpwrak | lekernel: so unless you're looking for a new hobby and have becoming the official maintainer for lm32 gcc in mind for it, it shouldn't matter to you. provided that lm32 gcc is being maintained. | 10:35 |
lekernel | roh: you know, clang can compile a linux kernel ... | 10:35 |
wpwrak | a lot of people seem to get along with gcc well enough | 10:35 |
roh | wpwrak: i always thought maintainership in gcc is decided by who ever lost the poker game with the maintainer last.. | 10:35 |
wpwrak | i mean, gcc developers | 10:35 |
wolfspraul | wpwrak: c++ is broken | 10:36 |
roh | lekernel: clang isnt avail in the same quality for all platforms yet. | 10:36 |
wolfspraul | and I don't think you can consider lm32 gcc maintained, it's fake maintained, which is worse | 10:36 |
lekernel | true, and I just gave it a try for LM32 | 10:36 |
lekernel | actually most of it works | 10:36 |
wpwrak | wolfspraul: (C++) yes, that's something that needs fixing in the long run. once we have linux, we'll also be exposed to C++ code | 10:37 |
wolfspraul | I agree that it seems the gcc-lm32 situation does not seem bad or in a state of emergency | 10:38 |
roh | lekernel: well.. if you can get it to compile all you need.. | 10:38 |
wolfspraul | but it is sad that Lattice pretends to maintain it, but actually ignores everything. that is demotivating to people that are actively running into bugs, so lattice should not be surprised about what they do next... | 10:38 |
wpwrak | wolfspraul: (fake maintained) perhaps it was. now lattice publicly stated it isn't. i would view this as an opportunity to solve any communication problems that may have been causal in the lack of support | 10:38 |
wolfspraul | they have done this before, what you see is the fake | 10:38 |
wolfspraul | as mwalle also said on the list, in more drastic terms :-) (empty promises) | 10:39 |
wolfspraul | all they care about is being the 'official maintainer' | 10:39 |
roh | business as usual to me | 10:39 |
wolfspraul | cat inmail > /dev/null | 10:39 |
wpwrak | have they spoken up in public about the gcc situation before ? | 10:39 |
wolfspraul | public/private mails not so sure | 10:41 |
wolfspraul | the situation is like this for a while | 10:41 |
wpwrak | i would attach some significance to this being a public statement. much harder to go back on that | 10:41 |
wolfspraul | you can email bugs to that @latticesemi.com address, and nothing will happen :-) | 10:41 |
wolfspraul | try try | 10:41 |
wolfspraul | I say: fake | 10:41 |
lekernel | quite funny how you advocate GCC but complain about the Xilinx tools :-) they're about at the same level for me | 10:42 |
wpwrak | yes, the "corporate bug desk" doesn't sound very encouraging | 10:42 |
wolfspraul | my 'thanks for offering help' is slightly poisoned, because I have a history of mails towards Lattice (including Jonathan I believe) which are being 100% ignored | 10:42 |
wolfspraul | I will just continue like this :-) | 10:43 |
wolfspraul | others have gotten at least empty promises back (which then were not held) | 10:43 |
wpwrak | lekernel: i wouldn't worry about code quality in gcc. my main concern would be algorithmic complexity. if you want to understand a modern compiler, you have to be up to date on your algorithms. and there's a bunch of them that aren't trivial. | 10:43 |
wolfspraul | the good news is that we don't depend on Lattice, so they either move or not, whatever. they can only embarass themselves. | 10:43 |
wolfspraul | a bit sad considering that they opened-sourced the nice lm32 core... | 10:44 |
wpwrak | lekernel: i think for anyone who makes the effort of actually being able to understand what's going on in the compiler, code ugliness is probably a minor concern. | 10:44 |
wpwrak | lekernel: and yes, i know how ugly GNU code can be ;-) | 10:44 |
wpwrak | wolfspraul: do you know what role this Johnathan has ? management ? developer ? PR ? | 10:45 |
lekernel | ...and about making that effort, LLVM has quite some documentation, while GCC doesn't have any (according to rms policy until recently) | 10:46 |
wolfspraul | he never replied to me, I don't know | 10:46 |
wpwrak | i think out objective with gcc should be to get lattice to take care of it. help them where we can, but not try to add large portions of a compiler to the list of things we maintain, be it officially or de facto. | 10:56 |
wpwrak | if lattice are unwilling or unable to do it, that's of course a problem. but i wouldn't take that for granted just yet. | 10:57 |
wpwrak | also, the milkymist project is growing. this should also increase its importance for lattice. | 10:57 |
lekernel | ...and perhaps the resources that we can use to make GCC join COBOL in the museum of computing aberrations :-) | 10:58 |
wpwrak | wolfspraul: and they aren't completely unresponsive. remember the odd licensing terms that they fixed. so somebody there is paying attention. | 10:59 |
wpwrak | lekernel: gcc gets rejuvenate every once in a while. i wouldn't worry too much about it. rumor has it that its internals were much uglier a few years ago :) | 10:59 |
lekernel | but yeah, from a more pragmatic pov I agree with you | 11:00 |
lekernel | otoh if JP Bonn is able to continue his nice LLVM work ... | 11:01 |
wpwrak | google for "lm32 core" and milkymist comes up as #2. very good. that's something lattice management should find relevant when considering the importance of keeping us happy about architecture support ;-) | 11:03 |
lekernel | as I understand it, this is for an automatic "adaptative CPU" venture | 11:03 |
lekernel | of some sort... I don't know all the details | 11:03 |
wpwrak | (llvm work) i think it's great to have an alternative. not only as a backup but also to provide competition to the leader. | 11:05 |
lekernel | btw, what can gforth be good for? the freebsd bootloader uses it? | 11:07 |
wpwrak | i'm a bit puzzled about the number of forth enthusiasta we have in the qi-hw universe. that's the first place i came across any at all in the last 20+ years :) | 11:09 |
wpwrak | forth comes more from an age where you know every byte of your SRAM on a first name basis, where your PC had BASIC in its ROM, and where compilers were something very expensive only professionals used | 11:11 |
wpwrak | s/know/knew/ | 11:11 |
wpwrak | it's a cute concept, though. very minimalistic. | 11:16 |
kristianpaul | And thats good milkymist still allo you to know every byte of your SRAM :) | 11:38 |
kristianpaul | even more if you embeded it ! :-) | 11:38 |
cladamw | wpwrak, lekernel R143 yes is still open issue on dissipation. just saw email. ;-) so we are considering to do like two 1206 for reaching 50 Ohm in parallel confirmly ? | 12:53 |
cladamw | hmm wpwrak just replied. ;-) | 12:55 |
wpwrak | yeah. i don't know whether heat would be an issue there | 12:57 |
cladamw | (HPD pin) wpwrak, lekernel btw, I added Q4 MOSFET for voltage level shift from 5V to 3.3V in latest sch. could you see that when you are available ? | 12:58 |
cladamw | http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/milkymist_one/sch/tmp/MILKYMISTONE.pdf | 12:58 |
cladamw | wpwrak, thanks about replying my question about ledm currents. ;-) | 13:03 |
lekernel | cladamw: you do not need the bidirectional shifter circuit here | 13:03 |
lekernel | a simple common-source circuit is enough | 13:04 |
lekernel | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:N-channel_JFET_common_source_degeneration.svg | 13:04 |
lekernel | without Rs | 13:04 |
lekernel | so that would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:N-channel_JFET_common_source.svg | 13:05 |
lekernel | and with a pull down | 13:05 |
lekernel | on the gate | 13:05 |
cladamw | Vout is inverted to Vin ? Should they be not inverted ? | 13:12 |
wpwrak | software can handle that ;-) | 13:14 |
lekernel | the fpga will take care of that | 13:14 |
cladamw | I was thought PHD needs un-inverted though, no ? or you meant V+ to J17.HPD, and Q4.drain to fpga pin ? | 13:14 |
cladamw | aha...s/w handles. | 13:15 |
wpwrak | or, in our case, even gateware ;-) | 13:15 |
cladamw | so i edit again now. ;-) | 13:16 |
wpwrak | a 1/4 W through-hole resistor heats to about 75 C at 107 mA, according to my not very reliable thermometer | 13:19 |
cladamw | wait... i confusing again. so Vin is HPD pin, and Vout is to fpga pin, no Rs, and R232 keeps 4.7K, Q4.gate say using like a 1K pulldown ? correct ? | 13:19 |
wpwrak | has a bit of heat dissipation through the leads, though. and i suppose into the thermocouple. | 13:20 |
lekernel | cladamw: use a 10K pulldown and you can connect the drain directly to the FPGA without a pull up - we can enable the internal pull up of the FPGA | 13:21 |
wpwrak | low = not connected, right ? so R232 being a pull-up doesn't make sense | 13:21 |
wpwrak | and yes, 10 kOhm should be plenty :) | 13:22 |
cladamw | lekernel, wpwrak okay, edit it now. :) | 13:24 |
cladamw | pls reload latest link again. :) | 13:34 |
cladamw | wpwrak, lekernel http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/milkymist_one/sch/tmp/MILKYMISTONE.pdf | 13:39 |
larsc | hm... if you brick your milkymist-one will it become a milkymi-stone? | 13:41 |
Thihi | .... | 13:42 |
wolfspraul | Thihi: hi :-) | 13:49 |
wolfspraul | too bad I have to logout, too tired. will read the backlog. | 13:49 |
Thihi | Hi. | 13:52 |
wolfspraul | we still don't have an official update you can flash onto your m1 ;-) | 14:01 |
wolfspraul | but good things are coming, if you are patient... | 14:01 |
wolfspraul | like support for usb-midi controllers, images, etc. | 14:01 |
wolfspraul | what's your impression so far? is anything publishable right now? | 14:02 |
lekernel | images are there already wolfspraul ... | 14:19 |
Fallenou | 14:46 < larsc> hm... if you brick your milkymist-one will it become a milkymi-stone? < nice one =) | 15:03 |
kristianpaul | lol | 15:10 |
Thihi | wolfspraul, well, my impression is that MM1 is way too hard to use for most people. But it's a nice kit for people who are into tinkering and coding and bright lights and good parties, I guess. | 15:12 |
kristianpaul | Thihi: what you think is too hard? | 15:14 |
lekernel | Thihi: what do you compare it to? have you tried, e.g. modul8, resolume, processing, puredata, ...? | 15:16 |
Thihi | kristianpaul, well, for instance, the ui is tedious way beyond what most people would consider accessible in any way. Yeah, anyone who really reads everything they see on a screen and can analyze what they see learn to use it, but in a day and age where people are used to really easy and simple uis, the one in mm1 is obscenely nerdy. I have no problem with it, but "I wouldn't make my friends use it", I guess. | 15:31 |
Fallenou | I think you say this because it has windows and things that looks like a traditional windowed window manager (gnome/kde/windows 7) but looks like an old one | 15:34 |
Fallenou | if you remove windows I think you would not say that | 15:34 |
Fallenou | a totally different UI with no windows | 15:35 |
Fallenou | say for example just a full screen app with buttons etc | 15:35 |
Fallenou | and you cannot compare it to gnome/kde/windows 7 and it is still usable | 15:35 |
Fallenou | but you don't think it's nerdy | 15:35 |
lekernel | Thihi: ever seen puredata? http://crab.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/regen-pd.png | 15:36 |
Thihi | Well, there is certainly nothing wrong with the hardware itself, and it does produce nice enough visuals, so yeah, with a different ui it would be much more usable :) | 15:36 |
Fallenou | I'm pretty convinced that FN would look really less "old style UI"/nerdy without any windows and just a full screen app | 15:37 |
lekernel | based on good ol' Tk unchanged from 1991 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tk_(framework) | 15:37 |
Thihi | And then a lot of the ui stuff seems counterintuitive for people I've dabbled with it. Like the populating of patches to match keys is very tedious to do by hand, but autopopulating just sucks. | 15:38 |
Thihi | lekernel, and I'm not trying to compare it with anything now, I'm just talking about the level of accessibility. The concept and hardware of mm1 seem completely sound to me. | 15:39 |
Fallenou | I think a few things in the UI are "first versions" which can be improved | 15:39 |
Thihi | Yeah | 15:39 |
Fallenou | usually in a project the feature is just developped, the UI is done quickly to make the new feature available | 15:40 |
Fallenou | but often the UI is not perfect the first time | 15:40 |
Thihi | I'm sure the product will get better as time progresses. | 15:40 |
Fallenou | it's only there to show the feature | 15:40 |
Fallenou | so there is always room for improvement | 15:40 |
Thihi | But wolfspraul asked me what I think of it now. | 15:40 |
Fallenou | ok | 15:40 |
kristianpaul | Thihi: what guy you imagine? can you provide a sketch for a friendly gui? | 15:56 |
kristianpaul | or a reference | 15:56 |
wpwrak | lekernel: hmm, 32 bit word collision probability ... collision between what and what ? i.e., could it be subject to the birthday paradox ? | 18:31 |
lekernel | it's just a magic word to check that you're indeed reading a wishbone bus description | 18:49 |
lekernel | so no birthday paradox | 18:49 |
wpwrak | ah, good | 18:53 |
wpwrak | it's funny, when reading the presentation, all of a sudden you realize how simple it all could be if you'd drop "Shouldn't leave proprietary blocks out in the cold" and "Should not force the use of external sources for metadata" | 18:55 |
wpwrak | i translate the latter to "support closed source drivers" | 18:56 |
larsc | for me the whole stuff just reads like 'distributed devicetree' | 18:57 |
wpwrak | yeah | 18:58 |
larsc | and the distributed is only in there because they want to support proprietary blocks | 19:02 |
wpwrak | "playing nice" with proprietary stuff has a non-negligible cost | 19:05 |
wpwrak | lekernel: btw, one thing that bothers me with llvm is that this project seems to depend quite a bit on Apple. doesn't that worry you at all ? | 19:06 |
whitequark | wpwrak: oh please. don't go the gcc way. | 19:20 |
wpwrak | gcc's been a reliable companion for me for the last ~25 years. you'll have a hard time convincing me it's bad :) | 19:25 |
wpwrak | it has also suffered and survived a number of crises in maintainership. community support is very strong around it. | 19:26 |
wpwrak | of course, things are more difficult with you're on a fringe platform like lm32. but you'll have that problem everywhere. | 19:27 |
wpwrak | s/with/when/ | 19:27 |
whitequark | I mean the part about gcc not supporting plugins because it would make it easy to use for proprietary developers. | 19:28 |
whitequark | llvm's main strength is modularity, and making a modular compiler is the one way to make a good compiler | 19:28 |
whitequark | generally, you don't make a good (technically) project if your goal is to make something free | 19:29 |
whitequark | you make a good project if your goal is to make something awesome. | 19:29 |
whitequark | if your goal, as a milkymist dev, is to make a free SoC, you will fail | 19:30 |
whitequark | if you want to make a good _and_ free SoC, through, you have some chances to succeed | 19:30 |
whitequark | open-source exists not because of some stallman-like shit or whatever. OSS and FOSS exist because knowledge wants to be free | 19:31 |
whitequark | it's more efficient this way | 19:31 |
whitequark | science is basically open-source for centuries | 19:31 |
wpwrak | usually the two go hand in hand. those who only talk about freedom but have no idea about technical quality rarely get beyond hello.c :) | 19:31 |
whitequark | when they do, they make arcane stuff like gcc. | 19:31 |
whitequark | if it would die tomorrow, I won't drop a single tear | 19:31 |
whitequark | the only way to make a good product is to make a product which is good for everyone | 19:35 |
whitequark | not my making a product which is bad for whoever wants to use it in a proprietary way | 19:36 |
whitequark | the same applies to GPL vs. MIT | 19:36 |
wpwrak | i'll remind my butcher of that the next time i buy meat for a barbecue ;-) | 19:36 |
whitequark | er | 19:37 |
whitequark | what? :) | 19:37 |
wpwrak | good for everyone -> the meat must be acceptable for vegans too | 19:37 |
larsc | you'd want to make a good product for your target group | 19:37 |
larsc | not for everybody | 19:37 |
wpwrak | otherwise it's not a good product, according to whitequark | 19:37 |
whitequark | wpwrak: don't nitpick on details. you understand what do I mean | 19:38 |
whitequark | meat isn't deliberately made bad for vegans | 19:38 |
wpwrak | larsc: precisely. and the target group isn't necessarily self-selecting. | 19:38 |
whitequark | hm | 19:40 |
whitequark | now that we speak about it. what's the license of M1 SoC? | 19:40 |
larsc | gpl | 19:43 |
wpwrak | it's a mix of GPLv3, 3-clause BSD, LSCOSLA, probably more | 19:45 |
wpwrak | most of the stuff we do is GPLv3 | 19:45 |
whitequark | LSCOSLA? | 19:55 |
wpwrak | Lattice Semiconductor Corporation Open Source License Agreement | 19:55 |
lekernel | wpwrak: I don't know which is worse, Apple or RMS | 23:45 |
wpwrak | ;-) | 23:46 |
lekernel | LLVM is actually more independent, since its code is more readable and documented and therefore relies less on the obscure knowledge of some elite | 23:46 |
wpwrak | have you heard of EGCS ? that was a gcc fork when development there stalled. it later became the official gcc. | 23:47 |
lekernel | yes, I have | 23:48 |
wpwrak | so there's provably enough of that "obscure knowledge" around that the community can work around maintenance issues | 23:48 |
wpwrak | and again, i think the main difficulty when working on a compiler is understanding enough about compilers in the first place | 23:48 |
wolfspraul | ah, llvm still :-) | 23:49 |
wpwrak | yeah :) | 23:49 |
wolfspraul | as expected there was no further response from Jonathan on the list or to (my) private mail | 23:49 |
wolfspraul | life as usual at Lattice Corp :-) | 23:50 |
wpwrak | it's a bit sad that lekernel can't control his anger better. i don't think attacking lattice will increase their willingness to provide better support | 23:50 |
wolfspraul | I agree, of course | 23:50 |
wolfspraul | I am sad that we take from Lattice (the lm32 core), but don't find smarter ways to give back | 23:50 |
wolfspraul | like promoting their chips or services or whatever. or understanding their lm32 strategy, their gcc support strategy, and so on | 23:51 |
wolfspraul | but amazingly, except for rare lip service mails, there's only silence... | 23:51 |
wolfspraul | it's just unbelievable that we cannot have a simple few-line exchange with Lattice about their real resource commitments to gcc, or how to setup a better maintenance and bugfixing workflow | 23:51 |
wolfspraul | but it seems we cannot... | 23:52 |
wpwrak | they are kinda obscure. i wonder what keeps them in business | 23:52 |
wolfspraul | maybe some govt contracts :-) | 23:52 |
wolfspraul | there's a lot of money to be made in many ways | 23:52 |
wolfspraul | I just finally want to find someone to have an intelligent short conversation with. | 23:53 |
wolfspraul | even if it's 100% negative, then at least that's clear | 23:53 |
wpwrak | yes. if it's a secrecy-heavy domain, like military, then that could explain some of the communication problems | 23:53 |
wolfspraul | if you read Jonathan's mail carefully, it's written as if to please some higher-up | 23:54 |
wpwrak | maybe you have to find an FPGA conference and try to arrange a meeting there. some people function only face to face. | 23:54 |
wpwrak | could be | 23:54 |
lekernel | wpwrak: where did I "attack" lattice? I think my wasn't even the most aggressive | 23:55 |
wolfspraul | as if he wants to repeat how it should be (and is actually not), so that he can tick off a checklist and point to his own mails in defense later (internally) | 23:55 |
lekernel | my mail | 23:55 |
wolfspraul | lekernel: have you had back and forth communication with someone from Lattice? | 23:56 |
wolfspraul | with Jonathan? | 23:56 |
wolfspraul | is he an engineer? customer support? engineering manager? other? | 23:56 |
wpwrak | lekernel: "What about Lattice funding JP so he can more easily continue his nice LLVM work?" wasn't nice. they just said they're standing behind gcc, which you thus summarily reject. | 23:56 |
wolfspraul | until we understand more about *their* business, and *their* needs, we will cluelessly guess around | 23:58 |
wpwrak | the other negative responses were about past frustrations. that's a different category. it leaves open a path for better cooperation in the future. | 23:58 |
wolfspraul | and unfortunately they don't tell us, which is something I rarely see | 23:58 |
wolfspraul | so yeah, maybe they have a 10-year govt contract on whatever project, and the 'outward' functions die out a little over the years :-) | 23:58 |
wpwrak | one important thing in negotiation is to always leave your opponents golden bridges to go where you want them to go :) | 23:58 |
--- Fri Feb 10 2012 | 00:00 |
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