#milkymist IRC log for Thursday, 2012-01-12

wpwrakplan B would be to use midi-over-osc. that should also work with the nov 29 build00:00
wpwrakand that's the only sane way to use the lvl3 at the moment. likewise, it allows you to use multiple midi devices without running out of M1 usb ports00:00
wolfspraulyes but too lazy for that now, I should get the update soon00:02
wolfsprauljust checked rii a bit, seems in china ca. 20 USD00:02
wolfspraulretail. maybe we should kick out the silicone keyboard and include that instead?00:02
wolfspraulI will definitely buy some for myself and others, then we see. and you say this works well?00:02
wolfspraulthe touchpad works well too?00:02
wpwrakyes, works well00:02
wolfspraulwhat is the weight?00:03
wpwrakit's small, so it's not excessively comfortable00:03
wolfspraul(if you have a scale, otherwise I trust the numbers I find on the web)00:03
wpwrakvery light :)00:03
wolfsprauldo you have a scale?00:03
wolfspraulthe silicone keyboard is quite heavy, ca. 250g00:03
wolfspraulour retail box is squeezed tight at 2000g, we have like 10g left or so ;-)00:03
wpwrak95.4 g00:03
wolfspraulwow, less! good00:04
wolfspraulI will investigate that, sounds like replacing the silicone keyboard with something like that could be an option00:04
wpwrakit's about 15 x 6 cm. pocketable00:04
wolfspraulespecially if we can find a cheap no-name but good quality source00:04
wpwraklimitations: 1) rechargeable battery, so it has limited life expectancy. 2) RF, so it may not be safe to use for performances. 3) pretty much all the M1's keyboard shortcuts aren't accessible. but IMNSHO that's more a result of a peculiar choice of shortcuts ;-)00:07
wolfspraul#3 is not a problem, just reminder00:07
wolfspraul#2, don't know00:07
wpwrakand, and 4) small. can get lost. you can "park" the usb dongle inside the keyboard, so at least it won't be a loose bit that gets lost even quicker00:08
wolfspraulI'm not worried about that right now00:08
wolfspraulbiggest problem for me is price00:08
wolfsprauland the fact that there's a battery inside, creating customs problems sometimes00:08
wpwrakgood features: 1) has keyboard and mouse. 2) does not waste desk space ;-) 3) keys have backlight00:08
wolfspraul(though only on paper, we have been advised to simply not talk about the battery in the remote control, for example)00:08
wolfspraulpaper meets real life00:09
wpwraki one ordered a few li-ion batteries from digi-key. something like five cr2032-sized thingies. the labels on the box looked as if it contained bomb parts.00:09
wolfspraulcan the battery inside the rii recharge? is there a way to use a usb cable directly?00:10
wpwrakthe usb cable is only for recharging00:10
wolfspraulthat's not very practical00:11
wolfspraulso if your battery runs out in an emergency, what do you do?00:11
wpwrakit runs quite a while without recharging. at the rate at which i use it, it lasts for weeks if not months00:11
wpwrakyou plug it into usb power00:11
wolfsprauland then wait? or can you use it right away?00:12
wolfspraulcan you plug it into the 2nd plug on m1?00:12
wpwraknot sure. it may need a few seconds. i don't think you have to wait long.00:12
wpwraksure. or a laptop. whatever.00:12
wolfspraulok but m1 also - it works?00:13
wpwraki haven't tried, but there's no reason it wouldn't work. it's just power :)00:13
wolfspraulso we can assume it works00:13
wolfspraulif we include something like that, we can remove the IR control00:13
wpwrakheh ;-)00:14
wolfspraulI don't want to remove IR itself, it may have use in the future00:14
wolfspraulI mean the sensor on m100:14
wolfspraulbut the remote can go, it's not very good anyway (no custom printing), and would require a lot of work to do better (just sourcing and details, for example no backlight right now etc)00:14
wpwrakif we reassign some of the keyboard shortcuts, the rii would make a more than suitable remote control, yes00:14
wolfspraulyes and we can focus00:14
wolfspraulthe remote control is one of the things that causes me headaches00:15
wpwrakrange is a bit limited. something like 2 m. but some may consider that a feature :)00:15
wolfspraulnot practical/good (not that anybody would care :-))00:15
wolfspraulI don't like the tactile feedback of our remote control, and that there's no backlight00:15
wolfspraulI don't like that it doesn't have milkymist-specific printing, so the symbols are all random and wrong00:16
wolfspraulwe are buying them from a strange reseller in taipei, it is difficult to find a good vendor because little innovation in that space00:16
wolfspraulthat means it's even expensive, I think we paid 4 USD or even more for this thing00:16
wolfspraulmaybe even 600:16
wolfspraulso maybe we kick out remote + silicone keyboard, and add a rii remote instead00:17
wpwrakand you may even save money ;-)00:17
wolfspraulit's lighter, much more suitable to our use case00:17
wolfspraulunlikely, but cost should be 10-15 USD more00:17
wpwrakat some point, you could even think about having an internal usb port :)00:17
wolfspraulwhich may be worth it if I think about how much more fun and useful the product becomes00:18
wolfspraulyou mean inside the case?00:18
wolfspraullet's do it in rc4 :-)00:18
wpwrakyes, inside00:18
wpwraki already see rc4 follow the path of pcs ;-)00:18
wolfspraulso the infrared would still be there, but would need software support to really support 'any' or at least 'more' rc5 controls00:19
wolfsprauland no remote control is included00:19
wolfspraulbut the rii kbd is00:19
wpwrakin the old days, they started with 2-4 usb ports. nowadays, we're probably at something like ten on a new pc. maybe more :)00:19
wolfspraulI like the idea00:19
wolfspraulbecause I think the protectiveness of the case is very important and valuable00:19
wolfspraulso maybe we can think about that together with the expansion system spec00:20
wolfspraulbecause it's all about mechanical and reserving space00:20
wolfspraulI will seriously investigate the rii idea now00:20
wpwrakideally, such an internal port would be located such that it's safe to place strong RF there. so one could use it for wlan or such as well00:20
wolfspraulcan't the pad of the rii also be an x/y control?00:21
wpwraknot sure if mouse pads can send absolute coordinates00:22
wolfspraulok but it's an idea00:22
wpwrakbut it's a bit on the small side for that anyway00:23
wpwrake.g., the kaossilator's pad is about 10x8 cm. and it feels like a good size. not too small. not too big.00:24
wpwrakthe rii's pad is about 3.5 x 3.5 cm00:24
wpwrakenough for mousing around, but small00:25
wolfspraulyes, but I mean little things00:25
wolfspraulwe could even *swipe* through patches!!!00:25
wolfspraulout of the box00:25
wolfspraulthat makes us one of the big guys, clearly00:26
wpwrakwe cuold do that ;-)00:26
wolfspraulevery tech CEO nowadays explains the power of his company by swiping over whatever crap they produce00:26
wolfspraulthen i can finally take m1 out of the box, hook it up, and *SWIPE* over that thingie to flip through patches00:26
wpwrakswipe and crap. sounds like very traditional technology ;-)00:26
wolfspraul-> big bucks will come in00:26
wolfsprauljust kidding, but I am thinking about the consequences of includign the rii00:27
wpwraki see that you've been working on your convince-the-investors skills ;-)00:27
wolfsprauland one would be that the little pad could be a starting point for people to play00:27
wolfsprauland yes, we could even swipe through patches :-)00:27
wpwrakin general, i don't think you want the pad to be able to do anything when in performance mode00:27
wolfspraulnot even a swipe? come on!!! please!!!00:27
wpwrakeven the touch-to-click that kicks you right back into the UI is rather annoying00:28
wolfspraulsure that's horrible00:28
wpwraksee also jon's experience with a regular mouse. it gets much worse with a pad00:28
wolfspraulbut the pad could be a starting point for play, still. why not.00:28
wolfspraulif it's a seamless experience overall00:28
wolfspraulanyway, small detail00:28
wpwrakit would be a bit of a cryptic experience. more a hackaday type of thing :)00:29
wpwrakbut yes, the great unified input event system i have i mind should support such things as well. also user-assigned keyboard shortcuts. e.g., to select patches. T for tornado, S for starpainter (pleiades), P for pac man00:30
wolfsprauljust checked, I paid 4.18 USD for each of 90 remotes00:41
wolfsprauland that was partially out of frustration already because I couldn't get all the things I wanted with great tactile feedback, backlight, milkymist printing, etc. so I just gave up and included *something* that at least technically worked.00:42
wolfspraulgoing back to the remote and fixing it by killing it sounds like a fair revenge00:42
wpwrakhow much was the rubber keyboard ?00:45
wolfspraullaughable cheap, I think 2.70 USD or so00:48
wolfspraulunbelievable if you cut one open and think about all the parts and work steps00:48
wpwrakamazing indeed00:49
wpwrak(short cable to header) something like this: http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/AK674-R/AE10179-ND/111964000:59
wpwrakor this http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/AK674-8/AE1162-ND/30856601:00
wpwrakwithout the slot bracket01:00
wpwrakor if you like fancy, with it :) and make room for a mounting screw somewhere01:01
wpwrakM1 will get crowded ;-)01:01
wolfspraulno no01:01
wolfspraulyou are too fast. I had something else in mind, need to search (but not now, sleep has priority)01:01
wolfspraulbut the idea of internal USB is great imho, reuses the case01:02
wolfspraulexecution is difficult :-)01:02
wpwrakmaybe you're thinking of something like this: http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/ZX40-A-5S-75-STDAJ/H11576-ND/178710301:03
wpwrakor perhaps one of these: http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/10-00650/839-1106-ND/276632701:06
wolfspraulthey should also exist in 'internal' variant, without all the plastic01:06
wpwrakblack and not white, so we won't get sued by apple :)01:06
wolfspraul9 USD - woho01:06
wolfspraulhow about 10 cents :-)01:07
wolfspraul(china background, I know)01:07
wpwrakthe second set if cheaper. but still USD 2 at volume01:07
wolfspraulfor a good one - 1.50 USD01:07
wolfspraulsure it's an external one, lots of specs to meet01:07
wolfspraulimagine like this, yes, but without all the external protection and plastic01:07
wpwrakyeah, haven't found anything like that at digi-key01:08
wpwrakof course, a bit of plastic can be handy if the thing gets loose01:08
wolfspraulthis could give a good mix of features when used inside01:09
wolfspraulthe micro connector uses less board space01:09
wolfsprauland the short cable gives mechanical flexibility01:09
wolfsprauljust one idea01:09
wpwrakperhaps you can find something that terminates in a header. should even be cheaper01:09
wolfspraulthe m1 pcb is rather subtle, you probably wouldn't want big and clunky external things fly around there01:10
wpwrakheader vs. mini/micro usb should be similar in terms of mechanical stress01:13
wolfspraulyes I guess it could also just be a header01:13
wpwrakheader would have the advantage that the simplest variant already faces up01:14
wolfspraulwe could probably as easily go from a header to a full-size A or micro-A01:14
wpwrakthere are also tiny adapter boards in industry that do just that01:15
wpwrakjust saw some in c't the other day. some EUR 5 retail.01:15
wpwrakfemale 2x5 header to dual USB A female01:15
wpwrakan adapter board would also provide mechanical support. although imperfect01:18
wpwrakwell, whatever it will be. nothing your markets in china wouldn't be full of :)01:26
GitHub9[scripts] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Zum2ZQ03:03
GitHub9[scripts/master] update rtems cvs always have problem. disable it for now - Xiangfu Liu03:03
wpwrakxiangfu: seems that rtems is on an extended vacation, eh ? also no commits in git06:12
xiangfuwpwrak, yes. the cvs have read one and people who working on git conversion is on vacation.06:20
xiangfucvs have set as READ ONE06:20
wpwrakaah ! that makes sense then06:21
wpwrakso cvs is history now ? good :)06:21
xiangfuyes. cvs is history now.06:24
xiangfuwpwrak, Hi I would like jump to work on milkymist again. can you please give me some task. easy task :)  thanks.06:32
xiangfuwpwrak,  I would like the fix the combo keyboard mice problem. will try in next few days and give feedback.06:33
xiangfuwpwrak, last time I just read the document about HID. didn't try to write any code. :(06:33
wpwrakheh, be careful about wishing for more work :) i think wolfgang will put you formally in charge of release engineering in a few minutes ;-)06:35
wpwrakregarding HID, I was planning to do that report parsing myself. i have a big bag full of mice waiting for testing all that :)06:38
wpwrakbut something completely different that would be useful is a visual audio level indicator. like those green-orange-red bars you have on a lot of devices06:39
wpwrakthat could, for example be on the side of the sliders in the audio settings dialog06:40
wpwrakthat way, one could finally have a clear idea of what's going on with those audio signals. right now, it's pretty mysterious. sometimes things work, sometimes not, and you can only guess what may be the trouble, because there's no direct indication.06:41
wpwrakwould that something that could interest you ? it would be very useful to have06:45
xiangfu'audio indication' I will take a look of that. hope it not very hard. :D06:50
xiangfuabout release. since we have the daily build. most of the works is test. make sure there is no regression.06:50
xiangfufirst I need scp a whole 'rtems' to fidelio. since the rtems upstream cvs not working.06:51
xiangfuand before the rtems git works. will not update rtems anymore. :)06:51
xiangfuwpwrak, what is the command that revert all local cvs changes?  I think i have some change in my local rtems cvs.06:52
wpwrak(not update) there's nothing to update anyway :)06:52
xiangfuwpwrak, I would like to learn more about software develop. still have a loooooooooong way for me. sometimes  I think I am good. but when I look at you or Sebastien's code I have to say must keep learning. :D06:53
wpwraki think removing your file(s) and then updating should discard the local changes06:53
wpwrakcvs diff should tell you if there are changes06:53
xiangfuwpwrak, (rtems update) yes. in the build script it delete rtems and do a clean cvs checkout. :)06:53
xiangfuwpwrak, doing cvs diff now. that take very long time. :(06:54
wpwrak(a lot to learn) M1 is a pretty complex project :)06:54
GitHub155[flickernoise] wpwrak pushed 10 new commits to symtab: http://git.io/YUeQwA06:56
GitHub155[flickernoise/symtab] compiler: rename unique_{free,dump} to symtab_* - Werner Almesberger06:56
GitHub155[flickernoise/symtab] compiler: optionally warn if using a variable in the wrong section (WIP) - Werner Almesberger06:56
GitHub155[flickernoise/symtab] compiler: added per-symbol flags to symbol table - Werner Almesberger06:56
xiangfuwpwrak, I have a question about fpvm. how does it works? is it do float calculate on the video memory?06:58
xiangfuthe rtems cvs have problem recently .06:59
xiangfuwhen do 'cvs update' or 'cvs checkout' it will give you a lot of 'cvs checkout: [06:51:20] waiting for cvspserver's lock in /usr1/CVS/rtems/testsuites/psxtests/psx16' and stop there.06:59
wpwrakfpvm just calculates on aset of registers. the results are then picked up by flickernoise. and some of the results go to the texture mapping engine, for the distortions.07:02
wpwrakfpvm doesn't touch pixel data07:02
xiangfuthe texture mapping engine is VerlogHDL code. right?07:05
xiangfuwho send the final result to video memory?07:05
wpwrakthat's all in verilog. including the data paths to/from video memory07:06
xiangfuthe new rtems git repo will be up this weekend. so I will setup and clean the daily build after this weekend. :)07:10
wpwraklet's hope they export the things we need again07:11
wolfspraulthe Linux we have running on M1 today, does it support USB and USB hubs?08:01
wpwrakseems unlikely, considering that out interface is at a completely unexpected layer08:04
wpwraki.e., the navre hides USB from the lm3208:07
larscwolfspraul: linux only supports usb keyboards08:54
wolfspraulah but that's a start08:55
wolfspraulhow hard would it be to make that more generic?08:55
larscnavre does part of the usb protocoll handling08:58
larscso we have to write a special driver for each usb peripheral type we want to support08:58
wolfspraulhmm, ok. no fun if things just worked... :-)09:01
lekernellarsc: you just have to load a different firmware into the softusb core (this can be done by the linux driver)09:58
kristianpaulor use a bloated usb host core from opencores that claims linux support11:22
Action: kristianpaul hides11:22
stekernthe linux driver for that is rather hideous though ;)11:23
kristianpaulhw? too bloated really?11:25
stekernTo be honest, haven't looked more carefully at the rtl for it11:26
stekernI've written a driver for u-boot for it, works well enough to load a linux image from usb-stick with it at least11:27
larschm, is there a vhdl equivalent of the verilog unary logical operators?11:43
stekernafaik, no. you can do the equivalent with for loops, although it's a lot uglier than the verilog reduction operators11:54
lekernellarsc: hc_zero <= '1' when (hc_count = (hc_count'range => '0')) else '0';11:57
lekerneland the like11:57
lekernelyou can define a function if you want11:57
larschm, ok thanks12:02
wpwrakwolfspra1l: how's the icreativ front ? :)14:16
wpwraklooking at the original "A Matter Of Taste" patch ... i see a lot of per_frame_N and per_pixel_N. is such prefixes ending in a number something we should support ?14:28
lekernelwpwrak: "support" meaning "ignoring those numbers", yes14:34
lekernel(as my original compiler did)14:34
wpwrakokay. i missed that. is per_frame(_[0-9]+)? permissive enough ? or could there be other stuff ?14:35
wpwrakand is there an sane source for the original of "Unchained - A Matter Of Taste (Remix).fnp" ? all i see are dubious file hosters with no hint what version that file is14:38
wolfspra1lwpwrak: waiting for update (and busy with other tasks right now)15:14
wpwrakheh. thought you'd be more eager to explore the dungeons of milkymist ;-)15:16
wpwrakbtw, i warned xiangfu that you'll probably ask him to take over the releases (assuming coordination with sebastien. but i guess he'll be happy to be rid of that task)15:18
wolfspra1l we had that plan for a while but for some reason it's not happening15:19
wolfspra1lhave to find out why15:19
wolfspra1lI am eager, but I have too many little things right now and the update will surely be there soon.15:19
wpwrak(releases) from the outside it did look as if it had happened :)15:19
wpwrakwhat's that update ? are you rebuilding lots of things ? or waiting for someone to rebuild things ? or just downloading over a 1200 bps modem ? :)15:20
wolfspra1lis there anything new if I press the update button?15:21
wolfspra1lI think I have the current latest release15:21
wolfspra1lI could reflash something from qi-hardware.com, I think (the buildhost)15:22
wpwraki'd just download the files and m1nor them15:22
wpwrakthinking of it, i should probably set the write protection in m1nor. i leave it off deliberately for my own uses, but my use case is a bit twisted15:24
wpwrakvery interesting. the lockflash seems to mess up JTAG such that only power-cycling brings the M1 back to life :)15:36
wpwrakperhaps there's a wait-for-busy missing somewhere ...15:37
wpwrakhmm. not jtag seems to be borked. just that "supervisor" thingy in the fpga15:53
wpwrakso ... about the idea of having internal usb ...16:06
wpwrakwolfspra1l: i'd say two ports would be better than one. we may have more "permanent" things than just an RF keyboard16:06
wpwrake.g., WLAN or maybe a USB flash stick16:07
wolfspra1lI think the 100mil 4*1 male headers are sort of standardized, no?16:07
wolfspra1lI remember from many years ago that there were different pin assignments, but then they converged16:07
wpwrakyes, 4x1 or 5x1 are pretty common. the most common is the 5x2-1 you have on mainboards16:08
wolfspra1lah well16:08
wolfspra1l4 or 5 :-)16:08
wolfspra1lthe link you posted yesterday pointed to a 4x1 one16:08
wolfspra1land that was definitely meant to go to a PC mainboard16:09
lekernelwhat's the "supervisor"?16:09
lekernelthe config system?16:09
wpwrak4x1 is the minimum you need. some may add one more pin for keying and such16:09
wpwraklekernel: yes, that one16:09
wpwraklekernel: pretty funny. when i lockflash immediately after writing, then the pld reconfigure (in m1nor) works, but the  pld load (in make boot) has no effect. no matter how often i try16:11
wpwraklekernel: when i put something between the flashing and the lockflash, things change. now i get a complaint that the flash type is unknown (and then it doesn't do the locking)16:12
wpwrakmore trial and error needed ...16:12
wpwrakah. 4x2. even easier then16:13
wpwrakyou should also be able to use a 4x2 or 5x2 header with a 4x1 cable16:14
wpwrakor two such cables16:14
wpwrakmaybe behind the outermost dmx connector would be a good place. then a dongle would be above the NOR. with a little luck, it won't EMI-upset it too much. if not, we already know the NOR debugging drill ;-)16:19
wpwraknot sure how much trouble it could cause for video in. but i guess there's no way to tell without trying16:20
wpwrakoh, and i wonder if we really need transceivers there16:22
wolfspra1lwe can leave looking for space to the layout people16:26
wolfspra1lat least initially16:26
wolfspra1lsuch a header would continue with a cable anyway16:26
wpwrak(transceiver) it's not as if there was much opportunity for the signals to get distorted16:26
wolfspra1lyou mean no transceiver at all?16:27
wpwrakhow would you attach the dongle ?16:27
wpwrakyeah, just straight to the fpga. maybe we could even use the differential driver there.16:27
wolfspra1lcan we try that first by removing/shorting the transceivers we have now?16:28
wpwraklekernel: or is USB-straight-to-the-FPGA something xilinx strongly discourage for some reason ?16:28
wpwrakwe can probably do better. hook the thing up to J21 :)16:29
wolfspra1lyou mean just get one of those cables, connect to J21 and get it to work?16:30
wpwrakyeah. it's not trivial, though. the whole signal-level interface changes (apart from using different pins)16:32
wpwrakbest with a little adapter so that 5 V and GND are at the right places.16:34
wpwraki have a 4 x USB slot bracket with two 5x2-1 connectors. more than enough for some serious USB extravaganza ;-)16:39
lekernelremoving the transceivers works, but it violates USB specs wrt rise/fall times and removes one layer of protection against electrically rogue devices16:40
wpwrakso not great but a possibility16:43
lekernelmeh, not really16:46
lekernela short with the 5V pin would easily damage the fpga16:46
lekernelunless you add zeners etc.16:46
lekernelthen they add capacitance16:46
wpwrakthe lockflash lockup is a tough cookie. a detectflash before it still makes things go wrong. yet another detectflash after it makes it work. let's see if i can reduce that madness a little16:47
wpwraki think you want zeners in any case. ESD is everywhere.16:47
lekernelprotecting against ESD is different from protecting against a permanent 5V short16:48
wpwraktrue, yes16:49
wpwrakah yes, transceiver is 5 V-proof16:50
wpwrakah well, 2 USD more :)16:53
wpwrakm1nor updated. it's not pretty, but it seems to work.17:04
GitHub32[milkymist] wpwrak pushed 1 new commit to symtab: https://github.com/milkymist/milkymist/commit/3e056a90753f03a569a75bffc2b419429af06f0c17:49
GitHub32[milkymist/symtab] libfpvm: make op_not a regular operator and implement it in all cases - Werner Almesberger17:49
GitHub54[flickernoise] wpwrak pushed 4 new commits to symtab: http://git.io/CNysDA17:49
GitHub54[flickernoise/symtab] ptest.c: restored dump_regs, using new forall_syms - Werner Almesberger17:49
GitHub54[flickernoise/symtab] compiler: remove "virtual ops" concept and use op_not from libfpvm - Werner Almesberger17:49
GitHub54[flickernoise/symtab] compiler: also support equation numbers after per_vertex/per_pixel - Werner Almesberger17:49
wpwraklekernel: i've rearranged the handling of names a little. the most interesting spots would be libfpvm's headers (fpvvm.h and ast.h) and all the things i could then kick out of compiler.c17:55
wpwraklekernel: i.e., the translation from name to index has not become an access to a field in the symbol table entry, with symbol table entries replacing pointers to names17:56
wpwraklekernel: the symbol table has a "struct sym" for flickernoise and inside a struct fpvm_sym for libfpvm. the latter only contains the name so far but when i get to moving register allocation, it'll grow too17:57
wpwraklekernel: for now, all this is in branches  symtab  because i didn't know if my ideas would work out in the end. but it seems they finally did :)17:57
wpwrakah, and the new fun features are warning options on ptest (warnings aren't integrated into flickernoise yet. maybe i'll keep things simple and just make them errors)18:09
wpwrakthe warnings so far are: -Wsection   issues a warning when accessing a variable that's associated with a specific section in a different section. e.g., trying to use wave_x in a per-vertex equation18:10
wpwrakand -Wundefined  warns if using a variable that's not defined. there are two variants: old-style, where the check is done at the end of parsing. so things like  foo = foo+1  are accepted18:11
wpwrakand new-style, where the check is done immediately when accessing the variable. in the case of things like foo = foo+1 this means that foo has to be explicitly initialized. for this purpose, i allow assignments of the form foo = 0 in the initial/global section. the value must be zero for now.18:13
wolfspra1lahh danny't mail is so great!19:42
wolfspra1lI couldn't agree more with him, those are exactly 100% the kinds of things we need to work on to make m1 a bigger commercial success19:42
wolfspra1land we are, to the best of our abilities, so all cool!19:42
wolfspra1lhe already bought a total of 6 m1 btw, just for the record19:43
wolfspra1loh, and I think an rc2 as well, which he generously donated back to me19:43
wolfspra1lso make that 719:43
wpwrakis he a reseller ? or does he have other plans ?19:48
wpwrakand yes, his experience sounds very familiar ;-)19:48
wolfspra1ldanny is a hard-core free software guy, ex-fsf, involved in lots of free-whatever related things19:49
wolfspra1lhe is reselling some, campaigning, donating, renting, using, etc.19:49
wolfspra1lhe sells the rms lemote subnotebook in the US19:50
wpwrakkewl :)19:50
wpwrakrms has a laptop ? wow19:50
wpwrak(i mean design ownership, real or spiritual)19:53
wolfspra1lI'm a little worried about his mic and cam feedback19:53
wolfspra1lhardware issue?19:53
wolfspra1lprobably not, but the way it's written there makes me worry19:53
wolfspra1lsure we have no level detection afaik19:54
wolfspra1lwith usb-midi going a very good way, that could soon become the #1 wished product feature19:54
wpwrakmic and camera suck for me too. mic also seems variable. sometimes it's okay, occasionally deaf19:54
wolfspra1lno doubt about that, but is it a hardware issue?19:55
wpwrakcamera is okayish with my canon sd880 if i have a lot of light19:55
wolfspra1lright now I hope/think that it's not, but we only know for sure once we have them constantly working better out of the box19:56
wpwraki.e., i take my pretty bright lab lamp and shine it directly in the face of people :)19:56
wpwrakmay be bad settings19:56
wolfspra1lI think we shuold start with auto-sensitivity for the mic/line-in19:56
wolfspra1lbefore cam19:56
wpwraknaw, midi/IR/kbd control :)19:57
wolfspra1loh sure, I mean after those19:57
wolfspra1lthe audio and cam sensitivity are a problem19:57
wolfspra1lannoying. people expect this to be 'auto'19:57
wpwrakxianfgu asked me today if there's anything he could work on on the software. i suggested graphical level indicators for the audio dialog19:57
wolfspra1lI saw it19:58
kristianpaulmy canon camera works nice too :)20:02
kristianpaulbut the others wolfgang tested before no that bad, well cmos sucks..20:03
wpwrak"auto" may be tricky. you'll see once you have midi working. some patches have interesting thresholds that need to be met quite precisely20:03
kristianpaulbut mic i havent noticed issues, actually it was really nice how some patches react to sound you really can see it20:03
kristianpaulbut the mid treb and forgot the other variable indeed are not enougt..20:03
wolfspra1loh I'm sure it is very difficult to make this work 'well' in the sense that the user is still in control, but the software still 'snaps' sensitivity level to where the action is20:04
kristianpaulaudio people laught on me when i told that in comunlab... :(20:04
wpwrakand if you turn the volume up and down to match the unknown threshold the patch expects (they're all over the place), then you can see even a lot more ;-)20:04
wolfspra1lit needs time and steady polishing20:04
kristianpaulmixer ! no indicators ;)20:04
wpwrakyeah, no indicators. we keep on coming back to that. this seems to be the day for it, 3rd mention ;-)20:05
wolfspra1lkristianpaul: hey, of course you want to see patches react to mic :-)20:05
kristianpauland did20:05
kristianpaulwonder what/wich one went wrong to daniel20:05
wolfspra1lbut if you go through patches and play a little, you get the feeling that it could be so much better still (in a good way, it could go from good to great to unbelievably good)20:05
wolfspra1lit depends on patch and ambient sound level, I think20:06
wpwraktry tornado rain dance and play with midi4. it's very instructive :)20:07
wolfspra1lI think in many corners of the usage experience, there is room for the kind of improvement like werner showed once in his midi before-after video20:07
wolfspra1lthat's a guess of course, my feeling that it *could* be, with more work20:08
wpwrakkristianpaul: oh, and another one to play with (this time without midi): the inner working of my new computer. just use the mic. then let something hard touch the table. all of a sudden you have starts flaring up everywhere20:09
wolfspra1lthis one http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Werner_M1_MIDI_sync_before.ogv20:09
wpwrakoh, that was midi messages being lost20:10
wolfspra1l(I know this was caused by softwaer bugs, but my point is that I feel we have room for that dramatic kind of usage/quality improvement in many areas, as seen from a normal user like Danny)20:10
wpwrakoh, we certainly do20:11
wolfspra1lin 'before', it already *works*20:11
wolfspra1land if you don't know how it could be, you might be happy20:11
wpwrakyes, indeed :)20:11
wolfspra1lbut in case you settled for that, big mistake, check out what it looked like in 'after'20:11
wpwrakthat's perhaps the biggest risk with such bugs. since people have no concrete expectations of how a milkymist shuold behave, they can't tell bug from design limitation20:12
wolfspra1lsure, but after working for 2 years with Milkymist, I know we are far from design limitations almost everywhere20:14
wolfspra1lso most/all of the stuff danny mentions can be improved a lot20:14
wolfspra1lhim (or others) may not know, unless we specifically say so20:15
kristianpaulwolfspra1l: u havent play with all patches, tooo mnya for me :)20:15
kristianpaulalso some of then boring (to me) to even deserver be tested ;)20:15
wolfspra1lyes but one reason they may be boring is precisely because their qualities are hidden20:17
wolfspra1lin many ways20:17
wolfspra1lit's an endless list of things to improve, so we are best just starting with what creates the most immediate improvement, one by one20:18
wpwraklet's talk about those hidden qualities when you have midi working :)20:18
wolfspra1lyou think midi will uncover some of them, or you think I am mistaken? :-)20:18
wpwrakit will uncover them. at lest in patches that are midi-ready20:19
wpwrakwell, i should use the singular form here :)20:19
GitHub94[flickernoise] wpwrak pushed 2 new commits to symtab: http://git.io/3-4B7A20:44
GitHub94[flickernoise/symtab] compiler: off-by-one error in forall_syms - Werner Almesberger20:44
GitHub94[flickernoise/symtab] added FN variable "frame" - Werner Almesberger20:44
wpwrakthe inner workings of my new computer are now a bit less sedate20:45
wpwrakbut i think it could benefit from manual speed control20:46
frdmincAnyone around who could help me / point me to doc on how to get a DMX light working with M1/Flickernoise?22:31
wpwrakfrdminc: xiangfu would be your DMX expert. he's in china, so it's around 7 am for him. may show up in a couple of hours.22:36
frdmincwpwrak: thanks22:36
frdmincUntil then http://www.silicalighting.eu/fileadmin/data_sheets/XILINX/DMX_Beginners_guide_rev2.pdf seems like useful reading22:37
wolfspra1lfrdminc: thanks for the link!22:38
wolfspra1lwe are all beginners here :-)22:38
wolfspra1l6-page intro, nice. I will read it22:42
frdminchmm dip switch on back with on: 1 (1), 4 (8), 10 (ON/DMX) - so guessing the start address is 9 - should get friend who donated these to get me model / data sheet...22:50
frdmincWow friend got back to me quickly:22:51
frdmincThey are addressable via the dip switches on the back... the least-significant 8 bits set the start address.  One of them will be channels 1-4, the next 5-8, the next 9-12.  I forget the channel order, but the 4 channels are R, G, B, and brightness/strobe.  The brightness/strobe channel does fading from 0-127, strobe from 128-250 or so, and full-on at 255.  I would start by setting all channels to 255 and then play around to find o22:51
frdmincNow I just need to figure out what exactly all that means :)22:52
--- Fri Jan 13 201200:00

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!