#milkymist IRC log for Monday, 2012-01-09

GitHub11[migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/compare/d2d5537...bdcaeb113:26
GitHub11[migen/master] flow: actor busy signal - Sebastien Bourdeauducq13:26
GitHub11[migen/master] flow: draw network graph - Sebastien Bourdeauducq13:26
GitHub103[migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/commit/89bf704b2b1f61671381f0e7416c6f0a4a8020e914:19
GitHub103[migen/master] record: preserve order - Sebastien Bourdeauducq14:19
GitHub52[migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/commit/cef1c5d3afff6d8feeb04487ba4b30a385917d6814:22
GitHub52[migen/master] record: better exception code - Sebastien Bourdeauducq14:22
GitHub176[migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/commit/47ae303846ea0d606d0c0001a87c6d20585bfd0014:24
GitHub176[migen/master] record: cleanup - Sebastien Bourdeauducq14:24
GitHub33[migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/commit/b06e70d84966f1ae42d0f0bed75dc8fdc6a5281f15:33
GitHub33[migen/master] corelogic: FSM - Sebastien Bourdeauducq15:33
wolfspraulwhat about removing the 3 buttons to make place for more USB connectors?17:38
wolfspraul(in rc4)17:38
wpwrakyou should ask this when adam is here. i think you'll see the shine of great fireworks from the general direction of taiwan ;-)17:41
wpwrakor does roh pre-fab them ?17:41
wpwrakthat is, assemble17:41
wolfspraulroh does it17:42
wolfspraulif we need a button for some very low-level features like enabling rescue mode, we could also go down to just 1 button17:43
wpwrakthen the fireworks will come from berlin. even easier to see ;-)17:43
wolfspraulthat would also create space to go to 4 USB connectors17:43
wpwrakwe could perhaps use IR to select rescue mode. that's relatively light-weight.17:44
wpwrakbut one button for maintenance tasks sounds acceptable, too17:44
wpwrakthat could also be standby/reset/etc.17:44
wolfspraulstandby is removed and I think that's good17:46
wpwraki think there could be a place for a "real" standby. but the old logic wasn't so great.17:47
roh i think it should keep 1 or 2 physical buttons. ir i do not use anyhow18:03
rohbut to be fair, from my pov we should rather make hubs work than waste endless hours on redesigns of mechanics (even if that means work for me ;)18:04
rohafter all.. lots of keyboards etc include hubs already which means, they do not work at all atm18:04
wolfspraulif more usb would only be about bypassing the hub problem, I would agree18:05
wpwrakhubs are a separate issue :)18:05
wolfspraulbut a hub that is needed only to connect essential devices, that's a lot of clutter18:05
rohwolfspraul: thats my impression, please correct me when i'm wrong there18:05
wolfspraulright now we have keyboard + mouse, if even 1 usb-midi devices is added it's too much already18:06
rohwolfspraul: hubs ARE normal and mandatory in usb. the only ones not supporting them are we atm.18:06
wolfspraulof course we should support them18:06
wolfspraulbut that's unrelated to having more connectors on m118:06
rohnot from my pov.18:06
wolfspraulwould we need to include a hub in the box?18:06
wolfspraulI think the unit should work for the intended use case18:07
rohi would rather use a keyboard which has a hub included and connect the mouse there18:07
wolfspraulkeyboard+mouse+usb-midi = 318:07
wolfspraullater on we might support usb storage or wifi dongles, or other usb devices18:07
rohthe 'cable layout' around a mm is  messy anyhow atm. connectors on all sides means it eats around the space of 20-30cm x 20cm, even if its much smaller18:08
rohwolfspraul: are you still in .de?18:10
wolfspraulhow was the congress btw?18:11
rohmaybe we should make some paper models of different case-variants and connector placements and play it through the different usecases18:11
wolfspraulsounds like a lot of work :-)18:11
rohwolfspraul: nice.. wasnt there much, but we had quite some interresting guests in the raumfahrtagentur18:11
rohwolfspraul: i dont think so.. rather like a afternoon with some drinks and a bit of glue on fingers18:12
wolfspraulok but how could that lead to something we implement later?18:12
rohlasercutters can do paper too.. really fast :)18:12
wolfspraulthe product feels very focused to me, sure you can argue about connector position for a long time, but why?18:13
wolfspraulthe idea was just to remove 2 buttons and add 2 USB connectors instead18:13
rohwolfspraul: i work best when i can imagine well how stuff looks/works in different usecases. so if we maybe find a variant useable in the vertical or so. or some placement of connectors on 'less sides'18:13
rohmaybe not even for v4, but some later revision18:14
wolfspraulvertical - you mean make the m1 stand on the side?18:14
rohmaybe? not sure yet. i just see the tables of dj's and vj's being _stuffed_ always.. so a device eating a lot of horizontal space isnt likely to be placed there without some cleanup18:15
rohmaybe even make rackmount possible.  i mean.. what would you do to 'install' it in a club setup?18:16
wolfspraulgood point about vertical, but I think that takes us far away from the initial "how about removing some buttons to make place for USB?" question18:17
rohwolfspraul: true.18:17
wolfspraulif you ask so openly, sure, the whole shape of m1 can be questioned18:17
rohwhat i am thinking is that the corner with the buttons is the only one left which does NOT have connectors atm. so placing some there would make it even worse...18:18
wpwrak(connector positions) maybe a topic for M2 ?18:18
wolfspraulmy perspective is mostly manufacturability, yield and cost18:18
wolfspraulfor example the buttons are painful, all three18:18
wolfspraulcould we have some sort of proximity sensor that works through the acrylic?18:18
wolfspraulno hole, no mechanical that can wear out, no buttons to assemble18:19
wolfspraulI'd LOVE THAT, even for rc418:19
rohnot really precise that stuff.. and gets confused in piles of cables18:19
rohso i dont think that its a good choice for that device18:19
wpwrakroh: i don't see M1 as a rack-mounted device from the ownership perspective. also, we may consider adding a touch screen in M2.18:19
wolfspraulor a conductive stripe we glue around the top and into the case18:20
wolfspraulthere must be some way to get rid of the mechanical push-button18:20
wolfspraulin a cheap and easy way, not big redesign, touch-controller etc.18:20
rohwpwrak: huh? id rather remove all buttons and leds besides one and make it 19" to be fair.18:20
GitHub147[migen] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/milkymist/migen/commit/683e6b4a6cac98095ffff12c1e33d19e3ea1868218:20
GitHub147[migen/master] record: support aligned flattening - Sebastien Bourdeauducq18:20
rohwolfspraul: the work would be more than currently.18:21
rohglueing something conductive somewhere acryllic ... naaah..18:21
wpwrak(manufacturing buttons) i think they should be milled. it can't be *that* hard. i get quite acceptable results with wood. and that lacks structural integrity and is generally "fuzzy"18:21
rohi'd rather not try that18:21
wolfspraulif we have 1 button, and only for rescue cases, it might be enough to make a small hole in the acrylic, and tell people to use a thin pen or so for pressing18:22
rohwpwrak: milling is a possibilty, but also a lot of work (and needs difficult to get material (weird thickness acryllic))18:22
wolfspraulthen no more acrylic button either, just the push-button inside18:22
rohwolfspraul: thats sucks. hw needs a reset/powerbutton.18:23
lekerneli'm for the capacitive touch sensor through the acrylic18:23
rohits bad style not adding one18:23
rohlekernel: you obviously never played around with capsense.18:23
lekernelactually I did, with the small avnet spartan-3a board18:23
wolfspraullekernel: do you have a particular module in mind? url?18:23
rohi wasted days on implementing capsense and its annoyingly tricky to get even ONE button reliable. and it depends majorly on component and spacing tolerances.18:24
wpwrakroh: you could mill also the button surface. it'll change the appearance, but you can probably make this look intentional.18:24
rohwpwrak: still i need thicker acryllic for that.18:24
wolfspraullekernel: how do you feel about removing 2 buttons to make place for 2 more USB connectors?18:24
roh4.5mm we currently use18:24
wpwrakroh: anything >= 5 mm will do18:24
lekernelwhy 4 USB connectors? 3 are enough, no?18:25
wpwrakroh: 4.5 mm ... maybe. it'll be "sunk" but may work okay18:25
rohwolfspraul: >4.5 looks weird because fo sticking out too much18:25
wpwrakmy wooden buttons are about 4.75 mm18:25
lekerneland those three buttons are actually used in the software18:25
wpwrakroh: (> 4.5 mm) you mill of what you don't like :)18:25
roh .oO(we wouldnt have this discussion at all if we had usb-hub support)18:26
wpwraklekernel: 4 dual usb take up about as much space as 3 single ones. and they're probably more robust, mechanically18:26
wolfsprauldinner, bbiab18:26
wpwrakroh: you still don't want to have to carry around an extra usb hub :)18:27
roh-> shower and lab18:27
wpwraklekernel: for USD 500 screensaver mode ;-))18:27
rohwpwrak: they are built into keyboards. nobody i know besides lekernel uses that wobbly rubber thing we ship out.18:27
lekernelroh: btw what's going on at the agentur those days?18:27
rohlekernel: diverse stuff... mostly we are happy about a bit of quiet time after the rush of xmas and congress18:28
lekernelroh: ...and before xmas?18:28
rohwork, infrastructure improvements etc18:28
rohthere is always something to do18:28
lekernelsounds very fuzzy18:28
rohit is. its not like a company where you can assign tasks and stuff gets done18:29
rohthere is an audiolab now. (we got a wall built etc)18:30
roh2 rooms, one for preproduction, one for live stuff (radio)18:30
lekernelyou're starting a radio?18:31
rohwe somehow inherited one.. or rather the bootlab brougt it with them.18:31
lekerneloh, so the bootlab really exists? :-)18:31
lekernelthat's the thing rumored to be at tacheles, right?18:32
wpwraklekernel: they're probably still busy building the subterranean biohazard level 6 lab ;-)18:32
rohbootlab is a eV which now resides inside raumfahrtagentur, and they do some hours a week on 88.4 fm18:32
rohbootlab was at tacheles once, and before raumfahrtagentur, they had their own small room in stattbad18:32
lekerneland which none of the dozen or so tacheles people I asked about has heard of :-)18:33
wpwrakroh: (usb hub) don't count on every keyboard one will use there to have a hub18:33
rohhrhr... i woudlnt say tacheles is 'managed' somehow18:33
rohwpwrak: i dont. but i know that people have such stuff anyhow and its integrated into a lot of devices. even the kinect has one inside separating 3 devices18:34
rohi bet there are even usb-midi devices consisting of more than one usb device and a 'hub', even when there are no additional external sockets18:34
wpwrakroh: i'm not arguing that we shouldn't support usb hub. just that it doesn't replace the usefulness of having more built-in USB ports18:34
rohwpwrak: true. but you can see how reworking the whole socket setup could make sense, right?18:35
wpwrakyou mean away from the "connectors everywhere" approach ? of course18:36
rohi would rather have 2 usb sockets and buttons on front and ALL sockets on the back if ever possible. (and of course 2x usb on the back also)18:36
wpwrakbut that sounds like an M2 task18:36
wpwrakmassive redesign18:36
wpwrakyou'd probably also want to move to a more solid case. and panel-mounted connectors. etc. quite a bit of work18:37
wpwrakand i think a touch screen, 7" or maybe even a bit larger, would be part of the equation :)18:37
rohi know that m1 get where it is now though lots of small iterations over time.. maybe its time to think about it from 'the outside' and redo some (mechanical) details before continuing18:38
rohtouchscreens fail massively in the creative areas.18:38
rohreasons are the same they worked so bad for openmoko, but worse since they are bad in timing and precision18:38
rohalso they are expensive and would drive price up not down, even when only a small percent of users needs em.18:39
wpwrakroh: these folks seem to disagree: http://www.jazzmutant.com/lemur_overview.php18:39
rohi see the mm as a 'vj gpu hardware' .. make some seriously workable webinterface.18:39
wpwrakroh: they "failed", but only because there's now a flood of cheap tablets18:40
rohthey ALWAYS have a notebook with them anyhow.18:40
rohwpwrak: which dont work well (i reversed some dozend of tablets already and they quite honestly suck for the biggest part)18:40
wpwrakmilkymist does have a use case for local control input and local feedback. even if you have wonderful midi controllers.18:41
lekernelroh: speaking of stattbad, do you have a clue how much this is going to cost? http://www.residentadvisor.net/event.aspx?31111818:41
rohwpwrak: lemur is an 'input device'.. you cannot compete with that18:41
rohlekernel: not sure.. you mean on the door?18:41
wpwrakroh: i mean the touch screen as a input device. well, and a bit of status display18:41
rohlekernel: maybe 10-15E? but if you are there earlier i could get you in touch with the guy doing vjing for the builing18:42
wpwrakroh:  the use case would be: 1) all the controls you don't assign to external devices, 2) navigation (image/patch selection)18:42
wpwrakroh: no virtual keyboard or such nonsense. well, at least not for any relevant functionality.18:43
rohwpwrak: you see.. i'd rather use vga only for beamer output, no ui whatsoever, put that on the web.18:43
wpwrakroh: vga for the visual output. built-in screen for control. right now, we have everything time-divided. the best we can do with the current approach would be an overlay. but that wouldn't be available in performance mode, only when developing.18:44
rohi still think built-in screens are too expensive for us.18:45
rohwhy not let others make that investment and the users 'use a tablet' ?18:45
wpwrakroh: seems that you can get retail iphone screen assemblies for ~USD 100.18:46
wpwrakusing a tablet would be an option, yes18:46
rohwpwrak: thats not a screen but a toy. expensive toy18:46
rohand you still would need another 'gpu' for it. and pins for driving it18:46
rohwith a tablet you could go onto the floor and 'work' from there18:47
rohthats why i seperate 'user interface' from 'the box with all the cables' in my thinkning.. it makes things so much more flexible18:48
wpwrakadvantage: hw off our back. no need to write sw infrastructure. drawbacks: mechanically less tidy. connectivity tricky. need to develop for android and/or the democratic people's republic of apple18:48
lekernelwpwrak: just use a web interface18:49
rohwpwrak: the webinterface would be some xmlrpc or json control interface, the rest is html, css and 'images'18:49
lekernelyou can do tons with javascript and ajax those days18:49
wpwraklekernel: that would probably take away the controls18:49
rohack. drive the xmlrpc (which then also native apps for droid and iOS could use)18:49
rohi'd only leave a legacy ui in the mm for set-up-times before the event18:50
rohlekernel: btw.. i really need to get you in touch with the guy from stattbad. he is really interrested into talking with you about mapping18:51
rohthats something people waste the cpus of multiple macbooks with atm. just for doing some transformations and clipping before pushing stuff to the beamers18:52
lekernelok ...18:53
rohwpwrak: btw.. lemur seems to have removed its display and is avail now as iOS app18:56
rohnot sure if they sell hw still or its only a piece of sw now18:56
wpwrakroh: as i said, the tablets killed them. too hard to compete with mass-produced hardware.18:57
rohtrue. i hope we learn from that ;)18:59
lekernelroh: so what do you propose?18:59
rohnot building input devices for now. do the rendering/backend part properly if we want to sell hw.19:00
rohput input interfaces where artists like them to be/make it flexible19:00
rohlet them use whatever midi/osc/dmx stuff19:01
rohneed to run, bbl19:02
wpwrakfor now, we don't have much of a choice anyway19:03
wolfspraulI agree with roh but I also think that advocates more USB ports19:04
wolfspraul(will read back the entire thread in a bit)19:04
wpwrakhard to tell. if you want to make an external tablet part of the equation, you need to solve a few integration issues. not sure how well they work with just USB. or whether they can even run with USB power.19:05
lekernelimo web interface with modern javascript/ajax is the way to go19:06
wpwrakthey come from a world where even tethering is a forbidden fruit. so my expectations are low.19:06
lekernelalmost no android/apple specific development to do19:06
lekernelcan't they connect to any wireless access point?19:06
wpwrakyes, they have wireless. then you need to add that to milkymist. plus all the configuration issues.19:07
rohwpwrak: routers dont cost real money. 20-25E for something which can ap mode, briding from ethernet. don't build it yourself.19:09
wpwrakand i have my doubts about web interfaces. the more demanding they get, the more compatibility issues you find. too many moving parts.19:09
wpwrakroh: so you'd have a stack of PCBs ? Mx plus an OEM router. is there a long-term stable wireless router PCBA on the market ?19:10
rohwpwrak: i wouldnt integrate the router19:10
wpwrakkewl. yet another small box to carry around.19:11
rohmaybe package one if customers really ask  for it.19:11
wpwraksee, that's the problem with using off the shelf tablets. you save the manufacturing work but integration explodes into your face.19:11
rohwpwrak: people do anyhow.19:11
wpwrak(do anyhow) i don't see many people carrying wireless routers around19:12
rohno, but shitloads of cables, input devices, etc. and a notebook/tablet regardless of what you add on features.19:13
wpwrakyou're describing a scenario where the milkymist doesn't add value19:15
wpwrakmilkymist offers integration. if you assume that people are happy with an IT/multimedia device zoo and a killer laptop on top of it, then they probably don't need milkymist19:16
rohless devices isnt everything. it already would mean 'no usb-midi/usb-dmx' interface if you can make the mm do that from ethernet19:16
wpwraknothing attractive speaks ethernet19:17
wpwrakdo you even have ethernet cables at the dj/vj desk in your clubs ?19:17
rohyes. at an increasing number19:17
wpwrakhow many out of how many ? :)19:18
wpwrakand how much time does your average visiting VJ spend setting up their equipment ?19:19
rohi dont have numbers. and _a lot_ of time.19:20
rohany reduction there is your product-gain19:20
rohalso the part of 'realiabilty19:20
wpwrakyup. it all derives from simplicity19:21
wpwrakintegration increases simplicity (for the user)19:21
rohthe latter is what i see as the strongest point. control-sw on notebooks fails. setups on notebooks fail. if you can reduce the notebook part to 'a working webbrowser' you increase the productivity from the start a lot.19:21
rohit makes the 'control device' much more replaceable with ad-hoc equipment19:21
wpwrakthen you get "plugin the wrong version" ;-))19:22
rohin case of a notebook you need... one ethernetcable. in case of tablet you need.. an accesspoint.. which is as big as a pack of cigarettes nowadys (you know fonera?)19:22
rohwpwrak: dont make anything depend on plugins then. just use what works in chrome, ff and it will work.19:23
wpwrakremember that you still need interactive graphics. and fast user input.19:23
rohwpwrak: the user interface is where setup happens, not rapid timing critical stuff. thats what dmx/midi/osc is for19:24
roha web/external interface would even improve that because you COULD work on stuff, maybe even another patch for the next set while one is rendering19:25
wpwrakyou'd want to combine the control functionality - reduce the number of devices19:25
wpwrakso you may have one MIDI controller you really like19:25
wpwrak(or none, if you're cheap or feel too avantgarde for anything but a touch screen)19:26
rohand depending on the interface to that webinterface (imagine xmlrpc or so) you can also connect client-running native apps for stuff like android and such (but i would let 3rd party/userbase do the development there)19:26
wpwrakand then you do the rest with the surface you already have for administrative tasks19:26
wpwrak(3rd part apps) your complexity increases again19:27
rohoften you only need to 'switch to the next patch' and for that even a webinterface is fast enough (one click)19:27
rohif you need more, you have a midi/whatever 'realtime' surface anyhow19:27
wpwrakbut you'll also have a bunch of "minor" controls with no good place to go. they'll still have to be responsive, though19:27
wpwraki don't see the current scarcity of controls a permanent feature19:28
rohtrue. thats why modern webinterfaces are using so much JS... moves the 'app' to the client side19:28
rohreduces response time, reduces needed ip packet traffic19:29
rohi really dont see an issue there. i can even imagine a responsive, interactive editor for mapping setups that way19:30
rohmaybe i should write that proposal down, with some graphics19:33
rohpoint is: it would not need any hw changes, so we should discuss it seperated from the hw stuff19:35
wpwraki think adding an android tablet for prototyping would be a good idea19:36
wpwraksee how it goes19:36
wpwrakfind out if you can avoid wireless and do everything (power and comm) with usb19:37
rohwpwrak: we can do that later (sw issues only)19:37
rohjust make it work via ip19:37
rohandroid has a mode to do ip via usb afaik19:38
wpwrakIP is good. there are also things for OSC, so you have a not to terribly hard start (as far as controls are concerned)19:38
wpwrak(osc) this one looks relatively sane: http://thesundancekid.net/blog/fingerplay-midi/19:39
rohbbl.. need to really run now19:39
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, did you play with the icreativ yet ?19:41
kristianpaultouch screen, YES!19:41
kristianpauland yes capacitive touch sensor works pretty nice on my avnet spartan-3a to :)19:43
kristianpaulir,, well, more carzy even, claps for the mic-in :o)19:48
wolfspraulstill not! I want to get those kicad patches behind me19:51
wolfspraulmaybe in a few hours...19:51
wolfspraulbut now I want to cleanup pcbnew plotting first...19:51
kristianpaulwell, you could drop the rescue button and move all to a keyboard19:56
kristianpaulanyway is full of buttons :)19:56
wpwrakkristianpaul: keyboard means usb. usb means a lot of sw. not nice for the rescue button.19:58
kristianpaulok, forget the button and as any rescue system just let the hole20:03
kristianpaulof course a hole in th front..20:03
wpwrakbut if we keep one button, it maybe it could work like this: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/onebutton-fsm.pdf20:33
wpwrak(a bit sketchy)20:33
kristianpaulyup plus feedback with a led20:45
wpwrakheh, luxury :)20:51
larschaptic feedback with gentle electro shocks through the button surface20:57
kristianpaulnah, for example a fast blinking led if rescue mode entered20:58
wpwrakbeware of metallic buttons caps with wires on them20:59
wpwrakit should probably just say "rescue mode" :)20:59
wpwrakwell, that could of course go wrong. considering that vga may have troubles as well. (could be the reason why we go to rescue in the first place)21:00
kristianpaulsay, yes !21:01
larschehe. when you wrote "_say_ 'rescue mode'" it was thinking of speech synthesis21:01
kristianpaulwe need a buzzer ;)21:01
wpwraksome pcs had/have voice output for bios messages. rather unsettling when you boot at 3 am and your stereo shouts at you in a distorted female robot voice "SYSTEM BOOTING"21:20
wolfspraulat an MOQ of 60pc, I got the following prices from Comtech Shanghai (official Xilinx distributor in China):23:36
wolfspraulXC6SLX45-2FGG484C 44.31 USD23:36
wolfspraulXC6SLX45-N3FGG484C 51.27 USD23:37
wolfspraulXC6SLX45-3FGG484C 56.34 USD23:37
wpwrak-N3 is 15% more expensive than -223:38
wolfspraulXC6SLX75-2FGG484C 81.02 USD23:38
wolfspraulrest even more23:38
wolfsprauland -N3 is quite rare23:39
wolfspraulI think we should stay with -2 for the time being, we have so many other good opportunities to spend our energy than on trying to upgrade to -N3 or -3. also it's clear that slx75 is too expensive, especially given that we simply don't need it right now.23:39
wolfspraulthe SLX45-2FGG484C could well be less, it's a high volume chip and they like to negotiate a little. we paid 39 USD up to now...23:40
wolfspraulbut the -N3 at 51.27 is definitely un-negotiable, it has to be ordered just for us23:40
wolfspraulso the difference from -2 to -N3 is more like 10 USD or more, plus being rare, plus creating one-time and ongoing support effort (to support both -2 and -N3 variants)23:41
wolfsprauljust sharing data points, no action take on this right now anyway23:41
wpwrakah. "special order" is a no go :)23:42
wolfspraulsure, sooner or later we will be back at the -2, which is the most common variant of SLX4523:42
wolfspraulalso in that FGG484 packaging (C=commercial, also the more common one)23:42
wpwrak(back to -2) yeah. or suffer :)23:43
wpwraklikely, both. because you can be sure that something or someone really needs those extra 20-30% speed.23:43
wpwrak(needs) or, rather, "will have developed a need"23:45
wolfspraulwell you know how it goes. "the best" is attractive, even if the comparison is relatively random.23:49
wolfspraulwhen you go to your dentist, you want him to have "the best" (currently available) x-ray machine23:49
wolfspraulthe idea that somehow you are not worthy of it and your treatment is being done on 2-year old equipment feels wrong to people, even though it's so random and they didn't say a word 2 years ago either :-)23:50
wpwraki'd actually prefer her to have a machine she knows to use :)23:50
wolfspraulyeah but you know what I mean. few people have truly absolute criteria in mind, most go with the flow.23:50
wolfspraulour entire economy is run on that, it's what finances innovation23:50
wpwrakx-rays haven't changed a lot in the last decades. the imaging has a little. but whether it's on film or on a TFT, duh :)23:50
wolfspraulso yes, the -3 has a premium23:51
wolfspraulthe -N3 is a special case, only few customers use it according to Comtech Shanghai23:51
wpwrak(go with the flow) yeah, in general we assume that newer things are better. so without better information, that's what we tend to prefer.23:51
wpwrak-N3 seems to be a hack23:52
wolfspraulimagine a car salesman trying an "the car you buy today was *BY FAR* the best 5 years ago" argument :-)23:52
wpwrak"we couldn't get the memory controller to work at that speed, so we just sell the critter for a little less"23:52
wolfspraulit would make people's minds hurt, the few that actually cared to think about that argument23:52
wolfspraulmost will still just want "the best", "the best of today" :-)23:53
wpwrakoh, i think comparison should be with choices of all ages, including the brand-new latest thingy. you just can't assume that the latest model is the best.23:54
wolfspraulyes Xilinx indeed had problems with the memory controller, I think I've heard that a long time ago when they had many months delay in moving from spartan-6 sampling to production23:54
wpwrakheh :)23:54
wolfspraulso the yield may just come out like this and -N3 is a chance to sell the chips at a few dollars more than what they could otherwise get selling them as -2 variants23:54
wpwrakdid you also inquire about that arctix[sp?] ?23:55
wolfspraulnot yet23:55
wolfspraulbut I know for sure it will be many months out until it's available23:55
wolfsprauland we are a tiny customer, and calling sales reps that have never heard of us before23:55
wolfspraulnot a good idea to ruin their patience first thing23:55
wpwrak(-N3) IF they'd work as -2 ...23:56
wolfspraulI could ask about artix-7, and I know I won't get a sample even for at least 6 months, maybe more like 1223:56
wpwrakokay. way out then :)23:56
wolfspraulI will ask when I make the first actual purchase, even if it's just a few hundred USD23:56
wpwraksebastien seemed to be restless about it, so i thought it was much closer23:56
wolfspraulI would think the first artix-7 samples are floating around right now, and as usual they go to the larges customers first, etc.23:56
wolfspraulno need to be in that battle right now23:57
wpwrakyeah. asking when ready to buy is what i prefer to do as well23:57
wpwraklet them do the testing ;-)23:57
wolfspraulwe can get process, tools, testing and so on in shape on our end23:57
wolfspraulthat will all reduce time overhead *on our side*23:57
wolfspraulnot just others are slow...23:57
wolfspraulit was an embarassing experience in the end to force Samsung out of 6 precious early high-end chip samples, and then wasting months and months on a totally overloaded and incompetent (for the task) engineering team23:58
wolfspraulwhat a waste23:58
wolfspraulnot again23:58
wolfspraulthere's a reason the early samples go to the largest and most trusted customers, let it continue that way23:59
wolfspraullike you said, it's even better for us if larger and more competent teams get them earlier23:59
wpwrakyou're talking about the 6410 ?23:59
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