#milkymist IRC log for Tuesday, 2012-01-03

azonenbergHi guys05:38
azonenbergTrying to apply a constraint to a verilog module created in a generate block05:38
azonenbergcant figure out the syntax05:38
azonenberghttp://pastebin.com/rut5t8Zn05:38
azonenbergeach Mux16to1_raw fits in a single slice05:38
wolfsprauljust unpacking my iCon iCreativ10:47
wolfspraulfirst impressions: HEAVY! :-)10:47
wolfspraulpackaging and plastics/metal all have a cheap feel to them10:47
wolfspraulcheap chinese heavy metal :-)10:47
wolfspraulbut not bad10:47
wolfspraulI'm wondering whether I can safely open it to look at the internals without damaging it right away10:48
wolfspraulha, ok. whatever button I press - something happens ;-)10:49
wolfspraulthey know how to please the dummies10:49
wolfspraulall red though, tiring10:50
wpwrakhehe ;-)11:28
wpwrakand yes, you can open it. you'll be impressed by the amount of chips on that pcb :)11:28
wpwrakthere's one chip for usb, one for the touch screen, the mcu, plus a few more i didn't bother to try to identify. perhaps led drivers.11:29
wpwrak(cheap) you should try the korg nanoKONTROL for comparison :)11:31
wpwrakif you have a recent build installed (soc and all), then turning the knobs etc. should produce variable changes in the MIDI dialog11:34
GitHub78[scripts] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/LZRgcA12:26
GitHub78[scripts/master] format make-up, fix one type on AR - Xiangfu Liu12:26
wpwrakxiangfu: btw, do your builds also track changes in SoC, FPGA, etc. ? wolfgang will need usb-midi soonish, and i'm not sure what he should install12:32
xiangfuwpwrak, the build track changes on all git repos about Milkymist under github: '/milkymist' '/flickernoise' '/autotest-m1' '/mtk' '/rtems-yaffs2' '/liboscparse' 'script'12:35
xiangfuwpwrak, I should add the wernermisc. since there are some patches in your wernermisc. :)12:35
wpwrakxiangfu: and you also rebuild the SoC (soc.fpg) ?12:36
wpwrak(patches in wernermisc) hmm, hopefully only very few :)12:37
xiangfuyes. rebuild all images that needs by m1.12:37
xiangfuyes. sure.12:37
wpwrakexcellent, thanks12:37
xiangfumaybe we can add another one about ftpd.12:37
wpwrakfped ?12:38
xiangfuwpwrak, this one: http://www.rtems.org/pipermail/rtems-devel/2011-December/000087.html  fix the ftpd root path.12:38
wpwrakah :)12:38
xiangfuone small patch about rtems ftpd.12:38
xiangfuthis setup the ftpd root to /ssd :)12:39
wpwrakhmm, page doesn't want to load here :-(12:39
xiangfuwpwrak, sending you by email.12:40
xiangfumaybe rtems server problem. I can't open it either.12:42
wpwrak:)12:43
wpwraklet's see if cvs update works ...12:44
wpwrakapparently not ;-( ah well, without update then12:49
wpwrakoh .. no, now it's doing something. very very slowly. let's see how this goes ...12:49
GitHub118[flickernoise] wpwrak pushed 7 new commits to master: http://git.io/g0xKnA13:03
GitHub118[flickernoise/master] test/Common: change indentation from 4 spaces to 1 tab - Werner Almesberger13:03
GitHub118[flickernoise/master] test/Data/flame.fnp: reformatted "Krash - Digital Flame.fnp" with new syntax - Werner Almesberger13:03
GitHub118[flickernoise/master] compiler: added constant folding of sqrt() - Werner Almesberger13:03
wpwrakxiangfu: rtems patch stack updated. thanks !13:21
xiangfuthanks :)13:21
wolfspraulwpwrak: how do I open the iCreative? I cannot seem to find the screws13:32
wolfspraulare they under the feet?13:32
wpwrakyup13:33
wpwrakaren't they always ? :)13:33
kristianpaulmay cover by..13:44
kristianpaulsticker?13:44
kristianpaulfoam-like thing?13:45
wolfspraulsb0: hi there ;-) happy new year!15:04
wolfspraulwe sold another milky yesterday, always nice...15:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: so how is the icreativ analysis going ? :)19:14
wolfspraulonly randomly pressing on buttons once in a while now19:18
wolfspraulI'm trying to uplevel the kicad cmdline patches and focus on that a bit19:19
wolfsprauland I hope the lv3 will arrive tomorrow19:19
wolfspraulso far so good with the icreativ ;-)19:20
wpwrak(patches) great !19:20
wolfspraulno multi-touch19:20
wolfspraulI'm not impressed with mechanical quality and tactile experience19:20
wolfspraulin other words - if *that's* the midi-controller category, then it will rightly all go away in favor of tablets :-)19:21
wpwrakyou'll see the great weakness of the icreativ with the pacman patch. http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/tmp/curiosity/19:21
wolfspraulI see a lot of weaknesses already :-)19:21
wolfspraulfor now - if I would have a free option between the icreativ and a similar software running on an ipad, I would prefer the ipad19:22
wpwrakthe mechnical quality is good for the price range (as far as MIDI devices are concerned). but yes, it has its obvious shortcomings19:22
wolfspraulbut that's very early, I haven't used it yet and I definitely will19:22
wolfspraulI can only tell over time whether I start to really *like* this thing or not19:22
wolfsprauloh my feedback is super early, just because you ask19:23
wpwraki think tablets will be worth looking into, yes19:23
wolfspraulwell, I think if mechanical quality is good, maybe that will be superior to tablets19:23
wolfspraulbut I don't see that with the icreativ right now19:23
wpwrakelements the icreativ has that are missing in a tablet are the encoders and the faders. not sure how well an emulation will do. it's probably hard to emulate encoders. the fader may be okay.just needs a bit of space.19:25
wpwrakthe touch pad of the icreativ has about the same size of a 7" tablet. so you can imagine how to arrange the controls there19:26
wolfspraulsure19:27
wpwrakone thing you may want to investigate when back in china would be the price of ipad replacement screens, and how easy it is to find/translate documentation on the interfaces19:27
wolfspraulbut if I see myself using the icreativ, and 'the other' vjs have an ipad, I know I am old19:27
wpwrak;-))19:27
wolfspraulunless retro is my style19:27
wolfspraulisn't it true?19:27
wpwrakthe icreativ is pretty new :)19:27
wolfspraulyes it's just my impression19:28
wpwrakand i'm sure you can whack an ipad to pieces with it, while the opposite probably doesn't work :)19:28
wolfsprauland some people like to use old-school stuff19:28
wpwrakmechanical feedback has its benefits in dark rooms19:28
wpwrakthe build quality of the icreativ defeats this to some extent, but still. perhaps the ideal solution would be a pad with buttons on the small sides.19:30
wpwrakthat way, mode switches could move to a "safe" place and there would be more room for controls19:30
wolfsprauldon't get me wrong, I like it19:31
wolfspraulbut it's my FIRST THOUGHTS19:31
wolfspraulit feels old, the heavy metal etc.19:31
wolfspraulindustrial19:31
wolfspraulpinball machines19:31
wolfspraulI'm not sure whether that's enough of a niche for the product19:32
wpwrakheavy may be a design feature. also the kaossilator is a bit on the heavy side. i think djs and vjs may like their equipment to stay in place19:32
wolfspraulsure some people like this style and ruggedness, but how long. and why exactly? a notebook with usb mouse of course is horrible on stage19:33
wpwrakyeah. i could see this fail in many ways ;-)19:33
wpwraki think an M2 with built-in tablet and buttons could be quite nice19:33
wpwrakalso with a more solid case -> also the weight increases19:34
sb0wolfspraul, happy new year!19:35
sb0back home tomorrow. been exploring kilometer-long abandoned steel factories lately, quite a holiday :-)19:36
wolfspraulhe19:37
wolfspraulthen I wish a good trip back now - travel safely19:37
wpwrakwolfspraul: i looked a bit at android tablets available in argentina. there's basically a < USD 200-300 segment with resistive screens and a > USD 300-400 segment with capacitative screens. not sure if a resistive screen (= no multi-touch) would be sufficient for our purposes. something for future exploration.19:38
wpwraksb0: you're looking for the new year in very odd places :)19:39
wolfspraulI think most of them will disappear19:39
wpwrakprobably19:39
wolfspraulwe are early in that category19:39
sb0use a wacom-style sensor :)19:42
sb0seriously it's 'just' a piece of PCB with an array of printed coils19:42
sb0(...and some control electronics and software)19:42
wpwrakdo they make them for fingers now ?19:43
sb0no but we can perhaps have a wiimote-style pen instead19:43
wpwrakyou'll not make many friends with a pen :)19:43
sb0ok, call that a 'magic wand' then :-)19:44
wpwrakthen it'll be big enough to break the display :)19:44
sb0or conducting baton19:44
wpwrakand if you go wacom, you either need to OEM one of the very few display and tablet combos with such features or you need to do those finicky mechanics yourself19:45
sb0finicky?19:45
sb0stuffing a PCB right behind a LCM isn't finicky19:46
wpwrakwith a regular touch screen (res or cap), you can simply get a premade assembly. no dust/dirt issues, minimum calibration, ...19:46
wpwraki don't think pcb behind lcm really works :)19:46
sb0that's how wacom does it19:46
wpwrakso how do they deal with the lcm messing up the fields ?19:47
sb0look, many highly successful products had innovative UIs - wiimote, kinect, iphone ...19:48
sb0can we just follow with a second-class resistive touch screen?19:49
sb0or will it be another M1?19:49
wpwrakmaybe we should have an ass-operated pad then. i think that sector is still under-innovated ;-)19:49
wpwraki''d focus on usability. use the tech that gives the best result. if resistive is enough, great. if it has to be cap, then so be it.19:50
wpwrakwith a pen/stick/baton, i see the problems that it a) requires too precise handling and that b) you're always at risk of losing it at the wrong moment19:51
wpwrakyou could of course have a huge baton, more like the torches jugglers use, but that would kinda change the category19:51
wpwraknaw, i'd say the fewer moving parts the better. and especially not moving small parts. no dongles, no pens, no loose covers, ...19:53
wpwrakoh, and resistive pads can measure pressure. not sure if the capacitative ones do that yet.19:58
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