#milkymist IRC log for Friday, 2011-11-25

aw_wolfspraul, here last one customer bought from Taipei she wanted me to prepare some video files for them. they are preparing to show this Milkymist One in next week in Brasil.02:52
wolfsprauldon't understand02:52
aw_so I need to prepare them firstly then cc to you. ;-)02:52
wolfspraul"prepare some video files"?02:52
wolfspraulsure sounds great02:52
aw_like retail box opening to understand how to use M1, this was done by Lekernel already. and some use case of applications we promoted.02:54
aw_so even Werner's great video yesterday. ;-)02:54
wolfspraulso you send them a collection of links to videos?02:55
wolfspraulalright :-)02:55
aw_also includes our official site, she told me that if someone in the conference may ask to buy. ;-)02:55
wpwrakhmm, just did a cvs update and re-applied my quilt stack. the rtems folks don't seem to be in much of a hurry to fix those bugs. or is there a hidden branch where they keep all the goodies ?08:07
wpwraklekernel: soc11_2.diff should also go on my stack, right ?08:09
wpwrakadded, thanks !08:23
wpwrakby the way, how are we building rtems these days ? my approach is rtems cvs plus my patch stack. lekernel, xiangfu_, is what you use equivalent ?08:27
wpwrakand a question about instrumenting the SoC for "exporting" signals: what do you use ? do you pass things through the hierarchy, do you use fpga_editor, something else ?08:36
lekernelI don't have a logic analyzer, so I don't usually do that08:39
wpwrakah, i see. well, even with the scope it may be useful08:40
lekernela good way to do it would be a little script that manipulates the FPGA using XDL to reroute any net to I/O08:42
wpwrakhmm. script sounds good. i was pondering the idea of a script that edits the sources. but hacking a later stage would have its advantages, too. with xdl, do you mean the file format or the program called xdl ?08:44
wpwrak(or both ?)08:44
wpwrakgrmbl http://forums.xilinx.com/t5/Implementation/XDL-File-Format/td-p/2782408:45
wpwrak"As far as I know, there's nothing public about the XDL format" :-(08:45
wpwrakand so the reverse engineering begins ... again ...08:46
lekernelnah but it's super simple08:48
lekerneland regarding the question in the forum, you unroute the net by removing all pip entries08:49
lekernelyou add the pin of the I/O site08:49
lekerneland you run PAR again to re-establish the connections. it will also do the timing analysis on that modified net.08:50
wpwrakwhat does the last item on inpin/outpin mean ? C3, O, DOB4, ... ?08:50
lekernelit's the name of the pin within the site08:51
lekernele.g. an IOB site has multiple pins for input, output, tristate enable, etc.08:51
wpwrakaaah, so it's always O. excellent :)08:51
lekernelI told you it was easy :)08:52
wpwrakdoes the order of things in the .xdl file matter ?08:53
lekernelwhat is a little annoying is finding the good configuration options for the IOB, but you can simply copy and paste from a working design08:53
lekernelnot afaik08:53
wpwrakyeah, copy and paste rules :)08:53
wpwrakwonderful. about running par, if i just do it between system.ncd and system-routed.ncd, no extra par run should be necessary, correct ?08:56
lekernelthere's better than that08:57
lekernelyou modify system-routed.ncd and you unroute the only net you have modified08:57
lekernelthen PAR will only route one net, which takes only a few seconds (most of them spent loading the bloated libraries)08:57
lekernelin system.ncd there are no pips at all (everything's unrouted)08:58
wpwraksystem.ncd just looks like a simple netlist08:59
wpwrakand what's a pip ? :)08:59
wpwrakhmm, the pips look more difficult. let's keep that for another day.09:03
wpwrakhmm. "inst" has a mysterious RIOB_X37Y124 (for dbg_rx_active going to G17). and i found another,09:09
wpwrakgit dbg_rx_pending going to G1609:09
wpwrakmaybe that's the N/P pairs ...09:09
lekernelpips are programmable switches that establish the physical connections between the site pins, by jumping from wire to wire09:22
wpwrakeek. i won't touch these :)09:22
lekernelit's not hard09:23
lekernelremove all pips from the net09:23
lekerneland re-run PAR09:23
lekernelit will nicely generate a new set of pips that reconnects all the pins - including the IOB pin you added09:23
lekernelnote that if you don't remove all pips before, it will still work (will grow from the existing routed net), but the solution can be sub-optimal09:24
lekernel(at least, I think so. probably depends on some par options, too)09:24
lekernelbut the safe way to go is remove pips before09:25
lekernelbtw, pip sets aren't even too hard to generate anyway, I have an implementation of the Lee algorithm that works (can be suboptimal timing-wise compared to the PAR algorithm, though)09:27
wpwrakso you're ready to get rid of par ? :)09:42
xiangfu_wpwrak,  (rtems patches)  working on that now. :)10:13
xiangfu_now. the build script use the cvs, no patch at all.10:14
lekernelxiangfu_: working on what?10:16
lekerneladding wpwrak's patches to your build script?10:17
xiangfu_apply werner's patch in rtems.10:17
xiangfu_lekernel, btw, I will try to create a Makefile under milkymist.git. merge all .sh file to that Makefile.10:18
lekernelremove build_bios.sh, build_bitstream.sh etc.?10:19
xiangfu_yes. create a "makefile' instead. what do you think?10:19
xiangfu_like make bios10:19
lekernelI don't care10:19
xiangfu_make bitstream10:19
xiangfu_ok. werner and me want that. :) hope I can finish that this weekend. then send a patch to mailing list.10:19
lekernelxiangfu_: btw, I fixed your DMX/MIDI/video-in detection yesterday. it was only working when the variables were used in the constant part of the patch (i.e. when written a constant value. when used read or write in per-frame or per-vertex equations it didn't work)10:21
xiangfu_I have a small patch on makefile about build 'softwareusb' 'libhal' 'bios' , sent to mailing list. just let you know.10:23
lekernelxiangfu_: btw, how do you feel about finding out why the RTEMS FTPd "root directory" option doesn't work?10:23
xiangfu_when modify softusb code. 'build_bios.sh' will not recompile the 'softusb', this small patch fix that.10:23
lekernelI'd like to set it to /ssd, and also hide non-ssd directories in the GUI10:24
xiangfu_lekernel, yes. working on that when finish the compile patch stuff.10:24
Action: xiangfu_ want more Milkymist task :)10:25
xiangfu_lekernel, just finish the nanonote release. so will have more time working on milkymist one.10:25
xiangfu_lekernel, btw. Jon try to sale the first Milkymist one in China mainland, we see. if all goes fine. we will try to setup tomorrow.10:26
xiangfu_lekernel, http://lists.milkymist.org/pipermail/devel-milkymist.org/2011-November/002208.html the small patch10:28
lekernelI have already committed it, no?10:35
xiangfu_yes. committed. thanks.10:37
lekernelwpwrak: you fixed this, right? https://github.com/milkymist/bugs/issues/1011:40
wpwrakyes, such devices should now work11:48
wpwrakHMM. are my eyes betraying me or have i just found a bug in perl ?13:15
wpwraklet's check those scoping rules again ...13:17
wpwrakah. no. all is normal. just funny scoping. phew.13:18
GitHub189[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/cICrAg13:19
GitHub189[flickernoise/master] videoin: format selection - Sebastien Bourdeauducq13:19
lekernelyou're doing that xdl thing in perl?13:41
wpwrakyeah. takes about 0.064 seconds to read the whole .xdl file and search it for the terms we're interested in13:51
wpwrakwell, that's with a hot cache13:51
lekernelanyone got a component (YPbPr) source to test?13:55
lekernelseems we're going to have another run3 errata: the red and blue connectors do not match the usual component cable colors ...13:56
wpwrakswapped ? or just way off ?13:56
lekernelI'm not totally sure about this though, the adv7181 datasheet is unclear13:57
lekernelbest way is to test and see13:57
lekernelThe input signal that contains the timing information (H/V13:58
lekernelsyncs) must be processed by ADC0. For example, in the13:58
lekernelYC input configuration, ADC0 should be connected to the13:58
lekernelY channel and ADC1 to the C channel.13:58
lekernel...and nothing about YPbPr13:59
lekernel"just guess"13:59
lekernelor, would it tell Pb from Pr automatically? is there a way to do that?13:59
wpwrakhmm. does the codec also support true RGB ? if yes, are the connectors correctly colored for that ?14:00
wpwrakand if 2x yes, why don't the YPtPr adapter's colors match ? :)14:01
lekernelaah from the example design, seems we have to connect Pr to ADC1 and Pb to ADC214:03
lekernelthat's red to ADC1 and blue to ADC214:04
lekernelwhich, from the M1 layout is AIN4 to ADC1 and AIN5 to ADC214:05
lekernelyay! they're not swapped14:05
lekerneland composite works on the 3 channels. I do not have a S-Video or component source to test ...14:13
lekernelthough I get grayscale when feeding the composite signal on Y when using S-Video or YPbPr, which is encouraging14:15
wolfspraullekernel: wait. does this mean ADC1/ADC2 are wired correctly or incorrectly?14:16
lekerneleverything seems correct so far14:16
wolfsprauldo you want me to look into the sourcing of some cable?14:16
wolfspraulyour mail was a little confusing, but I only skimmed over it14:16
lekernelconsumer s-video uses a mini-DIN connector, not RCA jacks14:17
lekernelso we need a passive adapter to use those sources14:17
lekernelwe just need to connect directly these pins to the M1 video input jacks14:18
lekerneltwo of them (plus ground)14:18
wolfspraulso it's a female s-video like in that picture on one side, and 3 component rca male connectors on the other side?14:20
lekernelno, 2 components (Y/C)14:20
wolfspraulhow many should I get now?14:21
wolfsprauljust a few to start with?14:21
GitHub78[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/9GZjyg14:22
GitHub78[flickernoise/master] cp: update video input settings when loading a performance file - Sebastien Bourdeauducq14:22
lekernelI don't know... for whom?14:23
wolfspraulme neither :-)14:24
wolfspraulfor anybody who wants to connect an s-video source14:24
wolfspraulhow much would the image quality improve?14:24
wolfspraulthe cable you are linking to in your mail is this http://www.ramelectronics.net/audio-video/video-cables/s-video-cables/s-video-to-dual-rca-cable-csv2rca10/prodCSV2RCA10.html14:26
wolfspraulbut it doesn't have a mini-din on one side14:26
lekernel As S-Video maintains the two as separate signals, but still encodes two colour-difference signals into one chroma subcarrier, such detrimental low-pass filtering for luminance is unnecessary, although the chrominance signal still has limited bandwidth, and the colour crosstalk problem is subdued. The infamous dot crawl is eliminated. This means that S-Video leaves more information from the original video intact and offers an improved14:26
lekernelimage reproduction compared with composite video.14:26
lekernelI believe the left connector on the picture is mini-DIN, maybe male... it says "s-video" ...14:27
wpwrakmaybe find out how much the cable is and if it's cheap but difficult to source outside of china, toss one in the box ?14:27
lekernel"This cable can be used in several ways: "Connecting standard consumer S-Video to Separate Y/C RCA Connections"14:27
lekernelthis is exactly what we are doing14:27
wolfspraulah true, when I zoom in I can see mini-din, looks like male indeed14:28
wolfspraulso you want male on the mini-din side, or female?14:29
lekernelmale is fine imo, so it can plug directly into the other appliance without an extra cable14:29
wolfspraulah ok, so the source (video camera etc) typically ends in a female mini-din?14:30
lekernellike that for example14:32
wpwrakoh, lovely. when i try to convert the .xdl generated by xdl back to ncd, it spits out some errors14:35
lekernelmh? shouldn't do that14:36
lekernelwhat errors?14:36
wpwrakERROR:XDL:178 - parse error in config string around line 24810 in 'foo.xdl' around token ','14:36
wpwrakfun facts: the input file is ref.xdl, the output file is foo.ncd14:37
wpwrakat these lines, there are things like  inst "videoin/dma/burstmem/mem1_do,mem2_do_sliced_1"14:37
wpwrakmaybe it doesn't like commas in identifiers14:37
lekernelI think so14:37
lekernelbut it shouldn't have put them in the first place14:38
lekernelactually I have never seen a comma in any netlist or such14:38
wpwrakthe keyword here is "should" ;-)14:38
lekernelthis is weird14:38
wpwrakmaybe i can just rename them globally14:39
wolfspraullekernel: do you have a s-video source?14:39
lekernelif you want I can open a xilinx webcase entry... they usually fix bugs sent through there14:39
lekernelwolfspraul: no14:39
wolfspraulsomehow when I google I get the impression the output would be male14:39
lekernelwolfspraul: connectors on appliances are female, and you use a male-male cable14:39
wolfspraulmaybe you then still have a female-female cable in between?14:39
wpwrak(bug) that may be a good idea. could be that this is hiding other bugs.14:40
wolfspraulwhat about a camera that has a male s-video fixed cable coming out?14:40
wpwrakbut lemme first see if i can find the offending identifiers in the sources14:40
lekernelcan you send me the .ncd? and the exact two commands that cause the problem?14:40
wolfspraulwe wouldn't be able to use that adapter cable with it14:40
wolfspraulunless we had another female-female plug in between14:40
wolfspraulso somehow I think we are better of with a female mini-din to 2*rca adapter, no?14:41
wolfspraulbecause as you said the "appliance" (in our case the adapter cable) is female14:41
wpwraknaw, just the first part. not the ,...sliced...14:41
lekernela good solution would be the equivalent of that: http://www.ilovediscount.fr/215-829-large/jack-35mm-stereo-male-vers-2-rca-femelles-fiche-adaptateur-jack-rca-audio-hifi-et-sono.jpg14:45
lekernelwith a female s-video and male RCAs14:45
wpwraklekernel: this should do the trick: xdl -ncd2xdl build/system.ncd tmp.xdl && xdl -xdl2ncd tmp.xdl out.ncd14:45
lekernelnot sure if it exists, especially with the right RCA pitch14:45
wpwrakalso happens with system-routed.ncd14:45
wpwraklekernel: the .ncd is just a regular M1 soc build, straight off git14:46
wolfspraulok, so we want female mini-din s-video on one side, and male RCA on the other side14:46
wolfspraulgot it14:46
lekernelwpwrak: yes, same problem. i will open a xilinx bug report ...14:47
wpwrakthanks !14:47
lekernelwolfspraul: the "long cable with male mini-DIN connector" is also good (and means one less thing to plug)... but it doesn't really matter14:53
wolfspraullekernel: yes but only if your source doesn't have a fixed male cable come out14:57
wpwraksince we're already adding a DVI connector in M1rc4, maybe add S-Video in and avoid messy adapter cables ?14:58
lekernelnot worth it15:00
lekernelso far, no one asked explicitly for S-Video :) it's only there because it represents < 10 lines of code15:06
wolfsprauloh no, that's a lot of work15:15
wolfspraulI much rather look for that external adapter first, especially since I haven't even done it yet15:16
wpwrakok :)15:16
xiangfuthere are many cables that S-Video --> 1 video RCA. under taobao.com.15:20
lekernelxiangfu: as my email says, these cables are not suitable15:21
xiangfulekernel, yes. most of them are male. :(15:22
lekernelno, the problem is they also convert S-Video to composite, which reduces quality15:23
xiangfuhttp://img02.taobaocdn.com/bao/uploaded/i6/T1kmGtXXhFXXXio6g9_104109.jpg_310x310.jpg  + http://img04.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/i4/11152485/T2Ue4yXk4aXXXXXXXX_!!11152485.jpg15:25
xiangfuis this ok? and I needs another two male - male RCA make it connect to M1.15:26
xiangfuit's S-video --> 4 RCAs.15:26
lekernelit's not S-Video, it's made for expansion ports of graphics cards15:27
xiangfuis that one for audio. other three for video? just want to understand.15:27
xiangfulekernel, oh.15:28
lekernelno, it generates composite and component from the expansion port of a PC graphics card15:28
wpwrakthe video dialog is getting complicated :)15:28
wpwrakhmm. there are more problems: with the ncd -> xdl -> ncd: ERROR:PhysDesignRules:764 - Slew rate not set. Since it is used for output and its IO standard is LVCMOS33, IOB comp phy_rx_data<0>.OUTBUF needs a slew rate to be set.16:14
wpwrakand the joke is not lost on me that this is actually in input16:14
wpwrakthe .xdl also says so16:14
wolfspraullekernel: thanks for catching up with Don - and he replied! great!16:19
wolfsprauluntil he stops by here - Don said he enjoyed using Milkymist One on his travels and it worked well and he has videos and patches to share with us soon...16:21
wpwrakwill be very interesting to hear how exactly he uses the M116:22
wpwrakoh wait .. that's still from xdl. interesting.16:26
wpwrak(xdl -xdl2ncd)16:27
GitHub155[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/8SLDSw16:55
GitHub155[flickernoise/master] Keyboard shortcuts to switch between composite video sources: F1/F2/F3 to select green/blue/red inputs (respectively) - Sebastien Bourdeauducq16:55
GitHub102[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/kBYlmQ17:23
GitHub102[flickernoise/master] New patches - Sebastien Bourdeauducq17:23
scrtshm... whats the currency on taobao?21:22
wpwrakwhee. the madness works ;-)23:48
mwallewpwrak: hacking the xdl to tap signals?23:49
kristianpaultell us, tell us :-)23:54
wpwraklet's see ... what shall i ask for in return ?23:55
wpwrakmaybe the soul of your firstborn ?23:55
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