#milkymist IRC log for Thursday, 2011-11-24

stekernok, so the first impressions of M1: 1) it'd be nice to have video signal out as quick as possible after pressing the power on button. The slight power on delay isn't bad, but the first time you turn it on you got a couple of seconds of wondering "is this thing working?"01:57
stekern2) a level meter next to the line in and mic in settings could be useful01:59
stekernotherwise, I got a positive first impression of it. buttons are intuitive etc02:04
stekernthe video in<->patch mixing is really cool, that's definitely the killer feature of it02:05
wpwrakstekern: (standby mode) everybody hates it but sebastien :)02:14
wpwrakagreed on 2)02:15
wpwrakthough if you add controls, it doesn't matter that much. then you can just adjust the effect there02:15
stekernyou're probably right, I haven't got that far yet02:18
stekernI've got one mouse acting up, the pointer is just flying around like crazy02:18
wpwrakare you running the original firmware ?02:19
stekernI have a suspicion it might be the sensitivity of it that is the problem02:19
stekernwell "original" as in the one that got installed after I pressed "update from web"02:20
stekern(which worked great btw)02:21
wpwrakgood. that already gets you past a few nasty problems02:22
wpwraki have a mouse that hardly moves with M1. linux likes it. so there appears to be some sensitivity magic indeed.02:23
stekernI'll take a look at it as soon as I have figured out how to tinker with this thing ;)02:26
stekernmy mouse is pretty "jumpy" when connected to a computer too, I have to adjust the "speed" setting down when using it02:27
xiangfuwpwrak, how about more buttons can be software bind to patch variables?02:47
xiangfuwpwrak, oh. midi controller can do that thing.02:48
wpwrakyes. and we need a LOT more midiN variables :)02:48
wpwrakthe LV3 alone can use something like 54 variables02:51
wolfspraulstekern: phew, I'm glad to hear overall you liked it! yuhuuu! :-)02:53
wolfspraulyou probably know how insanely hard it is to actually get a completely new product to that level...02:53
wolfspraulof course there are many rough edges but let's take it on!02:53
stekernoh, as an engineer I'm very impressed02:53
wolfspraullet's fix the next 100 rough edges now :-)02:53
wolfsprauland then the following 50002:53
wolfspraulhe he02:53
wolfspraulI think if you are not turned off by your initial impression of it, the you made it in terms of liking where this thing goes.02:54
wolfspraulcoffee now02:54
wolfspraulgood morning btw02:54
wolfspraulwpwrak: great to you hear you got your LV302:58
wolfspraulyou say it's only understood partially, but that means something goes through already?02:59
wolfspraulI thought it's full-speed and not working yet? Or is full-speed already working as well?02:59
wpwrakit sends on several channels while M1 listens only on one. but i can teach midi2osc to do a bit of remapping :)03:00
wpwrakcurrently going via the PC. we don't have usb-midi yet03:00
stekerna midi comment: channels are usually numbered 1-16 apposed to 0-1503:02
wpwrakmaybe we should use roman numerals :)03:02
wolfspraulwpwrak: how do you like lv3 mechanically?03:06
wpwrakfeels pretty good. the joysticks are very small, so you have to be careful with them03:07
wpwraknot really suitable for how i (ab)used the pad so far. but that may not be a problem03:07
wpwraki need to see how they perform for 2D03:08
wpwrakthe faders are much better quality than the junk i have on the nanoKONTROL203:10
wpwrakabout on par with the (larger) fader on the Kaossilator03:11
wpwrakthe overall feel is it's a precision instrument. that's a bit at odds with the idea that milkymist unleashes the beast inside the VJ. but let's see.03:13
wpwrakthe joysticks should be ideal for killing M1s with the original firmware (which has the queue bug). they move by less than 25 mm end to end and they move very easily. so with a little push, you can send a LOT of MIDI messages in no time :)04:01
wpwrakhmm, shouldn't i be able to ftp to the M1 ?04:13
wpwrakftp says "error creating file"04:13
wpwrakkonqueror says it can't rename the file04:13
xiangfuwpwrak, try the command line tools.04:15
xiangfuI also have problem when copy file to M1 by using 'nautilus'04:16
xiangfuold version 'nautilus' is ok. after update my system it's broken.04:16
wpwrakrenamed the file. now it works. yay ! :)04:17
aw_wpwrak, the parts for reset and usb circuits are on the way to my site. since i received shipment notice from AVNET but without Fedex tracking #.05:35
aw_I'll email AVNET for tracking #. but I think the shipment should be soon coming. ;-)05:36
wolfspraulaw_: do you have the adv7181c at your site already?05:37
wolfspraulif not - are they ordered?05:38
wolfspraulmaybe we should add that verification as well05:38
aw_the shipment includes 5pcs 7181c, so yes I surely will replace it.05:40
aw_so once I get parts, I'll replace/rework the proposed circuit of reset & usb-switch on _TWO_ rc3 boards to see if they can still work well.05:42
wolfsprauland also 7181c05:42
aw_supposedly they must be. If not, that's always my soldering problem first. ;-)05:42
wolfspraulfor the adv7181c, we have to remove some filter as well05:44
wolfspraulis it clear what exact parts need to be removed?05:44
aw_then I still need to update rc3 know issue wiki page for more histories records, but that page I included two proposed circuits for rc4 design verification already. ;-)05:44
wolfspraulI think I tried to clarify that a few times, but cannot find on the wiki page05:44
wolfspraul"capacitors and ferrite beads near the video connectors"05:45
wolfspraulaw_: do you understand what exactly that is?05:45
aw_mm...I can search them. I knew you all talked a lot then for remove alias filters.05:46
wolfspraulI think we clarified it once, searching...05:46
aw_hey...seems you wanted me do this now..phew... :(05:46
wolfspraulfound it05:49
wolfspraulJuly 27, man05:49
wolfspraulremove L14-L16 and C202-C20705:49
wpwraki thought this sounded like an issue centuries dead already :)05:50
wolfspraulaw_: sorry didn't want to disturb you, it's more that I try to cleanup and rediscover some old stuff to help you05:50
rohhm. no news from the package you guys sent me05:50
rohlast update in tracking is 2011-11-1305:50
wolfspraulaw_: should I add the link to the wiki page or you want to do it?05:50
wolfspraulroh: wait another month, it should arrive :-)05:50
aw_wolfspraul, wait...I clean up now for reset / usb for a while then i know the video circuit05:52
aw_stay tuned05:52
wolfsprauladv7181c is clear here, L14-L16 and C202-C207 should be removed entirely05:52
wolfspraulthat was discussed at length on July 27, should be safe05:52
aw_the L14~L16 need to be shorted. ;-)05:56
wolfspraulon rc3 yes, on rc4 maybe we can remove them altogether05:56
aw_and yes all C202 ~ C207 are DNP while in design verifications.05:56
aw_to remove them of not, we no rush now. just see the results after pre-rc4 verifications. ;-)05:57
wolfspraulwpwrak: if Adam can measure analog USB signals in some way - what device should he test with?06:04
wolfspraulI think it should be a full-speed device, right?06:04
wolfspraulprobably during and right after connecting such a device06:04
wolfspraulor will a low-speed keyboard also be enough?06:04
wolfspraulif it has to be full-speed - which device? can it be any usb stick?06:04
aw_cleaned up: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC3_Known_Issues#Minor_errors_and_improvements06:43
aw_there's only one about "total of 14 new leds proposed" that I don't know. ;-)06:44
wolfspraulaw_: I tell you more about that later, have to run to a meeting with Jon now06:45
aw_may be still under discussions these days. ;-)06:45
wolfspraulno worries06:45
wolfspraulopen project, always some discussion somewhere, right? :-)06:46
aw_ha..good . okay. :)06:46
aw_sure. right.06:46
aw_okay...work for another. ;-)06:46
wolfspraulwpwrak: btw, tool question06:47
wolfspraulsay Adam or anybody wants to draw a quick partial circuit/schematic as part of a discussion06:47
wolfspraulAdam is just using a pen and his hand, and then a camera and upload06:47
wolfspraulnot bad, it's quick06:47
wolfspraulis there any quick and easy tool you would propose?06:48
wolfspraulmaybe something that can convert a super simple textual expression into a graphic?06:48
wolfspraulof course it could be entered into kicad, but that looks like overhead and would certainly be slower than just drawing by hand and photographing as Adam does06:48
wolfspraulthe tool would need to compete with the speed of a hand-drawing/photo06:49
aw_wpwrak, let me know if i can help you some. ;-)06:50
xiangfuwpwrak, ^  :)07:50
qi-botThe Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-11242011-0921/10:12
lekerneltotal of 14 new leds proposed? lol10:51
lekernelI hope we won't get nasty signal integrity problems after all that BGA rerouting10:51
kristianpaullol, nice video =)11:23
kristianpaulwpwrak: those images had transparency right?11:31
kristianpaulin your curiosity video11:32
wpwrakgood morning :)11:51
wpwrakkristianpaul: no, just color on black. M1 does the transparency effect11:51
GitHub180[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/I7FohQ13:32
GitHub180[flickernoise/master] patchpool: also take PNGs and JPGs into account - Sebastien Bourdeauducq13:32
GitHub180[flickernoise/master] New patch with images - Sebastien Bourdeauducq13:32
GitHub180[flickernoise/master] patches: flatten layout - Sebastien Bourdeauducq13:32
wpwraklekernel: btw, would image rotation also be possible ? or would that get difficult ?13:39
lekernelthe TMU can only blit to a rectangular surface, so you'd get clipping13:46
lekernelalso we'd need to recompute some trig functions at every frame... the PFPU can do it, but it's a bit of work13:47
wpwrakfor clipping, i guess the image could just be placed in a rectangle with a wide enough black border ?13:49
lekernelnot optimal because the TMU will scan that black border, but you can try ...13:51
lekernelI try to avoid stuff that could drop the fps too much13:51
wpwrakhmm yes. everything has a cost ...13:52
lekernelthe proper way to do it is to use the triangle as the TMU rendering primitive but13:53
lekernel1. it is surprisingly difficult to fill all possible configurations of a triangle without bugs13:54
lekernel2. without a Z-buffer, you have problems on the overlapping triangle borders when alpha blending is enabled13:54
lekernel3. #1 not only wastes my time, but it also means that FPGA resources are spent on implementing various corner cases13:55
wpwrak1) indeed. numerical geometry is full of surprises :)13:55
wpwrak2) or more corner cases13:56
lekernel#2 is easily solved for rectangles: they are defined as the surface for which x(n) <= x < x(n+1) & y(n) <= y < y(n+1) - so there is never an overlapping pixel on a rectangle tesselation13:59
lekernelthe case for triangles is messy13:59
lekernelI guess GPUs solve it with the Z-buffer13:59
wpwrakfor triangles, you could do antialiasing. that way, the sum would also be 1. but yes, lots of work13:59
lekernelyou can still have precision problems, no?14:00
lekernelat the end you need to encode the color in the original format... which means rounding14:00
wpwrakyes, but should be small14:01
lekernelmaybe in 10:10:10 it will be small, but I expect this to be a major problem in 5:6:514:01
wpwrakhmm, maybe. the steps are kinda large, so even being off by one epsilon could stick out14:04
lekernelI'm not even sure that antialiasing would solve it14:04
lekernelif two triangles share a common edge, it will simply draw that edge twice14:05
lekernelit would only work if edges are drawn at alpha/2 transparency14:05
lekernelwhich could be a good idea, btw14:05
lekernelbut there should be a way to make sure that only shared edges are drawn at alpha/2, so the TMU can be used for "exact" blitting14:07
lekernelwhich would be useful e.g. in GUI acceleration14:07
lekernellots of work...14:08
wpwrakyou wouldn't alpha-draw the edge per se but the fraction of the triangle area that coincides with the pixel area14:08
lekerneland actually, if we know shared edges in advance, we can simply draw one with the normal alpha and omit the others14:08
wpwrakgood luck with the corners, though :)14:09
wpwrakyes, maybe there are some heuristics that yield good results without doing all that much work14:09
lekerneldoing all this stuff in verilog is also messy14:11
lekernelhttp://orcc.sourceforge.net/ could be interesting... so far I've been turned down by their focus on java14:11
lekerneland hum, well, designed by academics... eg http://orc-apps.sourceforge.net/?q=node/1414:13
wpwraki'm kinda dubious about any great unification languages14:14
wpwrakthe svn reminder doesn't sound too outrageous, though14:14
lekernelnah but I've tried to use academic tools in the past, and they're full of dead code, syntax errors, old binaries laying around (and sometimes being subtly used in place of the syntax-error-ridden code), etc.14:18
lekernelso I pay much attention to such warning signs now14:18
lekernelalso, why are they using svn and not git? only bad programmers use svn/cvs14:19
wpwrakdepends on the age of the project and the structure14:32
wpwrakthe main problem of svn is its slowness. but if you don't search around a lot and people's activities don't overlap much, it's quite bearable14:32
lekernelI don't plan to use it as a unified language btw... just as a high level tool to generate VHDL by the metric ton for complicated hardware accelerators :)15:14
lekernelI think there are good ideas in the design, even if the implementation might suck (as I can judge by those warning signs)15:15
qi-botThe Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-11242011-1432/15:23
whitequarkthat orcc stuff is interesting15:23
whitequarknot sure that I get what the "one high-level design" is, through15:24
wpwraklekernel: btw, an idea for texture mapping: i wonder if you could get away - in a useful set of cases - with treating pixels as circles. that way, the overlaps would have fewer parameters and you may be able to use optimized special-case operations for them.15:33
GitHub160[milkymist] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/SKTEuw15:34
GitHub160[milkymist/master] fpvm: new fpvm_set_bind_callback API - Sebastien Bourdeauducq15:34
GitHub54[milkymist] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/mZxNww15:43
GitHub54[milkymist/master] Update copyright notices - Sebastien Bourdeauducq15:43
kristianpaulwpwrak: had you tried it  powered it  with baterries ? the LV315:57
wpwrakit's usb-powered. no batteries.15:59
GitHub52[milkymist] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/fNnGrw16:04
GitHub52[milkymist/master] fpvm: accessor functions - Sebastien Bourdeauducq16:04
GitHub45[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/cR2Hzg16:29
GitHub45[flickernoise/master] compiler: better register allocator - Sebastien Bourdeauducq16:29
lekernelok, now we can crank up midi variables, dmx channels, etc.16:30
wpwrakmidiN += 100 ;-) let's see what your patch does ...16:54
wpwrakbut the total number of pre-defined variables, whether used or nor, is still limited to 128, right ?16:58
lekernelonly used variables are limited to 12816:59
lekernelthat's what the new register allocator does :)16:59
lekernel(actually, less than that because you need space for constants and internal variables. but much better than the previous allocator which preallocated everything)17:00
GitHub162[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/8NoEOQ17:03
GitHub162[flickernoise/master] New patch - Sebastien Bourdeauducq17:03
wpwrakhmm, need to study this later :) afk for a few hours ... bureaucracy day ...17:08
GitHub194[milkymist] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/D4dknA17:20
GitHub194[milkymist/master] fpvm: support source-only binding - Sebastien Bourdeauducq17:20
GitHub51[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/LSa8WA17:20
GitHub51[flickernoise/master] compiler: do not bind internal variables - Sebastien Bourdeauducq17:20
lekernelof course, the RTEMS FTPD "root" option has bugs ...17:25
lekernelI already fixed two major bugs in this crap ftpd, seems there's going to be a third one ...17:26
qi-botThe Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-11242011-1635/17:29
lekernelseems in fact, the chroot() call is broken. and I've had it with the RTEMS filesystem API, so I won't touch it.17:30
lekernelhmm... no, it works. what's going on then...17:33
qi-botThe Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-11242011-1829/19:21
wpwrakhmm, strange. i seem to get stronger contrast in color gradients now23:11
wpwraki wonder if it's just weird settings or something else is going on23:12
--- Fri Nov 25 201100:00

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!