#milkymist IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-11-16

wolfspraulgood morning everybody01:19
wpwraklekernel: hmm, SE0 (EOP) timing may be a little short. i see 130...150 ns. USB standard says 160-175 ns.02:32
wpwrakthe SOFs seem to arrive safe and sound. the ATmegaU2 can also receive partially corrupted SOFs, but it indicates they're all good07:36
wpwrakmeanwhile, i've tried to reduce the time between SETUP and DATA0, but that didn't have an effect either07:36
wpwraklekernel: the full-speed failure is still mysterious. at least the packets look perfect. maybe the problem is at a different timescale08:06
xiangfuwpwrak, I add my full-speed mouse to the wiki page. : http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_accessories#mouse08:12
xiangfuwpwrak, just some 'lsusb' informations.08:12
xiangfuwpwrak, what I can help to debug :)  I never plug this mouse to m1 before. :(08:13
xiangfuwpwrak, now I have two keyboards, one mouse not working under m1. :)08:13
wpwrakwhee, a full-speed mouse. that's the first one :)08:14
wpwrak(debug) hmm, you could try to install the latest FN and see if the mouse works. but it'll almost certainly fail. (and do nothing interesting)08:15
xiangfuwpwrak, I will try to reflash this build: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-11152011-2136/08:21
xiangfudownloading...08:22
xiangfuflashing...08:28
xiangfuthe daily build stop at :08:36
xiangfuI: Loading 1890012 bytes from flash...08:36
xiangfuI: Booting...08:36
xiangfugood news is:08:36
xiangfuUSB: HC: Low speed device on port A08:36
xiangfuOK08:36
xiangfuUSB: HC: VID: 04D9, PID: 280908:36
xiangfuUSB: HC: Found keyboard08:36
xiangfuUSB: HC: Found mouse08:36
wpwrakwhoa !08:36
wpwrakso the full-speed mouse works ?08:37
xiangfuno. it's the 1 usb. 2 interfaces device.08:37
wpwrakah :)08:37
xiangfufull-speed mouse give:08:38
xiangfuHC: Full speed device on port A08:38
xiangfuOK08:38
xiangfuUSB: HC: Transfer start: RX timeout error08:38
xiangfuUSB: HC: Control transfer failed:08:38
xiangfuUSB: HC: SETUP reply:08:38
xiangfuUSB: HC: (no data)08:38
wpwrakthe 2 itf device works ?08:38
wpwrak(FS mouse) welcome to the club ...08:38
xiangfuyes. the 2 itf device works. as least bios know them.08:42
wpwrakit's flickernoise that counts :)08:42
xiangfuwpwrak, oh. maybe we should make the OSC message configure-able. like some can map to DMX. some of them map to MIDI. some of them map to some keys.(a-z) not hard code. then it can accept any08:48
xiangfuosc message from osc application.08:49
wpwraki think we should e08:49
wpwraksend the whole control thingies through a common channel. midi, dmx, osc, ...08:49
wpwrakthen assign them at will. the current structure is very specific to sebastien's setup08:50
wpwrake.g., i have plenty of buttons to play with for selecting patches, but they all are MIDI controls, not MIDI notes08:50
xiangfuyes. that will be cool.08:51
xiangfuwpwrak, can you post your flickernoise somewhere. (don't want compile them today) thanks. (for make sure the mouse and 2itf device)08:57
isa_clear11:20
lekernelhi isa_11:25
wpwraklekernel: i had a look at the SOFs. they all look good. they also seem to be received without significant loss or ignored errors (the ATmegaU2 can receive an invalid SOF, but then indicates this with a flag)12:06
wpwraklekernel: i reduced the time between SETUP and DATA0, but that didn't do anything either12:06
wolfspraulis it possible that the device needs to receive something before all this to switch to full-speed ?12:08
lekernelno, devices are either full or low speed by design, you can't switch them12:09
wolfspraullekernel: btw to conclude heise - I think they were not interested in the story12:09
lekernelotherwise i'd set everything to slow speed, which is enough for keyboard, mice and MIDI, and be done with that :)12:10
wolfspraulI wrote another reply (all in German) to rescue the matter, but that was a long shot already...12:10
wpwraklekernel: a device can change speeds but only with a reset12:10
wolfspraulbasically I think the reason is that they don't get the tech specs of the product12:10
lekernelwpwrak: but those are particular extensions, no?12:10
wpwrak"can change" as in "it has the choice to implement doing so, or not" :)12:10
wolfspraulif we position it strictly as an instrument (like an electric guitar), then they would probably also not be interested because they don't cover instruments (my guess)12:10
wolfspraullet me do a quick search for 'korg' on the heise newsticker...12:11
wpwrakit's not an extension. it's just a capability. the host has to deal with whatever the device says it is (that is, unless it's high-speed. then the device has to be prepared to downgrade)12:11
wolfspraulwell, nothing, as I thought.12:11
wolfspraulso if we go the instrument route, heise is not interested12:11
wolfsprauland if we go the computer route, heise is also not interested12:12
lekernelwolfspraul: how did you position it so far?12:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: new mail ? where ? :)12:12
wolfspraulah, this is just a small item I try to get through, no big 'positioning'12:12
wolfspraulthey go to the links I give them and make up their own mind12:12
wolfspraulwpwrak: no new mail, just the one I cc'ed you on yesterday, to which there was no reply12:12
wpwrakah, i see12:12
wolfspraulI think my explanation worked, but they don't carry instruments12:12
wolfsprauljust search the ticker...12:12
wolfspraulnothing about korg, in years12:13
wolfspraul(for example)12:13
wpwrakthat one didn't request any immediate action. it was more a clarification12:13
wolfspraul"traktor" - also nothing12:13
wolfsprauloh that's always very fast12:13
wolfsprauleither he would have taken the story right away (yesterday) or not at all12:13
wolfspraulthe story was "Milkymist One available in Europe" (with link to H:D)12:13
wpwrakheise do cover peripheral topics. they could still do M1 because of the FPGA SOC. doesn't change how you position it, though12:14
wolfspraulwell12:14
wolfspraulsearch the ticker :-)12:14
wolfspraulno korg, no traktor, no instruments12:14
wolfspraulbottom line: we get there eventually, but my attempt yesterday failed12:15
wpwraki'll write it down the next time they cover something about music :)12:15
wolfspraulthere is a search box12:15
wolfsprauljust try :-)12:15
wolfspraulin many years, basically nothing about korg12:15
wpwrakthe search box needs the right keywords :)12:15
lekernelso, what about the architecture?12:15
wolfspraulmaybe from a kernel source comment somewhere :-)12:15
wpwrakyes, no korg12:15
wolfspraulsure we can try that12:15
wolfspraulwhat is the news?12:15
wolfspraulnew computing architecture unveiled?12:15
wpwrakfree complete FPGA SOC (with peripherals)12:16
wpwrakthat's something for the 2nd paragraph. the reason why they should cover it12:16
wpwrakyou keep the music in headline and into paragraph12:16
wpwrakintRo12:16
wolfspraulbtw, seriously this stuff is easy - newstips@heise.de12:16
lekernelthis has an history of failure, but anyway...12:17
wolfspraulthe headline has to be good, and the links you are pointing to, and the story12:17
wolfspraulbut I have no other magic way either12:17
wolfspraulonly that some journalists may know my name and I cc them and maybe they look at the mail12:17
wolfspraulthey never had a story on milkymist, so it's definitely some good links they could have12:17
wolfspraulbut the rest needs to fit their needs/audience too12:18
wolfspraulyesterday failed, done12:18
wpwrakyour last mail to heise was background. stuff that needs a lot of time to digest12:18
wolfspraulI tried :-)12:18
wolfspraulI tried to rescue and answer his questions.12:18
wolfspraulbut his mind was set on "totally outdated specs"12:18
wpwrakalso, it doesn't mention the pre-customer status. and the need for investors :)12:18
wolfspraulI need to search which news outlets take korg stories12:20
wpwrakthe "outdated" specs need a frame of reference: the thing has a defined purpose. as long as it fulfills it, the specs are irrelevant12:21
wpwrakso we have two "below spec" areas: 1) where we don't care. 2) what we still work on.12:21
wpwrakhence "pre-customer". hence investors.12:21
wpwrakdon't introduce contradictions where there are none :)12:22
wolfspraulok. I just wanted to sum this up for lekernel, so he doesn't feel things just disappear.12:22
wolfspraulI tried my best, they didn't take yesterday's idea.12:23
wolfsprauland although I cc'ed Werner back in and encouraged him to speak up, he didn't :-)12:23
wolfspraul(not that that would have helped either)12:23
wolfspraulbasically when someone's mind moves towards the specs, it's not interesting anymore12:24
wpwrakhttp://www.heise.de/ct/inhalt/2011/24/114/  http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Musiker-News-Elastischer-Rock-klassische-Yamaha-Effekte-kleines-Schlagwerkzeug-1379066.html12:24
wolfspraulmusician news, let's see...12:25
wolfspraulmaybe another journalist is better (doelle is all about foss)12:25
wpwrakhttp://www.heise.de/mac-and-i/meldung/iOS-Version-des-Musikinstruments-Tenori-on-1264233.html  http://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/Digitales-Tonstudio-1370322.html12:25
lekernelwolfspraul: so let's announce something better?12:25
lekerneland do it if it attracts enough attention?12:25
wpwrak(speak up) i was still busy synchronizing with you when you answered :)12:26
wolfspraularticle is from Nico Jurran nij@ct.de12:26
wolfspraulgo for it! :-)12:26
wolfsprauloh any news coverage is good, worst case the news outlet burns their reputation, right? :-) I don't care why someone covers milkymist12:27
wolfspraulwe know we are not a shady place etc.12:27
wolfspraulwe can try the instrument thing again with Nico12:27
wolfspraulbut I will cc Mirko Doelle definitely so they don't feel we try to play them12:27
wpwraklet's not rush it :) maybe make a draft, then let me comment ?12:28
wolfspraulone of the big no-nos - do not talk to multiple journalists from the same news outlet at the same time (independently)12:29
wolfspraulbut we can try Nico and cc Mirko back in, or even reply to Mirko's mail and cc Nico in12:29
wpwrakyeah, sounds good12:30
wpwraklekernel: regarding our discussion of adding a pixel processor to the video in or video feedback path, do you think we could say that "we're thinking about adding an extra effects processor to the pixel pipeline" ? ?12:31
wpwrak(as an example of what overwhelming flexibility the FPGA gives us)12:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: also don't underestimate mentioning our needs. heise are extremely FOSS-friendly. if they see a potentially attractive project that needs their help, they may consider this a strong motivator for reporting on it12:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: so you see, there are even two good reasons to mention investors :)12:33
wolfspraulok fine, I don't disagree, but that's just theory12:41
wolfspraulI am talking about small practical little steps12:41
wolfspraulin the end you need an individual on the other side that gets your thing12:41
lekernelwpwrak: we can try, yes. but I'm not sure if that will make a big difference...12:42
wolfspraulthey need to trust you, they need to know you are not talking a lot of bs, etc.12:42
lekernelanything M1 is so rapidly wrong when it comes to attracting attention :(12:42
wolfspraulonce we have a Milkymist fan among heise journalists, stories will just flow by themselves12:42
wolfspraulI think among foss it's not bad12:43
wpwrakhere's another article: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Ableton-Live-8-und-Suite-8-veroeffentlicht-211231.html and one more http://www.heise.de/mac-and-i/meldung/Ableton-Live-wird-Lion-kompatibel-1333068.html12:43
wpwrakthe newsticker is full of music ! ;-))12:43
wolfspraulI keep hearing from people that went to conferences that they were surprised how many others already knew about Milkymist12:43
wolfspraulin music I think we have more chances12:43
wpwrakvery good :)12:43
wolfspraulwhose the journalist there?12:44
wpwraklekernel: you're way too pessimistic :)12:44
wolfspraulableton live - roe12:44
wolfspraulpr is just work12:44
wolfspraullots of work12:44
wolfspraulklinken putzen12:44
wolfspraulableton live - bsc12:45
wolfspraulphew12:45
wolfspraulall different people12:45
wolfsprauloh well12:45
wolfspraul:-)12:45
wolfspraulbsd = Ben Schwan, bsc@heise.de12:46
wolfspraulbsc sorry12:46
wpwrakyou can ask your current contact if there's perhaps someone else you should contact. but include the ready-made article.12:50
wolfspraulhe12:51
wolfspraulI have a good intro at de-bug.de, I will try that first12:51
wolfspraulmaybe there is a music lover at heise, but I'm not sure who it is right now12:52
wpwraki'd suggest to keep the headline, 1st paragraph: description what it does and who'd use it. 2nd: the tech. 3rd: status of development (available for early adopters, still cleaning up for some months, need investors)12:52
wpwrakwolfspraul: from our side the main purpose would be to get the word to investors12:53
wpwraklots of potential customers are not good at the moment12:53
wpwrakyou don't have the devices to ship. there will be weeks before you have more. and the thing still needs a lot of work.12:53
wpwrakdon't burn the customer's goodwill too early12:54
wpwrakyou'd go fishing for customers when you're ready to sell and support 1000 units.12:55
wpwrakand you're not near to being ready for that. therefore, today's catch shall be investors. to make sure M1 will make it to the point where it can sell 1000+ units.12:56
wpwraklekernel: btw, it's quite normal that you fall back on the specs on a long-running project. you can't afford to upgrade to the latest stuff all the time. particularly not if you're small, like we are12:57
wpwraklekernel: there are some things that stick out, like low-speed USB and VGA. but we're fixing that :)12:58
wpwrakwolfspraul: on the tech, i would put the focus on 1) free and "complete" soc. not just some free core with proprietary peripherals or vice versa. or something that's barely good enough to blink a led.13:01
wpwrakand 2) on the ability to extend. e.g., the pixel processor.13:01
wpwraklekernel: btw, regarding extensions, i think we'll also run into problems with turn-around time for ACKs and such. USB is very strict the timing there. you have just a few bit clocks.13:02
wpwraklekernel: but we're not quite at a point where that would show up13:03
wpwrakyet13:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: and by getting the word out, maybe we'll also catch some developers. that would be very welcome, too. there's enough work for a few more people :)13:04
wolfspraulyes! but you and me talk about different things. you talk about theory, and I agree. and I talk about practical steps.13:07
wolfspraulthe only way to get coverage is to get a journalist to help you13:07
wolfsprauland they are all individual people, like you and me13:07
wolfspraulI try to share my experiences with them, limited but still a little at least13:08
wpwraklekernel: on with full-speed usb. i also looked at the bit timing. looks okay over all packets i checked. so i suppose it's accurate enough to catch all bits even if not recovering the clock in the middle (like my decoder does)13:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: okay, practical steps: write something with the three paragraphs i outlined above. send it with a comment like "after i've explained the background yesterday, this is what we think could be in a newsticker article". maybe also ask if you're barking up the right tree. maybe offer collaboration on a tech article for the print edition. (the latter would depend on sebastien)13:11
wpwrakcollaboration or a guest article. whatever the format.13:12
wolfspraulI'll try something different :-) (cc you)13:12
wpwraklet's see :)13:13
wpwraklekernel: regarding ACK/NAK timing: section 7.1.19.1, you have only 16 bit times to start sending the response to the device13:15
wpwraki still haven't found a limit for SETUP to DATA0 time. but i'm not entirely sure that's because there is none or because i'm not reading the stuff right ...13:16
wpwrakactually, i shuoldn't read the usb 2.0 spec ... way too much high-speed spam in there13:17
wpwraklekernel: with the full-speed device you have that gets past the first SETUP, does it later always fail at the same place ? or does this vary ?13:35
Last message repeated 1 time(s).13:41
lekernelthe bug I have is that the devices answers correctly, but the M1 often receives gibberish13:48
lekernelthat will be the next one I think ...13:48
wpwrakhmm. that sounds a bit nasty. let's just hope the problem isn't in the analog domain in the end.13:55
wpwrakregarding response delays, also propagation delays counts there. so you even have less than 16 bit times before starting the ACK.13:56
wpwraki still haven't found any clear statement on inter-packet delay in the same direction, except for a lower bound13:58
lekernelthere's no ack so far13:59
lekernelone by one :)13:59
wpwrakyeah. we dodge that bullet ;-))13:59
lekernelright now it sends SOF, SETUP and DATA0 and it already fails14:00
lekernelbut yes of course I expect massive problems and time wastage later on14:00
lekernelthat's the essence of USB14:00
wpwrak;-)14:03
wpwrakit's designed with hardware in mind. they didn't contemplate your navre ;-)14:03
lekernelno, it's not14:04
lekernelwhen you design something for hardware, you do not inflict super-complex state machines for nothing14:05
lekernelUSB is designed with insulting both hardware and software engineers in mind14:05
wpwrakmaybe the rule was: "show no favourism" ;-)14:05
wpwrakhmm. maybe 16 bit times ... how many do we have ...14:16
wpwrak10. ought to be fine.14:16
lekernelbetween SETUP and DATA0?14:16
wpwrakyes. i rearranged the code a bit14:16
wpwrakif you look at http://esd.cs.ucr.edu/webres/usb11.pdf14:17
wpwrakpage 173, 2nd paragraph14:17
wpwrak"As shown in Figure 8-20, the device uses its bus turn-around timer between token and data or data and handshake phases."14:17
wpwrakthis MAY mean that there is a timeout between SETUP and DATA014:18
lekernelah, indeed14:19
wpwrakinteresting. when i connect my HHKB (FS) and the Rii (LS), and power up, then the Rii doesn't work.14:36
wpwrakif i do the same with ATUSB and Rii, the Rii is fine14:36
wpwrakalas, the HHKB still doesn't work14:39
wpwrakis there a GPIO somewhere i could bang from navre (besides the transceiver controls) to indicate that i'm about to send a SETUP ?14:40
lekernelno, there isn't14:55
wpwraklet's try to cannibalize the other channel then ...14:56
lekernelif you use the RX speed bits, it should immediately reflect on the transceiver pins14:59
wpwrakgreat. let's try that then15:26
wpwraki see something :)16:01
wpwrakSETUP DATA0 IN ACK16:02
wpwrakall a bit garbled because i'm monitoring only D+16:03
wpwraklet's fix this16:03
wpwrakoh, even better: [~SOF191][~SETUP0/0][~DATA0:00.05.01.00.00.00.00.00][~ACK][~IN0/0][~DATA1][~ACK]16:08
wpwraklet'see see what it sends next16:09
wpwrakby the way, this is with the nanoKONTROL2 now. easier to leave that one plugged in, instead of switching the keyboard all the time :)16:10
wpwrakthe next message isn't so lucky: [~SOF192][~SETUP1/0][~DATA0:80.06.00.01.00.00.12.00]  (no ACK)16:12
lekernelso you fixed something already, and it makes the devices answer (at least sporadically)?16:13
wpwrakmaybe that's the effect of sending SETUP and DATA0 closer to each other. or maybe it always worked and i only saw it now (before trigger-on-SETUP, things were lost in a sea of SOFs)16:14
wpwrakhere's my collection of hacks: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/diff16:15
wpwraki reverted to 4k navre because the new soc+bios just gave me a completely unresponsive system16:16
lekernelfunny... works for me16:17
wpwraknote that the SETUP that got answered is in fact the very first SETUP that's sent. so it's not even sporadic16:17
wpwrakeventually, it will work for me, too ;-)16:17
lekernelso you just changed SETUP to DATA0 timing?16:18
wpwrakyes. plus the SETUP trigger instrumentation16:18
wpwrakthe timing change brings them within about 10 bit clocks of each other16:18
lekerneland now, the first SETUP/DATA0 gets answered? great.16:19
wpwrakso if the device has the turn-around timer running there, then it would time out after ~16 bits16:19
wpwraknow the question is why the next SETUP isn't :)16:19
lekernelof course, I couldn't have counted on the totalphase software to tell me that I was sending DATA0 too late16:19
wpwrakwhy should it ? ;-))))16:20
wpwrakit's so much more fun if you find out on your own :)16:20
wpwrakwhen we debugged a nasty USB problem at openmoko, we had access to a nice analyzer that would tell you about all the transgressions you had committed. wish i had that one around now. alas, a bit pricy.16:21
stekernwe have one of those laying around at work16:22
wpwrak(and in the end, almost useless for our bug hunt, because the problem was an unstable clock resulting in an unstable PLL that produced very weird error patterns when it finally reached USB)16:22
stekernthey are pretty handy when having to deal with annoying usb problems16:23
lekernelstekern: which one? the totalcrap analyzer, or a proper one?16:23
lekernelI'm very surprised by the good reviews I read about the totalcrap analyzer16:23
stekerna proper one16:23
wpwrakmost people probably have higher-layer problems to solve. they already have a chip that does bit timing and all that for them. they work at the level of ack'ing setups and such16:27
wpwrakstekern: pity .fi isn't closer to .berlin, or you could help sebastien16:30
stekernwell, I've got a M1 on the way to me ;)16:30
wpwrakah, excellent ! :)16:30
lekernelyeah, the closest place for such things seem to be Munich ...16:31
lekernelall the big electronics companies and distributors are there16:31
wpwrakroh: doesn't the CCC have some killer USB analyzer ?16:31
wpwrakah wait .. the device also has the right to be silent after an address change16:40
wpwrakup to 50 ms16:41
wpwrakbut that's done when it ACKs16:41
wpwraki wonder if the IN phase makes sense in the SET ADDRESS16:42
wpwrakah no, the IN is still there, no matter what. so this part is okay16:53
mumptaihi16:54
wpwrakwhoa. here's a wild one. lots of noise, unfortunately. HHKB: [~SOF47D|001][~SETUP0/0][~E0?|00001100000000101000001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001101011110100100][~ACK][~IN0/0][~NAK][~78?|010+SE1[~0E?|001000][~42?|1011010][~][IN0/0][~NAK][~IN0/0][~NAK][~IN0/0][~DATA1][~ACK][~+17:22
wpwrakinteresting: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/usb/short-sync.png17:26
wpwrakthe SYNC was cut short. the red part is where I edited the waveform17:27
wpwraki think a truncated sync is still valid. but it's interesting that this happened at all. probes are in the M1, digital side17:27
wpwrakah, perhaps just noise17:29
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/usb/short-sync-analog.png17:29
wpwrakthe glitch around 3.5e-06 threw it off17:30
wpwrakclock recovery filed a few complaints. perhaps i should print them in a slightly less cryptic format ...17:32
wpwrakargh. something's going on between M1 and HHKB. but the noise is deafening :-(17:45
wpwrakaha ! my ground wire broke17:45
wpwrakwolfspraul: ha ! heise dpesn18:20
wpwrakt report about music ? right here, today: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Musiker-News-DDR-Equalizer-DJ-Software-Audiointerface-fuer-Frauen-1380153.html18:20
wpwrakbtw, i have an interesting trace: after a chat with the HHKB, M1 suddenly falls silent. not even a SOF. the trace is very long, so it'll take a few hours to download and analyze18:23
wpwraklekernel: does milkdrop have video in ? or MIDI controls ?18:34
lekernelno, it does not18:38
lekernelthat's a flickernoise addition18:38
GitHub27[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/TV-14w18:38
GitHub27[flickernoise/master] Image loading library (WIP) - Sebastien Bourdeauducq18:38
wpwrakexcellent :)18:38
wpwraklekernel: when would you put the start date of the milkymist project ?19:00
wpwrakwell, year19:01
wpwrakhmm. are there better words for the things DJs do their thing with than "turntables" and "controllers" ?19:23
wpwraknaw, doesn't matter. i found a better description already :)19:29
kristianpaulnice, there is an announce for image support soon i hope :)19:34
kristianpaulhum but hub support will be required to, i still want to use mouse and kbd if i use the usb-midi device19:34
wpwraki think lekernel will be more than happy to accept your patches (-:C19:35
kristianpauli know !!19:35
kristianpaulbut i dont know :(19:35
kristianpaulbut usb is a serial protocol, looks interesting to learn later ;-)19:38
wpwrakyeah. it's just a serial protocol. not one of those complex parallel protocols.19:40
kristianpaul;)19:40
kristianpaulsacarsm right?19:41
kristianpaulat least i understand you have more control when doing things bit a bit..19:41
kristianpaulalo less point of failure :)19:41
lars_wpwrak would never use sarcasm19:41
kristianpaulalso*19:41
kristianpaulsorry19:42
kristianpaulhe, sure, sorry again, i tought for a minute how a serial protocol helish could be19:42
kristianpauli just*19:42
kristianpaulwell i just remenber reading lekernel and its love to usb :)19:43
Action: kristianpaul feels scolded19:46
wpwraklekernel: i have something pretty for you: http://pastebin.de/2024119:49
wpwrakthat's M1 vs. HHKB19:50
wpwrakof course, the ACK after an IN-DATA is sent after some 189 bit times - about 173 bit times after the device has timed out19:52
wpwrakah sorry, it's only 45 bit times. still ~29 too late19:56
wpwrakthe complete waveform is here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/usb/m1-hhkb.wv.bz219:57
wpwrakif you rename it to _wv, you can decode it with ...19:58
wpwrakhttp://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/m1/usb/dec.py19:59
wpwrak(need to install svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/ahrt/host/tmc/)19:59
wpwrakafter dec.py has done its thing, you can also visualize the analog waveform (from the digital side of the M1's transceiver) with http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/m1/usb/plot20:00
wpwraklekernel: i hope all that german isn't too taxing :)20:08
mumptaigerman? where?20:16
wpwrakmumptai: ah, i mailed him a german text to review. PR material for milkymist20:16
mumptaiohh, nice20:17
mumptaiwhere in the german language space are you trying to push milkymist?20:18
wpwrakoh course, i guess he'll simply google translate my delicate prose ;-)20:18
wpwrakheise.de, e.g., the newsticker20:19
mumptaithat would be nice20:20
wpwraklekernel: you want to read the #qi-hw log. Artyom is singing your praise :)20:20
wpwrakyeah. finally get the word out properly :)20:20
wpwrakhmm. no CRC check in usb_rx ? would i find one if i looked in the verilog ? ... naw, stupid me for even looking :)20:27
qi-botThe Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-11162011-1938/20:44
wpwraklekernel: hmm, usb_rx doesn't save the last byte received. is this correct ?21:09
wpwrakHHKB is a strict master. times out exactly after those 16 bit times.22:07
mwallewpwrak: btw what hhkb stands for?22:08
mwalle+does22:08
wpwrakhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HHKB22:08
mwallewpwrak: do you use it on a regular basis?22:10
wpwrakof course. it's my main keyboard. (hhkb pro) before i used a hhkb lite. and before, the original (ps/2). so that's well over a decade with these critters :)22:13
wpwrakalas, the hhkb vanished in asia. but the ps/2 one is still around. just don't have so many machines using ps/2 left. that is ... that may actually be a way to debug m1 usb and keep on typing. hmm ...22:14
lars_and does it make you happy?22:15
wpwrakyeah :) and it leaves a lot of room on my desk. room i can clutter with other things :)22:17
lars_i think i wouldn't be happy with shift and ctrl swapped ;)22:19
wpwrakyes ! original hhkb rides again ! ;-)22:22
wpwraklars_: neither would i. therefore i use a keyboard that has them at the right place ;-)22:23
lars_i see22:24
wpwrakalso, consider the origin of your PC keyboard: http://www.vintage-computer.com/images/83key.jpg22:25
lars_if i ever deliberatley going to by a keyboard it's going to be one with a pointing stick22:31
wpwrakthey're a bit overrated. they're nice on laptops, but on a regular size keyboard, they're a bit "fumbly"22:33
lars_http://www.amazon.de/gp/customer-media/product-gallery/B002PMJTYO/ref=cm_ciu_pdp_images_0?ie=UTF8&index=022:34
wpwrakyes, i know the trackpoint. been trying to avoid pads for as long as possible :)22:35
wpwraknow that it's getting too hard to find trackpoints, i carry a travel mouse.22:35
wpwrakthere are still laptops that have them, but they tend to be large and expensive22:36
wpwrakwell, my definition of "large". which is basically "not the smallest on the market" :)22:37
lars_all thinkpads have them and you can get them in all sizes22:37
wpwrakthat size ? :) http://www.2dayblog.com/images/34535463656.jpg22:40
wpwrakor even that size ? http://www.gadgetsguru.com/laptop/fujitsu/images/fujitsu5018.jpg22:40
wpwrakthe u1010 is about twice as big as the oqo22:40
lars_well, not nanonote size22:41
wpwrakhah ! ;-)22:41
wpwraki guess they may even be bigger than the sony vaio c1, may it rest in peace22:41
wpwrak(they = the thinkpads)22:42
wpwrakthat was a great little machine. very nice keyboard.22:42
wpwrakand still smaller than anything else at that time. of course, the oqo beat all the rest by a pretty wide margin.22:42
Action: mwalle wonders what arch/hexagon/ is23:02
mwallequalcomm hexagon23:03
lekernelwpwrak: august 200723:36
wpwrakthanks !23:37
lekerneland no, usb rx should save the last byte too23:46
wpwrakdamn. more cycles until the ack23:47
wpwrakwell, it could save the byte afterwards23:50
wpwrakof course what's really missing there is the crc23:51
--- Thu Nov 17 201100:00

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!