| wolfspraul | back in the happy milky community :-) | 01:14 |
|---|---|---|
| wolfspraul | and nothing in the backlog... | 01:14 |
| wolfspraul | maybe the reason Sebastien is so pissed about Raspberry Pi is that raspberry can do more than m1? | 01:16 |
| wolfspraul | it sounds really cool actually | 01:16 |
| wolfspraul | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_pi | 01:16 |
| wolfspraul | let's do some raspberry drooling | 01:16 |
| wolfspraul | it runs Linux! | 01:16 |
| wolfspraul | HDMI output | 01:16 |
| wolfspraul | Broadcom VideoCore IV, OpenGL ES 2.0, 1080p30 H.264 | 01:17 |
| wolfspraul | he | 01:18 |
| wolfspraul | 'Milkymist' is listed on the "See Also" list on that wikipedia page | 01:18 |
| wpwrak | so a bit of raspberry fame will rub off ;-) | 01:33 |
| wolfspraul | ha :-) | 01:33 |
| wolfspraul | it seems the raspberry project goes back to at least 2006 | 01:34 |
| wpwrak | so milkymist is pretty much on schedule. only 4 years, still one missing even to vapour-fame :) | 01:41 |
| wolfspraul | I think it's going great, really | 01:42 |
| wolfspraul | my #1 concern is to find money for the various under-funded supporters | 01:42 |
| wpwrak | yes, i think technically, it's moving excellently | 01:43 |
| wolfspraul | and let me defend Jon's work here. Jon is just unbelievable in his commitment. | 01:43 |
| wolfspraul | seriously | 01:43 |
| wolfspraul | show him some love | 01:43 |
| wpwrak | yes, finances are very bad | 01:43 |
| wolfspraul | right now he is traveling again, his m1 in tow, demoing the m1 to *everyone* he runs into | 01:43 |
| wpwrak | and PR is a disaster :) | 01:43 |
| wolfspraul | I am cc'ed or bcc'ed on a number of mails, the reactions are often painful, but he keeps going | 01:43 |
| wolfspraul | not really, I really don't think so | 01:44 |
| wpwrak | (jon) hehe :) | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | Milkymist is quite well known | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | people know it | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | you hear this everywhere | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | but... | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | people think it's shit | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | (short story) | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | they laugh at it | 01:44 |
| wpwrak | (PR) i mean more in the sense of placing it properly | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | ridicule the specs | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | 500 usd screen-saver | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | and so on | 01:44 |
| wpwrak | yeah, that's part of it :) | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | and btw | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | talking about that one | 01:44 |
| wpwrak | the screen-safer is self-inflicted | 01:44 |
| wolfspraul | 99 usd screen-saver wouldn't really be any better | 01:44 |
| wpwrak | that's what you get for marketing it as .. well, a screen-safer ;-) | 01:45 |
| wolfspraul | no I think that is all fine, but this endless "more pr" is a bit annoying | 01:45 |
| wolfspraul | so unimaginative | 01:45 |
| wolfspraul | PR FOR WHAT? | 01:45 |
| wolfspraul | yes your input is right | 01:45 |
| wolfspraul | but it's all work, even the understanding and positioning of a product is work | 01:46 |
| wolfspraul | the korg kaossilator pro, seems a wonderful product, sells for 460 USD retail | 01:46 |
| wolfspraul | what's the bom? | 01:46 |
| wolfspraul | 50 USD? my guess would be 50-100, at most | 01:46 |
| wolfspraul | it's a strong brand, strong channel, loyal customer base, fun product, sustainable pricing | 01:47 |
| wolfspraul | that's my goal for m1 | 01:47 |
| wolfspraul | what is the milkymist story? | 01:48 |
| wolfspraul | I keep thinking about it | 01:48 |
| wpwrak | (kaossilator) innovative concept, too. musical instrument for non-musicians :) real musicians tend to joke about it as a toy. sounds familiar ? ;-) | 01:48 |
| wolfspraul | the momentum it has now comes from the free software/culture side | 01:48 |
| wpwrak | i think M1 as a instrument for the VJ sounds pretty promising | 01:49 |
| wolfspraul | that's how I found it, you, Jon, kpaul, lars, etc. | 01:49 |
| wpwrak | get away from its milkdrop history. it's no longer a TV that you watch for the pretty pictures. it's something you control. | 01:49 |
| wolfspraul | milkdrop connection may be good or bad, correct | 01:49 |
| wolfspraul | I don't know | 01:49 |
| wolfspraul | see that's how subtle this all is | 01:49 |
| wolfspraul | you can make a story "milkdrop hardware accelerator" launched | 01:50 |
| wolfspraul | or maybe not | 01:50 |
| wpwrak | i'm not saying we should deny the milkdrop history. milkdrop is probably a good ancestor. but M1 goes beyond that. | 01:50 |
| wolfspraul | and you cannot change it every day, you have to repeat your story for a while. but then the clock is mercilessly clicking. | 01:50 |
| wolfspraul | remember how Jon thought for a while maybe it can be a set-top box? | 01:50 |
| wolfspraul | why not? | 01:50 |
| wolfspraul | I mean his thinking | 01:50 |
| wolfspraul | everybody thinks about the box, asks questions. slowly understands what is easy and what is hard. | 01:51 |
| wolfspraul | I don't know milkdrop nearly enough to have any opinion on whether it's worth to tell a story around that. | 01:51 |
| wpwrak | i must admit that i'm a bit afraid of jon's marketing ideas ;-) | 01:51 |
| wolfspraul | he tries to understand the product | 01:51 |
| wolfspraul | which other way there is than to a) buy one and play with it b) ask questions | 01:51 |
| wolfspraul | and he is doing both, whole-heartedly | 01:52 |
| wpwrak | the settop box is a good example: his question was "given a M1, what would i do with it ?". very few people just have M1s lying around ... | 01:52 |
| wolfspraul | I keep wondering how to pitch it to heise | 01:52 |
| wolfspraul | for heise, would 'video computer' work better than 'video synthesizer'? | 01:52 |
| wpwrak | oh, understanding the product is great. but that should perhaps happen a bit more discreetly :) | 01:53 |
| wolfspraul | you may dismiss this as some tiny detail, but the headline matters dramatically, in terms of conversion rates, whether people start looking up and reading | 01:53 |
| wpwrak | or at least with the proper disclaimer, to avoid confusion | 01:53 |
| wolfspraul | over the years I've read a few articles on movie marketing | 01:53 |
| wpwrak | "video computer" sounds very 1970 game consoles ;-) | 01:53 |
| wolfspraul | very interesting I think | 01:53 |
| wolfspraul | movies are interesting beasts | 01:53 |
| wolfspraul | they compete with thousands of great movies that have already been made | 01:54 |
| wpwrak | "it's a video computer. not just the 7 segment LEDs the others have !" | 01:54 |
| wolfspraul | probably everybody could fill their entire life watching old movies and never seeing one that is worse than any of the new ones that may still come | 01:54 |
| wolfspraul | but how come the movie industry manages to sell one new one after another? | 01:54 |
| wpwrak | oh, i totally love old movies :) | 01:54 |
| wolfspraul | and they do take risks (even though people say not enough) in plunking down tens of millions or even hundreds of millions into a new one | 01:55 |
| wolfspraul | yet the marketing of that one hangs on a tiny string | 01:55 |
| wpwrak | because ... concepts change slightly | 01:55 |
| wpwrak | and sometimes new concepts appear | 01:55 |
| wolfspraul | so there is *A LOT* of dancing around how to market it | 01:55 |
| wolfspraul | finding the perfect date | 01:55 |
| wolfspraul | finding the right way to talk about it | 01:55 |
| wolfspraul | and still there are no guarantees | 01:56 |
| wolfspraul | sometimes a movie that everybody discards as hopeless strikes gold | 01:56 |
| wolfspraul | and sometimes one where you seemingly have it all in the perfect soup totally tanks | 01:56 |
| wpwrak | and movies tend to have short commercial lives. often, it's hit or miss | 01:56 |
| wolfspraul | oh yeah | 01:56 |
| wolfspraul | it's nuts | 01:56 |
| wpwrak | one very few miss first and are rediscovered later | 01:57 |
| wolfspraul | and sometimes they loose confidence, then the finished movie is shelfed for months until someone thinks they foudn the magic way how and where and when to market it | 01:57 |
| wpwrak | yeah, that too :) | 01:57 |
| wolfspraul | interesting business | 01:57 |
| wolfspraul | and they are not afraid to compete against their own history, no matter how great movies are there already | 01:58 |
| wolfspraul | you need to find a convincing argument to try the new one still :-) | 01:58 |
| wpwrak | anyway, i think we should focus on M1 as a video synthesizer. that's where it feels strongest. so one question would be what live video effect tools there are for VJs. | 01:58 |
| wolfspraul | agree | 01:59 |
| wpwrak | and what else they use, e.g., to pre-produce loops and such. and then see how we could incorporate such functionality. | 01:59 |
| wolfspraul | tool for vjs, and people interested in vjing | 01:59 |
| wolfspraul | yes absolutely | 01:59 |
| wolfspraul | but we need to turn our 'add feature' machine on again | 01:59 |
| wpwrak | yes, the feature set is too small | 02:00 |
| wolfspraul | it slowed down in recent months, making people feel it's dead | 02:00 |
| wpwrak | we now have a great skeleton. time to add meat :) | 02:00 |
| wpwrak | yes, sebastien as the driving force has largely vanished. i hope that can be reversed. | 02:00 |
| wolfspraul | I think many people are open-minded to discarding their old habits and trying new things. | 02:00 |
| wpwrak | without him, the project will die | 02:00 |
| wolfspraul | not everybody, but enough. especially if you kick them into that mode. | 02:01 |
| wolfspraul | "hey, time to try something new!" | 02:01 |
| wpwrak | sure. there are always a few who are looking to be avantgarde | 02:01 |
| wolfspraul | not just a few. I think you can motivate people to throw away their daily self-defense in dismissing the new/unknown/scary and making the jump into the cold water. | 02:02 |
| wpwrak | yeah if you can explain it well, why not. of course, you must still scratch an itch. | 02:04 |
| wpwrak | heh, an identifier in RTEMS: _Message_queue_Translate_core_message_queue_return_code | 02:06 |
| wpwrak | sometimes, that code feels like a parody | 02:06 |
| wolfspraul | how hard is it to address the green-bias problem? | 02:08 |
| wolfspraul | in your videos, when the blue and red comes out it looks so much better | 02:08 |
| wolfspraul | alas, it comes out too little | 02:08 |
| wolfspraul | oh, what do you think about my faderfox reply? | 02:09 |
| wpwrak | dunno. it's a change to the graphics-FPU (probably easy) but also an increase of memory bandwidth. not sure how bad the latter is. | 02:09 |
| wolfspraul | did you understand what he meant with this micromodule drawing? | 02:09 |
| wolfspraul | Sebastien pumped up the mem bandwidth somewhat when he tried to reach 1024x768 | 02:10 |
| wpwrak | i think he wants to know what control exactly we want | 02:10 |
| wolfspraul | maybe a little is left to spend for more bpp? I don't know | 02:10 |
| wpwrak | yes, it may be enough. but i don't know for sure. | 02:10 |
| wolfspraul | any other feedback to the mail? | 02:11 |
| wpwrak | (faderfox) i was waiting to see if a reply would pop up somewhere before replying myself | 02:11 |
| wpwrak | oh, plenty :) | 02:11 |
| wolfspraul | well | 02:11 |
| wolfspraul | he may need some time to think as well | 02:11 |
| wolfspraul | I like his business | 02:11 |
| wolfspraul | or what I imagine of his business right now | 02:11 |
| wolfspraul | he is doing this since 2004 | 02:11 |
| wpwrak | ah, relatively new | 02:12 |
| wolfspraul | 3 generations (now), some different varients | 02:12 |
| wolfspraul | it seems he manufactures it all in Germany, or directs it from there | 02:12 |
| wolfspraul | pretty cool. and his prices are not bad. | 02:12 |
| wolfspraul | at some point I hope he shares his supply chain with us :-) | 02:12 |
| wpwrak | yeah, i wonder how he manages that. his prices seem very competetive. | 02:12 |
| wolfspraul | nah, I think it's possible | 02:12 |
| wolfspraul | the Chinese way of doing things is sick | 02:13 |
| wolfspraul | if a product can be made unmodified for a number of years, you may always be better off outside of China | 02:13 |
| wolfspraul | the Chinese are unbeatable when it comes to making so many changes so fast and then still being able to navigate through the chaos *without* understanding anything | 02:14 |
| wolfspraul | but when you slow down the iterations, and introduce some understanding, then things quickly get very expensive in China | 02:14 |
| wolfspraul | in Germany or other countries the *understanding* is always built-in | 02:14 |
| wolfspraul | so anyway, I'm interested in his supply chain at some point | 02:15 |
| wpwrak | yes. he seems to know a few things we haven't figured out yet :-) | 02:19 |
| wolfspraul | nah, I have a pretty good idea what's going on | 02:21 |
| wolfspraul | just interested in confirming, going through the process and supply chain and cost a little | 02:21 |
| wolfspraul | where he makes the pcb, where he makes the smt/dip, testing, etc. | 02:21 |
| wolfspraul | mechanical components probably from Japan/Korea/Taiwan | 02:22 |
| wolfspraul | only the very brave use Chinese mechanical parts :-) | 02:22 |
| wolfspraul | he mentions the joysticks as trouble-makers because of gluing | 02:22 |
| wolfspraul | anyway I will not ask any of this now, that's not my business. but in the long run if we work together you bet I'm curious :-) | 02:23 |
| wolfspraul | the Chinese really only have 1 skill that is all their magic, and they are the best at | 02:23 |
| wolfspraul | and that is to work on something without understanding it | 02:23 |
| wolfspraul | it makes them extremely fast and cheap | 02:24 |
| wolfspraul | you wouldn't want to know how scary it is that this 'skill' also translates into medicine, hospitals, etc. | 02:24 |
| wpwrak | mechanical parts ... from ALPS ... that would be jaoan, right | 02:26 |
| wpwrak | jaPan | 02:26 |
| wolfspraul | need to check | 02:26 |
| wolfspraul | but that wouldn't surprise me | 02:26 |
| wolfspraul | he mentions keys, faders, encoders, joysticks | 02:26 |
| wolfspraul | let's see... | 02:26 |
| wolfspraul | http://www.faderfox.de/mark/images/stories/faderfox_lv3_537x286px.jpg | 02:27 |
| wolfspraul | on that pic, what do we have? | 02:27 |
| wolfspraul | 2 joysticks at the bottom | 02:27 |
| wolfspraul | 3+8+8+8+2 keus | 02:27 |
| wolfspraul | keys | 02:27 |
| wolfspraul | the turnable things on the top, are those the encoders or faders? | 02:28 |
| wpwrak | tact switches, to be precise | 02:28 |
| wolfspraul | ok | 02:28 |
| wpwrak | rotary encoders (endless) | 02:28 |
| wolfspraul | ah | 02:29 |
| wolfspraul | and the ones you can slide up and down are the faders? | 02:29 |
| wolfspraul | then he mentions LED feedback back to the controller, which makes a lot of sense to me (initially) | 02:30 |
| wolfspraul | so there is only 1 usb cable going from the lv3 to the m1, and that's for power supply, midi messages into m1, and midi messages out (for example for led feedback) | 02:30 |
| wolfspraul | right? | 02:30 |
| wpwrak | (faders) yes | 02:30 |
| wpwrak | yup | 02:31 |
| wolfspraul | I count 30 leds there | 02:31 |
| wolfspraul | 4+8+8+8+2 | 02:31 |
| wolfspraul | what would we map all this to? | 02:31 |
| wpwrak | could be "control is active" feedback | 02:31 |
| wpwrak | or "control has been actuated", etc. | 02:32 |
| wolfspraul | 4 endless rotary encoders on top, then 3 switches, then another 8, 8 faders, 2 rows of 8 switches, another 2 switches, and finally 2 joysticks and another encoder | 02:32 |
| wolfspraul | phew | 02:32 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 02:32 |
| wpwrak | like in my message loss prevention video: the button lights up when pressed | 02:32 |
| wpwrak | not sure if i could also remote-control the button | 02:33 |
| wpwrak | well, the button led | 02:33 |
| wolfspraul | the best is probably that whatever you move or touch or press, something changes in the visual | 02:33 |
| wolfspraul | easier said than done | 02:33 |
| wpwrak | some of the encoders can also be pushed to act as a switch :-) | 02:33 |
| wolfspraul | and then it needs to make sense so you can slowly grow into the system and control it to your liking | 02:33 |
| wpwrak | i think we need a few layers to handle all this | 02:34 |
| wolfspraul | as I wrote in my mail, I think it's far too early to design a dedicated m1 controller | 02:34 |
| wpwrak | step one: have the "core" patch. then add controls where useful. the definition of controls could be part of the patch | 02:34 |
| wpwrak | yes, i agree | 02:34 |
| wolfspraul | we simply know nothing, or pretty much nothing, about what controls we actually want, or which ones would make 'perfect' sense for m1 | 02:34 |
| wpwrak | the next layer would then map patch controls to real device inputs | 02:35 |
| wolfspraul | also we shouldn't go out and work on the perfect system for a year, but instead take the controller and make it better little by little, enjoying what we do while we're on the way | 02:36 |
| wpwrak | plus you may have some controller library to provide meta-data. e.g., a rotary encoder may need special treatment if used for a non-cyclic input. so you'd have to declare this when configuring the controls for your patch. | 02:36 |
| wolfspraul | (and for this particular one we run into the usb-midi problem quite early :-)) | 02:36 |
| wpwrak | i think what we need first is practical experience | 02:36 |
| wolfspraul | yes | 02:36 |
| wolfspraul | and then gradually make it more meaningful | 02:36 |
| wpwrak | that's why i asked about customer follow-up :) | 02:37 |
| wolfspraul | the openess should, in theory, help on that path | 02:37 |
| wolfspraul | oh I know | 02:37 |
| wolfspraul | but I think I answered it many times now | 02:37 |
| wolfspraul | I am super interested in customer feedback | 02:37 |
| wolfspraul | and we actually get a lot | 02:37 |
| wolfspraul | but most is dismissed/ignored | 02:37 |
| wolfspraul | maybe we need a whatwewantfrommilkymist.org petition with 10,000 signatures? | 02:37 |
| wpwrak | maybe. perhaps it's also better to establish a dialog. | 02:38 |
| wolfspraul | I have no problem with customer feedback, I feel quite solid on it now | 02:38 |
| wolfspraul | Jon even more so | 02:38 |
| wpwrak | naw .. one problem is that the recipients are overloaded | 02:38 |
| wolfspraul | Jon is at this mozilla festival now, and pushing m1 hard for use with some full-time bbc djs | 02:38 |
| wolfspraul | yes I know [overload] | 02:38 |
| wpwrak | if we can have a dialog, one could just ask for feedback on a specific topic when one is about to work on that | 02:39 |
| wolfspraul | I try to send people to this channel | 02:39 |
| wolfspraul | give everyone the freenode webchat url | 02:39 |
| wpwrak | this reduces these evilly expensive context switches :) | 02:39 |
| wolfspraul | but few make it | 02:39 |
| wolfspraul | nocarrier did | 02:39 |
| wpwrak | i'm not sure if a 24/7 IRC channel is very appealing to most people | 02:39 |
| wpwrak | i think a forum may work much better | 02:40 |
| wpwrak | IRC is good if you're dead serious and willing to spend a lot of time | 02:40 |
| wpwrak | or need a high-intensity dialog. e.g., for debugging a problem | 02:41 |
| wolfspraul | yes maybe | 02:41 |
| wolfspraul | one sec, back to the controller | 02:41 |
| wolfspraul | are there other types of controls (mechanically) that could make sense? | 02:41 |
| wpwrak | but our mode of operation, basically hanging out non-stop and converging by sheer self-organization isn't what the occasional visitor can use | 02:41 |
| wolfspraul | or those 4 on lv3 is all that does? | 02:41 |
| wpwrak | yes. pads. | 02:42 |
| wpwrak | there are more: | 02:42 |
| wpwrak | - potentiometers (similar to encoders, but with stops. may also have a better resolution) | 02:42 |
| wpwrak | - pressure/velocity-sensitive buttons | 02:43 |
| wpwrak | - jog wheels | 02:43 |
| wpwrak | that's about all i encountered so far | 02:44 |
| wpwrak | also, somethings come in different styles. e.g., encoders/pots can have a push-to-switch function | 02:44 |
| wpwrak | joysticks can be self-centering or stay-where-you-left-them | 02:44 |
| wolfspraul | hmm | 02:45 |
| wolfspraul | ok good! | 02:45 |
| wpwrak | encoders can have a LED ring. pads can have a LED matrix too. | 02:45 |
| wpwrak | faders can be motorized to travel to a host-commanded default position | 02:45 |
| wpwrak | there are also drum pads. not quite sure how they work. they're relatively large | 02:46 |
| wolfspraul | if we work with faderfox, he can also give us some ideas since he works with modul8 in parallel | 02:47 |
| wolfspraul | some knowledge sharing :-) | 02:48 |
| wpwrak | what i have in my possession this far are: buttons, potentiometes (many cheap ones and one that's good), non-motorized faders (again many cheap and one good), and one X/Y pad | 02:48 |
| wpwrak | i think pressure-sensitive buttons could be interesting too. e.g., for adding images, in case you want to "inject" it and then let the normal effect processing mess with it | 02:49 |
| wpwrak | oh, i think he'll have lots of fun playing with the demo M1 ;-) | 02:49 |
| wolfspraul | wpwrak: I'm summing up some of the controller thoughts here http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_accessories#controllers | 05:04 |
| wolfspraul | what control interfaces exist? midi and usb-midi is a given. dmx too? I know very little about dmx... | 05:05 |
| wolfspraul | does osc overlap with midi in any way? | 05:05 |
| wolfspraul | so 3? midi, dmx, osc? | 05:05 |
| wpwrak | i think OSC aims to be a better MIDI, DMX, etc. | 05:24 |
| wolfspraul | ah, here | 05:24 |
| wpwrak | also, we have the IR remote :) | 05:25 |
| wolfspraul | yes but that seems to be a super low-innovation scene | 05:25 |
| wpwrak | yet it's the only one that's been actively promoted so far :) | 05:25 |
| wolfspraul | don't blame me for learning | 05:27 |
| wolfspraul | that's already happening too much here anyway | 05:27 |
| wolfspraul | what I've learnt from remote controls (so far) is that all the manufacturers have maneuvered themselves into a corner where they cannot innovate anymore | 05:27 |
| wpwrak | ah, how did they do that ? | 05:28 |
| wolfspraul | it's this cheapo 1-2 USD thing some consumer electronics companies throw into their retail boxes as an afterthought | 05:28 |
| wolfspraul | no attention for detail, no willingness to invest (backlighting, nice surfaces and materials, well designed, etc) | 05:28 |
| wolfspraul | I'd say remote controls are dead | 05:28 |
| wolfspraul | unless we go all the way out and design and manufacture our own | 05:29 |
| wolfspraul | the dmx/midi controller companies seem to have a little more long-term horizon, so both them and their customers can innovate | 05:29 |
| wpwrak | there are aftermarket remotes. some of them are quite fanciful | 05:29 |
| wolfspraul | url? | 05:29 |
| wolfspraul | I can just tell you what I've learnt so far :-) | 05:30 |
| wpwrak | it seems china has already eaten the low-cost segment of DMX | 05:30 |
| wolfspraul | that's the problem when both buyers and manufacturers of a certain category device come to the conclusion that no more innovation is needed | 05:30 |
| wolfspraul | then they will both race to the bottom price-wise, and their wish shall be fulfilled | 05:30 |
| wpwrak | http://www.logitech.com/en-us/remotes/universal-remotes | 05:31 |
| wolfspraul | nothing much you can do about it, since it's the consensus in that category | 05:31 |
| wolfspraul | if you believe we should investigate more in IR, I will | 05:32 |
| wpwrak | yeah. and hard to get out of this, too, since people's price expectations will eventually settle for "almost nothing" | 05:32 |
| wolfspraul | yes, it's a consensus | 05:32 |
| wpwrak | naw, i don't think IR is very interesting | 05:32 |
| wpwrak | if you want to make remotes, use at least wpan :) | 05:32 |
| wolfspraul | yes sure | 05:33 |
| wolfspraul | I can just say what I learnt so far, and I keep learning | 05:33 |
| wolfspraul | I think we should keep the ir interface and remote we source now, just in case | 05:33 |
| wolfspraul | but not make it a focus of our marketing or development | 05:33 |
| wolfspraul | but I also wouldn't remove it (thought about that for a solid 30 minutes this morning actually) | 05:33 |
| wolfspraul | I don't want to write off IR as a technology, I think that's unwise given the largely open future of Milkymist (now that it's in especially). | 05:34 |
| wolfspraul | but the manufacturers in that area I foudn so far are screwed | 05:34 |
| wolfspraul | they just keep the old machines running, zero willingness to invest | 05:34 |
| wpwrak | well, IR can be a cheap way to get input, in case you need it | 05:34 |
| wolfspraul | yes | 05:34 |
| wolfspraul | and we have it now | 05:34 |
| wpwrak | most of the R&D cost is already sunk :) | 05:35 |
| wolfspraul | so I'd keep it the way it is, and maybe one day someone comes and innovates. but not me :-) | 05:35 |
| wolfspraul | nah | 05:35 |
| wolfspraul | it starts with our SoC being hard-coded to more or less only work with the remote we include (timing issues) | 05:35 |
| wpwrak | yes, that's why i say "most of" :) | 05:35 |
| wolfspraul | and goes on to the printing of the remote not fitting m1 at all, and the buttons not performing many functions at all either | 05:36 |
| wolfspraul | if I find a manufacturer like faderfox, or many of the bigger controller guys, who is active in IR, I may reconsider | 05:36 |
| wolfspraul | but so far I haven't | 05:36 |
| wolfspraul | the IR guys I found are operating with enough excess intellectual capacity that I would struggle instructing them how to mow my lawn | 05:37 |
| wolfspraul | in other words: zero | 05:37 |
| wolfspraul | I cannot even explain *anything* to them. they are just cranking out the old stuff at penny prices, and go home. | 05:37 |
| wolfspraul | night and day difference to that faderfox guy, for example :-) | 05:38 |
| wpwrak | hehe :) | 05:38 |
| wolfspraul | ok, even those 2 logitech remotes don't convince me | 05:38 |
| wolfspraul | that's just the lots of buttons universal remote | 05:40 |
| wolfspraul | that business doesn't work, afaik (old info from Steve) | 05:40 |
| wolfspraul | and they sell for 30 and 70 USD | 05:40 |
| wolfspraul | no way a company like logitech can innovate on that | 05:40 |
| wolfspraul | ZERO chance | 05:40 |
| wolfspraul | no, like I said. I am impressed by what I see in the MIDI/DMX/OSC scene | 05:40 |
| wpwrak | keep on scrolling. there are bigger ones. | 05:40 |
| wolfspraul | there are some real businesses and real customers there. this stuff will move forward, they have the personnel and finances to move forward. | 05:40 |
| wolfspraul | he, ok | 05:41 |
| wolfspraul | it goes to 350 USD | 05:41 |
| wolfspraul | well | 05:41 |
| wolfspraul | I wish I could compare the volume of a 300 USD remote and a 400 USD kaossilator | 05:41 |
| wpwrak | logitech may win that comparison :) | 05:41 |
| wolfspraul | I have no idea which sells better | 05:41 |
| wolfspraul | nah, not sure | 05:42 |
| wolfspraul | back to the control interfaces | 05:42 |
| wolfspraul | which one do you like? | 05:42 |
| wolfspraul | does dmx overlap with midi in any way? | 05:42 |
| wpwrak | i can imagine the logitech monster in a lot of homes, right in the middle of vast home theater temple to consumerism :) | 05:43 |
| wpwrak | yes, dmx and midi overlap | 05:43 |
| wpwrak | which ones i like ... hard to say yet. i only know four types so far. don't know joysticks, pressure-sentitive buttons, and rotary encoders | 05:43 |
| wpwrak | (among the more common ones i don't know) | 05:44 |
| wpwrak | joysticks are what sebastien recommends. but i don't know if he has actually tried one yet. | 05:44 |
| wolfspraul | wait you talk about the mechanical parts now, right? | 05:45 |
| wpwrak | yes | 05:45 |
| wpwrak | ah, you mean protocols | 05:45 |
| wolfspraul | we have the mechanical side, and the message format/protocol side | 05:45 |
| wolfspraul | the 4 you know are: switch, fader, ? | 05:46 |
| wpwrak | midi is okay-ish. widely available. osc may be technically superior, but seems a niche. dmx doesn't offer a big choices of controls. mainly faders, on/off, and X/Y | 05:47 |
| wolfspraul | x/y ? you mean like a pad where you can position a cursor? | 05:47 |
| wpwrak | tact switch, fader/slider, potentiometer, X/Y pad | 05:47 |
| wpwrak | DMX usually seems to have joysticks | 05:48 |
| wolfspraul | what's the difference between potentiometer and rotary encoder? | 05:48 |
| wolfspraul | to motor-control the light? | 05:48 |
| wpwrak | one difference is that rotary encoders have no stops | 05:48 |
| wolfspraul | you can also control color? | 05:48 |
| wolfspraul | on the patch side, most of the controls would map to a number/variable, right? | 05:48 |
| wpwrak | (color/motor) you're free to do whatever you fancy with those numbers :) | 05:48 |
| wolfspraul | well yes, but I mean in terms of DMX lights you can actually buy already | 05:49 |
| wolfspraul | I don't want to manufacture everything back to the wheel myself... | 05:49 |
| wpwrak | right now, all the MIDI controls produce, in the patch, a number from 0.0 to 1.0 | 05:49 |
| wpwrak | the DMX lights would use X/Y for motor. don't know how color channels really are handled. lights also have apertures they can change. somehow, DMX must address these, too | 05:51 |
| wolfspraul | wikipedia suggests that osc is a midi superset | 05:52 |
| wpwrak | i just examined a relative simple DMX controller, similar to the one sebastien has. then i realize that about half of the controls were used up for hard-wired functions i had no use for :) | 05:52 |
| wolfspraul | which controllers do we know so far? | 05:52 |
| wolfspraul | or companies | 05:52 |
| wolfspraul | korg | 05:52 |
| wolfspraul | akai | 05:52 |
| wolfspraul | faderfox | 05:52 |
| wpwrak | behringer | 05:53 |
| wpwrak | m-audio | 05:53 |
| wpwrak | frontierdesign (even more exotic than faderfox :) | 05:54 |
| wpwrak | icon | 05:54 |
| wpwrak | novation | 05:54 |
| wpwrak | and then there's a host of DMX companies. very little overlap | 05:55 |
| wpwrak | some product URLs: | 05:55 |
| wpwrak | http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=564 | 05:56 |
| wpwrak | http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=596 | 05:56 |
| wpwrak | http://www.korg.com/Product.aspx?pd=414 | 05:56 |
| wpwrak | http://www.akaipro.com/mpd24 | 05:56 |
| wpwrak | http://www.novationmusic.com/products/midi_controllers/zero_sl_mk_ii/ | 05:56 |
| wpwrak | http://www.m-audio.com/images/global/manuals/TriggerFinger_UG_03EN_V3.PDF | 05:56 |
| wpwrak | http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/BCF2000.aspx | 05:56 |
| wpwrak | http://www.akaipro.com/lpd8 | 05:56 |
| wpwrak | http://www.faderfox.de/mark/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=165&Itemid=239 | 05:56 |
| wpwrak | http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/XSessionPro.html | 05:57 |
| wpwrak | http://frontierdesign.com/Products/AlphaTrack/Introduction | 05:57 |
| wpwrak | http://www.icon-global.com/ShowPro.aspx?ID=136 | 05:57 |
| wpwrak | http://www.icon-global.com/ShowPro.aspx?ID=19 | 05:57 |
| wpwrak | all these are devices i examined a bit as candidates. most of them should be okay. not entirely sure about the icon things, because they seem to rely heavily on host-based configuration. but maybe they're just plain dumb MIDI units with factory defaults, much like the nanoKONTROL2 i have (which could also be configured if i had windows/mac etc.) | 05:59 |
| wpwrak | i didn't write down most of the DMX controllers i ran into. here are two examples, first an expensive one, then the ACME competition: | 06:00 |
| wpwrak | http://www.cme-pro.com/products-list/product-Bitstream3X.html | 06:00 |
| wpwrak | http://prolight.co.uk/images/media/CONT06/CONT06-um0.pdf | 06:00 |
| wpwrak | ACME = Awsome China Makes Everything. this product family (there's a total of three variants, faders, wheels, or joystick) exists under at least three different brand names. | 06:02 |
| wpwrak | DMX units tend to be bulkier than MIDI, since they're for fixed installations. often even 19" racks. | 06:03 |
| wpwrak | do you also want the links to the corresponding manuals ? :) | 06:07 |
| wpwrak | the big name companies (yamaha, roland, etc.) may also have MIDI controllers. there's one "premium" product that others often refer to: http://www.mackie.com/products/mcupro/index.html | 06:12 |
| aw_ | wolfspraul, the second rc2-2-rc3 m1 works well after assembly. I planed to let it remained rendering over this weekend. | 06:13 |
| wolfspraul | phew, ok | 06:28 |
| wolfspraul | excellent links | 06:28 |
| wolfspraul | first dump into wiki :-) | 06:28 |
| wolfspraul | I think we should focus on small companies that are dedicated around controllers, yet have a good enough standing and customer base for real innovation | 06:30 |
| wolfspraul | much like faderfox :-) (from what I know so far) | 06:30 |
| wpwrak | for direct cooperation, yes | 06:31 |
| wpwrak | for product recommendations, the opposite :) | 06:31 |
| wolfspraul | to increase the value of m1, what do we need to do? | 06:31 |
| wolfspraul | we need to document which ones are tested, which ones are untested | 06:31 |
| wolfspraul | for the tested ones, we need to document how well they actually work with m1 | 06:31 |
| wpwrak | yes | 06:31 |
| wolfspraul | and then we can have another perspective which is "if I want to buy a controller just for m1, which one would you recommend" | 06:32 |
| wpwrak | yes, that sounds good | 06:32 |
| wolfspraul | homework galore | 06:32 |
| wpwrak | ;-)) | 06:32 |
| wpwrak | speaking of which ... quarterly news ? | 06:32 |
| wolfspraul | bah yes | 06:32 |
| wolfspraul | currently working on my time-tripling feature | 06:32 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 06:32 |
| wolfspraul | I will do it | 06:32 |
| wolfspraul | anxious actually | 06:33 |
| wolfspraul | tons of good stuff | 06:33 |
| wolfspraul | so you have a kaossilator pro, right? | 06:34 |
| wolfspraul | and also the older kaossilator, but that won't work with m1? | 06:35 |
| wpwrak | yes, plus a nanokontrol2 | 06:35 |
| wpwrak | correct | 06:35 |
| wolfspraul | ah | 06:35 |
| wpwrak | here is my setup: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/midi/vjlab.jpg | 06:35 |
| wolfspraul | wow the kaossilator pro seems big and heavy | 06:38 |
| wpwrak | yeah. inertia is good :) | 06:39 |
| wpwrak | in excahnge, the nanoKONTROL2 is a flimsy thing | 06:40 |
| wolfspraul | you don't like the feel of it? | 06:41 |
| wolfspraul | I'm wondering how tablets and touch-phones will fit into this over time | 06:41 |
| wolfspraul | surely there is controller software for the ipad already, I would think | 06:41 |
| wpwrak | the nK2 doesn't feel very confidence-inspiring. you notice the difference to the KP | 06:42 |
| wolfspraul | a cheap android wifi touchphone can be bought for ca. 30 usd | 06:42 |
| wpwrak | ;-) | 06:42 |
| wpwrak | OSC ? :) | 06:42 |
| wolfspraul | yeah just thinking | 06:43 |
| wolfspraul | probably our best strategy is to be flexible and just go with what comes along and is a real opportunity | 06:43 |
| wolfspraul | cheap, works easily, available now | 06:43 |
| wolfspraul | old or new, whatever. mechanical or touch-phone/pad | 06:44 |
| wpwrak | i think it's good to have a choice of such ubiquitous devices, yes | 06:44 |
| wolfspraul | but I also think we should go with brand that we can expect to be around for a number of years, whether small or large | 06:44 |
| roh | wolfspraul: touch was there already a long time... doesnt give the feedback of a mechanical slider. there are only a few touch-devices in that field that life long.. special input foo like the touchpad on the kaossilator. | 06:45 |
| wpwrak | so people can quickly build a first evironment for experimentation | 06:45 |
| wolfspraul | otherwise we spend a lot of time chasing disappearing one-off shows | 06:45 |
| wpwrak | those who are serious can later explore into more professional solutions | 06:45 |
| wolfspraul | roh: sure, I want to stay out of that battle and have no opinion. enough on my plate. | 06:45 |
| roh | but as a knob and fader replacement touch will not gain professional users anymore than it has already | 06:45 |
| wolfspraul | that's why I say strategy is to be flexible, take what comes, document well, look for a little brand stability to not waste time | 06:46 |
| wolfspraul | roh: I wait to see what those professionals say with their wallet, not with their mouths :-) | 06:46 |
| wpwrak | roh: i see touch as an attractive choice for x/y. particularly if you make a lot of rapid inputs. | 06:46 |
| roh | wolfspraul: in high-end audio (studio eqipment in the hundredthousands) there were experiements with fullsize plasmas etc.. didnt get real succes.s. was very good built.. but nobody wanted a mixer where you couldnt feel the pots and knobs. simply failed in the haptics | 06:47 |
| wolfspraul | understood | 06:47 |
| wolfspraul | but like I said we can stay out of that | 06:47 |
| wolfspraul | we just compare, pick, document, recommend, use | 06:47 |
| wpwrak | ah, and i think a tablet would make a nice companion for a more traditional electromechanical controller | 06:47 |
| roh | wolfspraul: whats successfull is special mechanical hw which shares functions (endless-pots.. motorfaders, xy-fields like on the kaossilator. but not full-'virtual' input elements | 06:48 |
| wpwrak | the tablet could be used for things like image/patch selection | 06:48 |
| wolfspraul | wpwrak: have you seen any tablet maker that tries to market into such a niche? | 06:49 |
| wolfspraul | I'm just wondering - Apple sells to 'everybody' | 06:49 |
| wolfspraul | ipad for everything | 06:49 |
| wolfspraul | ok, easy to understand | 06:49 |
| wolfspraul | the flood of cheapo Android tablets are mostly a total sales failure | 06:49 |
| wolfspraul | predictably | 06:49 |
| wolfspraul | because they suck, on all of thousands of loose ends | 06:50 |
| wpwrak | well, those logitech remotes go a bit in this direction. but regular tablet makers, no | 06:50 |
| wolfspraul | but why aren't some of those cheapo makers zooming in on smaller markets? or are they already? | 06:50 |
| wolfspraul | instead they try to follow Apple, also in marketing, and die | 06:50 |
| wpwrak | you mean cheap droids vs. expensive droids ? | 06:50 |
| wpwrak | yeah, sure | 06:50 |
| wolfspraul | it's a good discussion with liu qiang to have next wed | 06:51 |
| wpwrak | that seems to be just the way a lot of managers tick | 06:51 |
| wolfspraul | how many android tablets his customers are actually selling | 06:51 |
| wpwrak | ;-) | 06:51 |
| wolfspraul | I'm sure the controller companies must have thought about this already as well | 06:52 |
| wolfspraul | hmm | 06:52 |
| wpwrak | a tablet alone may not work, for the reasons roh mentioned | 06:53 |
| wpwrak | but M1+tablet+LV3, for example, could be pretty cool | 06:53 |
| wolfspraul | yes | 06:53 |
| wolfspraul | that's what I mean | 06:53 |
| wolfspraul | look from the perspective of a cheapo Android tablet maker | 06:54 |
| wpwrak | the tablet would be the M1's control screen. sort of "console" | 06:54 |
| wolfspraul | what is his biggest challenge? I think it's marketing | 06:54 |
| wpwrak | seems that the droid makers don't network | 06:54 |
| wolfspraul | no money left for that | 06:54 |
| wolfspraul | you don't realize how quickly salaries add up | 06:54 |
| wpwrak | also, the cheap ones need huge volumes. so networking with something as low volume as instruments it probably right off the table | 06:54 |
| wolfspraul | imagine 2 people making 100k USD / year | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | just two, ok | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | that's 200,000 USD / year | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | many small guys may be lucky to sell 5000 units | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | if you put those 2 guys on marketing that product, that's 40 USD / product!!! | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | more than the entire bom | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | no way | 06:55 |
| wpwrak | ;-) | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | those companies cannot even begin to process that this means etc. | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | how to recoup this money | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | all completely clueless | 06:55 |
| wpwrak | i'm not sure they really work with such low volumes | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | absolutely | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | there's a frenzy of companies | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | all running | 06:56 |
| wpwrak | i see a lot of "generic" designs coming from china. with lots of rebranding. | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | you have no idea how many products never sell more than 10k | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | even among Taiwanese oem/odm | 06:56 |
| wpwrak | maybe they're just copying from each other. zero R&D. | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | that's the price they pay for flying the airplane blindly | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | sure, zero | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | and zero marketing | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | no money | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | just do the math | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | it's not there | 06:56 |
| wpwrak | brave new world :) | 06:57 |
| wolfspraul | the typical taiwanese oem/odm will hardly know why a few of his dozens of products suddenly sell 'well', i.e. 50k and more | 06:57 |
| wolfspraul | and chinese - not at all | 06:57 |
| wolfspraul | the problem is, I can have whatever story I want, I doubt I can generate much excitement | 06:58 |
| wolfspraul | they can only think of their products as "the same" as the ipad | 06:58 |
| wolfspraul | no matter how far from that they actually are | 06:59 |
| wolfspraul | I'll ask liu qiang | 06:59 |
| wolfspraul | sales numbers of Ingenic-based tablets | 06:59 |
| wolfspraul | if it's low, maybe there is someone interested somewhere (I doubt it though) | 06:59 |
| wpwrak | yeah, you probably only could use tablets makers as suppliers. maybe you could strike a deal as with the ben, to have the thing at least semi-open | 07:00 |
| wolfspraul | you can only go so far with suppliers that have lots of muscles but no brain | 07:00 |
| wpwrak | ingenic don't have what you need. and the too-low tablet makers are probably dying already :) | 07:00 |
| wolfspraul | then I rather ask for cash, and we develop it ourselves out of the NanoNote | 07:00 |
| wpwrak | yup :) | 07:00 |
| wolfspraul | no no | 07:00 |
| wolfspraul | Ingenic is the driving force here | 07:00 |
| wpwrak | ah, i see | 07:01 |
| wolfspraul | the manufacturers are jsut the 'runners', if you will :-) | 07:01 |
| wolfspraul | if you can imagine... | 07:01 |
| wpwrak | well, if they "own" the tablet makers, then you can perhaps suggest a ben-like deal | 07:01 |
| wpwrak | pick one with the lowest amount of non-free technology (e.g., no telephony) | 07:01 |
| wolfspraul | I need to understand the product, I don't want to join in this senseless running around | 07:01 |
| wolfspraul | I start by asking for sales numbers | 07:02 |
| wpwrak | maybe propose to look into this approach, but make it clear you need more money to develop your side of the bargain | 07:02 |
| wolfspraul | if they are low, maybe the idea of marketing a tablet as (one type of) controller could make sense | 07:02 |
| wolfspraul | and it would allow us to let someone else finance NanoNote development :-) | 07:03 |
| wpwrak | of course, just a controller for M1 probably wouldn't be very exciting | 07:03 |
| wolfspraul | no it would not [just controller] | 07:03 |
| wolfspraul | but if a lot of software comes into play, maybe the nanonote can be used as a starting point | 07:03 |
| wolfspraul | I shall investigate | 07:03 |
| wpwrak | hehe :) | 07:03 |
| wpwrak | one problem with "reassigning" nanonote development on a tablet is the form factor. but of course, you could make something quasi-ya-ish, just for the purpose of having a controller | 07:05 |
| wpwrak | others may be interested in that, too | 07:05 |
| wolfspraul | I'm just looking for a way to funnel funding my way | 07:05 |
| wolfspraul | so much money is wasted in stupid Apple chasing that all fails | 07:06 |
| wolfspraul | it's scary | 07:06 |
| wpwrak | funding is always good :) | 07:06 |
| wolfspraul | but maybe inevitable, maybe it's the price to be paid for the entire system, and cannot be optimized | 07:06 |
| wpwrak | it's the price of being unable to innovate | 07:06 |
| wolfspraul | yes | 07:06 |
| wolfspraul | and they will keep sinking the next millions into the same mission impossible | 07:07 |
| wolfspraul | like robots | 07:07 |
| wpwrak | maybe you start with people who can't do it. but if you don't break out of it once you would have the right people, you may end up with a culture that makes lack of innovation a virtue | 07:07 |
| wpwrak | each time i read about massive R&D layoffs in big corporations, that comes to mind. R&D is a bad word nowadays. | 07:08 |
| wolfspraul | if you find an existing midi/dmx/osc controller maker that is offering some kind of tablet, let me know | 07:08 |
| wolfspraul | I will google a bit too | 07:08 |
| wolfspraul | unfortunately I hardly know sales numbers in this entire industry | 07:09 |
| wpwrak | btw, if you haven't seen my "vj lab" picture before, then you may have missed the beginning of this posting: http://lists.milkymist.org/pipermail/devel-milkymist.org/2011-October/002038.html | 07:15 |
| wpwrak | there, i also explain (briefly) how to set up usb-midi. | 07:16 |
| wpwrak | in your mails to faderfox you sounded a bit as if usb-midi was still impossible, while in truth, it's merely awkward (i.e., you need a PC) | 07:17 |
| wolfspraul | fair enough, although I think such a redirect takes us completely out of any 'user friendly' consideration | 07:37 |
| wolfspraul | so I didn't mention it, keep in mind m1 is already a lot to digest for him now | 07:37 |
| wolfspraul | no I didn't miss any of those mails | 07:38 |
| wolfspraul | the pics are already in the wiki, ready for news inclusion | 07:38 |
| wpwrak | kewl :) and yes, it's more an engineering solution than anything to throw at end users :) | 07:39 |
| lekernel | he | 09:13 |
| lekernel | last week I said I will restart large M1 developments in about two weeks | 09:14 |
| wolfspraul | yes and we are all anxiously waiting :-) | 09:53 |
| wolfspraul | actually we should spread the news of new features slowly, that's my job or Jon's | 09:54 |
| wolfspraul | from a PR perspective, it makes almost no difference whether you talk about 1 or 10 new features | 09:54 |
| wolfspraul | if you talk about 10, only the main thing will be picked up and understood | 09:54 |
| wolfspraul | so... | 09:54 |
| wolfspraul | we need to dose it little by little as it comes in :-) | 09:54 |
| wolfspraul | it sounds like Takeshi Matsuya will join the Linux on M1 porting project again soon | 11:49 |
| wolfspraul | I had a good email exchange with him | 11:50 |
| wolfspraul | he dropped out of free software after the March earthquake to help with some disaster relief project | 11:50 |
| wolfspraul | believe it or not he still has one of the prized rc1 (one) boards :-) | 11:51 |
| wolfspraul | I will try to find a way to get him an rc3... | 11:51 |
| wolfspraul | so let's see. it may still take some time, but he may be back at some point. just wanted to share the good news. | 11:52 |
| wpwrak | but please don't announce new features before they;re actually implemented :) that just creates pressure and perhaps even reluctance | 12:12 |
| wpwrak | (takeshi) excellent ! | 12:13 |
| wolfspraul | pretty cool stuff - this is what Takeshi did in the meantime... http://msg.wide.ad.jp/pdrnet/ | 12:14 |
| wolfspraul | bring internet access to hospitals and temporary shelters | 12:14 |
| aw_ | wpwrak, one question: can i use combination of 'poke' & 'peak' to specified words of register in nor chip? like to use yours: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/m1rc3/norruption/2/dumpotp | 12:20 |
| wpwrak | aw_: you can do pretty much anything you want with the NOR chip (using peek and poke) :) what exactly did you have in mind ? | 12:21 |
| aw_ | wpwrak, yup...i'm thinking if i can use them to make sure each block sampling w&r to simply check image not every time to spend time to wait by '--read-flash' parameter. | 12:27 |
| aw_ | bad that i'm still foolish in script. ;-0 | 12:29 |
| wpwrak | hmm, not sure what you mean. you want to read one word from each block ? | 12:29 |
| aw_ | yes....just random one word in each block. | 12:31 |
| wpwrak | hmm, what kind of problem would this detect ? | 12:33 |
| aw_ | i should say: write and read one word from each block after address A0000 (i.e. if I checked standby image is correct, then I don't want to readback whole sectional image to compare.) | 12:35 |
| aw_ | or say just each relevant partition image. With this way, can i simply use this tool to 'quickly' check if part of NOR are failed? Is it make sense or useless for productive tool? | 12:39 |
| wpwrak | ah, so you want to test if you can access the NOR chip at all | 12:40 |
| aw_ | exactly but part of each block or depends on partitions. | 12:40 |
| wpwrak | what you could do is erase all blocks, write an address-dependent pattern, check that pattern, and then proceed with normal flashing | 12:41 |
| wpwrak | and you'd first do all the writes, then all the reads, to catch things like unconnected address lines | 12:42 |
| aw_ | yes. like write pattern in each block then 'peak' back to confirm | 12:42 |
| wpwrak | of course, you can probably find all this also with the regular flashing and CRC check :) | 12:42 |
| aw_ | but not all address | 12:42 |
| aw_ | alright...seems i have to spend some times to study poke and peak. | 12:44 |
| wpwrak | you need the data sheet of the chip: http://www.micron.com/get-document/?documentId=6062 | 12:47 |
| wpwrak | and then this script should give you a pretty good idea of how things work: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/m1rc3/norruption/2/upset | 12:48 |
| aw_ | yup, tks link of DS. | 12:49 |
| wpwrak | $a = address, $d = data to write | 12:49 |
| aw_ | mm..'upset' has more syntax i can learn. It's good hint. | 12:50 |
| aw_ | wpwrak, tks. | 12:51 |
| aw_ | btw, how did you learn script before? Have any dedicated scripts paradise area you can point? But I think your script is professional enough. ;-) | 12:54 |
| wpwrak | hmm, shell scripts ? that was pretty much learning by doing. i don't think i ever even read a book about shell programming. | 12:59 |
| wolfspraul | maybe there are some nice and short bash tutorials? | 13:00 |
| aw_ | seems good way is to follow existing scripts all in qi server. ;-) | 13:00 |
| wolfspraul | how about this one? http://linuxconfig.org/Bash_scripting_Tutorial | 13:02 |
| wolfspraul | aw_: yes, following high quality examples is a very good way | 13:02 |
| aw_ | oh...yes...this is what i wanted. tks so much. ;-) | 13:03 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: be careful with what you call high quality, though. shell scripts are also often used for ugly convenience hacks. e.g., i wouldn't trust half of my own scripts as a reference :) | 13:07 |
| aw_ | btw.tks both of you about links. Have you a nice weekend. | 13:16 |
| wolfspraul | kristianpaul: I'm curious - you mention you considered the LX9 board. what were your pros and cons? what was the goal? | 13:48 |
| kristianpaul | wolfspraul: i consideredlike the 99$ board alternative in price no more i guess | 13:49 |
| kristianpaul | pros price | 13:49 |
| wolfspraul | what was the goal? price compared to what other price? | 13:50 |
| kristianpaul | for me no more than a cheap alternative for people who want a spartan-6 forimplementing milkymist | 13:50 |
| kristianpaul | goal lerning platform | 13:50 |
| wolfspraul | how complete is it? | 13:51 |
| wolfspraul | I don't mean in terms of peripherals, but as a learning platform | 13:51 |
| wolfspraul | can it work? | 13:51 |
| wolfspraul | can a university/class buy the lx9 and then use Milkymist on it? | 13:52 |
| kristianpaul | yes | 13:52 |
| kristianpaul | like the other avnet spartan3 49iisd board | 13:52 |
| kristianpaul | iisd/usd | 13:53 |
| wolfspraul | probably needs a committed teacher/professor to pull it off and dig out the nasty details | 13:54 |
| kristianpaul | yes | 13:55 |
| kristianpaul | i havent check about programing tought.. | 13:55 |
| wolfspraul | sure, I got it | 13:56 |
| kristianpaul | and no plan to buy the LX9, but is cheap and have a spartan6 and ethernet at least,not bad | 13:56 |
| wolfspraul | sure, we keep an eye on it | 13:57 |
| wolfspraul | I wouldn't be motivated to get one, but if someone is we should understand and look for ways to collaborate. since as you say it's technically close, at some level. | 13:58 |
| Action: kristianpaul out of battery charge | 14:00 | |
| lekernel | there's no SDRAM on it, is there? | 14:01 |
| wolfspraul | yes could be, good point | 14:08 |
| lekernel | \o/ nightlybuild | 17:12 |
| nightlybuild | lekernel: :) | 17:16 |
| Fallenou | 23:58 < wolfspraul> Fallenou: why do you think a 99 USD product would be cool? < $ 499 is more than what I spend on "really nice devices to hack on" (I'm not a VJ), $ 99 is totally OK | 19:53 |
| Fallenou | so I would be really happy to buy a $ 99 Minimist, find some time to hack on it, share my experience, etc etc | 19:54 |
| --- Sat Nov 5 2011 | 00:00 | |
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