#milkymist IRC log for Friday, 2011-11-04

wolfspraulback in the happy milky community :-)01:14
wolfsprauland nothing in the backlog...01:14
wolfspraulmaybe the reason Sebastien is so pissed about Raspberry Pi is that raspberry can do more than m1?01:16
wolfspraulit sounds really cool actually01:16
wolfspraullet's do some raspberry drooling01:16
wolfspraulit runs Linux!01:16
wolfspraulHDMI output01:16
wolfspraulBroadcom VideoCore IV, OpenGL ES 2.0, 1080p30 H.26401:17
wolfspraul'Milkymist' is listed on the "See Also" list on that wikipedia page01:18
wpwrakso a bit of raspberry fame will rub off ;-)01:33
wolfspraulha :-)01:33
wolfspraulit seems the raspberry project goes back to at least 200601:34
wpwrakso milkymist is pretty much on schedule. only 4 years, still one missing even to vapour-fame :)01:41
wolfspraulI think it's going great, really01:42
wolfspraulmy #1 concern is to find money for the various under-funded supporters01:42
wpwrakyes, i think technically, it's moving excellently01:43
wolfsprauland let me defend Jon's work here. Jon is just unbelievable in his commitment.01:43
wolfspraulshow him some love01:43
wpwrakyes, finances are very bad01:43
wolfspraulright now he is traveling again, his m1 in tow, demoing the m1 to *everyone* he runs into01:43
wpwrakand PR is a disaster :)01:43
wolfspraulI am cc'ed or bcc'ed on a number of mails, the reactions are often painful, but he keeps going01:43
wolfspraulnot really, I really don't think so01:44
wpwrak(jon) hehe :)01:44
wolfspraulMilkymist is quite well known01:44
wolfspraulpeople know it01:44
wolfspraulyou hear this everywhere01:44
wolfspraulpeople think it's shit01:44
wolfspraul(short story)01:44
wolfspraulthey laugh at it01:44
wpwrak(PR) i mean more in the sense of placing it properly01:44
wolfspraulridicule the specs01:44
wolfspraul500 usd screen-saver01:44
wolfsprauland so on01:44
wpwrakyeah, that's part of it :)01:44
wolfsprauland btw01:44
wolfspraultalking about that one01:44
wpwrakthe screen-safer is self-inflicted01:44
wolfspraul99 usd screen-saver wouldn't really be any better01:44
wpwrakthat's what you get for marketing it as .. well, a screen-safer ;-)01:45
wolfspraulno I think that is all fine, but this endless "more pr" is a bit annoying01:45
wolfspraulso unimaginative01:45
wolfspraulPR FOR WHAT?01:45
wolfspraulyes your input is right01:45
wolfspraulbut it's all work, even the understanding and positioning of a product is work01:46
wolfspraulthe korg kaossilator pro, seems a wonderful product, sells for 460 USD retail01:46
wolfspraulwhat's the bom?01:46
wolfspraul50 USD? my guess would be 50-100, at most01:46
wolfspraulit's a strong brand, strong channel, loyal customer base, fun product, sustainable pricing01:47
wolfspraulthat's my goal for m101:47
wolfspraulwhat is the milkymist story?01:48
wolfspraulI keep thinking about it01:48
wpwrak(kaossilator) innovative concept, too. musical instrument for non-musicians :) real musicians tend to joke about it as a toy. sounds familiar ? ;-)01:48
wolfspraulthe momentum it has now comes from the free software/culture side01:48
wpwraki think M1 as a instrument for the VJ sounds pretty promising01:49
wolfspraulthat's how I found it, you, Jon, kpaul, lars, etc.01:49
wpwrakget away from its milkdrop history. it's no longer a TV that you watch for the pretty pictures. it's something you control.01:49
wolfspraulmilkdrop connection may be good or bad, correct01:49
wolfspraulI don't know01:49
wolfspraulsee that's how subtle this all is01:49
wolfspraulyou can make a story "milkdrop hardware accelerator" launched01:50
wolfspraulor maybe not01:50
wpwraki'm not saying we should deny the milkdrop history. milkdrop is probably a good ancestor. but M1 goes beyond that.01:50
wolfsprauland you cannot change it every day, you have to repeat your story for a while. but then the clock is mercilessly clicking.01:50
wolfspraulremember how Jon thought for a while maybe it can be a set-top box?01:50
wolfspraulwhy not?01:50
wolfspraulI mean his thinking01:50
wolfsprauleverybody thinks about the box, asks questions. slowly understands what is easy and what is hard.01:51
wolfspraulI don't know milkdrop nearly enough to have any opinion on whether it's worth to tell a story around that.01:51
wpwraki must admit that i'm a bit afraid of jon's marketing ideas ;-)01:51
wolfspraulhe tries to understand the product01:51
wolfspraulwhich other way there is than to a) buy one and play with it b) ask questions01:51
wolfsprauland he is doing both, whole-heartedly01:52
wpwrakthe settop box is a good example: his question was "given a M1, what would i do with it ?". very few people just have M1s lying around ...01:52
wolfspraulI keep wondering how to pitch it to heise01:52
wolfspraulfor heise, would 'video computer' work better than 'video synthesizer'?01:52
wpwrakoh, understanding the product is great. but that should perhaps happen a bit more discreetly :)01:53
wolfspraulyou may dismiss this as some tiny detail, but the headline matters dramatically, in terms of conversion rates, whether people start looking up and reading01:53
wpwrakor at least with the proper disclaimer, to avoid confusion01:53
wolfspraulover the years I've read a few articles on movie marketing01:53
wpwrak"video computer" sounds very 1970 game consoles ;-)01:53
wolfspraulvery interesting I think01:53
wolfspraulmovies are interesting beasts01:53
wolfspraulthey compete with thousands of great movies that have already been made01:54
wpwrak"it's a video computer. not just the 7 segment LEDs the others have !"01:54
wolfspraulprobably everybody could fill their entire life watching old movies and never seeing one that is worse than any of the new ones that may still come01:54
wolfspraulbut how come the movie industry manages to sell one new one after another?01:54
wpwrakoh, i totally love old movies :)01:54
wolfsprauland they do take risks (even though people say not enough) in plunking down tens of millions or even hundreds of millions into a new one01:55
wolfspraulyet the marketing of that one hangs on a tiny string01:55
wpwrakbecause ... concepts change slightly01:55
wpwrakand sometimes new concepts appear01:55
wolfspraulso there is *A LOT* of dancing around how to market it01:55
wolfspraulfinding the perfect date01:55
wolfspraulfinding the right way to talk about it01:55
wolfsprauland still there are no guarantees01:56
wolfspraulsometimes a movie that everybody discards as hopeless strikes gold01:56
wolfsprauland sometimes one where you seemingly have it all in the perfect soup totally tanks01:56
wpwrakand movies tend to have short commercial lives. often, it's hit or miss01:56
wolfsprauloh yeah01:56
wolfspraulit's nuts01:56
wpwrakone very few miss first and are rediscovered later01:57
wolfsprauland sometimes they loose confidence, then the finished movie is shelfed for months until someone thinks they foudn the magic way how and where and when to market it01:57
wpwrakyeah, that too :)01:57
wolfspraulinteresting business01:57
wolfsprauland they are not afraid to compete against their own history, no matter how great movies are there already01:58
wolfspraulyou need to find a convincing argument to try the new one still :-)01:58
wpwrakanyway, i think we should focus on M1 as a video synthesizer. that's where it feels strongest. so one question would be what live video effect tools there are for VJs.01:58
wpwrakand what else they use, e.g., to pre-produce loops and such. and then see how we could incorporate such functionality.01:59
wolfspraultool for vjs, and people interested in vjing01:59
wolfspraulyes absolutely01:59
wolfspraulbut we need to turn our 'add feature' machine on again01:59
wpwrakyes, the feature set is too small02:00
wolfspraulit slowed down in recent months, making people feel it's dead02:00
wpwrakwe now have a great skeleton. time to add meat :)02:00
wpwrakyes, sebastien as the driving force has largely vanished. i hope that can be reversed.02:00
wolfspraulI think many people are open-minded to discarding their old habits and trying new things.02:00
wpwrakwithout him, the project will die02:00
wolfspraulnot everybody, but enough. especially if you kick them into that mode.02:01
wolfspraul"hey, time to try something new!"02:01
wpwraksure. there are always a few who are looking to be avantgarde02:01
wolfspraulnot just a few. I think you can motivate people to throw away their daily self-defense in dismissing the new/unknown/scary and making the jump into the cold water.02:02
wpwrakyeah if you can explain it well, why not. of course, you must still scratch an itch.02:04
wpwrakheh, an identifier in RTEMS: _Message_queue_Translate_core_message_queue_return_code02:06
wpwraksometimes, that code feels like a parody02:06
wolfspraulhow hard is it to address the green-bias problem?02:08
wolfspraulin your videos, when the blue and red comes out it looks so much better02:08
wolfspraulalas, it comes out too little02:08
wolfsprauloh, what do you think about my faderfox reply?02:09
wpwrakdunno. it's a change to the graphics-FPU (probably easy) but also an increase of memory bandwidth. not sure how bad the latter is.02:09
wolfsprauldid you understand what he meant with this micromodule drawing?02:09
wolfspraulSebastien pumped up the mem bandwidth somewhat when he tried to reach 1024x76802:10
wpwraki think he wants to know what control exactly we want02:10
wolfspraulmaybe a little is left to spend for more bpp? I don't know02:10
wpwrakyes, it may be enough. but i don't know for sure.02:10
wolfspraulany other feedback to the mail?02:11
wpwrak(faderfox) i was waiting to see if a reply would pop up somewhere before replying myself02:11
wpwrakoh, plenty :)02:11
wolfspraulhe may need some time to think as well02:11
wolfspraulI like his business02:11
wolfspraulor what I imagine of his business right now02:11
wolfspraulhe is doing this since 200402:11
wpwrakah, relatively new02:12
wolfspraul3 generations (now), some different varients02:12
wolfspraulit seems he manufactures it all in Germany, or directs it from there02:12
wolfspraulpretty cool. and his prices are not bad.02:12
wolfspraulat some point I hope he shares his supply chain with us :-)02:12
wpwrakyeah, i wonder how he manages that. his prices seem very competetive.02:12
wolfspraulnah, I think it's possible02:12
wolfspraulthe Chinese way of doing things is sick02:13
wolfspraulif a product can be made unmodified for a number of years, you may always be better off outside of China02:13
wolfspraulthe Chinese are unbeatable when it comes to making so many changes so fast and then still being able to navigate through the chaos *without* understanding anything02:14
wolfspraulbut when you slow down the iterations, and introduce some understanding, then things quickly get very expensive in China02:14
wolfspraulin Germany or other countries the *understanding* is always built-in02:14
wolfspraulso anyway, I'm interested in his supply chain at some point02:15
wpwrakyes. he seems to know a few things we haven't figured out yet :-)02:19
wolfspraulnah, I have a pretty good idea what's going on02:21
wolfsprauljust interested in confirming, going through the process and supply chain and cost a little02:21
wolfspraulwhere he makes the pcb, where he makes the smt/dip, testing, etc.02:21
wolfspraulmechanical components probably from Japan/Korea/Taiwan02:22
wolfspraulonly the very brave use Chinese mechanical parts :-)02:22
wolfspraulhe mentions the joysticks as trouble-makers because of gluing02:22
wolfspraulanyway I will not ask any of this now, that's not my business. but in the long run if we work together you bet I'm curious :-)02:23
wolfspraulthe Chinese really only have 1 skill that is all their magic, and they are the best at02:23
wolfsprauland that is to work on something without understanding it02:23
wolfspraulit makes them extremely fast and cheap02:24
wolfspraulyou wouldn't want to know how scary it is that this 'skill' also translates into medicine, hospitals, etc.02:24
wpwrakmechanical parts ... from ALPS ... that would be jaoan, right02:26
wolfspraulneed to check02:26
wolfspraulbut that wouldn't surprise me02:26
wolfspraulhe mentions keys, faders, encoders, joysticks02:26
wolfspraullet's see...02:26
wolfspraulon that pic, what do we have?02:27
wolfspraul2 joysticks at the bottom02:27
wolfspraul3+8+8+8+2 keus02:27
wolfspraulthe turnable things on the top, are those the encoders or faders?02:28
wpwraktact switches, to be precise02:28
wpwrakrotary encoders (endless)02:28
wolfsprauland the ones you can slide up and down are the faders?02:29
wolfspraulthen he mentions LED feedback back to the controller, which makes a lot of sense to me (initially)02:30
wolfspraulso there is only 1 usb cable going from the lv3 to the m1, and that's for power supply, midi messages into m1, and midi messages out (for example for led feedback)02:30
wpwrak(faders) yes02:30
wolfspraulI count 30 leds there02:31
wolfspraulwhat would we map all this to?02:31
wpwrakcould be "control is active" feedback02:31
wpwrakor "control has been actuated", etc.02:32
wolfspraul4 endless rotary encoders on top, then 3 switches, then another 8, 8 faders, 2 rows of 8 switches, another 2 switches, and finally 2 joysticks and another encoder02:32
wpwraklike in my message loss prevention video: the button lights up when pressed02:32
wpwraknot sure if i could also remote-control the button02:33
wpwrakwell, the button led02:33
wolfspraulthe best is probably that whatever you move or touch or press, something changes in the visual02:33
wolfsprauleasier said than done02:33
wpwraksome of the encoders can also be pushed to act as a switch :-)02:33
wolfsprauland then it needs to make sense so you can slowly grow into the system and control it to your liking02:33
wpwraki think we need a few layers to handle all this02:34
wolfspraulas I wrote in my mail, I think it's far too early to design a dedicated m1 controller02:34
wpwrakstep one: have the "core" patch. then add controls where useful. the definition of controls could be part of the patch02:34
wpwrakyes, i agree02:34
wolfspraulwe simply know nothing, or pretty much nothing, about what controls we actually want, or which ones would make 'perfect' sense for m102:34
wpwrakthe next layer would then map patch controls to real device inputs02:35
wolfspraulalso we shouldn't go out and work on the perfect system for a year, but instead take the controller and make it better little by little, enjoying what we do while we're on the way02:36
wpwrakplus you may have some controller library to provide meta-data. e.g., a rotary encoder may need special treatment if used for a non-cyclic input. so you'd have to declare this when configuring the controls for your patch.02:36
wolfspraul(and for this particular one we run into the usb-midi problem quite early :-))02:36
wpwraki think what we need first is practical experience02:36
wolfsprauland then gradually make it more meaningful02:36
wpwrakthat's why i asked about customer follow-up :)02:37
wolfspraulthe openess should, in theory, help on that path02:37
wolfsprauloh I know02:37
wolfspraulbut I think I answered it many times now02:37
wolfspraulI am super interested in customer feedback02:37
wolfsprauland we actually get a lot02:37
wolfspraulbut most is dismissed/ignored02:37
wolfspraulmaybe we need a whatwewantfrommilkymist.org petition with 10,000 signatures?02:37
wpwrakmaybe. perhaps it's also better to establish a dialog.02:38
wolfspraulI have no problem with customer feedback, I feel quite solid on it now02:38
wolfspraulJon even more so02:38
wpwraknaw .. one problem is that the recipients are overloaded02:38
wolfspraulJon is at this mozilla festival now, and pushing m1 hard for use with some full-time bbc djs02:38
wolfspraulyes I know [overload]02:38
wpwrakif we can have a dialog, one could just ask for feedback on a specific topic when one is about to work on that02:39
wolfspraulI try to send people to this channel02:39
wolfspraulgive everyone the freenode webchat url02:39
wpwrakthis reduces these evilly expensive context switches :)02:39
wolfspraulbut few make it02:39
wolfspraulnocarrier did02:39
wpwraki'm not sure if a 24/7 IRC channel is very appealing to most people02:39
wpwraki think a forum may work much better02:40
wpwrakIRC is good if you're dead serious and willing to spend a lot of time02:40
wpwrakor need a high-intensity dialog. e.g., for debugging a problem02:41
wolfspraulyes maybe02:41
wolfspraulone sec, back to the controller02:41
wolfspraulare there other types of controls (mechanically) that could make sense?02:41
wpwrakbut our mode of operation, basically hanging out non-stop and converging by sheer self-organization isn't what the occasional visitor can use02:41
wolfspraulor those 4 on lv3 is all that does?02:41
wpwrakyes. pads.02:42
wpwrakthere are more:02:42
wpwrak- potentiometers (similar to encoders, but with stops. may also have a better resolution)02:42
wpwrak- pressure/velocity-sensitive buttons02:43
wpwrak- jog wheels02:43
wpwrakthat's about all i encountered so far02:44
wpwrakalso, somethings come in different styles. e.g., encoders/pots can have a push-to-switch function02:44
wpwrakjoysticks can be self-centering or stay-where-you-left-them02:44
wolfspraulok good!02:45
wpwrakencoders can have a LED ring. pads can have a LED matrix too.02:45
wpwrakfaders can be motorized to travel to a host-commanded default position02:45
wpwrakthere are also drum pads. not quite sure how they work. they're relatively large02:46
wolfspraulif we work with faderfox, he can also give us some ideas since he works with modul8 in parallel02:47
wolfspraulsome knowledge sharing :-)02:48
wpwrakwhat i have in my possession this far are: buttons, potentiometes (many cheap ones and one that's good), non-motorized faders (again many cheap and one good), and one X/Y pad02:48
wpwraki think pressure-sensitive buttons could be interesting too. e.g., for adding images, in case you want to "inject" it and then let the normal effect processing mess with it02:49
wpwrakoh, i think he'll have lots of fun playing with the demo M1 ;-)02:49
wolfspraulwpwrak: I'm summing up some of the controller thoughts here http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_accessories#controllers05:04
wolfspraulwhat control interfaces exist? midi and usb-midi is a given. dmx too? I know very little about dmx...05:05
wolfsprauldoes osc overlap with midi in any way?05:05
wolfspraulso 3? midi, dmx, osc?05:05
wpwraki think OSC aims to be a better MIDI, DMX, etc.05:24
wolfspraulah, here05:24
wpwrakalso, we have the IR remote :)05:25
wolfspraulyes but that seems to be a super low-innovation scene05:25
wpwrakyet it's the only one that's been actively promoted so far :)05:25
wolfsprauldon't blame me for learning05:27
wolfspraulthat's already happening too much here anyway05:27
wolfspraulwhat I've learnt from remote controls (so far) is that all the manufacturers have maneuvered themselves into a corner where they cannot innovate anymore05:27
wpwrakah, how did they do that ?05:28
wolfspraulit's this cheapo 1-2 USD thing some consumer electronics companies throw into their retail boxes as an afterthought05:28
wolfspraulno attention for detail, no willingness to invest (backlighting, nice surfaces and materials, well designed, etc)05:28
wolfspraulI'd say remote controls are dead05:28
wolfspraulunless we go all the way out and design and manufacture our own05:29
wolfspraulthe dmx/midi controller companies seem to have a little more long-term horizon, so both them and their customers can innovate05:29
wpwrakthere are aftermarket remotes. some of them are quite fanciful05:29
wolfspraulI can just tell you what I've learnt so far :-)05:30
wpwrakit seems china has already eaten the low-cost segment of DMX05:30
wolfspraulthat's the problem when both buyers and manufacturers of a certain category device come to the conclusion that no more innovation is needed05:30
wolfspraulthen they will both race to the bottom price-wise, and their wish shall be fulfilled05:30
wolfspraulnothing much you can do about it, since it's the consensus in that category05:31
wolfspraulif you believe we should investigate more in IR, I will05:32
wpwrakyeah. and hard to get out of this, too, since people's price expectations will eventually settle for "almost nothing"05:32
wolfspraulyes, it's a consensus05:32
wpwraknaw, i don't think IR is very interesting05:32
wpwrakif you want to make remotes, use at least wpan :)05:32
wolfspraulyes sure05:33
wolfspraulI can just say what I learnt so far, and I keep learning05:33
wolfspraulI think we should keep the ir interface and remote we source now, just in case05:33
wolfspraulbut not make it a focus of our marketing or development05:33
wolfspraulbut I also wouldn't remove it (thought about that for a solid 30 minutes this morning actually)05:33
wolfspraulI don't want to write off IR as a technology, I think that's unwise given the largely open future of Milkymist (now that it's in especially).05:34
wolfspraulbut the manufacturers in that area I foudn so far are screwed05:34
wolfspraulthey just keep the old machines running, zero willingness to invest05:34
wpwrakwell, IR can be a cheap way to get input, in case you need it05:34
wolfsprauland we have it now05:34
wpwrakmost of the R&D cost is already sunk :)05:35
wolfspraulso I'd keep it the way it is, and maybe one day someone comes and innovates. but not me :-)05:35
wolfspraulit starts with our SoC being hard-coded to more or less only work with the remote we include (timing issues)05:35
wpwrakyes, that's why i say "most of" :)05:35
wolfsprauland goes on to the printing of the remote not fitting m1 at all, and the buttons not performing many functions at all either05:36
wolfspraulif I find a manufacturer like faderfox, or many of the bigger controller guys, who is active in IR, I may reconsider05:36
wolfspraulbut so far I haven't05:36
wolfspraulthe IR guys I found are operating with enough excess intellectual capacity that I would struggle instructing them how to mow my lawn05:37
wolfspraulin other words: zero05:37
wolfspraulI cannot even explain *anything* to them. they are just cranking out the old stuff at penny prices, and go home.05:37
wolfspraulnight and day difference to that faderfox guy, for example :-)05:38
wpwrakhehe :)05:38
wolfspraulok, even those 2 logitech remotes don't convince me05:38
wolfspraulthat's just the lots of buttons universal remote05:40
wolfspraulthat business doesn't work, afaik (old info from Steve)05:40
wolfsprauland they sell for 30 and 70 USD05:40
wolfspraulno way a company like logitech can innovate on that05:40
wolfspraulZERO chance05:40
wolfspraulno, like I said. I am impressed by what I see in the MIDI/DMX/OSC scene05:40
wpwrakkeep on scrolling. there are bigger ones.05:40
wolfspraulthere are some real businesses and real customers there. this stuff will move forward, they have the personnel and finances to move forward.05:40
wolfspraulhe, ok05:41
wolfspraulit goes to 350 USD05:41
wolfspraulI wish I could compare the volume of a 300 USD remote and a 400 USD kaossilator05:41
wpwraklogitech may win that comparison :)05:41
wolfspraulI have no idea which sells better05:41
wolfspraulnah, not sure05:42
wolfspraulback to the control interfaces05:42
wolfspraulwhich one do you like?05:42
wolfsprauldoes dmx overlap with midi in any way?05:42
wpwraki can imagine the logitech monster in a lot of homes, right in the middle of vast home theater temple to consumerism :)05:43
wpwrakyes, dmx and midi overlap05:43
wpwrakwhich ones i like ... hard to say yet. i only know four types so far. don't know joysticks, pressure-sentitive buttons, and rotary encoders05:43
wpwrak(among the more common ones i don't know)05:44
wpwrakjoysticks are what sebastien recommends. but i don't know if he has actually tried one yet.05:44
wolfspraulwait you talk about the mechanical parts now, right?05:45
wpwrakah, you mean protocols05:45
wolfspraulwe have the mechanical side, and the message format/protocol side05:45
wolfspraulthe 4 you know are: switch, fader, ?05:46
wpwrakmidi is okay-ish. widely available. osc may be technically superior, but seems a niche. dmx doesn't offer a big choices of controls. mainly faders, on/off, and X/Y05:47
wolfspraulx/y ? you mean like a pad where you can position a cursor?05:47
wpwraktact switch, fader/slider, potentiometer, X/Y pad05:47
wpwrakDMX usually seems to have joysticks05:48
wolfspraulwhat's the difference between potentiometer and rotary encoder?05:48
wolfspraulto motor-control the light?05:48
wpwrakone difference is that rotary encoders have no stops05:48
wolfspraulyou can also control color?05:48
wolfspraulon the patch side, most of the controls would map to a number/variable, right?05:48
wpwrak(color/motor) you're free to do whatever you fancy with those numbers :)05:48
wolfspraulwell yes, but I mean in terms of DMX lights you can actually buy already05:49
wolfspraulI don't want to manufacture everything back to the wheel myself...05:49
wpwrakright now, all the MIDI controls produce, in the patch, a number from 0.0 to 1.005:49
wpwrakthe DMX lights would use X/Y for motor. don't know how color channels really are handled. lights also have apertures they can change. somehow, DMX must address these, too05:51
wolfspraulwikipedia suggests that osc is a midi superset05:52
wpwraki just examined a relative simple DMX controller, similar to the one sebastien has. then i realize that about half of the controls were used up for hard-wired functions i had no use for :)05:52
wolfspraulwhich controllers do we know so far?05:52
wolfspraulor companies05:52
wpwrakfrontierdesign (even more exotic than faderfox :)05:54
wpwrakand then there's a host of DMX companies. very little overlap05:55
wpwraksome product URLs:05:55
wpwrakall these are devices i examined a bit as candidates. most of them should be okay. not entirely sure about the icon things, because they seem to rely heavily on host-based configuration. but maybe they're just plain dumb MIDI units with factory defaults, much like the nanoKONTROL2 i have (which could also be configured if i had windows/mac etc.)05:59
wpwraki didn't write down most of the DMX controllers i ran into. here are two examples, first an expensive one, then the ACME competition:06:00
wpwrakACME = Awsome China Makes Everything. this product family (there's a total of three variants, faders, wheels, or joystick) exists under at least three different brand names.06:02
wpwrakDMX units tend to be bulkier than MIDI, since they're for fixed installations. often even 19" racks.06:03
wpwrakdo you also want the links to the corresponding manuals ? :)06:07
wpwrakthe big name companies (yamaha, roland, etc.) may also have MIDI controllers. there's one "premium" product that others often refer to: http://www.mackie.com/products/mcupro/index.html06:12
aw_wolfspraul, the second rc2-2-rc3 m1 works well after assembly. I planed to let it remained rendering over this weekend.06:13
wolfspraulphew, ok06:28
wolfspraulexcellent links06:28
wolfspraulfirst dump into wiki :-)06:28
wolfspraulI think we should focus on small companies that are dedicated around controllers, yet have a good enough standing and customer base for real innovation06:30
wolfspraulmuch like faderfox :-) (from what I know so far)06:30
wpwrakfor direct cooperation, yes06:31
wpwrakfor product recommendations, the opposite :)06:31
wolfspraulto increase the value of m1, what do we need to do?06:31
wolfspraulwe need to document which ones are tested, which ones are untested06:31
wolfspraulfor the tested ones, we need to document how well they actually work with m106:31
wolfsprauland then we can have another perspective which is "if I want to buy a controller just for m1, which one would you recommend"06:32
wpwrakyes, that sounds good06:32
wolfspraulhomework galore06:32
wpwrakspeaking of which ... quarterly news ?06:32
wolfspraulbah yes06:32
wolfspraulcurrently working on my time-tripling feature06:32
wolfspraulI will do it06:32
wolfspraulanxious actually06:33
wolfspraultons of good stuff06:33
wolfspraulso you have a kaossilator pro, right?06:34
wolfsprauland also the older kaossilator, but that won't work with m1?06:35
wpwrakyes, plus a nanokontrol206:35
wpwrakhere is my setup: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/midi/vjlab.jpg06:35
wolfspraulwow the kaossilator pro seems big and heavy06:38
wpwrakyeah. inertia is good :)06:39
wpwrakin excahnge, the nanoKONTROL2 is a flimsy thing06:40
wolfspraulyou don't like the feel of it?06:41
wolfspraulI'm wondering how tablets and touch-phones will fit into this over time06:41
wolfspraulsurely there is controller software for the ipad already, I would think06:41
wpwrakthe nK2 doesn't feel very confidence-inspiring. you notice the difference to the KP06:42
wolfspraula cheap android wifi touchphone can be bought for ca. 30 usd06:42
wpwrakOSC ? :)06:42
wolfspraulyeah just thinking06:43
wolfspraulprobably our best strategy is to be flexible and just go with what comes along and is a real opportunity06:43
wolfspraulcheap, works easily, available now06:43
wolfspraulold or new, whatever. mechanical or touch-phone/pad06:44
wpwraki think it's good to have a choice of such ubiquitous devices, yes06:44
wolfspraulbut I also think we should go with brand that we can expect to be around for a number of years, whether small or large06:44
rohwolfspraul: touch was there already a long time... doesnt give the feedback of a mechanical slider. there are only a few touch-devices in that field that life long.. special input foo like the touchpad on the kaossilator.06:45
wpwrakso people can quickly build a first evironment for experimentation06:45
wolfspraulotherwise we spend a lot of time chasing disappearing one-off shows06:45
wpwrakthose who are serious can later explore into more professional solutions06:45
wolfspraulroh: sure, I want to stay out of that battle and have no opinion. enough on my plate.06:45
rohbut as a knob and fader replacement touch will not gain professional users anymore than it has already06:45
wolfspraulthat's why I say strategy is to be flexible, take what comes, document well, look for a little brand stability to not waste time06:46
wolfspraulroh: I wait to see what those professionals say with their wallet, not with their mouths :-)06:46
wpwrakroh: i see touch as an attractive choice for x/y. particularly if you make a lot of rapid inputs.06:46
rohwolfspraul: in high-end audio (studio eqipment in the hundredthousands) there were experiements with fullsize plasmas etc.. didnt get real succes.s. was very good built.. but nobody wanted a mixer where you couldnt feel the pots and knobs. simply failed in the haptics06:47
wolfspraulbut like I said we can stay out of that06:47
wolfspraulwe just compare, pick, document, recommend, use06:47
wpwrakah, and i think a tablet would make a nice companion for a more traditional electromechanical controller06:47
rohwolfspraul: whats successfull is special mechanical hw which shares functions (endless-pots.. motorfaders, xy-fields like on the kaossilator. but not full-'virtual' input elements06:48
wpwrakthe tablet could be used for things like image/patch selection06:48
wolfspraulwpwrak: have you seen any tablet maker that tries to market into such a niche?06:49
wolfspraulI'm just wondering - Apple sells to 'everybody'06:49
wolfspraulipad for everything06:49
wolfspraulok, easy to understand06:49
wolfspraulthe flood of cheapo Android tablets are mostly a total sales failure06:49
wolfspraulbecause they suck, on all of thousands of loose ends06:50
wpwrakwell, those logitech remotes go a bit in this direction. but regular tablet makers, no06:50
wolfspraulbut why aren't some of those cheapo makers zooming in on smaller markets? or are they already?06:50
wolfspraulinstead they try to follow Apple, also in marketing, and die06:50
wpwrakyou mean cheap droids vs. expensive droids ?06:50
wpwrakyeah, sure06:50
wolfspraulit's a good discussion with liu qiang to have next wed06:51
wpwrakthat seems to be just the way a lot of managers tick06:51
wolfspraulhow many android tablets his customers are actually selling06:51
wolfspraulI'm sure the controller companies must have thought about this already as well06:52
wpwraka tablet alone may not work, for the reasons roh mentioned06:53
wpwrakbut M1+tablet+LV3, for example, could be pretty cool06:53
wolfspraulthat's what I mean06:53
wolfspraullook from the perspective of a cheapo Android tablet maker06:54
wpwrakthe tablet would be the M1's control screen. sort of "console"06:54
wolfspraulwhat is his biggest challenge? I think it's marketing06:54
wpwrakseems that the droid makers don't network06:54
wolfspraulno money left for that06:54
wolfspraulyou don't realize how quickly salaries add up06:54
wpwrakalso, the cheap ones need huge volumes. so networking with something as low volume as instruments it probably right off the table06:54
wolfspraulimagine 2 people making 100k USD / year06:55
wolfsprauljust two, ok06:55
wolfspraulthat's 200,000 USD / year06:55
wolfspraulmany small guys may be lucky to sell 5000 units06:55
wolfspraulif you put those 2 guys on marketing that product, that's 40 USD / product!!!06:55
wolfspraulmore than the entire bom06:55
wolfspraulno way06:55
wolfspraulthose companies cannot even begin to process that this means etc.06:55
wolfspraulhow to recoup this money06:55
wolfspraulall completely clueless06:55
wpwraki'm not sure they really work with such low volumes06:55
wolfspraulthere's a frenzy of companies06:56
wolfspraulall running06:56
wpwraki see a lot of "generic" designs coming from china. with lots of rebranding.06:56
wolfspraulyou have no idea how many products never sell more than 10k06:56
wolfsprauleven among Taiwanese oem/odm06:56
wpwrakmaybe they're just copying from each other. zero R&D.06:56
wolfspraulthat's the price they pay for flying the airplane blindly06:56
wolfspraulsure, zero06:56
wolfsprauland zero marketing06:56
wolfspraulno money06:56
wolfsprauljust do the math06:56
wolfspraulit's not there06:56
wpwrakbrave new world :)06:57
wolfspraulthe typical taiwanese oem/odm will hardly know why a few of his dozens of products suddenly sell 'well', i.e. 50k and more06:57
wolfsprauland chinese - not at all06:57
wolfspraulthe problem is, I can have whatever story I want, I doubt I can generate much excitement06:58
wolfspraulthey can only think of their products as "the same" as the ipad06:58
wolfspraulno matter how far from that they actually are06:59
wolfspraulI'll ask liu qiang06:59
wolfspraulsales numbers of Ingenic-based tablets06:59
wolfspraulif it's low, maybe there is someone interested somewhere (I doubt it though)06:59
wpwrakyeah, you probably only could use tablets makers as suppliers. maybe you could strike a deal as with the ben, to have the thing at least semi-open07:00
wolfspraulyou can only go so far with suppliers that have lots of muscles but no brain07:00
wpwrakingenic don't have what you need. and the too-low tablet makers are probably dying already :)07:00
wolfspraulthen I rather ask for cash, and we develop it ourselves out of the NanoNote07:00
wpwrakyup :)07:00
wolfspraulno no07:00
wolfspraulIngenic is the driving force here07:00
wpwrakah, i see07:01
wolfspraulthe manufacturers are jsut the 'runners', if you will :-)07:01
wolfspraulif you can imagine...07:01
wpwrakwell, if they "own" the tablet makers, then you can perhaps suggest a ben-like deal07:01
wpwrakpick one with the lowest amount of non-free technology (e.g., no telephony)07:01
wolfspraulI need to understand the product, I don't want to join in this senseless running around07:01
wolfspraulI start by asking for sales numbers07:02
wpwrakmaybe propose to look into this approach, but make it clear you need more money to develop your side of the bargain07:02
wolfspraulif they are low, maybe the idea of marketing a tablet as (one type of) controller could make sense07:02
wolfsprauland it would allow us to let someone else finance NanoNote development :-)07:03
wpwrakof course, just a controller for M1 probably wouldn't be very exciting07:03
wolfspraulno it would not [just controller]07:03
wolfspraulbut if a lot of software comes into play, maybe the nanonote can be used as a starting point07:03
wolfspraulI shall investigate07:03
wpwrakhehe :)07:03
wpwrakone problem with "reassigning" nanonote development on a tablet is the form factor. but of course, you could make something quasi-ya-ish, just for the purpose of having a controller07:05
wpwrakothers may be interested in that, too07:05
wolfspraulI'm just looking for a way to funnel funding my way07:05
wolfspraulso much money is wasted in stupid Apple chasing that all fails07:06
wolfspraulit's scary07:06
wpwrakfunding is always good :)07:06
wolfspraulbut maybe inevitable, maybe it's the price to be paid for the entire system, and cannot be optimized07:06
wpwrakit's the price of being unable to innovate07:06
wolfsprauland they will keep sinking the next millions into the same mission impossible07:07
wolfspraullike robots07:07
wpwrakmaybe you start with people who can't do it. but if you don't break out of it once you would have the right people, you may end up with a culture that makes lack of innovation a virtue07:07
wpwrakeach time i read about massive R&D layoffs in big corporations, that comes to mind. R&D is a bad word nowadays.07:08
wolfspraulif you find an existing midi/dmx/osc controller maker that is offering some kind of tablet, let me know07:08
wolfspraulI will google a bit too07:08
wolfspraulunfortunately I hardly know sales numbers in this entire industry07:09
wpwrakbtw, if you haven't seen my "vj lab" picture before, then you may have missed the beginning of this posting: http://lists.milkymist.org/pipermail/devel-milkymist.org/2011-October/002038.html07:15
wpwrakthere, i also explain (briefly) how to set up usb-midi.07:16
wpwrakin your mails to faderfox you sounded a bit as if usb-midi was still impossible, while in truth, it's merely awkward (i.e., you need a PC)07:17
wolfspraulfair enough, although I think such a redirect takes us completely out of any 'user friendly' consideration07:37
wolfspraulso I didn't mention it, keep in mind m1 is already a lot to digest for him now07:37
wolfspraulno I didn't miss any of those mails07:38
wolfspraulthe pics are already in the wiki, ready for news inclusion07:38
wpwrakkewl :) and yes, it's more an engineering solution than anything to throw at end users :)07:39
lekernellast week I said I will restart large M1 developments in about two weeks09:14
wolfspraulyes and we are all anxiously waiting :-)09:53
wolfspraulactually we should spread the news of new features slowly, that's my job or Jon's09:54
wolfspraulfrom a PR perspective, it makes almost no difference whether you talk about 1 or 10 new features09:54
wolfspraulif you talk about 10, only the main thing will be picked up and understood09:54
wolfspraulwe need to dose it little by little as it comes in :-)09:54
wolfspraulit sounds like Takeshi Matsuya will join the Linux on M1 porting project again soon11:49
wolfspraulI had a good email exchange with him11:50
wolfspraulhe dropped out of free software after the March earthquake to help with some disaster relief project11:50
wolfspraulbelieve it or not he still has one of the prized rc1 (one) boards :-)11:51
wolfspraulI will try to find a way to get him an rc3...11:51
wolfspraulso let's see. it may still take some time, but he may be back at some point. just wanted to share the good news.11:52
wpwrakbut please don't announce new features before they;re actually implemented :) that just creates pressure and perhaps even reluctance12:12
wpwrak(takeshi) excellent !12:13
wolfspraulpretty cool stuff - this is what Takeshi did in the meantime... http://msg.wide.ad.jp/pdrnet/12:14
wolfspraulbring internet access to hospitals and temporary shelters12:14
aw_wpwrak, one question: can i use combination of 'poke' & 'peak' to specified words of register in nor chip? like to use yours: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/m1rc3/norruption/2/dumpotp12:20
wpwrakaw_: you can do pretty much anything you want with the NOR chip (using peek and poke) :) what exactly did you have in mind ?12:21
aw_wpwrak, yup...i'm thinking if i can use them to make sure each block sampling w&r to simply check image not every time to spend time to wait by '--read-flash' parameter.12:27
aw_bad that i'm still foolish in script. ;-012:29
wpwrakhmm, not sure what you mean. you want to read one word from each block ?12:29
aw_yes....just random one word in each block.12:31
wpwrakhmm, what kind of problem would this detect ?12:33
aw_i should say: write and read one word from each block after address A0000 (i.e. if I checked standby image is correct, then I don't want to readback whole sectional image to compare.)12:35
aw_or say just each relevant partition image. With this way, can i simply use this tool to 'quickly' check if part of NOR are failed? Is it make sense or useless for productive tool?12:39
wpwrakah, so you want to test if you can access the NOR chip at all12:40
aw_exactly but part of each block or depends on partitions.12:40
wpwrakwhat you could do is erase all blocks, write an address-dependent pattern, check that pattern, and then proceed with normal flashing12:41
wpwrakand you'd first do all the writes, then all the reads, to catch things like unconnected address lines12:42
aw_yes. like write pattern in each block then 'peak' back to confirm12:42
wpwrakof course, you can probably find all this also with the regular flashing and CRC check :)12:42
aw_but not all address12:42
aw_alright...seems i have to spend some times to study poke and peak.12:44
wpwrakyou need the data sheet of the chip: http://www.micron.com/get-document/?documentId=606212:47
wpwrakand then this script should give you a pretty good idea of how things work: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/m1rc3/norruption/2/upset12:48
aw_yup, tks link of DS.12:49
wpwrak$a = address, $d = data to write12:49
aw_mm..'upset' has more syntax i can learn. It's good hint.12:50
aw_wpwrak, tks.12:51
aw_btw, how did you learn script before? Have any dedicated scripts paradise area you can point? But I think your script is professional enough. ;-)12:54
wpwrakhmm, shell scripts ? that was pretty much learning by doing. i don't think i ever even read a book about shell programming.12:59
wolfspraulmaybe there are some nice and short bash tutorials?13:00
aw_seems good way is to follow existing scripts all in qi server. ;-)13:00
wolfspraulhow about this one? http://linuxconfig.org/Bash_scripting_Tutorial13:02
wolfspraulaw_: yes, following high quality examples is a very good way13:02
aw_oh...yes...this is what i wanted. tks so much. ;-)13:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: be careful with what you call high quality, though. shell scripts are also often used for ugly convenience hacks. e.g., i wouldn't trust half of my own scripts as a reference :)13:07
aw_btw.tks both of you about links. Have you a nice weekend.13:16
wolfspraulkristianpaul: I'm curious - you mention you considered the LX9 board. what were your pros and cons? what was the goal?13:48
kristianpaulwolfspraul: i consideredlike the 99$ board alternative in price no more i guess13:49
kristianpaulpros price13:49
wolfspraulwhat was the goal? price compared to what other price?13:50
kristianpaulfor me no more than a cheap alternative for people who want a spartan-6 forimplementing milkymist13:50
kristianpaulgoal lerning platform13:50
wolfspraulhow complete is it?13:51
wolfspraulI don't mean in terms of peripherals, but as a learning platform13:51
wolfspraulcan it work?13:51
wolfspraulcan a university/class buy the lx9 and then use Milkymist on it?13:52
kristianpaullike the other avnet spartan3 49iisd board13:52
wolfspraulprobably needs a committed teacher/professor to pull it off and dig out the nasty details13:54
kristianpauli havent check about programing tought..13:55
wolfspraulsure, I got it13:56
kristianpauland no plan to buy the LX9, but is cheap and have a spartan6 and ethernet at least,not bad13:56
wolfspraulsure, we keep an eye on it13:57
wolfspraulI wouldn't be motivated to get one, but if someone is we should understand and look for ways to collaborate. since as you say it's technically close, at some level.13:58
Action: kristianpaul out of battery charge14:00
lekernelthere's no SDRAM on it, is there?14:01
wolfspraulyes could be, good point14:08
lekernel\o/ nightlybuild17:12
nightlybuildlekernel: :)17:16
Fallenou23:58 < wolfspraul> Fallenou: why do you think a 99 USD product would be cool? < $ 499 is more than what I spend on "really nice devices to hack on" (I'm not a VJ), $ 99 is totally OK19:53
Fallenouso I would be really happy to buy a $ 99 Minimist, find some time to hack on it, share my experience, etc etc19:54
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