#milkymist IRC log for Thursday, 2011-11-03

wpwrakjust that i have something nice to say: i appreciate that the RTEMS sources respect the 80 characters maximum line width00:11
wpwraki would also find the general indentation pleasant if it wasn't for the 2 spaces increment that makes things just difficult to ready00:12
wpwrakof course, with those excessively long identifiers, they'd run out of room already at two levels of tabs :)00:13
wpwrakhmm, the allocation algorithm looks okay. damn. i was so hoping to find my smoking gun there :)00:46
qi-botThe Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-11022011-2357/00:47
aw_wolfspraul, good morning01:32
wolfspraulhi good morning!01:32
wolfspraulwpwrak: Adam is about to order a few more pieces of this and that chip. Do you have some final idea about the best reset ic already?01:32
aw_how about the new reset ic?01:32
wolfspraulit turns out we already sourced 100 of the 4.4v reset ic under consideration now :-)01:32
wolfspraulbut no hesitation, if we think another one is better, then those 100 will proudly go to the pile of stuff we left behind in our search of perfection...01:33
wolfspraulbut if Adam would know which one it is, he could combine the purchase with other stuff and we don't have to rush buying chips at last minute01:33
wpwrakhmm no, no final recommendation yet01:38
wpwrakthe 4.4 V chip seems to behave well at least when the system is up. need to check how it performs with a "cold" system and then plugging/unplugging things.01:39
rohfreezer tests again?01:39
wpwraknaw, i think the freezer theory needs filing next to the aether theory :)01:40
wpwrakthe bizarre change in corruption rate was probably just the uncommanded locking i discovered later01:41
aw_wpwrak, will you rise environmental temperature and cool down to test 4.4 V chip repeatedly?01:41
wpwrakaw_: no, i don't plan to include temperature changes in my measurements. too complex for my infrastructure.01:41
wpwrakbut i'm thinking of varying the supply voltage, e.g., to 5 V +/- 0.3 V01:42
wpwrakbut fist i want to kill that midi hang. alas, it's MIDI xor NOR bugs :)01:43
wpwrakwhen to you expect to send M1rc4 to the layout folks ?01:44
wolfspraulsure no rush01:44
wolfspraulwe are loaded with good productive work everywhere01:44
wolfspraulonly unpaid unfortunatelly :-)01:44
wolfspraulno no01:45
wolfspraulno expect01:45
wolfspraultons of work01:45
wpwrak;-)01:45
wolfsprauljust sold another 2 m1 last night :-)01:45
wolfsprauladam got the yield to 76 now, super great I think01:45
wolfspraulconsidering how it started01:45
wpwrakso when will you run out of M1rc3 ? :)01:45
wolfspraulhmm01:45
wolfspraulindividual sales are slow01:46
wolfspraulbasically comes down to finding friends01:46
wolfspraulthen there is an occasional 5-pack or 10-pack, those are unpredictable01:46
wolfspraulI don't know01:46
wolfspraulroh: do you have some friends you can talk into buying an m1? :-)01:46
wolfspraulI haven't looked at numbers recently, but sales are probably a little less than 40 now, and about 35 in stock01:47
wpwrakso you may still run out this year01:48
wpwrakmaybe we need a christmas-themed patch, to boost seasonal sales :)01:49
wolfspraulhe01:49
wolfspraulof course I may run out, I hope so01:50
wolfspraulthe key is telling the story right01:50
wpwrakand tell it to the right people :)01:52
wolfsprauldefinitely01:54
rohheh.. currently none with money who are in the vjin business01:56
roh+g01:56
wpwraklekernel: btw, have you tried to reproduce the hang ? the following should work: connect a MIDI device with slider. bring up MIDI settings. jerk the slider back and forth as fast as you can. after a few seconds (sometimes just 1-2), the M1 will stall14:31
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, are you following up with M1 customers to see what they're doing with it ?14:37
wpwrakand ... do we know the evolution over time of the number of subscribers on milkymist-devel ?14:39
wolfspraulhe14:41
lekernelwpwrak, I have used MIDI sliders a lot of times without problems. that was before your patch though.14:44
lekernelthe subscriber count is stagnating, there's perhaps a new one every 6 weeks14:45
wpwrakyes, the patch makes the hang happen nearly instantly, at least in the MIDI settings dialog14:45
lekernelright now it's 10914:45
wpwrakhmm, so customers don't turn into subscribers. perhaps the "devel" scares end users (if we already have touched that segment)14:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: when you ship an M1, do you also tell people where to go for more information ? or are you sure they generally know already ?14:48
lekernelyeah, I'm not complaining about such issues for no reason :(14:48
wpwraki think we should consider the M1 project in its present state as still fairly immature. what has basically happened so far is the trailblazing necessary for a proof of concept. basically implementing one use case. that alone is a wonderful achievement, but of little practical value to most people.14:51
wpwraki.e., only those who can stay very close to that use case would actually have a "rounded" product. while the others will find a lot of things missing, be it features, stability, or even community structure14:52
wpwrakbut i think the slow growth we're seeing isn't necessarily a bad thing. it would be nice if it was a bit faster, but there is some buildup that still needs to happen before you can successfully approach regular customers14:53
wpwrakwhere i'd define "successful" not only as "make them buy" but also "keep them happy after they've bought it"14:54
wolfspraulwhere to start14:54
wolfspraulno I don't follow up14:54
wolfspraulwe are lacking efficient means to do so14:54
wolfspraulmailing lists themselves are stagnant, that's not a way to reach any non-tech audience14:54
wpwrakfollowing up would be a good start :) you could just send them a mail a few weeks after the purchase. asking if everything is well, if they've run into problems, etc.14:55
wolfsprauland yes, the product is far from perfect, but the key is to keep fixing and keep being nice to people that respond anything back14:55
wolfspraulsure I could14:55
wolfspraulbut like I said we are lacking efficient means to do so14:55
wpwrakmost people should like such personal post-sale attention, and not see it as spam/annoyance14:55
wolfspraulnah14:55
lekernelI tried to open a forum once, it wasn't quite successful14:56
wolfspraul29 units went to people who will resell14:56
wpwrak(efficient means) why ? write a standard letter and send it to those ~50 M1 owners. is that too hard ? :)14:56
wolfspraulcommunication through them is a pain14:56
lekernelI think there was exactly one person who posted there in 2 weeks, and a hundred spam robots14:56
wolfspraulthere's maybe 5-10 true individual buyers14:56
wpwrak(resell) ah, i see14:56
lekernelat the end PhpBB, this piece of shit, got hacked (even though I had the latest version and security patches) and I closed the forum14:57
wpwrakyeah, a forum currently has the problem of small numbers14:57
wolfspraulthe product can and will get much better, and that will attract more users14:57
wolfspraulthat's the only way I know and motivated to work on14:57
wolfspraulactually14:57
wolfspraullemme send out the faderfox reply :) (cc werner, all in German though so I cannot really cc Sebastien)14:58
wpwraksure. but we should improve the communication beyond the "inner circle"14:58
lekernelcc me anyway, I can manage to translate14:58
lekerneland I need to learn German at some point14:58
wpwrakwolfspraul: how many resellers in total ? and maybe you can ask them to either pass your the e-mail of M1 buyers, or if they don't want to do this, forward your mail ?15:00
wolfspraulhe ;-)15:05
wolfspraulsometimes you seem to live in some far-away paradise world15:05
wolfspraulmaybe that's the Buenos Aires effect15:06
wolfspraulI have cc'ed Sebastien a few times on mails here and there, so I save myself from him asking the same questions :-)15:06
wolfspraulnot everybody is as excited and focused on Milkymist as we are15:06
wolfspraulthey just don't reply15:06
wolfspraulthey don't care15:06
wolfspraulthey reply 2 weeks later15:07
wolfspraulor 4 weeks later15:07
wolfspraulthey reply to 1/5th of what I asked15:07
wolfsprauland so on15:07
wolfspraulI can make this my full-time job to force answers out of people who don't care, but that's a real waste of time and I won't do it15:07
wolfspraulthe key is to find more people who care, and become proactive *themselves*15:07
wolfspraulnew people15:07
wolfspraulthe old one already know us, and do what they do15:08
wpwrakthe objective isn't to force answers, but to open a channel15:08
wolfspraulthe pull has to be on the other side15:08
wpwrakand maybe find out a bit more about what people do with it15:08
wolfspraul:-)15:08
wolfspraulyou don't give up easily15:09
wolfspraulwe know that :-)15:09
wolfspraulhow about: nothing15:09
wolfspraul:-)15:09
wolfspraul(it is slowly improving, but still true to a meaningful extent)15:09
wpwrakwhere should the pull go ? to the reseller ? to the sharism online shop ?15:09
wolfspraulit's easy to find the milkymist twitter feed15:10
wolfspraulI think that comes natural for chatting nowadays15:10
wpwrakif you tell people about the irc channel and the devel list, many may be a bit lost. the devel list may be too technical for them. the irc channel, too. plus, hanging out on irc 24/7 isn't for everyone15:10
wpwrakso they don't communicate and may even think it's their own fault -> nothing happens15:10
wpwrak(twitter) hmm, maybe. that's a world i know nothing about :)15:11
wpwrakif you approach the customers and make them know that you're willing to listen to their problems and questions, then they know already one point where they're welcome and that isn't too hard to reach15:13
wolfspraulI have seen some positive reactions lately15:13
wpwrakif you don't have the time, that's harder, of course15:13
wolfspraullet's hope they don't fizzle out15:13
wolfspraulfor example n0carrier who showed up here :-)15:13
wolfspraulwas that just the excitemend of the first day?15:13
wolfsprauland his m1 is proudly retired to a drawer now?15:14
wolfspraulor will he continue?15:14
wolfspraulthose things are invaluable, and cannot be enforced15:14
wolfspraulI hope he continues to use it15:14
wpwraklet's see. he said he had lots of trips lines up15:14
wolfspraulI hope he shares awesome patch improvements back15:14
wolfsprauland his experience with controllers15:14
wpwrakand yes, i'd love to have more nocarriers around :)15:14
wolfsprauland videos15:14
wolfsprauland and and15:14
wolfspraulbut... maybe nothing?15:14
wpwrakexactly15:14
wolfspraulI don't know15:14
wolfspraulhe is free15:14
wolfspraulwe sold one to the lzxindustries.net guys15:15
wolfspraulinteresting stuff they do15:15
wolfspraulwhy do they buy m1?15:15
wolfsprauljust to check it out, then drawer?15:15
wolfspraulor more?15:15
wolfsprauldon't know15:15
wpwrakthere are two things that need to happen in communication with customers/users: 1) find out where they want the product to go 2) inform them better what it can do15:15
wolfspraulI don't disagree with you15:15
wolfspraulI plan to spend time talking to people one by one15:17
wolfspraullike the faderfox guy you found15:17
wolfsprauljust sent the reply btw15:18
wpwrake.g., none of the existing patches use MIDI controllers. a few use DMX in, at least one DMX out. so mosr customers may not realize that they could greatly improve their M1 performance by adding a controller15:18
wolfspraulagree15:18
wolfspraulbetter documentation, better handbook, better patches, better update mechanism (better communicated and regular updates and news about updates), etc. etc.15:18
wolfspraulwe know it all, just getting to do it step by step15:19
wolfspraulwe sent one unit for review to a UK distributor, let's see what happens there15:19
wpwraklzx .. ah, see what the competition is doing :)15:19
wolfspraulno competition - just friends15:19
wolfspraulI think M1 is extremely unique15:20
wolfspraulsomething like this just will not be developed or marketed by anyone15:20
wolfspraulit's too risky, too expensive, too exotic15:20
wolfspraul(too expensive not in the sale price, but in development cost for a regular company)15:20
wolfspraulso we need to see what kinds of market positions we can get into that simply nobody else will be willing to match15:21
wolfspraulsome unique features, unique ways of combining things. I think we are close...15:21
lekernelAlles offen aber alles buggy?15:21
wolfspraulsure15:22
wolfspraulyou will get used to my humor eventually :-)15:22
wolfspraulthat's what he said, so I just share his view. let me translate his version, it's more diplomatic15:22
wolfspraul"the way I see it your project is of course wide open with almost infinite possibilities, but not really very user friendly yet in terms of customers who do not necessarily want to dive deep into programming"15:23
wolfspraulha ha15:23
wolfspraulisn't that great!15:23
wolfspraulI love it15:23
wolfspraulso I shortened that to "everything open but everything buggy"15:23
lekernelwe really need to get out of this perception...15:24
lekerneldevelopers won't buy them because they are scared of the complexity15:25
lekerneland users won't buy them because they think it's a programmer thing :-)15:25
wolfspraulyes15:25
wolfsprauland when he (or me in that case) say "buggy" that's not necessarily a technical bug only15:25
wolfspraulit can also be lack of documentation15:25
wolfspraullike "what controllers work with m1?" (werner above)15:26
wolfspraulbut I don't want to point fingers, I feel the todo list on my side very well and glad to work on it step by step15:26
wpwrakthat pretty much corresponds to my experience as well :) plug in audio for the first time -> boom. connect my RF keyboard -> mouse pad doesn't work. get serious with MIDI -> message loss (and hang). of course, not EVERYTHING is buggy. but a lot (or perceived as such). as is to be expected for a complex product that has gone through very few hands so far.15:27
wolfspraulI think most tech products are loaded with bugs. if we can really make a product one day that actually works in most user environments - WOW!15:27
wolfspraulI guarantee you it will sell like hot cakes.15:27
wpwrakbut of course, the more end-user your customers are, the less they will understand such shortcomings15:27
wolfspraulyes agree [werner]15:27
wolfspraulbut we are geting better15:28
wolfspraulgetting15:28
wpwrakalso the milkdrop language is mildly horrifying. i perceive it as a bit of an insult to the IT profession :)15:28
wolfspraulI looked at amazon comments for korg kaossilator pro15:29
wolfsprauland what's the first thing I see "serious usb-midi sync bugs"15:30
wpwrakyes, M1 needs to get a bit more rounded. meet "normal" expectations of customers. many things are at a "proof of concept" stage at the moment15:30
wpwrakheh ;-)15:30
wolfspraullet's assume this is a genuine user, am I surprised? no way15:30
wolfspraulthese types of products are crazy hard to "make work well"15:30
wolfsprauland Korg is a very respected brand doing this for 30 years15:30
wpwraklemme check this out :) that's may be something i found, too15:31
lekernelthere are tens of thousands presets which have been contributed to MD, no matter the "horrifying" language15:31
wolfspraulso one by one. We cannot expect perfection today, and I will as much openly talk about the shortcomings as I praise the things that work.15:31
wpwrakyes, yes, given enough thrust, pigs fly rather nicely :-)15:31
wolfspraulI bought this Optoma projector15:32
wolfspraulanother big brand15:32
wolfsprauland... believe it or not. they didn't manage to auto-detect the presence of a VGA signal.15:33
wpwrak(midi sync on the kaossilator) ah no, that seems to be something else. something i wouldn't have run into15:33
wolfspraulso when I plug in VGA, or just reset the M1, I have to fiddle through a bunch of menus to make the VGA show up again.15:33
wolfsprauland that's for a projector!!!15:33
wpwrak(crazy hard) yes, MIDI is a communication protocol. there are always two sides to it :)15:33
wolfspraulwhose only purpose is to *project*15:33
wolfsprauland a company that is selling this projector at least in tens of thousands of units is not able to get the vga signal detection to work?15:34
wpwrak;-))15:34
wolfspraulthat's the reality in the tech industry15:34
wolfsprauleverybody knows15:34
wolfsprauland that's why the lines on an Apple launch date are so long15:34
wolfspraulbecause people are fed up with it15:34
wolfspraulevery time I reset my m1 ... click click click, etc.15:35
wolfspraulI hate Optoma!!!15:35
wolfsprauland those buttons don't even have good tactile feedback, but whatever...15:35
wolfspraulso I am calm on M115:35
wolfspraulwe need honest feedback, then fix bugs, update, go at it again15:36
wpwrakyup. that's why i'm suggesting to bring up that feedback channel.15:37
wpwrakqi-hw is already operating a forum. has that one been a major maintenance burden ? if now, would it be possible to reuse the existing infrastructure for milkymist ?15:38
wolfspraulthat forum is not successful, using mediawiki liquidthreads15:39
wolfspraulmaybe I try phpbb one day, the most commonly used forum software15:39
wpwrakyou mean it's too hard to use ?15:39
lekernelwe also need to improve big time on communication/stories/PR, as I said many times this Broadcom project has incredibly more popularity than MM without shipping a single device15:39
wolfspraulliquidthreads has not been a maintenance burden, no. but also people are too unfamiliar with it I think.15:39
wpwrakhmm yes, looks a bit weird15:42
wpwrakeverything on one page ? who need scalability ? :)15:42
wpwrakalso, apparently no linear view15:43
wpwrakokay. not the best way to welcome newcomers15:43
lekernelwhen this broadcom project started, their website was merely a text file and a few pictures. yet, it gathered in 2 days way more media attention than MM in 4 years15:44
wpwrakwhat is "this broadcom project" ?15:45
lekernelraspberry pi15:45
wpwrakaah. well, it's cute, cheap, and broadcom is a big company.15:46
wpwrak(though i didn't even know they were behind it)15:46
lekernelwolfspraul, I can recommend you against phpbb. it's a massive security problem; the one I installed got totally hacked in 4 weeks, and even in the meantime spam bots were finding ways around the captcha15:55
rohphpbb? bwahahahah16:14
wpwrakso what does the CCC's forum run on ? ;-)16:17
rohwe dont run any. simple.16:18
wpwrakso what would the CCC's forum run on ?16:19
rohthere wouldnt be one.16:19
wpwrakthinking of it, i should still have some telnet-based forum software sitting around somewhere. that one never got hacked :)16:20
lekernelpunbb looks a bit saner16:21
rohforums only work if 'knowning' people read them and answer questions. they are bad for storing 'knowledge' and force inferior userinterfaces onto people. see ubuntu. you either get proper information in wikis/dokumentation pages or you read 'user guesses' in formus16:22
roheh forums.. the latter always being the informations of the lowest quality16:22
wpwrakforums work quite well as an information source if google indexes them16:23
rohwpwrak: only if they get filled by people who KNOW answers.16:23
wpwraki find most of the answers to technical issues in fora16:23
wpwrakand of course, someone has to provide answers ;-)16:25
wpwrakbut dropping off an answer is easier than maintaining a wiki page16:25
wpwrakmost wiki pages are "write and forget" anyway16:26
rohlekernel: you know nabble?16:29
rohhttp://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html16:29
rohyou basically subscribe that service onto your ml and people can then use ml as if it were a forum16:30
rohmeans your 'knowingly' users can still use the ml interface, their own mail client etc16:31
wpwrakso step 1: a milkymist-users mailing list; step 2: "archive your mailing list" on nabble ?16:41
wpwrakor begin with "start a free forum" ?16:42
wpwrakand what are the drawbacks of nabble ? ads ? spam ?16:42
lekerneldoes it make sense to create two mailing lists when there are 109 people on the current one and 80% lurkers?16:44
wpwraknavigation seems weird. all with the same url. is this flash ?16:45
wpwrakdepends on whether users expect to feel comfty on a -devel list.16:46
wpwrak(navigation) hmm, looks like some frames jail. you can escape, but then the formatting is pretty rough16:48
wpwrake.g., http://www.jboss.org/netty/community16:48
wpwrakvs. http://netty-forums-and-mailing-lists.685743.n2.nabble.com/WSS-with-Draft10-Support-td6945374.html16:48
wpwrakhttp://www.go-mono.com/forums/ has the same. to use the "back" button, you have to click it twice in rapid succession16:53
wpwrakads inside threads (just one per thread on netty, it seems. several on go-mono)16:56
wpwrakso .. mixed impression.17:10
Fallenoujust to let you know I presented shortly Milkymist at the OSHCamp in London on thursday the 27 of october, a few interested guys came to me afterward to get some more intel, I did my best to describe the project to them, they seemed interested17:12
wpwrakkewl ! we need more developers ! developers ! developers ! ;-)17:18
Fallenou( developers ! developers ! developers ! ) < isn't this a quote from steve ballmer ? :p17:29
wpwrakof course it is ;)17:41
kristianpaul(milkdrop language is mildly horrifying) YES YES :-)17:48
kristianpaulabout forums, why not try http://shapado.com/users/login ?17:58
kristianpaulergg http://shapado.com17:58
kristianpaulFallenou: any interesting qustion you we're asked to share here?18:01
kristianpaulAns btw i'll demo M1 tomorrow to free software people, he lets seems how it goes :)18:01
kristianpauls/seems/see18:01
wpwrakkristianpaul: when you demo it, do you show interactive use ? or do you just let it run rendering without adjusting the parameters ?18:39
kristianpaulwpwrak: wich parameters you mean?19:13
kristianpaulIt depends, the work shop we explored some variables patches19:14
kristianpauldor the*19:14
kristianpauls/dor/fot19:14
kristianpaulfor this case i plane, let it run with some patches asociated to kb so people can change it19:16
kristianpauland do some rsswall test19:16
kristianpaulafaik no more in the visual part19:16
kristianpauli plan also open case show board,19:16
kristianpaulpeople showed interest last time i open case (for something else not demo)19:17
wpwrakhehe :) very good19:18
kristianpaulbut i hold my breath, i saw a guy i qouted a nanonote in cparty when wolfspraul came to colombia, is going as well,19:18
kristianpaulof course he is free to use beagle board and non-free software19:18
Fallenoukristianpaul: nothing very specific that I would remember19:18
kristianpaulbut anyway :)19:18
Fallenousometimes they ask precise questions about how many LUTs the complete soc takes19:19
kristianpaulthat guy will give a talk about arduino =)19:19
Fallenouand I don't have the number19:19
kristianpaulof course19:19
kristianpauls/plane/plan19:20
wpwrak(arduino guy) how lame :)19:20
wpwrak(LUTs) ah yes, what occupancy does the FPGA currently have, in terms of logic, memory, etc. ?19:21
lekernel44% LUTs19:21
lekernelmemory is a bit more19:21
lekernelmaybe something like 60% iirc19:21
kristianpaulPLL, DCMs?19:21
lekernelwe are using some DSP blocks too19:21
kristianpauloh19:21
mumptaihi19:22
kristianpaulhey19:22
kristianpaulwpwrak: i will try to convice university see M1 as a computer science learning platform (why not?)19:22
kristianpaulthera re plenty stuff on it to explore for a while :)19:23
wpwrakoh yes ;-))19:24
wpwraklekernel: kewl. still plenty of room. thanks !19:24
Fallenoulekernel: what do you use the DSP blocks for ?19:24
kristianpaulFIR i guess19:24
kristianpaulalso FPU i hope ;)19:25
kristianpaulbut still division take 15 cyles right?19:25
kristianpaula lot of memory, where it goes lekernel ?19:26
lekernelmultiplications19:26
lekerneland MAC19:26
lekernelkristianpaul, caches mostly19:27
Fallenouwhat's the status of (clang/llvm)-lm32 ?19:33
Fallenouoh, and people ofter ask about the open source fpga toolchain19:33
Fallenouoften*19:33
kristianpaulFallenou: tinycpui :)20:34
kristianpaulvery nice entry20:34
kristianpaulhttp://sionneau.net/en/projects/3-divers/17-hardware-pipelining-example20:36
Fallenouahah don't post this here20:39
Fallenouit's really crap quality20:39
kristianpaulwhy not?20:39
Action: Fallenou ashamed20:39
kristianpaulno no20:39
kristianpaulNO20:40
Fallenouit's a first draft of what I think could be a pipeline example20:40
kristianpaulis okay, really i mean is documented, you wonder how many people got what is a pipeline in hw thanks tou you :)20:40
FallenouI am trying to get together a few elements in order to build a small 8-bit cpu, it's only purpose will be for me (and anyone reading it maybe) to learn about how it works20:41
Fallenouthanks !20:41
Action: Fallenou will have a hard time adding support for a new arch to llvm, 20:42
Action: Fallenou is reading llvm-lm3220:42
kristianpaulif works for you and is well documented (both hdl code and datasheets) worth the effort i think20:42
kristianpaulAnyway have fun !20:43
Fallenouyes I hope :)20:43
Fallenouthanks !20:43
Fallenouwill keep posting about it anyway20:43
FallenouInstruction Pipeline is under construction20:43
Fallenouanyway, for those wondering, it's not because I speak less here that I don't read everything which is said down here.20:44
FallenouI keep reading ML as well20:44
lekernelyeah LLVM backends are a bit messy too20:44
lekernelnowhere near as bad as GCC, but still messy20:45
Fallenoubut I guess it's better than gcc20:45
Fallenouyep20:45
FallenouI havn't answered yet on the ML but I am very interested in a "Minimist"20:45
Action: kristianpaul put sdcc over the table20:45
Fallenoua $99 product would be very cool :)20:46
Action: kristianpaul wich had improved a bit in last versions20:46
Fallenouthe only trouble I could see is dividing effort20:46
Fallenoutwo projects could be hard to develop in parallel and to maintain20:46
Fallenoudifferent bitstreams/bios/code etc etc20:46
Fallenoubut if it can increase the "early adopters" number, and therefore the number of hacker/contributors20:46
Fallenouit would be really good :)20:47
kristianpaulbios may be not, actually i remeber M1 bios have support for to ac97 chips already isnt?20:47
lekernelisnt20:47
kristianpaulah20:47
kristianpauls/to/tow20:47
Fallenoubut well, if you do one minimist for $99, I will definitely buy one20:47
Fallenoucount me in20:48
Action: kristianpaul was considering buya LX9 microboard ;)20:48
lekernelwell, first, from now on, I will not do anything that needs to be sold before a successful vaporware media campaign20:49
kristianpaulhe, so the 99$ board is a good start campaign :-)20:50
lekernelas long as it doesn't show in google trends, I will not do it.20:51
Fallenoulekernel: a campaign for what already exist ? the M1 ?20:51
Fallenouor a campaign for the new product20:51
Fallenougotta go see ya20:52
lekernelfor any new product20:52
Fallenouok20:52
kristianpaulbye20:53
kristianpaulso milkymist dont show in google trends, project is over now? :-)20:53
wolfspraulah I keep talking to the wall22:42
wolfspraulyour "successful vaporware media campaign" means that you raise expectations, that's all22:43
wolfspraulraising expectations is a pretty good way to fail, depending on what your actual goal is (maybe the intermediate publicity is all you need to land a new job, that's another case)22:43
wolfspraulI hope you still enjoy Milkymist and M1, and keep hacking on it. You definitely cannot complain about "nothing to do" :-)22:44
wolfspraulI think we are getting closer to establishing Milkymist as a serious technology and product, but 'closer' is not enough.22:45
wolfspraulwhat M1 needs next are serious large buyers22:46
wolfspraulsomeone who thinks this is actually a great product and orders dozens or hundreds22:46
wolfspraulwhat we ship today is not at the quality level such a buyer would need22:47
wolfspraulnot yet22:47
Action: kristianpaul likes its M1 and ignore google trends22:47
wolfsprauland... back to work :-) you keep envying Raspberry, I don't, I just hope they are successful.22:47
Action: kristianpaul heads to pasto22:48
wolfspraulnice22:48
wolfspraulwolfgang heads to coffee22:48
wolfspraulFallenou: why do you think a 99 USD product would be cool?22:55
wolfspraulyou want to buy an m1 but you don't have enoug money?22:55
wolfspraulenough22:55
wpwrak(vaporware) yeah, IPv6 is a great example of how that backfired23:01
wpwrakbetter have the thing 100% ready by the time you heat up the hype23:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: M1 at USD 99 and still profitable would definitely be cool. such would be the ability to fly to distant stars in the blink of an eye, teleport down to planets, always breathe the air there, and converse with the local humanoids in fluent english23:04
wolfspraul:-)23:05
wolfspraullet's see whether we can help Fallenou first23:05
wolfspraulbbiab23:05
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