#milkymist IRC log for Friday, 2011-10-28

wolfspraulwpwrak: I fully agree with your observations of showing M1 to friends00:42
wolfspraulone path to more media coverage is to be more realistic about where we are today, where we want to go, etc.00:42
wolfspraulif one takes a little distance from Milkymist, you will realize what a strangely limited and obscure product M1 is *today*00:42
wolfsprauland that's fine, but that's to be communicated wisely00:43
wolfspraulstekern: what price do you want to pay for the board only?00:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: what do you think of selling boards that fail testing ? you could even make an auction. announce which boards will be available a few days in advance, so people have time to read the test reports, and maybe get advice on what the problems really mean.01:02
wpwrakand i feel rather stupid today. yesterday, i macguyvered a very nice voltage dropper to simulate the effect a 4.x V reset chip would have in our system, using the existing 2.63 V chip. i did nice measurements and everything. it looked great: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/nor/d8/ddd.png01:05
wolfspraulsounds like unbelievable overhead01:05
wolfspraulfirst of all I need to work on the yield01:05
wolfspraulthe failing boards are very valuable to the future of Milkymist (One) if we take this serious01:05
wpwrakthen, today, i looked for the spares adam had sent - and realized that he had already sent me 4.4 V chips. so none of this was needed after all ...01:05
wolfspraulas you know I always try to make use of every last little thing, so for example for the rc2 boards, we got to the point that Adam had zero and I had to buy 2 back :-)01:06
wpwrakokay, you plan to archive them. not just throw them away. okay. that's a good plan, too01:06
wolfspraulno archive01:06
wolfspraulbut what use?01:06
wolfspraulI move carefully, no chaos01:06
wpwrakwell, one use would be to sell them :)01:06
wpwraksee if people are interested, etc.01:06
wolfspraulbut very limited, if you just look at the cash01:06
wolfspraulone by one01:07
wolfspraullet's give adam another week or two01:07
wolfspraulthat work is progressing very well01:07
wpwrakthat would produce those low-cost boards sebastien wants at zero engineering overhead :)01:07
wolfspraula handful maybe01:07
wolfsprauland not scalable01:07
wpwrakof course, it all depend on what defects they have01:07
wolfspraulwe need those 'internally'01:07
wolfspraulfor core contributors like you01:07
wpwrakyou may not need all that many ...01:07
wolfspraulfor journalists/review units01:07
wolfspraulfor ourselves so we don't have to waste a for-sale unit01:08
wolfsprauland so on01:08
wolfspraulor for repair cases01:08
wpwrakgiving partially damaged boards to journalist doesn't sound like a good idea :)01:08
wolfspraulsince we are trying to find root causes 'partially damaged' is not usually the last state01:08
wolfsprauleither it's completely broken at the end, or fully working but with too many repairs to sell as new01:08
wolfspraulif it's not in any of those 2 states yet, work on the board is not finished :-)01:09
wpwrakwell, eventually, you'll run out of adam :)01:09
wolfspraulwe have to get the yield up01:09
wolfspraul'run out of adam'?01:09
wolfsprauldon't understand01:09
wolfspraulAdam will work on rc3 now, then rc4. all full power. at least 6 months I think.01:10
wolfspraulI need to email my led lamp power supply friend again :-)01:10
wpwrakyou may have more rewarding work for him than fiddling with boards that may very well have suffered a unique rework mishap already01:10
wolfspraulyield is my #1 concern01:10
wolfspraulwe want to make M1 scalable01:10
wolfspraulI leave the prototype show-offs to others01:10
wolfspraulyield must go up01:10
wpwraksure. but there's a point where you write off a board, simply because you don't trust your rework anymore01:10
wolfspraulthat will bring more than any of the chip changes Sebastien suggested01:10
wpwrakthat's not a yield thing then. it's simply a board that had no more information for you01:11
wolfspraulnot really, but yes. in some (few) cases it may end like that.01:11
wolfspraulbut then we carry the yield problem over to rc4, where it will cost more01:11
wolfspraulbut yes, we are on the same page01:11
wolfspraulrc3 was tough, but in the end I am satisfied01:11
wolfspraulhard and calm work paid off01:11
wolfspraulnow the story... :-)01:12
wpwrakyeah, rc3 isn't too bad. had a rough start, but survived :)01:12
wolfspraulI think in order to convey a credible story, first we have to be more realistic ourselves.01:12
wolfspraulit was good01:12
wolfspraulI have only 1 PE01:12
wolfspraulit's all fine01:13
wolfspraulthere he is :-)01:13
wolfspraulwhat we sell is absolutely picture perfect stuff, I'm happy01:13
wpwrakapplause to the one and only PE ! :)01:13
wpwraktoo late to hide :)01:13
wolfspraulwe can squeeze more good knowledge out of rc3, adam is on it01:13
wolfspraulthen onto rc401:13
wolfspraulthe manufacturing part is my least concern01:14
wolfspraulmy concerns now are: pr, software updates01:14
wpwrakah, quick sneak preview on NOR torture: CE0 also had trouble. and then it did the "lock block 0" thing to me. this time, believe it or not, i didn't restart and insist on getting at least 10k cycles in a row.01:14
wpwrakinstead, i did the reset chip rework. it's now running. still too early to tell01:15
wolfspraulsorry lost you on the first line01:15
wolfspraul"CE0 had trouble"?01:15
wpwrakCE0 = the 2nd line to pull-up01:15
wolfspraultrouble = ?01:15
wpwrakthat is, it worked as before. the CE0 pull-up didn't help.01:15
wolfspraulyou mean CE0 didn't improve the NOR situation?01:15
wolfspraulok but it didn't make it worse either01:15
wolfspraulso it had no effect01:16
wolfspraulthat's not what I would initially call 'trouble' :-)01:16
wolfspraulor did it make things worse?01:16
wpwrak("as before' = within reasonable bounds. it corrupted about 20% less often, but that's probably just something that would disappear with more samples)01:16
wpwrakit didn't make things worse01:17
wpwrakokay, "trouble" may be a bit exaggerated :)01:17
wolfspraulI am thinknig about the low-cost Artix-7 board more. Maybe it should be a different product, or aimed at that. Like the camera we had planned for a while.01:17
wpwrakthe low-cost boards may be a good start for a M2.01:18
wolfspraulmobile product, battery powered01:18
wolfspraulI need to understand the product focus, to support it. Which I am trying to wrap my head around...01:18
wpwrakwith the artix-7 being brand new, and those FPGAs not exactly the most bug-free chips on the planet, i wouldn't touch it with a long pole for a good while01:18
wolfsprauland still wondering about the boot options, I guess I will dig into the datasheets myself now :-)01:18
wpwrakthat is, unless xilinx pay us for taking the risk :)01:18
wolfspraulvery unlikely01:19
wolfspraulthey have technical marketing for that, and we cannot compete01:19
wpwrakyeah. that's what i expect too01:19
wolfspraulwe may think we are the most unique and most genius folks in the world, but some others out there may just disagree or don't care :-)01:19
wpwrakso i put an impossible condition, to make it look as if i disagreed a little less ;-)01:19
wolfspraulhow about a product focus?01:20
wolfspraulI need product focus01:20
wolfspraulit must be a fun product01:20
wolfsprauland different from m101:20
wolfspraulso it could be mobile, camera01:20
wpwrakmain purpose: EVB for new things to try in M2.01:20
wpwrakside-effect: low-cost developer board01:20
wolfspraulthen just use a normal evb and then onto the m1 board01:20
wolfspraulthat is a total fail strategy01:20
wolfspraulothers can support it01:20
wolfspraulthat's what devel boards are for01:20
wolfspraulif you have no product focus, you don't know which bugs to fix01:21
wolfspraulover the last years, I found an almost 9 out of 10 correlation between this:01:21
wpwrak(which bugs to fix) sebastien's razor may work very efficiently there ;-)01:21
wolfspraulpeople that have never done any project with a devboard are pointing to some random dev board "this is so much cheaper than your m1"01:21
wolfsprauland people who are in the industry for many years and have worked with a number of dev boards are saying "that is so unbelievable that you made this product at this pricepoint"01:22
wolfspraulinteresting, eh?01:22
wolfspraulof course the reason is simple01:22
wolfspraulwithout product focus, a dev board is essentially unfixable01:22
wolfspraulbecause you don't know which bugs are important01:22
wolfspraulit's overheating after 2 hours01:22
wolfspraulis that a problem?01:22
wolfspraulfor a dev board - not really? or is it?01:22
wolfspraulso if this new board is just a very weird wannabe dev board, forget it. take the ones from professional dev board (technical marketing) companies.01:23
wolfspraulthey will be faster than we are, cheaper, better01:23
wpwrakwell, then no new board before M1 or FPGA-Nanonote :)01:23
wolfspraulbut if we can identify some product focus, we suddenly know which bugs are important01:23
wpwrakthat was easy :)01:24
wolfspraulhow about camera?01:24
wolfspraulthat would be mobile, new product01:24
wolfspraulcould be interesting01:24
wolfspraullaser projector?01:24
wolfspraulI think camera is closest in terms of reusing what Milkymist SoC can do already01:25
wolfspraulalso Milkymist is strong in computer vision, or could be taken there01:26
wolfspraulthat also leans to camera01:26
wolfsprauland we include a 25 USD camera with M1, that's 25 USD we can save if we make our own camera :-)01:26
wolfspraulanyway I just keep thinking01:26
wpwrakcamera may be tricky on the mechanical side. also, you need encapsulated optics (dust) and all that01:27
wolfspraulI spent some time on this, with visits to Elphel, working on Xue, visiting lense makers, sourcing the M1 camera, and so on01:28
wpwrakplus, yo uneed someone to actually drive the image processing work there01:28
wolfspraulof course cameras are a huge market with lots of differentiation01:28
wolfspraulI would just make the simplest possible camera first01:28
wolfsprauleven seen as a replacement for the one we include with m101:29
wolfspraulI just respond emotionally - in order to react to the artix-7 board proposal, I need to understand the USE CASE01:29
wolfspraulotherwise it's just tech juggling01:29
wolfspraulI don't know this feature, that feature, what to think.01:29
wolfspraulbut once we say 'camera' - then we can zoom in (:-))01:29
wolfspraulotherwise it's best that we wait for the artix-7 dev boards and then port Milkymist to that01:30
wolfspraulyou think we can beat the dev board? no way!01:30
wpwrakso who's the camera expert who will fill your contraption with life ?01:30
wolfspraulno expert01:30
wolfspraulyou scared? :-)01:30
wpwrakand your camera will be ridiculously expensive, compared to the barrel you're shipping now01:30
wpwraknot scared. but you need someone who "owns" the project01:31
wolfspraulsee that's the problem01:31
wolfspraulmarkets are competitive01:31
wolfspraulthat's why if you give up with the M1 synthesizer/VJ whatever now, you just look like a fool01:31
wpwraklike sebastien "owns" M101:31
wolfspraulof course, if you make a random dev board, you don't have that problem01:31
wolfspraulbecause there is no gauge for success01:31
wolfspraulso it's always a success01:31
wolfspraul"because it boots"01:31
wolfspraulbut when you have a real product in real life, suddenly, oh my, there are other ways to solve the problem!01:31
wolfspraulthat's painful to realize01:32
wolfspraulyour stuff is not needed01:32
wolfspraulthe other stuff is better, faster, cheaper01:32
wolfspraulbut that's exactly the type of thing I find interesting, and where the real business lies01:32
wolfspraulso you are right01:32
wolfspraulI mention "camera", and you say : what about A, B, C, D, E, F, G, ...?01:33
wolfsprauland yes01:33
wolfspraulit's exactly that because we have this list now that we can make a good camera01:33
wolfspraulif we make a 'dev board', anything goes right?01:33
wolfsprauljust "cheap" for the "cheap hackers"01:33
wolfsprauli'm not saying it has to be a camera01:33
wolfspraulmaybe sebastien has other ideas01:33
wolfspraulbut I think product focus would help01:34
wolfspraulto *focus*01:34
wolfspraulI think a mobile product would be cool, something battery powered01:34
wolfspraulbecause that's what M1 is not01:34
wpwrakYa ? :)01:34
wolfspraulthen it has to be a replacement for the Ben01:35
wolfspraulmaybe we can make a small board that even fits into the Ben case?01:35
wolfspraulbut you will see, Sebastien may not like the limitations of that case :-)01:36
wolfspraulproduct focus is tough01:36
wolfsprauleverybody wants to pull it in this or that direction01:36
wolfspraulwhereas on a dev board, you just throw a few more things on, or leave them unpopulated01:36
wolfspraulxiangfu: hi good morning!01:36
wpwrakcase ... mabe. the keyboard is a tad hairy.01:36
wolfspraulI like camera01:36
wolfspraullaser projector01:36
wolfspraulbut let me just reply on the list real quick with this realization ;-)01:37
xiangfugood morning.01:37
wolfspraulhow did the Lantern meeting go yesterday?01:37
wolfspraulyou can tell us the full story01:37
wolfspraulwe are in PAINFUL REALIZATIONS mode01:37
wpwrakcamera and laser both add a lot of complexity in new fields. you don't even master the old ones yet :)01:37
wolfspraulI will continue with M101:38
wpwrakalso, laser if probably a PITA to ship around01:38
wolfspraulI had some nasty headline ideas for slashdot01:38
wpwrakbtw, how big is the lantern ?01:38
wolfspraulsmall, maybe 8m x 20m01:39
xiangfushortly is 'waste of time' . the full story is.01:39
wolfspraulbut very prime location in Beijing01:39
wpwrakupscale ?01:39
wpwrakxiangfu: i already like the directness of your statement ;-)01:39
wolfspraul"Milkymist founder tries to inherit reality distortion field but it doesn't work"01:39
wolfspraulwpwrak: upscale, yes01:39
wolfspraulbut Beijing is difficult01:39
wolfspraulI mean different too01:40
xiangfuI goto there. setup the m1. then on person said we want .png/.mov file inside the performance. use usb-disk copy those file to milkymist.01:40
wolfspraulthere are clubs for the new rich Chinese01:40
wolfspraulLantern is not one of those01:40
wpwrakupscale is bad. you want something more experimental01:40
xiangfuI said there is no such function for now. and I can not guarantee when we can finish this.01:40
wolfspraulthose "new rich Chinese" clubs are mostly about high-end hookers (1000 USD per night etc), movie/reality stars, people arriving in Porsche/BMW/Lamborghini/etc.01:40
wolfspraulLantern is about electronic music01:40
wolfspraulvery real nice people01:40
wolfspraulelectronic music is small in China01:41
wolfsprauland acupuncture-records (the company behind Lantern) is a leading company in electronic music in China01:41
wolfspraulwpwrak: it is experimental, it's really a good fit01:41
wolfspraulthey have djs/vjs on the weekend01:41
wolfspraulbut let's listen to xiangfu01:41
wpwrakxiangfu: did you go there to make a sales demonstration ? or to make a proper show ?01:42
wolfspraulnah, we demonstrated before01:42
xiangfuthey kind of like the video-in patch. and I also show them how to switch video-in with other patch for make cool performance :)01:42
wolfspraulxiangfu went to sell & install01:42
wolfspraulbut you see the reaction "want png/mov from usb stick"01:42
wpwraki think the idea of selling to the club is fundamentally flawed01:42
xiangfuthen I wait the miao finish her task and give me the cash. (she said she want wiring the money at that day :)01:43
wpwrakwhy should a club buy it ? it exotic. none of the visiting VJs will know what it is.01:43
wpwrakand it's boring without a VJ. so what's in it for the club ?01:43
wolfspraulthe dj/vj is a weekend event01:43
wolfspraulbut the club is open 7 days a week01:43
wolfspraulon 6 of those days the projector is dark01:43
wolfsprauleven if milkymist only kicks in 10 minutes each hour, that's a nice thing!01:44
wpwrakthose dark days are your opportunity01:44
wolfspraulhey, don't think too badly about m1 now. in a club in darkness it does look pretty cool.01:44
wpwrakdon't send sales or tech - send a VJ01:44
xiangfuafter miao finish his task. her became to ask again. and said 'Jon/Wolfgang already said m1 can performance .PNG/.MOV file'01:44
wolfspraulyou should see it, it looks really nice01:44
wolfspraulJon maybe a little over-optimistic sometimes :-)01:45
xiangfuI said "no. no such function for now"01:45
xiangfuMiao: "I can pay 2000RMB first. when you guys finish this feature I pay other money"01:45
wpwrakyou should market to VJs, not to clubs. get the clubs to play along and allow you to make a show for their customers.01:45
wolfspraulthat is happening01:45
xiangfume: "our software is free. no charge for future after, if you pay other money for this feature. what about other new features?"01:46
wolfspraulwhat's bad about approaching a club for the 6 days of the week without vj?01:46
wpwrakso, find a VJ, make him/her use M1 very well, then send him/her with the M1 to do a show. contact other VJs first and let them know about the show. maybe bribe them with free drinks, VIP access, or whatever.01:46
kristianpaulWork shop went "fine", 5 people assisted, was a bit mezzy we got crazy making a simple patch by just reading the flickernoise handbook01:46
xiangfuthen she call Jon. and the result is "when m1 have this feature. I will buy one" . that is all.01:47
wolfspraulwhat do you mean with "got crazy by just reading the handbook"01:47
wolfspraulxiangfu: excellent!01:47
xiangfuwaste my whole afternoon time. and I have to re-package this milkymist one again.01:47
wolfsprauldid you get the m1 back in perfect condition?01:47
wpwrakthe problem is that M1 sucks without the VJ. if you sell it to the club telling them they don't need a VJ, the message they spread is that M1 sucks01:47
wolfspraulxiangfu: great01:47
wolfspraulWerner, lemme try again :-)01:48
wolfspraulyou have to be a bit more flexible now01:48
wolfspraullean back01:48
xiangfuI needs clean m1 and package it again.01:48
wpwrakeither actively or by having it there, sucking,for all to see01:48
wolfspraulthe alternative is BLACK SCREEN01:48
wolfspraulit cannot be more boring than that01:48
kristianpaulwolfspraul: ok ok, no i mean was nice it was playing and fun trying variables and trying variables..01:48
wolfspraulI am not talking about Saturday night with the live VJ01:48
wolfspraulscratch that for now01:48
wolfspraultalk about Tuesday night01:48
wolfsprauland now what?01:48
wolfspraulyou think M1 is more boring than a black screen?01:48
kristianpaulof course it take a while to get something to look good, but i guess all artistic work takes time01:48
wolfspraulor is your answer "hire a VJ every night"01:49
wpwrakno. but there are devices they can buy right now that will display their PNGs :)01:49
wolfspraulthe 'boring' problem may already be solved by having a timer that will only play effects 10 minutes each hour01:49
wolfspraulare you trying to be a salesman for other companies01:49
wolfspraulsales is work01:49
wolfspraulof course there may be lots of stuff01:49
wolfspraulbut our stuff is also stuff01:49
wolfspraulif it works and they like it, they will buy01:49
wolfspraulthat's why I think little things like removing standby mode are valuable01:50
kristianpaulhandbook is OKAY, just realizing in 4 hours there are lots of variables to be used is well a buit "crazy"01:50
wolfspraulbecause the barkeeper may just not know the middle button trick01:50
wolfsprauland small things like a timer, so it's not on all the time (=boring)01:50
wolfspraulthe M1 running in that club looks really nice01:51
wolfspraulespecially some patches of course01:51
wolfspraulI would make a selection of 5-1001:51
wolfsprauland show them 10-15 minutes for each hour01:51
kristianpaulfeedback from today: 1. That looks very well and smoth animation01:51
wolfspraulif they insist on "png/mov from a usb stick" first, then they wait, fine. and their screen stays black.01:51
wpwrakthe problem is that the patches need to react to the music. they don't do this without help. very simple. you're selling a car but you tell them it doesn't need fuel. sure, you can still admire the design and hide in it from the rain, but you're still kinda missing the point :)01:52
kristianpaul2. can i do multiple M1 talk each others?01:52
wolfspraulsensitivity detection needs to improve01:52
wolfspraullots of small features01:52
wolfspraulbut we are not feverishly hacking on it and adding features and releasing updates01:52
wolfsprauldon't tell me01:52
kristianpaul3. can i control effects with objects (computer vision)?01:52
wpwrakexactly :)01:52
wolfspraulI fully agree with you that the audio sensitivity level thing is bad01:52
wolfspraulas always your feedback just is 'common sense' and good (you wrote it on the list I think)01:53
wolfspraulso who can add it?01:53
wolfspraulmaybe, but it will be slow. eventually we'll get to it.01:53
kristianpaul4. can i do that same effects on my computer? ;-) (i poitend project M)01:53
wolfspraulSebastien wants to be in the evening news first, so there we'll wait a bit too :-)01:53
wolfspraulxiangfu: can you look into the depth of software and IC design to find out how M1 can auto-detect audio sensitivity better?01:54
wolfspraulit may be tough, but even if it takes 6 months, eventually we'll add it...01:54
wolfspraulkristianpaul: yes 3. that's possible but requires serious hacking I believe.01:55
wpwrak6 months is about what i'd estimate for this kind of research. isn't not a simple "implement this algorithm" kind of thing ...01:55
kristianpaulwolfspraul: yes i explain that too01:55
wolfspraulwell thanks a lot for doing that workshop!01:55
wolfsprauldid the marketing material reach you in time?01:55
xiangfuwolfspraul, I will try that.01:55
wolfspraul(sounds like no...)01:55
kristianpaulafaik not01:55
wolfspraulwell, then for the next chance01:55
wolfspraulalright, cool01:56
wolfspraulxiangfu: so you have a contact at lantern now?01:56
kristianpaul5. oh, so i can manufacture it my self and implement more effects?01:56
wpwraki want 3., too :)01:56
wolfspraulsomeone you can contact once we have png/mov from usb stick?01:56
xiangfuwolfspraul, yes. I have one.01:56
wolfspraul(which I'd say is at least 1 year out :-))01:56
wolfspraulok good01:56
wolfspraulthen back to hacking01:56
xiangfuwolfspraul, this guy is a vj. he combine some .mov files under MacOS/Modul8 and display it with projector.01:57
kristianpaulabout material i still can contact some people later01:57
wolfspraulxiangfu: sure ;-)01:57
xiangfuwolfspraul, I am not sure if he can decide anything. he is listen to Miao.01:58
wpwrakregarding the NOR, with the new reset chip, i had a bit of trouble getting the M1 to boot. not sure why - could be something transient (ions still in solution after rework, etc.). it now cycles nicely.01:58
kristianpaulbut man i agree with rejon, still missing more introductory material,01:58
xiangfuhe don't have any idea about the m1. he is waiting miao's order. (from my understanding)01:58
wolfspraulxiangfu: good! How did you like what he showed you with mac/modul8 ?01:58
kristianpauli had some surprises with video_a variable :)01:58
kristianpaulafaik i dont track adn dig FN code all days ;)01:59
wolfspraulI don't think m1 is competitive with what a VJ can do with notebook+software. at least until today I have yet to run into a VJ that would confirm what that would be.01:59
xiangfuwolfspraul, it not react to music. maybe a little bit cool. but I can do that too.(by download those small .mov from website. and learn some this 'modul8' :)01:59
wolfspraulvideo latency? maybe. still trying to find a vj who tells me they like/want that and it's better than on their notebook.01:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think you should really focus on advertizing it to VJs. ask the clubs if they can give you a list of local VJs that played there. arrange a gratis performance. maybe some clubs will even like it so much that they buy one. then you may even get some club-owned M1s ;-)01:59
wolfspraulwe do that already02:00
wolfsprauland we sold to some02:00
wolfspraulI think it's off to a good start02:00
wolfspraulbut people want lots of features, naturally02:00
wolfsprauland adding features on m1 is tough/slow02:00
wpwrakyeah. always :)02:00
wpwrakthat too :)02:00
wolfspraulso we have to break through this boundary02:01
wolfspraulxiangfu: I think it sounds like that was a worthwhile trip still02:02
wolfspraulyou learnt some things, saw the location, got feedback02:03
xiangfuI talk to the dj a lot. try to understand how he works. I learn that.02:03
wpwrak(boundary) yes, how ?02:03
wolfspraulwpwrak: Linux02:03
wolfspraulrtems may have been what got M1 off from the ground, but Linux is what can take it to the next level02:04
wpwrakhow ?02:04
wpwraki agree02:04
wolfspraulyeah how02:04
wolfspraulpray to the gods, every morning02:04
wolfspraul"oh Linux gods, hear me"02:04
wolfspraul"can you boot please"02:04
wolfspraul"and run flawlessly"02:04
wolfspraul"and upstream yourself"02:04
wpwraki see rtems as a dead end. corner and paint, with sebastien trying to sneak out of that corner already :)02:04
wolfspraulsomething like that02:05
wolfspraul"oh and can you please also make a mmu fall from the sky"02:05
wolfspraulI will try next couple mornings02:05
xiangfuif the idea(buy a milkymist one) is from a VJ. then the club manager maybe can easy agree.02:05
wpwrakan mmu may not be all that hard, if you accept that it's crazily inefficient02:06
wpwrakthe perfect mmu has been discussed, too. but of course, not implemented02:06
wolfspraulxiangfu: what did the vj you met there think of m1?02:06
wolfspraulfor m1 to take off with more vjs, we need documentation, documentation, documentation02:06
xiangfuin Lantern is like the club manager force the vj to use milkymist one. and the vj don't want to put any time learn how m1 works.02:06
wolfspraulmany more entry points02:07
stekernwolfspraul: I'd say aroun 350-400¬ would be a fair price for board only02:07
xiangfuwolfspraul, he say nothing. when I finish. he always talk with other people. there is no question from him. the only one is. "how can I copy the .mov file to m1 and performance it "02:07
wolfspraulwelcome to the real world02:08
wolfspraulstekern: email me at wolfgang@sharism.cc, we can work this out02:08
wolfspraulI need to find a suitable board for you02:08
wolfsprauleven cheaper maybe, I need to see and can give you some options02:09
wolfsprauland - thanks a lot for even considering this!02:09
wolfspraulyou know our Milkymist community is a bit on the extreme side of life :-) we need new blood to balance it out...02:09
kristianpaulwpwrak: actually i like (for now) i can check that libc see what it does and implement my own printf :)02:09
xiangfuwolfspraul, ( we need new blood to balance it out...) totally true. some idea from real vj.  :)02:10
wolfspraulxiangfu: it sounds like you did really well. thanks a lot for going there, and don't worry about not selling.02:11
wolfsprauldid you give some stickers and brochures to xiaowu for jon?02:11
xiangfuwolfspraul, maybe I stay in develop too much time. Xiaowu said I totally don't understand how  to be a good saleman and how to sale m1 to Lantern without .png/.oov02:11
wpwrakxiangfu: so the vj is basically asking M1 to not be in his way. he doesn't need it, but if management obliges him to use it, he will. maybe with his stuff coming from the laptop on composite video and M1 just displaying it ;))02:12
xiangfuwolfspraul, yes. I keep 7 stickers and 7 brochures form me. all others give xiaowu.02:12
xiangfuwpwrak, :)02:13
wpwrakkristianpaul: i can give you a few printf implementations that run very nicely on linux ... but, honestly, most of the time, i'm just fine with the one in libc ;-)02:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: interesting way of marketing-to-clubs even backfiring with the "native" clientele :)02:14
kristianpaulwpwrak: can you give me some examples how to use the FPU in milkymist inside a baremetal app? i havent time too look at it yet tough..02:14
wpwrakuh, no idea, sorry02:15
wolfspraulbackfiring what?02:15
xiangfuoh. we should add one feature. like switch patches by react to audio. that will be cool.02:16
kristianpaulwpwrak: sure sure, i mean i like my M1 a lot, besides i'm not full (but not zero) interested on visual effects (wich looks better on a frien'ds bar) i do enjoy HDL part, altought i still making some mistakes.. :)02:16
kristianpaulwpwrak: ah i tought you we're playing with simd in the M1, so i read backlog incorrectly02:17
xiangfuone patch for long time is not good. very fast switch those patches is very cool. maybe we add some random switch.02:17
wpwrakwolfspraul: VJ hating the M1, because management makes him use it. maybe he just hates it that this is being decided over his head.02:17
wolfspraulnah, that's xiangfu's impression from one metting02:18
wolfspraulall is good02:18
wpwrakwolfspraul: the reality distortion field seems to be working. at least the part with the blinds ;-)02:18
wolfspraulI don't think M1 can do anything the typical VJ "always wanted to do but never could get it to work with my notebook/software"02:19
wolfspraulif so, tell me what02:19
wolfspraulmeanwhile they can do DOZENS of things on their notebook/software M1 cannot do02:19
kristianpaulthey dont hate M1, in my experience they tought it lack some features compared to some soft that run on mac, but that alredy know i guess02:19
wolfspraul"lack some features" may be an understatement02:19
kristianpaulactually last feedback from VJ i got was about missing support for static and moving pictures (video clips) on patches02:20
wpwrakwolfspraul: one thing about the M1 is that it needs heavy customizing. it's an instrument. so it's quite unsuitable for a VJ if the club provides it. it's like someone giving you their PC.02:20
stekernwolfspraul: mail sent02:20
wolfspraulhopefully nocarrier took his m1 with him to tokyo02:20
wolfspraulkristianpaul: really? :-)02:20
wolfspraulthat's something we've never heard of :-)02:20
wolfspraulI agree02:21
wolfspraulbut then you qickly run into the usb-midi problem, or controller02:21
wolfspraula guitar with no strings?02:21
wpwrakkristianpaul: SIMD was about camera in pixel processing. a very specialized subsystem in the video data path.02:21
kristianpaulwpwrak: ah, but was a wishlist then?02:22
wpwrakyes, usb-mini sucks. today, i bought a kaossilator pro. that one can also do midi out. legacy midi. plus it can make music (my old kaossilator broke, so i was looking for an excuse to get the pro anyway)02:22
wpwrakthe next challenge will be to get the M1 to do something useful with the MIDI data. it sees it, at least sometimes. i'm less certain about its ability to actually act on it for switching patches. but we'll see.02:24
wpwrakand i still need to find out how/if i can make midi affect patch parameters02:24
wpwrakkristianpaul: (wish list) kinda, yes02:24
wpwraklegacy midi is dying fast. i think the low-cost segment (< 200) is already USB-only02:26
xiangfu(and i still need to find out how/if i can make midi affect patch parameters) there are 8 parameter in flickernoise. if that you want?02:27
wpwrakwell, tehre's one with legacy MIDI < USD 200: Korg KPC1 padKONTROL02:27
wolfspraul[it sees it, sometimes] sounds scary. hopefully not electrical problems?02:28
wpwrakxiangfu: could be, yes. i'll also have to have a way to tell FN which midi channel (?) provides these values02:28
wolfspraulman we need better documentation everywhere02:29
kristianpauli'm working on some basis about hdl doc, just give me some time !02:29
kristianpaulwill be cool at least if memcard core have more comments in the code too :-)02:30
wpwrakdunno. could just be the GUI missing some messages. or maybe the stack. or maybe it just doesn't quite know what to do with buttons. it seems to get the piano well enough.02:30
wolfspraulkristianpaul: oh great02:32
wolfspraulhearing "give me some time" from me does make me wonder though :-)02:32
wolfspraulthings like: will I be alive to see the results?02:32
wolfspraul(you see I'm in joke mood today...)02:32
kristianpaulhttp://milkymist.org/wiki/ <- how to02:33
wolfspraulTAKE YOUR TIME!02:33
wolfsprauls/from me/from you/02:33
wpwraki haven't tried knobs yet. ah, and i got a nanoKONTROL2, too. classical case of "it's so cheap, there's no point in not buying it". it's of course USB-only. so it'll need the PC to bounce back the messages.02:33
kristianpaulwolfspraul: no really i do _care_ a lot about documentation02:34
kristianpaulyes i'm realizing you like jokes a lot, even more that werner perhaps? ;-)02:37
Guest29224xiangfu, i'm adam; could you take an eye on this log to see where's possible err behind? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/milkymist_one/production/rc3/test_results/log/urjtag_lock_tmp_6F.log02:38
kristianpaulalso i care about my sleep so bye :)02:39
xiangfuGuest29224, I am not sure. seems like the signal between FPGA ---- NOR is not stable.02:45
xiangfuGuest29224, or the NOR is broken?02:46
xiangfuadam ^02:46
Guest29224the board after my heat air on fpga and nor chips, now it's booted and CRC images all passed. good news is that implied surely poor soldering on either under bga(i.e. bga balls) or nor chip's pad sodering. The bad new is I missed an clear investigation through x-ray inspection to check. Although this board is able to boot but will be frozen after couples seconds rendering.02:51
xiangfuGuest29224, then it maybe FPGA  soldering problem?02:53
Guest29224if i dump bit stream image to see if frozen while rendering will help to discover a RESCUE APP caused possibly or else BITSTREAM?02:55
wolfspraulwpwrak: another product would be a notebook02:56
wolfspraulmaybe too close to Ya, don't know. maybe big Ya?02:56
wpwraknotebooks are a busy segment. and you need fairly good specs to not look silly.02:57
Guest29224xiangfu, i surely think it's a soldering problem, but I don't want always to use heat air on fpga chip. Will a dump of standby bitstream can help? since I don't think so.02:58
wpwrakalso, components are more expensive than a ya. did you mention you found some financing ? :)02:58
xiangfuGuest29224, do CRC first when there is frozen.02:59
xiangfuGuest29224, when there is error. dump them maybe help.03:00
Guest29224xiangfu, checked done. CRC showed all passed when first frozen happened.03:01
wolfspraulwpwrak: hmm03:02
wolfspraulmaybe 'notebook' is not a good name03:02
wolfspraulof course it cannot compete with a multi-ghz intel chip03:02
wolfsprauland the rf side will be lacking, and many other details03:02
wolfspraulscreen resolution :-)03:03
wolfspraulmaybe just bigger ya?03:03
wolfsprauldo you see the Ya as having the same form factor as Ben?03:03
wolfspraulor can it be bigger?03:03
wolfspraulfull-size keyboard?03:03
Guest29224xiangfu, what's meaning of this? http://dpaste.com/642420/03:03
wpwrakno. ben-ish. maybe a few mm more, but not a lot.03:03
wpwrakif it's small, people are more likely to forgive weak specs :)03:04
wolfspraulbtw, about faderfox. was this your best companion for m1? http://www.faderfox.de/mark/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=165&Itemid=23903:04
wpwrakof course, the GHz race on smartphones will eventually change that, too ...03:04
wolfspraulnah, I don't think so03:05
xiangfuGuest29224, this is a test mode. when you hold the left button while power-on.03:05
wolfspraulyou underestimate the flexibility of users03:05
wolfspraulfirst of all stuff has to work03:05
wpwrakyes, the LV3 is the one that looks best to me, based on my so far only theoretical understanding of patch control03:05
xiangfuGuest29224, check the buttons again. make sure them is not stuck/hold . boot again.03:05
wolfsprauland LV3 can be hooked up to m1 today?03:06
wpwraknot directly, because it's USB-MIDI. but apparently, you could connect it via a PC with USB-MIDI adapter (USD 15 in argentina, so 1-2 g of low-quality rice in china :)03:07
wpwrakor, of course, add USB-MIDI support :)03:07
Guest29224xiangfu, why it shows "Memory test failed, entering manual mode."? and you saw it was a btn problem?03:07
wolfspraulhe sells it for 210 EUR + vat03:08
wolfspraulwhere I would estimate the bom solidly less than 50 EUR03:08
wolfspraulthe famous bom03:08
wolfspraulwe should advise him to sell for 99 EUR to sell more :-)03:08
wolfspraulI will contact him about m103:08
wolfspraulmaybe we can sell as a bundle or so03:08
wpwrakthey may all be hand-made ;-)03:08
wolfspraulof course needs to add usb-midi on our side03:08
wolfsprauloh I think it's fine03:09
wolfspraul250 EUR for a nice little controller like this, it's ok03:09
xiangfuGuest29224, sorry. forget my last mesage. can you use werner's tool for load the bitstream.03:10
Guest29224xiangfu, i'm dumping standby first. Where's load the bitstream?03:12
xiangfuGuest29224, the tools is : http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/m1/jtag-boot03:12
Guest29224xiangfu, okay..good thanks03:12
xiangfuGuest29224, oh. it BIOS problem. or hardware problem. so we should dump bios first03:13
xiangfuGuest29224, I am add this small feature to this script file.03:19
xiangfuGuest29224, wait one memont03:19
xiangfuGuest29224, finish please update reflash_m1.sh03:23
xiangfuGuest29224, read bios is : './reflash_m1.sh --read-flash bios'03:23
GitHub197[scripts] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/1qEhgQ03:25
GitHub197[scripts/master] reflash_m1.sh: add --read-flash parameters - Xiangfu Liu03:25
Guest29224xiangfu, great tks03:26
wolfspraulok I checked the artix-7 datasheet and it appears it does not offer boot (configuration) options beyond spi and parallel nor06:07
wpwrakalso not boot from MCU ? spartan has that06:19
wolfspraullet's see... http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/data_sheets/ds180_7Series_Overview.pdf06:31
wolfspraul(for the record)06:32
wolfspraulthose are both short, wondering where the full datasheet is06:33
wolfspraulhere http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/user_guides/ug470_7Series_Config.pdf06:37
wpwrakthat looks right. let's see ..06:37
wpwrakyeah, about the same as the spartan06:38
wolfspraulthe only way to get it to load from a memcard would be another chip that shuffles it into memory first06:43
wpwrakyup. yet another avr ? ;-)06:44
lekernelwolfspraul, did you know that RTEMS supports libpng, libjpeg and probably other image libraries with the exact same API as Linux?07:50
wolfspraulthe Linux thing is long-term07:55
wolfspraulyou are right - until FN works on Linux without regressions from rtems, no need to do anything07:55
wolfspraulwhat are things/features a VJ can do on M1 that are different from quartz/resolume/modul8/vvvv ?07:58
wolfspraulmaybe we should appeal to the pioneering VJs, I think some are quite open-minded to hacking and diving to deep levels of visual manipulation07:59
lekernelwell, the whole principle is different08:02
lekernelthose programs basically alpha-blend video clips with some graphics primitives, with things like color shifts, chroma key, etc.08:03
lekernelit's actually simpler than the FN processing in many cases08:04
wolfspraulok, and how does FN differ from that alpha blending with color shifts, chroma key, etc. ?08:05
lekernelFN is entirely based on video feedback + distortion, mixing live video (not clips) and a few graphics primitives (borders, waves, etc.)08:05
lekernelthe main thing that traditional VJ software can do and FN cannot is play video clips08:06
lekerneland controls from a separate screen08:06
lekernelthat's about it08:06
wolfspraulno need to catch up, we should highlight what is different08:06
lekernelFN right now is very different than the other VJ software, which unfortunately seems strongly implanted08:07
lekernelhence my idea of the desperatemist, to give them an easy way to taste it ...08:08
wolfsprauljust a video manipulation box?08:09
wolfspraulthe distorter08:09
lekernelwell, basically yes08:10
wolfspraulok let me re-read your feature list with my mind set on 'distorter'08:12
wolfsprauldo you think internal-mic only will be enough to get quality input data for the visual effects, with accurate sensitivity in multiple frequency bands etc?08:40
wolfspraulsomehow it feels like line-in will give you a much better starting point in the typical vj/party/event environment08:41
wolfspraulsecond question - how do you see the networking of that board?08:41
wolfspraulin terms of pricing, two things stand out. nor flash 10.50 usd, adv7181c ca. 12 usd08:44
wolfspraulI don't think that's very important, but you zoom in on a number of smaller items so I thought I highlight those08:45
lekernelwell, as Werner suggested we can use serial flash08:46
lekernelin theory it shouldn't be much fuss08:46
wolfspraulI'm not suggesting that08:46
lekernelhe, it's a new design. it would even make PCB routing easier.08:47
wolfspraulhow about my 2 questions08:47
wolfspraul1. is mic-in enough for vj use case? sensitivity in different frequency bands etc?08:47
wolfspraul2. what is the networking of that board?08:47
lekernel1. I think so, and we can improve it in software (including in the current M1)08:47
lekernel2. either Ethernet (for updates, file transfers and development) or none08:48
wolfspraulok, will keep thinking08:52
wolfspraulthe new board seems cannot do anything that the existing m1 could not do. except for digital video which we have a good plan for with dvi-i.08:52
lekernelno, I told you it's an entry-level spinoff08:53
wolfspraulhow about my idea of focusing it around a new product?08:56
wolfspraullike a camera08:56
wolfspraulsomething different, mobile maybe, or towards rf/dsp as you mentioned once?08:56
wolfspraulif cost would be our only concern, it would always be cheaper to just discount our existing product08:57
wolfspraulbut if that's the case it's just another way of saying that Milkymist cannot create any meaningful value, not a good sign going forward08:57
wolfspraulso I'd rather focus on explaining why Milkymist is unique and good08:58
wolfspraulI will think a bit more about 'distorter', maybe I finally get it08:58
wolfspraulbut no networking, wow08:58
wolfspraulmaybe over USB :-)08:58
lekernelyeah, why not, hopefully we'll get the cheap hackers on board this time08:59
wolfspraul'why not' refers to what?09:00
wolfspraulI think you are a little lost as to what you want to achieve with the minimist09:01
wolfspraulother than the masses cheering, of course09:01
lekernelno networking09:01
lekerneland over USB09:01
lekernelmasses cheering is a major concern in my view. people have never heard about the M1 just because of the silence.09:05
lekerneland we have tried: Linux Magazine France (2x), Linux-Magazin Germany (2x), Slashdot (2x), The Register, Make Magazine (3x), Xcell, and more09:06
lekernelplus at least as many conferences09:06
lekernelseems nothing will do09:06
lekernelah and I forgot Elektor (in 4 languages) in the list09:07
lekernelmeanwhile... http://www.google.com/trends?q=%22raspberry+pi%22%2Cmilkymist09:10
lekernelof course, we can simply use vaporware and no actual product09:11
wolfspraulI like raspberry, I think he will deliver (guess)09:11
wolfspraulMilkymist One has every potential to be an outstanding product and computer, that seems to me to be the best option to lift that up and market it.09:12
wolfspraulbut of course a new idea may be even better, so who knows09:13
wolfspraulI think we should pump up M1 for a few years, of course trying to build a real business with it09:15
wolfsprauland in that process we can add and remove features09:15
lekernelfor new ideas... PR first and if it's not appearing on google trends, give it up09:16
wolfspraulbut I would do it all organically09:16
lekernelI don't want any other superfrustrating experience like M109:16
wolfspraulhe :-)09:17
wolfspraulif you don't enjoy hacking on Milkymist or M1 you shouldn't09:17
wolfsprauljust wait a while and see whether the motivation comes back maybe09:17
lekernelwell, I really used to. but the silence has been depressing lately.09:18
wolfspraulM1 is just out, and many people like it. they all want more features though :-)09:18
wolfsprauleverybody wants features09:18
lekernelwell, yes, that's one plus :-)09:18
wolfspraulmore patches09:18
wolfsprauland and and09:18
lekernelyes, I hear you09:18
wolfspraulwell that's not bad, that's why I think we should continue to charge a premium and try to grow the sales and deliver the features people want.09:19
lekernelbut I mean, look at google trends. terrible...09:19
wolfspraulI would not disagree with you09:19
wolfspraulthe story is not clear09:20
wolfspraullike a sculpture, but big parts are still unsculpted09:20
wolfspraulI think that's a side-effect of Milkymist being so ambitious09:21
wolfspraulpeople don't understand IC design, fpgas, many of the tools in that area09:21
wolfspraulso you say "you can build great products with that"09:21
wolfspraulthey will say "ok, show me"09:22
wolfspraul"something like the iphone?"09:22
wolfspraulwe have to proove ourselves09:22
wolfspraulthat's how I see M109:22
wolfspraulI'm amazed by how much it can do today, not by how much is missing (=could be added)09:22
wolfspraulwhy don't we wait for Simon's feedback09:23
wolfspraulyou like them, and I'm positive too though I didn't meet in person09:24
wolfspraulI have a vague idea what the feedback will be, but we see soon. They have the very best of our efforts in their hands soon...09:24
wolfspraulyou showed M1 to Massimo, what did he think?09:29
lekernelhe didn't see it running, just the packaging09:29
wolfspraulhmm, ok09:30
wolfspraulyou need a few hours conversation09:30
wolfspraulto talk about m1 the product, milkymist the underlying technology, your thoughts on marketing ("popularity") etc09:31
lekernelsome Edirol people saw it (at the vision-r festival) and were amazed09:31
lekernelthat was a rc2 running, without packaging09:32
wolfspraulmaybe we just haven't demoed to the right person yet :-)09:32
lekernelalso: I had set it up myself. seems people have problems with the GUI, for example even Yi didn't figure out how to map patches on the keyboard09:33
lekernelotoh I don't find modul8 etc. very user-friendly either, but there is a lot of documentation and even workshops, mostly from users in fact ...09:34
lekernelchicken/egg problem09:35
wolfspraulI think our main competition is the notebook, at least from a VJ perspective10:15
wolfspraulunless you see m1 differently like a video art box, Jon found www.turningart.com for example10:16
wolfspraulso if the main competition is the notebook, we should work on features that differentiate us from notebooks10:16
wolfspraulI would definitely leave the MIDI there, for example, even though it's going away, or precisely because it is going away.10:17
wolfspraulvideo-in is good, maybe even multiple video-in ?10:17
wolfspraulDMX is good10:17
wolfspraulUSB needs to become stronger10:17
wolfspraulwe know roughly what to expect from notebooks in the future10:17
wolfspraulmore megahertz, more ram, less connectors, more rf10:18
wolfspraulwe need to work on features that are relatively easy to be implemented in our architecture, but hard on a notebook10:18
wolfspraulplus documentation10:18
wolfspraulit will take years, really10:18
wolfspraulfor low-cost, like I described yesterday I believe in the approach of upgrading the tech on the main product, and then selling older revs at cost10:19
wolfspraulthat solves all problems at once, and that's what a brand company is typically doing10:19
wolfspraulif you upgrade a key chip (s-6 to a-7), and then provide this upgrade on a low-cost version, well. that's something I have never seen before :-)10:20
wolfspraulif that's the whole story, then it looks like self-destruct10:20
wolfspraulthe upgrade needs to come out on top, and the older stuff is sold at cost10:20
lekernelyou're overestimating a-710:21
wolfspraulyes I don't want to read too much into it10:21
wolfsprauljust explaining my low-cost thinking10:21
wolfspraulI think we can make the lowest-cost milkymist device10:21
wolfspraulfor example you kick out the VGA DAC, why not10:22
wolfspraulthat saves 5-6 USD I think, lemme check...10:22
wolfspraulnot even that. 3.55 USD it saves.10:22
wolfspraulbut you leave the video-in adv7181, a chip that costs 12 USD10:23
wolfspraulcan the functionality of the adv7181 be implemented cheaper?10:23
wolfspraulwhy insist on analog video-in, why not digital video-in?10:23
lekernela lot more work10:23
wolfspraulyes :-)10:24
wolfspraulbut you said 'low cost'10:24
wolfspraulso how important is low cost now?10:24
wolfspraulwhat pricepoint is the one we *have to* reach?10:24
wolfspraulthe answer is: we don't know10:24
wolfspraulyou just try "as low as possible"10:24
wolfspraulbut you stop when it's "too much work"10:24
wolfspraulI cannot see the wisdom in this.10:24
wolfspraultoo much or too little work normally doesn't matter. the question is which work is profitable.10:25
wolfspraulbut that we cannot answer10:25
wolfspraulso we kick out the 3.55 USD vga dac, just because? why not?10:25
wolfspraulbut we leave the 12 USD video-in adc because it's too much work to replace it10:25
lekernelsounds logical10:26
wolfspraulyou could make similar arguments around the 10.50 usd nor, it's just not clear whether it's worth for us to replace it or not10:26
wolfspraulbecause we have no volume forecast, no price testing10:26
lekernelsure, but replacing it with serial flash is a lot less work than HDMI input10:26
wolfspraulmy argument is that some of those decisions look random10:26
lekernelno, they're all about trying to make a cheap M1 spinoff without taking months or years10:27
wolfspraulis the artix-7 even available yet?10:34
wolfspraulwe achieve your goal with a pcba only of the current m110:34
lekernelok. now when and how do we announce it?10:35
wolfspraulask bearstech. I can make boards in the rc4 run, bearstech needs to sell them.10:37
wolfspraulbtw, is artix-7 available or not?10:37
wolfspraulyou are making all sorts of arguments and avoid questions :-) probably the ones that wouldn't fit in your theory :-)10:37
wolfspraullet's see what octopart says10:38
lekernelwhich questions did I avoid exactly? a7 availability? I don't know we have to ask Xilinx, and in either case it's a trivial replacement from s610:38
lekernelto reduce FPGA cost, there could also be the option of using the 6slx2510:38
wolfspraulI said "decisions look random"10:39
lekernel<wolfspraul> my argument is that some of those decisions look random10:39
lekernel<lekernel> no, they're all about trying to make a cheap M1 spinoff without taking months or years10:39
wolfspraulto which you said "they are all about trying to make a cheap m1 spinoff without taking months or years"10:39
wolfspraulthat made me scratch my head about a-7 :-)10:40
wolfspraullet's take the bearstech route. I think they mentioned bare pcba already10:42
lekernelFWIW the s6 wasn't more available than the a7 is now when I started the M1 schematics (that was in sep2009, you weren't there by then). I trust Xilinx will deliver them.10:42
wolfspraulto which I replied positively in my last mail, but then haven't heard back in weeks10:43
wolfspraulof course10:43
wolfspraulbut you said "without taking months or years"10:43
wolfspraulthen your new board starts with an a-710:43
wolfspraulI must be allowed to point out the inconsistency.10:43
lekernelyes, as a potential alternative to s610:43
wolfspraulI think the a-7 selection pretty much makes sure that this will take at least 6 months, if not 1 year.10:43
wolfspraulI will reply to the same bearstech mail again10:44
wolfspraulyou were cc'ed10:44
wolfspraulthey asked, I replied10:44
wolfspraulso this idea is not new and already moving10:44
lekernelso? in this case we can try to fit the design in a 6slx25. as I said the a-7 upgrade is TRIVIAL.10:45
lekernelit doesn't matter much to start a new design with a7 or s610:45
wolfspraulI would never touch the fpga size for a bom difference of 5 or 10 usd. this pretty much guarantees frustration later on (months or years later), when people find out they have one or the other chip.10:50
wolfspraulyou must be really sure that this bom difference is worth the frustration later on10:50
wolfspraulit's not about going up or down, but since you have one size now, moving away from that size is risky for your developer community10:50
wolfspraulit will cause trouble and frustration later10:51
wolfspraulthat's just a general comment10:51
wolfspraulif you feel the bigger size is *never* needed, then sure let's go for it10:51
wolfspraulalso on the main m1 then :-) it's an optimization!10:51
wolfspraulotherwise why not increase the one on m1 to slx75? it becomes guesswork.10:52
wolfspraulI would not touch the size, unless you clearly now know, more than "5 usd bom diff".10:52
wolfspraultypo: unless you clearly know why10:52
wolfspraulwe need to know the exact target of this board better10:53
wolfspraulI will reply to bearstech, they already asked!10:53
lekernelend of this discussion; I give up10:53
lekernelwe go with the raw PCBAs10:54
wolfsprauldo you remember bearstech asking?10:54
lekernelyes I do10:54
wolfspraulthis was/is already moving10:54
wolfspraulrelax. your ideas are good, don't misunderstand me. I'm just thinking through the various choices and try to understand them.10:55
wolfspraulI believe in low-cost, I will manfacture and sell stuff at cost, even subsidized (as long as I can afford that :-))10:55
lekerneland btw, the slx45 choice was also what you would call "guesswork", which wasn't too bad in the end as the damn thing worked10:56
wolfspraulof course10:59
wolfspraulbut now that we have it, there are considerations of developer confusion if you change10:59
wolfspraulthat's just how it is10:59
wolfspraulyou try to grow the Milkymist community, I'm sure. not make sure the ones you have leave out of frustration :-)11:00
wolfspraulI think we should focus on the M1 product, make that the absolute best product. the rest will sort itself out.11:00
wolfspraulI owe you more marketing work, so let's see11:01
wolfspraulme and Jon are full power motivated and active on this11:01
lekernelthe rest will sort itself out? hum, well. given how the slightest bit of vaporware from the right people makes so much fuss compared to whatever I can do, I'm really starting to doubt it unfortunately11:02
wpwrak... 2016 ... and click ... 2017 ... and click ...11:07
wpwrak(PR) except for Make, they're all IT-centric. perhaps not the favourite hangout for VJs. but .. i also think that M1 isn't quite consumer-ready yet. still too many loose ends.11:11
wpwrakalso elektor is quite niche11:11
wpwrak(phew .. so much stuff to catch up with. can't you guys be a little less chatty while i sleep some 3 hours ? :)11:12
wpwrak(simon) btw, who is that ? i see that name mentioned a lot.11:13
wpwrak(artix-7) wolfspraul, have you learned nothing at openmoko ? :) using a brand-new chip like this is not just shooting your own foot, but first poisoning it, hacking it off, putting it through a meat grinder, burning it, and throwing the ashes into a nuclear reactor11:18
lekernels6 was equally new at the beginning of M1. anyway, this conversation is over.11:19
lekernelSimon is the guy behind mslpro.co.uk11:19
kristianpaulbut at least with s6 we're devkit already isnt? you played a lot with that ml410 boar i guess11:20
kristianpaulthat was in the same 2009?11:20
wpwrak(a7) ah, i see that it's already been killed. good ;-)11:20
wpwrakby the way, there are many other ways to get M1 to poor developers, one of them being discounts or even freebies. wolfgang doesn't like freebies and i can understand his reasoning. but then, creating a new project which will costs thousands of dollars just in external costs, plus tens of thousands in work hours (even if only virtual), just to create an object you can sell a few hundred dollars cheaper simply doesn't make sense11:24
wpwrakso to get the real price calculation, you would have to consider just how much it costs to do the new thing. plus, what you could do to improve M1 at the same time / with the same resources.11:25
wpwrak(checking mslpro ...)11:25
kristianpauli hope from xilinx a cheap version of dev board just like that LX9 but this time for -7 family :)11:30
wpwraklekernel: and speaking of motivation, nothing is more demotivating than when the lead developer of a project is abandoning it. you're picking a very bad moment for your frustrations. you have to do a lot of cheerleading in the open source world. people come to active, exciting projects. projects that make it easy for them to get involved. make some small contribution, see how it goes. maybe try something bigger afterwards. grow the invol11:30
wpwrakvement over time.11:30
wpwrakif the project is kinda dead, a lot will feel intimidated. there are a lot more people willing to do small things and to help and follow than people who are willing to lead.11:31
kristianpauland i would consider wait that devkit from xilinx before others not xilinx trying to do it so (therically speaking they do)11:31
wpwrakalso, those few who are walking around, looking for projects to take over tend to be the not so nice folk11:32
wpwrakkristianpaul: using a barely announced complex chip for a key function is extremely dangerous. if you have absolutely no other choice, fine. then you organize your project around the chip. if there are bugs, you spend whatever resources you need to work around them. if you can't work around them, you wait for the next silicon revision. etc.11:34
wpwrakkristianpaul: if you run out of resources before the chip is stable or your market has since moved elsewhere, your project dies because of the chip. it's a bad risk to take. i've seen projects run into great turmoil because of immature chips.11:35
kristianpaulsure i understand the dangerous part, thats my point of let xilinx/avnet produce cheap devel boards ;-)11:39
kristianpauli hope they will as lekernel hope the a7 will be cheaper that s6 :)11:39
lekernelI'm not abandoning it, I'm just pointing out we have a severe publicity problem11:39
lekernelin fact I'll probably start doing those things - image support, USB/MIDI and fixing the lag bug - in about two weeks11:40
wpwrakmy experience with M1, which is very little, because my M1 spends most of its time power-cycling, but still, suggests that it's excessively hard to actually make it do something great. not just boring "demo mode", but something where you experience the real power. the difficulty has a number of reasons. some are easy to fix (e.g., documentation), some harder (e.g., more understandable workflow), some very hard (peripherals)11:41
kristianpaulwhat about recducing learning curve a bit for the already M1 we have, i mean some more tips about milkdrop/FB etc... you are the experienced  :)11:42
wpwrakso in its present state, i would consider M1 more like an advanced proof of concept than something i'd feel comfortable throwing at users. developers are a different case. they're used to things not working and being weird11:42
wpwrakbut the barrier of entry for developers is also very steep. not only from the technical side, but also from the motivation side. there is a chicken and egg problem there. if you already have a vibrant developer community, more will come. if you don't, it's a very hard sell, no matter how cool it is.11:44
wpwrakalso, many developers will not feel the need to improve M1. their personal itch will be something else. you can try to get developers via the "toy" angle, but also this isn't easy. and your cost structure doesn't give you a lot of room there.11:46
wpwraklekernel: (usb, bug fixing) wonderful !!!! :)11:46
wpwrakkristianpaul: i think support kinda works for reducing the learning curve. if i pester lekernel for about half a week with questions and spend the time he's away/sleeping searching the clues elsewhere (source, web, depends on the issue), then i can figure out what i need to know :)11:48
wpwraklatest example, the controller :)11:48
wpwrakalso, often, at the end of such a journey, i'm a little scared. because i may find/realize things that others should have brought up. if they haven't, that means that gave up much earlier.11:50
wpwrakthe risk here is that people may simply misunderstand what the M1 can do. either because they started with low expectations or because they lowered their expectations because they didn't see a way forward.11:51
wpwrakand of course, if this happens even before a potential purchase decision, there goes another customer11:51
kristianpaulwpwrak: oh sure, i just taling about a single poing of information, but not all people do that, well i hope they do all think that way..11:51
kristianpaulway forward, yes11:51
kristianpaulnot all people join irc to concact main developer..11:52
kristianpaulalso i wonder you have to tell (first was milkdrop history) to very one.. instead just start over with milkymist11:53
wpwraklekernel: the people buying M1 today are basically the avantgarde of the avantgarde, maybe personal friends of some of the protagonists, and a few crazy folks with a loose hand on the wallet11:53
rohyou guys think too much about details totally nonscientific11:55
kristianpaulok back to event, i'll try talk with more people about M1 today :)11:55
kristianpaulyes roh :)11:55
rohif you ask me... people are not scientific or deterministic. they are weird, unlogical, pathological, extreme.. but never something to 'expect'11:55
wpwrakroh: did you skip your autism pills again ? ;-)11:57
wolfspraullekernel: had another thought about 'publicity'12:00
wolfspraulyou had the slashdot article12:00
wolfspraulit pointed to milkymist.org I believe12:00
wolfspraulwhat conversion rates did you see?12:00
wolfspraulhow many people subscribed to the mailing list?12:00
wolfspraulhow many people followed the milkymistvj twitter account?12:00
wolfspraulhow much time did those visitors spend on milkymist.org?12:01
lekernelone, and about 10 on twitter12:01
lekernelthat's little :(12:01
wolfspraulI'm asking because I think those numbers will all be pretty bad12:01
wolfspraulI for sure had zero sales12:01
wolfspraulyou should think about that12:01
wolfspraulyou are basically asking the world to send more people to you12:01
wolfspraulif 10k are not enough, then they should send 100k to you, or 1 million12:01
wolfspraulso that you have another 50 twitter followers?12:01
wolfspraulwe have to work on our side, the conversion rate12:02
wolfspraulthe story is unattractive12:02
wolfsprauleven ads would most likely just be wasted money right now12:02
wolfspraulthe tech is good now12:02
wolfspraulwe can focus on the story now12:02
lekernelwe only had 2.7k from slashdot this time12:02
wolfspraulthat conversion rate should give you something to think about12:02
wolfspraulI think the article was the least commented on that day12:02
wolfspraulprobably also the least read12:03
wolfspraulit goes down with every click :-)12:03
wolfspraulso in the 10 you add 10 twitter followed from a slashdot article!12:03
wolfspraulsorry, typo "in the end"12:03
lekernelyes, that's pretty bad too12:03
wolfspraulif the story would be attractive, you might expect 1000 twitter followers, or more12:03
wolfspraulI'm *not* pointing fingers at you12:03
wolfspraulit's really just to think12:03
wolfspraulI need to work better too12:03
lekernelno but I'm just saying it's bad, without pointing fingers to anyone12:04
wolfspraulok good12:04
wolfspraulI agree with you12:04
wolfspraulthe media coverage so far is not bad imho12:04
wolfspraulour conversion rate sucks12:04
wolfspraulmaybe that's a hint that the story/message is unattractive12:04
wolfspraulwe can ask for more media coverage now, or work on it. or we work on a better conversion rate first, or in parallel.12:04
wolfspraulit was just a thought I had...12:05
wolfspraulbecause sometimes it seems you demand from others to send interested viewers your way :-)12:05
wolfspraulbut maybe just very very few people are interested in what we have right now, no matter how 'big' the coverage would be12:05
rohwpwrak: naaah. i dont take no pills (luckily)12:05
wolfspraulI don't think it's the technology12:05
wolfspraulthe tech is very unique and inspiring etc. and works today.12:05
rohwpwrak: i am just saying that instead of bickering about theories about humans and buying behaviour we should rather make the product better than add details to theoretical foobar12:06
rohthere are 2 kinds of people. one buy because stuff is nice/they believe12:07
lekernelroh, I believe one of the most important things is to go through this 'bickering'. we (or at least I) have been doing that for 4 years already; meanwhile, people like the makers of this SoC breakout board immediately get popular without shipping a single device.12:07
rohthe seconds are people who buy because the device fulfulls a list of technical requirements which helps the person solve a problem (rational buy) ... both are important. the latter works by doing good products.12:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: the technology also is a bit of a problem, mainly in terms of size of the feature set. but prospective customers may not be aware of that until later.12:08
wolfspraullekernel: you are envious at a story? come on12:09
wolfspraulnext time Paris Hilton is everywhere for a new hairstyle, will you be envious at her?12:10
wolfspraulwe know nothing about raspberry12:10
rohlekernel: my experience doestn help you there. it says: if you want to be famous, do something really simple really different and loud.12:10
wolfspraullet them do their work12:10
rohyour product is not simple. its really cool complicated voodoo tech (fpga stuff) as seen from normal people.12:10
rohso its not fame.. its awe you get.. sorry.12:10
wolfspraulI would agree with roh.12:10
wolfspraulParis Hilton started with a sex tape, right? can it be any simpler? :-)12:11
wolfsprauland so did Hugh Grant if I remember correctly12:11
wolfspraula blowjob12:11
wolfspraulthe Milkymist story right now is too difficult12:11
wolfspraulit's like "we change the world, come watch us"12:11
wolfspraulwhat do you expect people to do?12:12
wolfspraulthey say "ok I come back a few years later and see what's going on"12:12
rohwolfspraul: ack. thats why i say 'ignore the noise, do cool tech' :)12:12
wolfspraulcan we break Milkymist down to ONE thing?12:12
wolfspraulroh: also agree, and luckily I do that, so I like the M1 and the part I play in it, because I don't try to chase things I cannot influence.12:12
rohno. maybe 'foss computing'12:12
wolfspraulwpwrak: fully agree on a-7 and controllers12:13
rohbut thats not popular.. thats geeks with thick glasses fame12:13
rohor RMS-spooksy12:13
wolfsprauldon't worry about the controllers, you are just the most talkative of the ones that are very clearly aware of this angle12:13
wpwrakso where's that tweet "man ! i did a show with M1 last night. the chicks went crazy. took home 5 of them." ? i think you'd have lines in front of the M1 shop right the next day ;-)12:13
rohbbl.. riding to my batcave12:14
wpwrakthinking of it ... i actually wonder what the social prestige and self-image of VJs is. the DJ is pretty much a classical hero. is the VJ an equal ? a lesser DJ ? something else ?12:15
wolfspraulvery good observation12:15
wolfspraullet me just quote Jon, he he12:15
wolfspraulthe VJ is a pussy12:15
wolfspraulsound makes people turn heads12:16
wolfspraulthat's Jon, ok. not me.12:16
wolfspraulalso "speakers get the girls naked"12:16
wolfsprauland I saw first hand some pretty attractive girls embracing a 3m high speaker pole as if it were a giant dildo12:16
wpwrakthat's actually pretty much what i thought, too :) a VJ usually seems to be a bit of a sidekick.12:17
wolfspraulwhile the speakers were on full power, of course12:17
wpwrakdrunk/drugged girls are fun :)12:17
wpwrakso .. maybe the real question should be: "how does M1 get the VJ more respect" ?12:18
wolfspraulI like how one guy understood m1 after some demos etc. in saying it gives access to "the lowest levels of visuals" (he was implying the programmability down into the fpga)12:18
wolfspraulnah, I think that's a loosing battle12:18
wpwrakone step may already be to get away from the nerd-with-laptop cliche12:18
wolfspraulif we had a combination with a really cool controller, like that faderfox one, maybe it could already be enough for a complete replacement12:19
wpwrakput up some instruments, too. have a panel like the DJ has. 500 knobs. each of them doing something deep, meaningful. and only the wizard at the controls knows how to work that magic.12:19
wolfspraulbut then people will ask for the well-known stuff - pics, video clips, usb sticks, etc. etc.12:19
wolfspraulwell it needs to be meaningful12:20
wolfspraulthe DJ is actually playing12:20
wolfspraulI'm still learning what the exact 'performance' of the VJ is, aside from having a cool set of tech gadgets12:20
wpwraki think the faderfox would be great to get the message across. it may not be show-offy enough, but it would make the VJ realize that it's deeper than just three buttons.12:20
wpwrakon the occasions where i noticed a VJ, the work environment didn't look all too different from that of a traveling hacker. laptop, eyes fixed on the screen, pecking at some keys.12:22
wpwrakand yes, those well-known features need to have a place, too. they're basically assumed as a given. so if you don't have them, people will either be very unhappy (if they've already bought one) or dismiss your product as flawed/unusable (if they haven't)12:24
wpwrakone thing i don't understand yet is patch writing. haven't even tried my hands on it. the existing patches look very intimidating. weird, complex formulas. not only with tricky functions but also an almost obfuscating syntax12:27
wpwraki also like those visikord videos very much. imagine an egocam for the VJ, with M1 letting him throw fire. how's that for an attention-getter ? :)12:28
lekernelwpwrak, look at for example "Lekernel - Musique de telephone"12:28
lekernelit is very simple and still features many of the main options12:29
lekernelyou can try commenting out lines one by one, and see what they do. also, check out the milkdrop guides.12:29
wpwrakyes, this one is pretty tidy. needs comments, but besides that, it's not too scary.12:30
lekernelthe messy patches are actually those from or based on milkdrop12:31
lekernelthey can generally be cut by 80-90%12:31
wpwrakyeah, lots of nasties there :)12:31
wpwrakhehe :)12:31
wpwrakwhat could be removed ? are there redundant calculations ? inefficient ways of calculating a value ? or just unnecessary variables ?12:33
lekernelmostly unnecessary variables, and a bit of the others12:34
wolfspraulmaybe we should have a big feature comparison table that compares m1 features with the 4 major vj solutions quartz composer, resolume, modul8, vvvv12:36
wolfsprauleven if M1 would have a 'no' on a lot of features those other ones have, it would give a lot of VJs a quick entry point and confidence into the M1 world12:37
rejonyes, totally great12:37
wpwrak(unnecessary variables) for temporary results ? or just for dead ends, things that are never used ?12:38
lekernelyes, good idea12:39
wpwrakmaybe marketing should emphasize the aspect of putting the VJ into the picture12:39
lekernelwpwrak, depends. those milkdrop presets are often written by non-programmers, so you can expect all sorts of things there12:40
lekernelwolfspraul, even in brochure v5 maybe12:41
wpwrak(patches) okay. needs some vetting then :)12:41
rohhm. how was this dj-mixer-midi-controller named again? the 'foss one' with the pic inside13:06
rohi wonder if it would help 'making some' to gain marketing momentum13:06
rohnope.. something with A13:14
rohhttp://www.auroramixer.com/ that one13:15
wpwraki think we've come a long way today. from M1 as a soulless machine owned by The Man that replaces the VJ, to a professional tool enhancing the standing of the VJ, and improving his/her love life.13:41
wpwrakkinda all the way from early industrialization to aircraft pilots a few decades ago13:42
wpwraki think this also makes the weak response so far more understandable. for most developers, it simply doesn't fit anywhere. if they're FPGA fans, they have plenty of cheap eval boards to choose from. if they want the peripherals, chances are their PC already supports them. and for the VJs, it's even worse. the current marketing message basically suggests that they're either useless or lazy. not a nice way to approach your customers. well,13:50
wpwrak outside the S&M sector :)13:50
wpwrakand for the club owners, it's a muddled message at best13:53
wpwrakDJTachyon: we have a weekly event called "160+" here in town. madly fast drum and bass. i think a faster-than-light DJ ought to like that ;-)14:28
DJTachyonin which town?14:29
wpwrakbuenos aires14:30
DJTachyonwpwrak: on my way! :P14:32
Action: DJTachyon <3 DnB14:36
wpwrakDJTachyon: by the way, do you have an M1 yet ? i'm curious about real-life use "stories"14:50
DJTachyonnah i havent had time to even get one.  I'm working 12 hour days and am running around in circles14:50
wpwrakhmm, faster than light -> the more you run around, the more time you save ;)15:05
kristianpaulokay today was better, a guy told he hate convertting video from here to there and want some dedicated device for video sinthesis17:30
kristianpauli give him a milkymist sticker of course :)17:31
kristianpaulalso he mentioned dont like all that wires from here to there (from his previous work)17:31
kristianpauli also heard that from lekernel :)17:32
kristianpauland i demoed ()basically let the keybaord with M1 run for some time17:32
kristianpaulpeople ask for price, i heard no complains17:32
kristianpaulremenber this in an art* *lab event, i'm theless artistic here, so critics where not that bad i think17:33
kristianpauland yes i was asked again for include video clips on the M1..17:33
wpwrakkristianpaul: i think for an stage/studio instrument, M1 pricing is very friendly. it's basically in the range of a mid-range MIDI controller. something like this critter: http://www.cme-pro.com/products-list/product-Bitstream3X.html17:46
wpwrakor this one, a bit cheaper, but the function is easier to guess: http://www.novationmusic.com/products/midi_controllers/zero_sl_mk_ii/17:47
wpwrakthat's basically a bunch of buttons, potentiometers, rotary encoders, and slider, plus an MCU that sends all this to MIDI. that's it. no audio or video processing.17:49
wpwrakone thing M1 lacks in comparison to these devices is ruggedness. e.g., a metal case or part metal part plastic would put it on par. a M1 "heavy duty" should probably also re-arrange the connectors a bit. having things come out on all four sides is a bit messy. but all those are details for future improvements. i don't think anyone would reject it just because it's fragile. they may complain, though :)17:55
wpwrakkristianpaul: how much longer is this event ?17:56
antgreendo you guys have a fully open source tools for programming your board?18:26
antgreenI'm currently using an Altera kit and have to use their jtag tools, and run a proprietary daemon (jtagd).18:27
antgreenI'd rather not.18:27
wpwrakone word: urjtag !18:43
wpwraknot sure what is needed to make it work with altera, though. maybe nothing, maybe a lot of hacking. i think mwalle would be the expert on such porting/adaptation issues.18:45
qi-botThe Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-10282011-1910/19:00
antgreenwpwrak: thanks for the pointer19:29
mwalleantgreen: the altera usb jtag pod should work out of the box20:08
mwalleantgreen: at first you could try to play a svf file20:09
kristianpaulwpwrak: it ended today, actually i just arrived home21:59
wpwrakah, a professional event then. no working on weekends :)22:00
wpwrakseems that people understood M1 pretty well22:03
kristianpaulwpwrak: comunlab.cc22:05
lekernelkristianpaul, thanks for the demo. how did it go?22:16
kristianpaullekernel: genreally went ok23:24
kristianpaulpeople always got a good first impresion of M1 in action23:24
kristianpaulthey point how smoths it behaves etc..23:25
kristianpaulhe, i got in troubles for a minute, i got that misterrious bug with a led dim !!23:25
kristianpauli just power it off correctly btw !!23:25
kristianpauli knew it was going to happen, but when i less espected, boom ;)23:26
kristianpaulafortunayly after a power cut and wait 1 minute (and keep talking in the meanwhile) all went back nice23:26
wolfspraulwe can sell M1 as a blood pressure training device23:27
kristianpauli was demoing the M1 to guy i told you, was interesting i a dedicated devices for video sinthesis23:27
kristianpaulhe seemed experienced a lot with different software for mac,23:27
wolfspraulwhich software?23:28
kristianpaulbut also tired of format convertions and eventual hangs, plus espensive lincesens23:28
kristianpauldamn i dont remneber23:28
wolfspraulyes I think we need to take that stuff head on23:28
kristianpaulhe came with a list of 6, i just said yes yes, of course :)23:28
wolfspraulcan you email him? maybe we can find out more (it's not a big deal though)23:28
wolfspraulkristianpaul: when we have the dvi-i board we make you an upgrade offer you cannot refuse :-)23:29
wolfspraulthank you so much for your continued support and everything! I hope you enjoy...23:29
kristianpaulnope i dont take its mail, was a really short time, he just heard i bring a box for video processing and free/open and then ask me for a demo23:30
kristianpauli gave him a sticker  :-)23:30
wolfspraulok sure, no problem23:30
wolfspraulgood [sticker]23:30
wolfspraulI hope you get the new stickers & brochures too, they should be on the way.23:30
kristianpaulsure i enjoied a lot when the M1 booted again :_D23:30
wolfspraulyes I can imagine :-)23:30
kristianpaulsure, as soon i got i can mail (postal) some people we're interested and i have its adresses23:31
kristianpaulso that poweroff dont work!!23:31
kristianpauli did that all the event, in every demostration23:32
kristianpauljust to avoid chaos, but seems not make difference at all23:32
wolfspraulsorry cannot follow now23:32
wolfspraul"poweroff don't work"?23:33
kristianpauli mean23:33
kristianpauls/dont work/dont help with led situation23:33
kristianpaulled dim**23:33
kristianpauli remenber lekernel pointed that23:33
kristianpaulso i took it fron granted (why not?) that i may take out of problems23:34
wolfspraulyou have an rc2 board. since then we made a number of improvements in that area.23:34
kristianpaulah yes i cant compare with rc3 indeed23:34
wolfspraulimo power-off is in no way proven to help with the well-known rc2 booting issues23:34
wolfspraulpower-off *may* help with the remaining rc3 nor corruption, but I don't think Werner tries to verify that, he just tries to fix the underlying root cause23:35
kristianpaulsure sure23:35
wolfspraulyou just have to live with the thrill for now23:36
wpwraki actually tried to verify this as well, but then the corruption suddenly had vanished. in retrospective, i think i had one of those accidental block 0 locks back then.23:37
wolfspraulit will make you feel closer to your m1 :-)23:37
wpwrakso the result is inconclusive. if the locking incident happened before the test, the test was meaningless. if it happened afterwards. e.g., in the final sanity check, then the test did show that a "clean" shutdown helped.23:38
wpwrakif you analyze my statement carefully, you can conclude that the information content is exactly 0 bits ;-)23:38
kristianpaulsure i live with it at home, and hope no with next demo next week  in pasto :-)23:39
kristianpauli'll convicen the organizators use M1 always for the identi.ca updates, i hope people will like that23:39
kristianpaulmost floss related people23:39
kristianpaulwill assist23:40
wpwrak(dim led and recovery by just power cycling) interesting. i didn't have that yet :)23:41
wolfspraulhe has an rc223:41
wolfspraulthat is the old "cannot boot" problem, several layers before the nor corruption we have left now23:42
wpwrakoh, i see23:43
kristianpaulyeah it used to happen23:43
wolfspraulI think most people who have an rc2 and use it regularly will be familiar with it :-)23:43
kristianpaulthats why i _never_ power off my M1 :-)23:43
kristianpaulproblem sovlec ;)23:43
wolfspraulthese bugs make me just want to accelerate and fix bugs faster. I think we can take M1 to much higher robustness levels still.23:46
wolfspraulyield or manufacturing related, esd, temperature cycles, what not. the advantage of a solid platform you use for a few years is that you can balance it out really well.23:47
kristianpauland yes, forgot, people seems dont like only video out is VGA23:47
kristianpaulsome people**23:47
wolfspraulwhat do they expect?23:48
kristianpaulmore video outs23:48
wolfspraulyou mean multiple? or other connectors?23:48
kristianpaulhum, i dint clarify up to that i guess was more that same video out in different connectors23:49
wolfspraulone thing to keep in mind with feedback like "if it has xyz I will buy it" is that it may also just mean that they haven't understood the core essence of the product yet23:49
wolfspraulbasically we have to qualify that23:49
kristianpaulsure sure23:49
wolfspraulthey are new, they see the product for the first time, start thinking about it23:49
kristianpauland want want want, sure i got that part23:50
wolfspraulthen it's normal, you say "how about xyz?" "how about this?" "how about that?"23:50
wolfsprauldoes it have 3G?23:50
wolfspraulno no, that's all good23:50
wolfspraulthey think, they ask23:50
wolfspraulwe cannot take that stuff literally. we cannot add feature after feature because 1 person says "if it has that I will buy it"23:50
kristianpaulha, a guy tought i could connect his USB Display (very cool btw) to the M123:50
wolfspraulnow. The longer someone actually uses m1, the more meaningful/valuable such feedback becomes.23:50
wolfspraulif a VJ has used M1 for a year, and he says "I often run into cases where I have to have a xxx connector"23:51
kristianpauli have to said, no is no posible no all free sofware runs linux ;-)23:51
wolfspraulwow, that's different!23:51
wolfspraulsee the difference?23:51
wolfspraulI am not dismissing the feedback, just trying to build action items on it.23:51
wolfspraulso we can add them to a list of "initial reactions"23:52
kristianpaulsure :)23:52
kristianpauli like enjoy all of then23:52
wolfsprauland then we can think about why we get that reaction, and how we tell the story better so their minds faster focus on the core essence of what *we* believe is great23:52
wolfsprauland we know the vga-only 640x480 is not great23:52
wolfspraulbut we think it's not the core :-)23:52
wolfspraulit's about making people understand why m1 is cool23:52
kristianpaulwe know, but people dont care somethimes23:53
kristianpaulwell at frist glance23:53
wolfspraulwhich of course is not because of its spectactular high-res digital video out23:53
wolfspraulno, that's all fine23:53
wolfspraulI am just explaining what I would do next23:53
wolfspraul1. give the chances to keep thinking and keep giving more feedback23:53
wolfspraulinvite to this channel23:53
wolfspraulask them to follow #milkymistvj on twitter23:53
wolfspraulgive them a sticker or brochure23:54
kristianpauli invite to milkymist.org23:54
wolfspraul2. carefully point them away from the tech-spec that they found and towards what we believe makes m1 unique and valuable23:54
kristianpaulmay be lekernel can add a easy to join chat channerl (aka irc) ;-) ?23:54
kristianpaulin the M1 webpage i mean23:54
wolfspraul3. invite them to buy an m1 and use it for a while, the best and fastest way to understand something that is as new and different as the M123:55
wolfspraulthat's about it, I think23:55
kristianpaulsure people asked for prices several times23:55
kristianpauli told and focused saying, is a product that works, no just some free sofyware without support ;)23:56
kristianpauli also mentioned what's included in the box of course23:56
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