#milkymist IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-10-26

wpwrakhmm, i wonder if M1, when connected with a USB-to-MIDI cable to a Linux PC, can talk to a USB-MIDI controller00:43
kristianpaulwpwrak: i hope yes, MIDI is actually an uart core re-used to work at 3125001:23
wpwrakheh :)01:27
wpwraki basically wonder if there's anything in the protocol that would prevent the pc from picking up MIDI messages from the USB-MIDI-only controller and forwarding them to the M101:28
xiangfuwpwrak, I think there is a progream called jack(Qjackctl) can do that.01:29
xiangfuwpwrak, it can connect two physical midi(both have to connect to PC :) , or connect a virtual midi to physical midi01:30
wpwrakah, evil jack strikes again :) okay, if it's possible, there must be a decent way to do it then :)01:30
wpwraksounds perfect. thanks !01:30
wpwrakoh, and i even have it installed :)01:31
xiangfuwpwrak, you may also like 'VMPK'01:31
wpwrakyeah, i know that one01:31
xiangfuI have use VMPK with m1.01:32
wpwrakbut i'm looking for real controls, with shifters and knobs01:32
xiangfuwhen there is a MIDI message from m1 to my PC. the VMPK keys pressed (react)01:32
xiangfuwpwrak, oh.01:32
wpwrakthe korg nanoKONTROL2 doesn't look to bad. lots of controls. mechanical quality apparently isn't great, but it's unbeatably cheap01:34
kristianpaulxiangfu: what's the way to get the last stable "image" for M1 ?01:35
xiangfukristianpaul, reflash_m1.sh --release :)01:35
xiangfudownloads it from01:35
kristianpaulah easy :)01:36
kristianpaulwhy i remenber longs procedures when early rc3 run ..01:37
wpwrakactually, when i did just --release, it had problems. when i added the date, it worked, though. maybe i had an incomplete cache and it didn't notice, or such01:38
wpwrak(or maybe i should just update the script. i still use the version with the bad locking :)01:38
wolfspraulkristianpaul: in the future, you will just have to look at your m1 and *think* U P D A T E (think slowly a bit), then it will understand you and update itself.01:39
wolfspraulwe are working on this groundbreaking technology leap01:39
kristianpaulmorning wolfspraul :-)01:40
wolfspraulin the secret Qi labs though01:40
wolfspraullots of access control, retina checks, etc.01:40
kristianpaulwho needs that?01:41
wpwraknobody will01:43
wpwrakbecause the version after will anticipate the wish and update itself even before you think of it :)01:43
wpwrakno we know why wolfgang is often so silent lately. it now takes him a lot of time to go to work. first the security checks and then the endless elevator ride to the deep subterranean bunker01:45
wpwrakhmm, i wonder how many analog controls (shifters, knobs) would be useful. certainly video brightness, audio sensitivity, but what else ? sensitivity per frequency band ? maybe some decay functions ? effect color/speed/... ? other parameters ?01:52
aw(19pcs to be fixed) back to fix rc3 remaining boards again, all others are packed done02:48
xiangfuaw, cool02:50
awi roughly classify them into: 1) midi - 0x46, 0x7d  2) nor - 0x55, 0x67, 0x6d, 0x6f, 0x77 3) short - 0x31, 0x57, 0x59, 0x5d, 0x62, 0x74 4) no bootup - 0x32, 0x36, 0x70 5) video i2c - 0x4d 6) vga - 0x44 7) dimly lit 0x3a02:51
wolfspraulhow many are 100% good by now?02:53
wolfspraulif 19 to be fixed, that means the other 71 are all good?02:53
awyes, 71 pcs are all good02:54
wolfspraulwe shipped out about 40 or so by now, so currently have about 30 in stock02:54
wolfspraulstock = ready to be sold02:54
wpwrakhow is the sell rate evolving ?02:55
wolfspraulhow about the second rc2 unit we bought back?02:55
wolfspraulyou are impatient :-)02:55
awthey(remaining boards) are probably weird to fix, but it's good to discover them again to dig into.02:55
wolfspraulthere is no rush or flood of orders, it's more a matter of finding them one by one02:55
wolfsprauloh I think some of those 19 should definitely come out good in the end, no?02:56
awthat second rc2 I didn't include it.02:56
wolfspraulof course have to start to work on them one by one02:56
wpwrak(no rush) naw, what i mean is what the current tendency looks like. if there's a tendency :)02:56
wolfspraulI think the goal now is to group those 19 boards into three categories:02:56
wolfspraulCATEGORY 1: make 100% good boards ready to sell02:57
wolfspraulCATEGORY 2: learn something from a board for rc4, to improve yield in rc402:57
wpwrakbtw, for marketing, one possibility would be to partner with companies that make complementary elements. recommend them, say, for MIDI controllers. and they in turn list M1 has compatible. spread the word slowly :)02:58
wolfspraulCATEGORY 3: neither be able to sell, nor learn for rc4, but we just write off a board as 'victim of rc3 process, unknown reason'02:58
wpwrak(trouble boards) yeah, we still have those with freak NOR panic attacks :)02:58
awi do really want to find a tendency existed there especially on manufacturing side like footprint size or else like my reworks reasons caused by our previous approaches. :-)02:58
wolfspraulyes sure02:59
wolfspraulaw: did you see those 3 categories?02:59
wolfspraulI think in the end each board should fall into exactly one of them02:59
wolfspraul#1 sell #2 cannot sell but we learnt something for rc4 #3 cannot sell or learn, just victim of rc3 difficulties02:59
wolfspraulit would be great if #3 is as small as possible02:59
wolfspraulthat's the highest priority for me02:59
awmm...the most important is CATEGORY 303:00
wolfspraulideally it's empty03:00
wolfspraulif we have some boards in category 2, fine by me. learning is important, and we will see the rewards in rc403:00
wolfspraulif we can get some more into cat1, even better03:01
wolfspraulbut 71/90 now is not bad, considering how much we learnt with rc303:01
wolfspraulthe original goal was 80 :-)03:01
awwpwrak, about your latest email on NOR which is great. do you think the previous reworks from mine on NOR chip will damaged it?03:01
awalthough I've still not replaced any of them. ;-)03:02
wolfspraulaw: ok it seems we agree on priorities and next steps03:02
wolfspraulthen happy hacking, happy fixing, happy learning :-)03:02
kristianpaulhum what delay between middle button and my monitor to show something..i tought something went bad but seems not :)03:03
wolfspraulthis is good stuff you work on now, very important for Milkymist03:03
wolfspraulmaybe after another week or so we have more clarity about the 19 already03:03
wpwrak(NOR rework) you mean you're planning to replace NOR chips ? don't know how risky that it. in general, they're difficult but not impossible to solder. the main problem is that there are tall components around the chip, so it's sometimes difficult to get the soldering iron in03:03
wolfsprauladam can also group-collect some boards and have them all reworked at once at the smt fab03:04
wpwrak... and spend the next three weeks wondering what exactly they have done :)03:05
wpwraki.e., i think the number are too small for such exercises03:05
wpwrake.g., only very few will have NOR-related problems at all03:05
awyes, for smt fab. I can push them to take x-ray if I do really have no idea on group-collect boards later.03:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: (markting: partners) e.g., this guy seems to make nice MIDI controllers: http://www.faderfox.de/ low volume etc., but how product announcements make it even to news portals in argentina03:07
awwpwrak, yup..from your series emails on NOR, it should have very few NOR-related problems. I do hope they are related to the reasons from manufacturing processes caused. but surely don't know yet.03:07
wpwrakthose freak NOR problems may just be fried FPGAs. maybe ESD. maybe overheating.03:09
kristianpaulha rss wall is so cool, it just showed somethin from gbraad ;)03:11
wolfspraulcan we get picture support via rss somehow?03:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: e.g., this one may look sexy on the M1: http://www.faderfox.de/mark/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=165&Itemid=23903:12
wpwrak(alas, doesn't seem to be available around here)03:12
kristianpaulwho got what sebastien wrote in that unboxing video when creating a patch?..03:17
kristianpaulah rss wall should support multiples lines !03:20
Action: kristianpaul jfdi03:20
kristianpaulargh, second time i press that Go! button i cant stop it, is there a way?03:22
kristianpaulthat quick find in the patch editor is VERY wellcome btw :-)03:25
kristianpaul(patch editor), if i'm at the botton of the patch i cant go top if not with scroll it seems03:33
kristianpaulplan9 (acme) people will like this ;)03:33
kristianpaultomorrow finish slides ..03:37
kristianpauland i need a portabl osc client..03:37
kristianpaulwill be cool also send mesages to the wall using osc..03:41
kristianpauland load animated gif ;) and ... and....03:45
wpwrak3D videos ! ;-)03:48
johnnyhahlekernel,is there a open source tool like xilinx netgen?07:32
wpwraklekernel: imagine ... you're going for a walk at the beach ...08:08
wpwrak... there, you find a bottle that's been washed ashore. it's corked. curious, you pick it up and pull the stopper. a djinn emerges and, for freeing him, grants you three wishes.08:10
wpwrakof course, you immediately think of M1. and you ask the djinn for the perfect MIDI controller to go along with M1. what controls would this controller have ?08:11
lekernelwell, it would definitely make sense to have things like joysticks (to control the motion of the effect) and various faders/knobs08:41
lekernelplus buttons to switch patches08:41
wpwrakalso force-sensing buttons ? like the arrays, typically 4 x 4, on those drum controllers08:43
wpwrakjoysticks (X/Y) would be much better than sliders/knobs ? i.e., there are many settings that you really think of as two-dimensional ?08:44
wpwrakwould there be other things, besides switching patches, buttons could presently be used for ?08:47
lekernel2D: displacement, zoom/stretching, rotation center, ...08:48
wpwrakah, lots of joysticks !08:49
lekernelbuttons: also switching images (when we have them)08:49
wpwrakwould sliders be just passive or, besides coolness, would it add anything if they were motorized ?08:50
Last message repeated 1 time(s).09:08
lekernelpassive I'd say09:25
wpwrakseems that DMX controllers are closer to what you're describing than MIDI controllers. quite a lot of DMX controllers have a joystick, while only a few MIDI controller have X/Y input, mainly korg with their touch pads09:32
wpwraksomething like this would be close (mechanically), no ? http://acme.com.cn/en/DC_ProductDetails.aspx?Pid=43609:36
wpwrakalas, it's only MIDI IN, not out09:36
wpwrakhow many controls of each kind would the ideal controller have ? i guess 2 joysticks would be sufficient, since you'd run out of hands (of course, you still have two wishes from your djinn, so additional hands would be an option ...)09:40
wpwrakwould joysticks be the kind that stays in the last position or would they return to the middle position when you release them ?09:42
wpwraklekernel: can a DMX controller (using DMX) be used to manage patches ? i don't know DMX ... i see a lot of things about scene settings and such, so i'd imagine hitting a button on a controller would result in a lot of commands being sent to individual lights11:57
wpwrakbut maybe there is more individual control, too ?11:58
lekernelit's just a protocol that sends channel/value pairs11:58
lekernelI don't think there are many "button" controls11:58
wpwrak(button controls) you mean in patches ?11:59
wpwrakhere's a nice DMX controller: "However, to upload a fixture profile into Magic-260, you will need to purchase our proprietary USB Memory stick, model "USB MEM STICK", or our proprietary data link cable". apple would be so proud ;-)12:01
lekernelmaybe they just gave up on the pain of getting regular USB sticks to work12:05
wpwrakmaybe i can cut the chase short - what kind of controller did you choose ? and are you happy with it ?12:06
wpwrakso far, the only controller with more than one XY element i've been able to find is the faderfox LV3. that one has 2 joysticks. also looks very nice and compact. alas, USB-MIDI only. there's a predecessor that also has legacy MIDI, but only one joystick.12:10
lekernelit has noticeable response time12:12
wpwrakaah, so you're already using a DMX controller for input. and not MIDI. i see.12:14
wpwrakbtw, i'm surprised how inexpensive the DMX controllers are compared to MIDI. you seem to get a lot more sliders and buttons for your money with DMX than with MIDI. maybe it's because there are a number of "generic brands" eroding the prices. haven't seen any MIDI clones (at least not here)12:16
wpwrakah, and an I/O question: do you think the FPGA hardware would be able to implement high-speed USB ? or is that too fast ?12:22
wpwrak(controller) how many of the sliders do you normally use ? you probably have audio sensitivity, video brightness and/or contrast, zoom rate, maybe zoom center (1-2 slider), or rotation center (1-2 slider), anything else ?12:26
riaanvddoolhi, i was thinking that the input video channel could be used to influence the warp field12:39
riaanvddoolhas anyone done something like this?12:39
lekernelnope. this shouldn't be too hard to implement in flickernoise, though13:03
lekernelwhat's your experience with C programming?13:03
riaanvddoolits what i do for a living13:03
riaanvddoolwhat would be cool is if you move your hand on the video, it controls the warp13:04
lekernelso one possible solution would be to read the pixel at some coordinates in the video input and feed it through patch variables13:04
riaanvddooli dont have a dev kit yet though13:05
lekernelthen you can map it to warp using per_frame equations13:05
riaanvddooli have been foloowing the project for some time now, it is good to see how far it has come13:06
lekernelwpwrak, high speed USB should be doable, the S6 can switch I/Os at up to ~1GHz when you use a serdes. it's quite some work though.13:07
lekernelalso for RX, you need some non-trivial solution for clock recovery13:08
wpwraklekernel: great ! that's better than i expected13:09
lekernelwell now the problem is I don't know anyone who'd develop such a thing13:10
wpwrakriaanvddool: effects reacting to video would be very very cool to have :)13:10
wpwrak"not impossible" is already a great step forward from "no way" :)13:11
wpwraklekernel: so ... how do you make your DMX controller send individual inputs to the M1 ? do you assign basic light profiles to all the controls and then put the controller it in its "scene learn" mode, so that all the inputs are propagated ?13:24
wpwraki suppose there's then a bank of dedicated scene/show selection buttons that would be unusable ?13:24
wpwrakis this roughly how it works ?13:25
riaanvddool"only needs to sell 80 to be viable " - i am interested to learn how well the units are selling.13:25
riaanvddoolwould love to be involved somehow, maybe organizing local manufacturing in south africa13:25
wpwrakriaanvddool: that 80 units things was a bit of a misunderstanding :) maybe if they were priced at USD 5000 each ;-) 80 units is what qi-hw has produced in the last run. and they'll make more soon13:28
riaanvddoolso more like 800 units to break even?13:28
lekernellocal manufacturing in south africa sounds interesting13:34
lekernelwhat kind of electronics industry do you have there, already?13:35
lekernelriaanvddool, it's difficult to give a volume at which we "break even"... it also depends on what you count as expenses (like developer time for example)13:38
wpwrakyeah, about 800 units to break even would sound better. i don't know the exact numbers, though.13:38
lekernelif you run things like sloccount on the milkymist code base, you'll probably get a very high price the current sales are nowhere near of13:38
wpwraklekernel: did i get the basic DMX-as-M1-controller workflow right ?13:39
lekernelwpwrak, yes, though you can use either MIDI controllers or DMX in almost the same way, and even both at the same time13:40
lekernelthe M1 also supports DMX output to control projectors, lasers, smoke machines, etc. from patches13:40
riaanvddoolTellumat Electronic Manufacturings total throughput for just one of its customers currently exceeds 40,000 printed circuit boards (PCB) per month, giving the South African market a cost-effective, quality, high-capacity alternative to cheap mass production in the Far East.13:42
riaanvddoolas an example: http://www.ventureoutsource.com/contract-manufacturing/south-africas-tellumat-electronic-manufacturing-boosts-pcb-assembly-capacity/13:42
wpwraklekernel: perfect, thanks ! then i think i know how to get that joystick :)13:43
lekernelyeah, sounds like they could build M1s13:44
lekernelhave you looked at some numbers already? usually, to make electronics cheap you need high volumes, which favors a single big manufacturer13:46
lekernelyou could easily become a M1 distributor to start with :-)13:47
riaanvddoolhow do i do that and what is involved?13:47
lekernel(don't get me wrong, I like your idea of local south africa manufacturing. I'm just pointing out some facts.)13:48
riaanvddoolyeah, sure. i realize commiting to a production run needs orders in hard and huge commitment13:49
riaanvddoolif becoming a local M1 distributer would help, i would like to volunteer :)13:50
lekernelwell, at least this would enable you to see if you can sell M1s in South Africa and how many13:50
lekernelbefore you commit to production batches yourself13:51
lekernelhave you done some electronics production in the past? or run a shop?13:52
riaanvddooli don't have a website, as i am in full-time employment13:52
riaanvddoolyes, i have13:52
riaanvddoolelectronic engineer by training and had a business that built industrial cameras13:53
wolfspraulriaanvddool: you are definitely in the right place :-)13:53
lekernelok, cool :)13:53
wolfspraulwe love to share designs and make them manufacturable for everyone13:53
wolfspraulalthough if you did actual runs before, you understand the costs and complications well13:54
wolfspraulso even though we publish everything, really everything 100% what we learn, it's still a lot to copy, or make an improved or localized or customized product13:54
riaanvddoolcool, but would like to distribute first to get the experience with the product13:54
wolfsprauloh for sure13:54
wolfspraulyou bet :-)13:54
wolfspraulyou need to try the product first to even understand whether it has potential!13:55
wolfsprauland in what (realistic) timeframe13:55
wolfspraulhave you seen Sebastien's unboxing video?13:56
riaanvddoolyes, watched it today13:56
riaanvddoolI am quite familiar with the original Milkdrop13:56
riaanvddoolso know the concept13:56
riaanvddooleven  though it is different13:56
wolfspraulbtw, since you have experience with industrial cameras13:57
riaanvddooli have actually VJ'ed once with milkdrop :)13:57
wolfspraulwe include a simple little analog ccd camera with M113:57
wolfspraulSony 1/3'' ccd censor, some electronics, then an analog composite video signal out13:58
riaanvddoolmy industrial cameras where also sony ccd based13:58
wolfspraulI was wondering whether there is a similar cheap little camera but with a sensor that can capture infrared and potentially serve the data needed for thermographic pictures?13:58
riaanvddooli can check13:59
riaanvddoolwhat resolution?13:59
wolfspraulI asked our camera supplier and got a huge list of links and companies back, but no time yet to dig deeper13:59
wolfspraulthat was all pointing to police equipment and what not14:00
riaanvddoolmodern mouse cameras are also quite interesting, but will have to check the resolution14:00
wolfspraulbut I want to keep it very simple, I just need a sensor that can capture the infrared spectrum, I guess :-) (maybe my thinking is wrong somewhere)14:00
riaanvddoolsome sony ccds can do infrared by design14:00
lekernelI think all/most sensors can capture the infrared sensor, you just need to remove the IR filter14:01
riaanvddooljust filter out the visible spectrum and there you go14:01
lekernels/the infrared sensor/the infrared spectrum/14:01
riaanvddoolwhat sony ccd do you use?14:01
wolfspraullekernel: that was my idea too, but so far I haven't found confirmation that it's really that easy :-)14:04
wolfspraulthis came up when we had this idea of a camera to point at an m1 board in testing to find hot spots14:05
wolfsprauldon't know exactly which part number, would need to look it up or dig out from pics14:05
wolfspraulwe haven't fully documented the camera yet, since it's an external part and we just see the composite video signal coming into m1...14:06
lekernelfind hot spots? why do you care?14:06
lekernelwe don't have any overheating-related problem, do we?14:06
wolfspraulI don't want to get deep into ccd cameras either, I think in the few years it will all be cmos or this new reversed cmos stuff14:06
wolfspraulit was for testing14:07
wolfspraulI just explain where the thinking came from (for a thermographic cam)14:07
wolfspraulanecdotally the only heat I know of is from the jtag-serial daughterboard14:07
riaanvddooli was thinking you wanted to do cool visualizations lol14:07
wolfspraulbut we have no systematic temperature data14:07
lekernelare you sure it's not from the power supply?14:07
wolfspraulok we are diverting now. I just used the chance of riaanvddool saying he worked on industrial cams before14:08
lekernelit certainly does get hot, it's based mostly on (foolproof) linear regulators14:08
wolfspraulthat reminded me of my one open item I still have with the camera14:08
riaanvddoolbtw, for thermal range the ccds might not work. thermal is quite far into the IR side14:09
riaanvddoolso how do i become a local distributer?14:10
riaanvddoolcan i give you my details and have it on the website?14:10
riaanvddoolI have a trading name: "Lightwell"14:10
riaanvddoolor "ProDigital"14:11
wolfspraulriaanvddool: email sales@sharism.cc14:11
wolfspraulout for the day... cya14:11
riaanvddoolmaybe rather user ProDigital, cause I want to use Lightwell for something else14:11
lekernel(website) if you sell M1s, yes of course :)14:12
lekernelcc sebastien @ milkymist.org14:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, there's "near IR" and "far IR". the latter is what these really expensive thermoimagining devices "see". but that's not what a camera designed for human-visible light will be any good at detecting14:12
wpwraklekernel: btw, how do you like the "milkymist as a standalone box that just looks good doing what it does without human intervention" marketing meme ? the more i think of it, the less it makes sense to me :)14:13
lekernelthat's only one of the point14:14
wpwrakand another btw, CE0 rework doesn't seem to accomplish much. i currently see a "20% better than before" pattern, but i had that after WE# rework, too, and with more samples, it just went away14:15
wpwrak(marketing) yes, of course. but i think it may set the wrong expectations. first, vjs who fully expect to have to work to get something out of the box may dismiss it as a toy because they'll know that it's not _that_ easy14:16
lekernelriaanvddool, http://web.archive.org/web/20100919121216/http://www.prodigital.co.za/ is you?14:16
wpwrakworse yet, people who believe that marketing message will look at M1 running on its own and be disappointed by the result (the "my screensaver can do that" reaction)14:17
wpwrakalso, people who really are happy with this sort of boring performance may realize that a cheap netbook will be more than sufficient for this, and they can still use their oh so familiar windows :)14:18
riaanvddoolthat was me, yes. seems to be broken in the archive14:18
lekernelyeah, that's why I always say they should connect the camera14:18
lekernelunfortunately the message doesn't always get through14:18
lekernelso I'm improving communication with instructions, diagram, and more recently demo video14:19
wpwrakfurthermore, having that marketing message around may also make people advertize the M1 inefficiently. e.g., someone who likes the M1 for other reasons may think to actually show it doing boring stuff, expecting people to be thrilled anyway14:20
riaanvddoolhow about using the VJ angle?14:20
wpwrakand it even crept into the brochure - the manga girl has a camera man but no vj :)14:20
riaanvddoolas in: VJ in a box, or automated VJ14:20
wpwraki think it's just not the "automated VJ" :)14:21
lekernelno and VJs actually do not like the "automated VJ" :) some even told me I was going to ruin their job, lol!14:21
riaanvddoolamazing what one can do with maths14:21
wpwrakit's a tool for VJs to do their work. and it'll try to look not like a total disaster if the VJ has a quick chat with his groupies, but it won't replace the VJ for long14:22
wpwrakhehe ;-)) there's a lot of precedent for such resentment :)14:22
wpwrakthe camera helps, also because a lot of effects depend on it. so you get either effects that actually work (old firmware) or more effects (new firmware)14:23
wpwrakbut you still need to tune the audio sensitivity, maybe track the center of the effect or move the camera14:24
riaanvddoolhere is me again: http://web.archive.org/web/20100608011302/http://www.lightwell.co.za/14:24
lekernelriaanvddool, how do you plan to sell M1s? online shop? local physical shop? through contacts...?14:25
wpwrakmaybe with time, M1 could learn to do some of these things. e.g., by tracking motion patterns to find the center on its own. likewise for detecting the "right" patterns in audio. all that is probably quite hard.14:25
riaanvddooli have recently bought a Optima LED projector14:25
riaanvddoolplanning to approach some local clubs and demo the concept to them14:26
riaanvddoolusing Milkdrop to create the visuals for now14:26
riaanvddoolthen when I get orders hopefully buy some M1s14:26
riaanvddoolsorry, optoma http://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/pico-pk101/index.php14:27
riaanvddoolbut would be nice to have my name on the website, so if local people find the website i can be a source of information14:28
kristianpaulled projectors are cheap and portable?14:29
riaanvddoolwpwrak: i think if M1 could match the visuals with the 'mood' of the music it would be great14:30
riaanvddoolkristianpaul: under $200 and very portable14:30
lekernelwell...we got 67 visitors from South Africa last month according to google analytics14:30
lekernelcounting yours14:31
riaanvddoolit has a battery and flash disk space, so ideal for demo14:32
riaanvddoolcan carry it in my hand and place on counter, pointing up and play back recorder video clip14:33
riaanvddoolit even produces sound, although somewhat high pitched14:33
riaanvddoolok, im going offline14:37
lekernelhttp://www.xilinx.com/publications/archives/xcell/Xcell77.pdf p. 3014:40
kristianpaullekernel: :)14:43
wpwraknice :)15:15
wpwrakGRRRR. http://www.icon-global.com/ShowPro.aspx?ID=1915:21
wpwrakinexpensive, plenty of knobs/sliders, lacks legacy MIDI but okay, one battle at a time. and it has a JOYSTICK !15:21
wpwrakand then, in the manual: "This joystick works as a mouse pad on your notebook computer." :-(((15:22
lekernelwe could map mouse devices to patch variables in FN15:23
lekernelas a bonus, you could use a mouse too, not only weird "MIDI" controllers15:23
lekernelwhat is most worrying is this USB "composite" device, probably a lot of overengineering and pain15:23
wpwraki think there are two approaches: the composite device and just multiple interfaces15:24
wpwrakremember my little wireless keyboard ?15:24
lekernelor integrated hub15:24
lekernelall three are a bunch of crap15:24
wpwrakah yes, 3rd option :)15:24
lekernelyeah why make it simple15:25
wpwrakwell, multiple interfaces doesn't sound too hostile15:25
lekernelwe are in USB land here15:25
lekernelhome of Rube Goldberg machines15:25
wpwrakah, and how many knob/slider controls do you envision one would need if making maxmimum use of the M1 ? (assuming anything XY in nature is already taken care of somehow)15:36
kristianpaullekernel: where do you sourced price for that artix-7?17:27
lekernelI'm just guessing17:27
lekernelhaving it more expensive than the 6slx45 wouldn't be like what xilinx has done so far17:28
kristianpaulhopefully :)17:29
lekernelnah I'm pretty confident about that17:29
kristianpaulin the worst case i hope dont look in toon spartan3 isnt?:)17:30
kristianpaulbtw i saw that papillio board project for your tdc, nice :)17:30
lekernelspartan 3 is dead17:31
lekernelit's not a TDC, it's just that the TDC demo project was an easy starting point to get LM32 on the papillio17:34
wpwraklekernel: number of controls: did you find the 10 sliders sufficient for your patch control needs ? would you worry about needing more soon ?17:48
lekernelis that NOR really $10?17:49
lekernelthat's horribly expensive17:49
lekernelI remember Wolfgang telling me it was much cheaper17:49
lekernelunless they made some sourcing mistake17:50
wpwrakthat's what it costs at digi-key. may be a bit cheaper in china17:50
wpwrakhmm, the inventory is cryptic: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Sharism_inventory17:52
wpwraklists a price but doesn't show for what quantity17:52
wpwrakyour FPGA is still more expensive, though :) if the quantities are the same, thrice the price17:53
wpwrakmeaning that you probably can't make it USD 9917:53
wpwrakbut then, if you drop a lot of features anyway, a smaller FPGA will probably do nicely17:54
wpwrakah, an alternative to serial flash may be a microcontroller that takes over the uSD card and moves the data into the FPGA. in case xilinx are following recent trends in how SoCs boot, they may even have added native MMC boot :)17:55
rohthat would be nice18:07
rohstill.. serial flash is popular. just had a device with 4mb of it on the table. with 32mb ram18:07
lekernelideally we have none of those pesky memory cards at all18:08
wpwrakmemory cards are good for you :)18:08
rohboots a full linux from there (32bit mips 400mhz wifi router).. so if one can cache the flash in ram if may be not the worst idea to go serial flash/mmc and cache in ram18:08
wpwrakplenty of storage, nice and simple protocol (compared to USB ;-), and it's removable18:09
rohram is cheap compared to flash/flash with many pins18:09
wpwrakremovable = all the unbricking/restoring/recovery business happens _outside_ your box. i.e., not really your problem anymore :)18:10
wpwraklekernel: so .. happy with those 8 sliders ? need more ?18:11
wpwraki found this DMX controller: http://www.abbatrading.com/site/detalle/?idProducto=32218:11
wpwrakten sliders, at least ten usable buttons, JOYSTICK ! and it's some dirt-cheap china clone18:12
wpwraksells here for less than USD 100 per kilo. still a few times more expensive than the best meat, but we're getting there ;-)18:13
lekernelthe flash is already cached in SDRAM on the M118:14
lekernelyou can even compress the image, but decompression makes booting slow (at least with LZMA, I have not tried others)18:15
lekernelwpwrak, 8 sliders looks OK...18:16
lekerneliirc that's how many variables are supported in the patches atm anyway18:16
wpwrakkewl. thanks ! time to go shopping then :)18:22
wpwrakah, do i have to close the DMX loop ? or just controller -> M1 ?18:23
lekerneljust controller -> M118:25
lekernelthe M1 has integrated DMX terminations18:25
lekerneland a repeater18:25
wpwrakexcellent. thanks !18:27
rohwpwrak: dmx is easy. basically its a rs485 bus with termination18:28
rohit has 512 addresses which all have 1 8bit value18:28
rohso its 'startcond. -> 512 8bit values... endcond.18:28
kristianpaullekernel: sure i knew it about tdc, i was just about to comment you mixing vhdl with verilog or moving to vhdl soc :)19:19
kristianpaulwpwrak: afortunatly most recent computer have mmc and boot from it,so is not bad path tought :)19:21
wpwrakhmm, i found the manual for that DMX controller and i like it a lot less after reading how it works. seems that the only thing you can really use are the faders and the joystick. all the rest is for organizing the controller's program, which is useless for the intended purpose. i.e., none of the buttons would do anything useful and two of the ten sliders would also control "hardwired" functions that are useless. so i think i'm back to lo20:56
wpwrakoking at MIDI again.20:56
wpwrakplan B would be to get a DMX controller and trying to change the firmware. after all, the mechanical elements are there. but that seems a bit chancy.20:57
mwallelekernel: nice article in xcell, although its a little xilinx centric ;)21:13
mwallecan the artix series be configured from an spi flash?21:24
mwallexilinx cites "Spartan-6 FPGAs are the industrys first and only FPGA that provides direct open configuration memory interface."21:27
Action: mwalle remembers platform flash (and compatible third party flashes) to be very expensive21:28
lekernelhm? I think so, it worked for some spartan 3's (iirc)21:44
kristianpaulmwalle: cheers to the DMCs !:)22:16
wolfspraulyes the NOR chip is around 10-12 USD or so, without 'sourcing mistake'22:17
wolfsprauland it always was, and digikey is a good initial check for the price of an unknown chip22:18
wolfspraul(or octopart)22:18
wolfspraul10.50 USD to be precise. http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC3_BOM22:18
wolfspraulyou can go to that wiki page, and click on "Usage Price" to get the table sorted by most/least expensive22:19
mwallekristianpaul: dcms?22:20
Action: wpwrak may get his victory over a flash chip yet ;-)22:25
wpwrakso far, i've actually even been guilty for adding one to a design. luckily, in a very conservative configuration, so that one acted up only a little22:26
wpwraklekernel: hah, found the generic DMX also at your shop: http://www.sonovente.com/mac-mah-control-12-scan-controleurs-dmx-p16054.htm22:34
kristianpaulmwalle: xcell p 3222:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: regarding marketing, what do you think of approaching heise about getting more than just an entry in the newsticker ?22:36
wolfspraulgotta run, but I would not touch the nor chip now22:42
wolfspraulfix the corruption bug, leave it alone22:42
wolfspraulnot a single anybody has given feedback that the nor chip causes any problems22:43
wolfspraulwhat we hear is 'still pictures'22:43
wolfspraulusb midi22:43
wolfsprauland more22:43
wpwrakoh, all this is about the "minimist", not about M1rc4/5/6/7/8/...22:43
wolfsprauloh sure, I'm not against it at all, especially if it makes the platform more portable etc. but it's A LOT of work22:43
wolfspraulartix-7 also comes to mind then22:44
wpwraklekernel: so ... about that DMX. what you have is a variant of the device i had in mind. you say that you're not too happy with its response time. so that already speaks a bit against it. from reading the manual, i suspect that the buttons can't be used for, say, switching patches. that is, unless you assign a whole channel (with fader) to it. is this correct, or did i miss anythhing ?22:47
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