#milkymist IRC log for Monday, 2011-10-24

wpwrakwolfspraul: i noticed that the NOR is simply the first on the list with the desires size. that's how it was picked, right ? :)01:16
wolfspraulonly Sebastien knows01:16
wolfspraulhe started by looking at some reference schematics, or the ml-401 board maybe? that would be another place to look for the origin, if you like01:17
wpwrakah, so maybe applied that approach then :)01:18
wpwraks/maybe/maybe they/01:31
azonenbergHave you guys used the xilinx MIG / MCB?02:57
azonenbergI'm trying to get an XC6SLX45 talking to DDR202:58
wolfspraulI think we are not using the xilinx mcb02:58
azonenbergSo you are using raw GPIO pins and doing all of the DDR logic in CLBs?02:58
wolfspraulit's a big guess, but yes, that could be it02:59
wolfspraulthe reason was to keep Milkymist more portable, among other things02:59
azonenbergBecause right now i am fighting with the MIG and its not playing well02:59
azonenberglol02:59
wolfspraulalso there seem to be some mcb bugs, but bugs are everywhere so I doubt that's the key reason02:59
azonenbergThe issue i'm seeing - i wont call it a bug as its more likely me not understanding what i'm doing02:59
wolfspraulxilinx is definitely having 'problems' with mcb in s-6, just my gut feeling from reading statements etc.02:59
azonenbergis that i am feeding a 200 MHz clock into the module, which is doubled to 40003:00
wolfspraulsome s-6 variants have no mcb, the ones that do had yield (availability) problems for a long time, etc.03:00
azonenbergand their own MIG internal code03:00
azonenbergis failing timing03:00
wolfspraulI am sure eventually that thing can be made to work, but I cannot help03:00
azonenbergif i cut the clock to below 200 the PLL complains "input clock too slow"03:00
azonenberglol03:00
wolfspraulI can only give you the high-level bottom line "there are issues with it"03:00
azonenbergI assume you guys' ddr controller is GPLed?03:01
wolfspraulI think so yes03:01
azonenberg:(03:01
azonenbergMy project is BSD licensed03:01
azonenbergi cant use it03:01
wolfspraulmaybe sebastien can relicense or dual-license that part, that's up to him03:01
azonenbergI have no objections with a dual license etc but i want to keep my project under a permissive license03:02
azonenbergi'm still researching options now but i cant even get a simple demo design using the MCB to compile03:02
wolfspraulsince we all love your project, I cannot imagine Sebastien wouldn't want to share that part with you, but again, it's up to him03:02
wolfspraulyou are not the first one I hear talking about problems with the mcb in s-603:03
wolfspraulbut I don't know details, only that much03:03
azonenbergThis project is actually unrelated to homecmos, it's an open source softcore CPU designed for heavy number crunching03:03
wolfspraulgreat03:03
wolfspraul:-)03:03
azonenbergtarget is 200 MHz on a s6 -2, not sure if i can hit that03:03
azonenberg4-way SIMD floating point03:03
azonenbergusing xilinx FPU cores initially and then gradually replacing with opencores etc03:04
wolfspraulif it's properly freely licensed, maybe in can be used on m1 still03:04
azonenbergMIPS 1 instruction set (all patents expired) but a completley new microarchitecture03:04
wolfspraulwe can multi-core a little :-)03:04
wolfspraulbe careful about "all mips patents expired"03:04
azonenbergAll of the mips 1 patents are03:04
azonenbergmips 1 came out >17 yrs ago03:04
wolfspraulthe patent system doesn't work like this03:04
azonenbergi havent looked at more recent arch versions03:04
wolfsprauldoesn't matter03:04
azonenbergLoongson omitted unaligned load/stores03:05
azonenbergdue to a patent that expired around three years ago03:05
wolfspraulLoongson is paying03:05
wolfsprauleverybody is paying03:05
wolfspraulas long as MIPS Inc. is around they will defend their turf. if you make money with anything MIPS, they will come after you.03:05
azonenbergAll i can say is, i did some pretty exhaustive reading and it looks like mips1 is as unencumbered as 805103:05
azonenbergnewer versions, definitely not so03:06
wolfspraulif you make money, mips inc. will come after you03:06
wolfsprauland you will pay :-)03:06
azonenbergI have no plans to make money :p03:06
wolfspraulthen you are safe of most patent problems anyway03:06
azonenbergits for me to get practice in FPGA stuff, and will be used in one noncommercial research project (single unit run size)03:06
azonenbergBut again, i dont see how patents could still be covering any part of the *instruction set*03:07
azonenbergof mips 103:07
wolfspraul:-)03:07
wpwrakhow exactly would they entice you to pay ? by threatening to attack you with claims they know they can't make stick until you run out of money for legal defenses ?03:07
wolfspraulyou don't want to give up :-)03:07
azonenbergconsidering that i am  completely reimplementing the microarchitecture03:07
wolfspraulnah come on, the system doesn't work like this03:07
azonenbergas in, i'm not even using their pipeline design03:07
wpwrakthrough unrelated patents they hold that you may happen to "violate" ?03:07
wolfspraulthey will just attack you, and sooner or later you will understand it's just better for you to pay a few cents per chip than to fight03:08
wpwrakor have they found a way to make the old patents last longer ? if yes, how ?03:08
wolfspraulyou think like an engineer03:08
wolfspraulone day you arrive in the real world :-)03:08
wolfspraulif you do anything mips, you will pay03:08
wpwrakso the legal attrition approach03:08
wolfsprauldone03:08
azonenbergAlso, i dont know if loongson is paying03:08
wolfspraulI have been part of this first-hand03:08
wolfspraulloongson is paying03:08
wolfspraulthey simply bribed the government03:08
wolfspraulproblem solved03:08
wolfspraul:-)03:08
azonenbergThey bought a mips license specifically so they can promote it as mips compatible03:09
azonenbergthen two years later they licensed the whole architecture and started implementing mips3203:09
azonenbergi have no plans to implement anything past mips103:09
wolfspraul:-)03:09
kristianpaulwpwrak: some comercial trades agreements for example expand rights, like avoiding beatles son be public domain ;)03:09
wpwrakkristianpaul: okay, but that's an entirely different set of legal constructs03:10
wolfspraulas long as MIPS Inc. is around they will tax anything MIPS, and they will succeed. everybody in the industry knows that and has accepted it.03:10
wolfsprauland it's a very small tax actually03:10
wolfspraula business man focused on profits will pay and move on03:10
kristianpaulwpwrak: ah sure, i'm just giving you an analogy :), dunno if match our case03:10
wolfspraulthere are much bigger taxes everywhere03:10
azonenbergwolfspraul: But an open project cannot pay patent license fees03:11
wolfspraulsomeone eventually will sell something03:11
wolfsprauland that's where it will be taxed03:11
wolfspraulif it doesn't have a 'license'03:11
wolfspraultrust me03:11
wolfspraulI am not telling you to not do your MIPS thing03:12
wolfspraulbut when I hear "mips patents expired" I have to laugh a little03:12
azonenbergLook at http://jonahprobell.com/lexra.html though03:12
wolfspraulgiven that I know the key people who are running the show there03:12
kristianpaulazonenberg: i guess just skip first talking about MIPS if you already re-write the whole thing?03:12
azonenbergLexra implemented mips 1 without unaligned loads and stores03:12
azonenbergGot sued for trademark infringement03:12
wolfspraulyou mean sued by MIPS?03:13
azonenbergYes03:13
wolfspraulyes MIPS actively defends their trademark too03:13
azonenbergand settled by agreeing not to use mips trademarks without attribution and a few other little things03:13
azonenbergWhich basically means, if i happen to use their ISA03:13
azonenbergWithout using any patented instructions03:13
azonenbergAnd dont use their trademarks anywhere03:13
azonenbergthen it's clean03:13
azonenberg"After its experience with Lexra MIPS Technologies changed all of its 32-bit cores to use its new MIPS32 instruction           set which extends the MIPS-I instruction set to include other features patented by MIPS Technologies. This is similar           to Intel's addition of the instruction set extensions to Pentium III in order to prevent AMD from building           compatible processors.          "03:14
wolfspraulgee03:14
wolfspraulok03:14
wolfspraulplease try this03:14
wolfspraula mental exercise03:14
azonenbergSo basically, dont use any >mips1 instructions03:14
wolfspraulyou know the patent system, roughly, from reading the news. right? we all do03:14
wolfspraulimagine you are sitting in a MIPS Inc. office03:14
wolfspraulimagine you are a bad guy03:15
wolfspraulreally mean03:15
wolfsprauljust trying to make money03:15
wolfspraulnothing else03:15
wolfspraulMIPS has ltos of patents, old and new03:15
azonenbergThen i'd go after someone who actually had money to take03:15
wolfspraultrue?03:15
wolfsprauland they keep filing for more03:15
wolfspraulall the time03:15
wolfspraulnow there are some hippies who follow this 'patents have expired' thing03:15
wolfspraulok, fine, you think03:15
wolfspraulnow they have no money, next03:15
wolfsprauloh... some of them are makign money now? wow03:15
wolfspraullet's see03:15
wolfsprauldo you think you have a chance going after them?03:16
azonenbergProbably not03:16
wolfsprauland explaining to them that it's cheaper for them to pay 2-10 cents per chip to you, than to fight a multi-year patent war over what exactly is expired or not?03:16
azonenbergThe way i see it is, courts have already ruled on this matter03:16
azonenbergmips1 patents were those four instructions, that one patent03:16
wpwrakazonenberg: they may also consider that a project that gets away may erode their ability to milk others03:16
azonenbergWhich expired four or five years ago03:16
azonenbergUse their trademarks, you're in trouble03:17
azonenbergOtherwise it looks like they have no basis03:17
wolfspraulwhich court has ruled against MIPS? which chip maker is making *anything* MIPS and not paying?03:17
azonenbergLoongson was for quite a while03:17
wolfspraul:-)03:17
azonenbergthe only reason loongson got a license was to use mips3203:17
azonenbergand to get the trademarks03:17
azonenbergWhich was a sound business strategy, most mips binaries these days are mips3203:17
azonenbergAnd using the trademarks makes your product more marketable03:18
wolfspraulalright then03:18
Action: kristianpaul off bed03:18
azonenbergfor example plasma is a mips1 processor (using the actual mips microarch, 5 stage pipeline etc)03:19
azonenbergon opencores03:19
azonenbergnot licensing it at all03:19
wolfspraulsure03:19
azonenbergand they've been used in a decent number of projects03:19
wolfspraulthey also got some nastigrams years ago03:19
azonenbergPlasma did?03:19
wolfspraultrademark03:19
azonenbergYeah03:19
wolfspraulpatents only come when someone makes money03:19
azonenbergSo the easy solution is, stay squeaky clean and never use the trademark03:19
wolfspraulits' easy to explain what is cheaper03:20
wolfspraulthat's a good start03:20
wolfspraulthat solves the trademark problem03:20
azonenbergAnd the one patent that has caused problems with mips1 is expired03:20
wolfspraulafter that, stay away from anything where a patent shark is protecting his turf03:20
azonenberg>=2 is dangerous territory03:20
wolfspraulsorry but if you really believe in the power of 'expired' patents, you are not in touch with patent reality03:20
azonenbergi think some of those instructions are still covered03:20
wpwrakazonenberg: since MIPS and you are both in the US, maybe make friends in the local gun nuts community, and brag publicly about your new acquaintances and just how much they hate lawyers. after all MAD worked to keep the cold war cold, ... :)03:20
azonenbergExplain how so many people started implementing 805103:21
wolfspraulthey will corner you03:21
wolfsprauluntil you pay03:21
azonenbergas soon as the intel patents expired03:21
wolfspraulwho is defending 8051 patents?03:21
azonenbergand afaik many (most?) are not licensing03:21
azonenbergintel was, until they expired03:21
wolfspraulis Intel known to fight against 8051 users?03:21
wolfspraulI don't know the 8051 story03:21
wolfspraullook at the aggressors03:21
wolfsprauldon't read patents word by word and think like an engineer03:21
wolfspraulthat's not how the system works03:21
wolfspraulif Intel doesn't actively fight for the 8051 patents then 8051 is safe03:21
wolfspraulMIPS on the other hand is known to actively and aggressively go after trademarks, patents, everything03:22
wolfspraulas the 2 projects you pointed to already show wrt trademarks (nexra, plasma)03:22
azonenbergSo like i said, the solution is to locate all of them and verify you are clean by any reading of the wording03:22
wolfsprauland I tell you with patents it's such that until today, nobody succeeded on the 'mips patents have expired' path03:23
azonenbergfor example, never use the text "mips" anywhere in documenataion or source code03:23
wolfsprauldefinitely03:23
wolfspraulI 100% agree with you on that03:23
wolfspraulnext step: give up on that idea that some patents have 'expired'03:23
azonenbergAnd if i dont implement any instructions that were added to the architecture since today's date 17 years ago03:23
wolfsprauljust get over it03:23
azonenbergwhat claim do they have?03:23
wolfspraulit's not true in reality03:23
azonenbergShow me a case where someone has succeeded in court by suing on the basis of an expired patent?03:24
azonenbergThe R2000 was released in 198503:24
wolfspraulshow me one manufacturer of MIPS-anything chips that is not paying to MIPS Inc.03:24
azonenbergthat's 26 years ago03:24
wolfspraulthey will defend this03:24
azonenbergAll of the manufacturers use mips3203:24
azonenbergmost of the open ones are mips103:25
wpwrakazonenberg: how do you tell people how to build a cross-compiler ?03:25
azonenbergtell me there isnt a reason03:25
wolfspraulbut you are free to follow the long sequence of businesses before you that have tried to change this :-)03:25
wolfsprauluntil today they all failed03:25
wolfspraulincluding the ones in China with strong political govt backing03:25
wolfspraulmaybe you will do it03:25
azonenbergWhy do you say loongson failed?03:25
azonenbergThey didnt03:25
wolfspraulbut sooner or later I think you will understand the logic of the arguments they will be making to you in a few years03:25
wolfspraulthey failed to stay outside of the MIPS licensing regime03:26
azonenbergThey decided they would be more marketable if they implemented the full architecture03:26
wolfspraulwho are you arguing for now?03:26
azonenbergfor quite some years they were implementing mips1 and paying nothing03:26
wolfsprauland?03:26
wolfspraulmaybe we are on the same page actually03:26
wolfspraulgo in that direction, and sooner or later you will pay03:26
azonenbergSo the poitn is, mips didnt go after them except for the trademark03:26
wolfspraulhah03:26
wolfspraulI am out of arguments03:27
wolfspraulstay away from MIPS trademark, that's a good start03:28
azonenbergi only see one legal opinion from a quick search involving a mips case that went to court03:28
azonenbergand it was related to a suit against the company03:28
azonenbergnot by them03:28
wolfspraulthis stuff typically doesn't go to court03:28
wolfspraulit's all about business, making money03:28
wolfspraulMIPS is very reasonable, at least that03:29
wolfspraul2-10 cents per chip, it's really not a big deal03:29
wpwrakso maybe all it takes is someone with the backbone to reject the extortion :)03:29
wolfsprauland then you are covered under the big umbrella03:29
wolfspraulsooner or later you will understand that that is better than be out in the rain03:29
wolfspraulI understand it may be depressing to look at the patent system like that, but that's from my real industry experience03:30
wpwrak"you better pay for protection. you never know what could happen ..." where have i heard that before ? ;-)03:30
wolfspraulthe only way to be safe from MIPS Inc. is to completely stay away from any of their stuff, not just trademark03:31
wolfspraulthen you still have random trolls of course, if you make a lot of money03:31
wolfspraulbut MIPS Inc. focuses on their turf. 'patents have expired' has never worked so far.03:32
wpwrakwell, if azonenberg can make a credible statement that he will and can actually fight back long enough that there may be a ruling against MIPS, even if they can later get it reversed, then MIPS may decide not to push weak claims and risk having their weakness exposed in all the press03:32
wolfspraulit's nice how you copy/paste the loongson reasoning here btw03:32
azonenbergwolfspraul: And it worked03:32
wolfsprauloh my :-)03:33
azonenbergThey paid nothing until they decided they weren't selling enough03:33
wolfspraulyes it did03:33
azonenbergat which point they licensed mips3203:33
azonenbergand started paying03:33
azonenbergBut until then, they were selling chips and paying nothing03:33
azonenbergand not sued for over two years03:33
wolfspraulyou really believe that, right?03:33
wpwrak2 years isn't particularly long ..03:33
azonenbergand afaik nobody has *ever* sued them over that version of the chip03:33
azonenbergi dont think loongson even got sued at all03:33
wolfspraulgee03:34
azonenbergfrom my reading of the articles they approached mips and say "we wants mips32, let us have it"03:34
wolfspraulha ha03:34
wolfsprauloh my03:34
wolfspraulthis does make my day03:34
wolfspraulno it's not like that, really03:34
wpwrakit's all about saving face :)03:34
wolfspraulbut yes, everybody is happy now03:35
wolfspraulso why discuss03:35
wolfspraulloongson has understood that they are better off paying03:35
wolfspraullike you say yourself03:35
wolfspraulso... problems solved03:35
wolfspraulwhat's bad about paying a few cents to MIPS actually?03:36
wolfspraulwe pay so many fees here and there, often hidden behind laws and regulations03:36
azonenbergBecause it means the project is admitting they are no longer unencumbered03:36
wpwrakwhat's bad about paying a kidnapper ?03:36
wolfspraulMIPS Inc. is known to aggressively defend their IP03:37
wolfspraulso what03:37
wolfspraulthat is known, no need to discuss03:37
wolfspraulARM too btw03:37
azonenbergYes, but in every case i see a clear violation of a trademark03:37
azonenbergor something similar03:37
wolfspraulyes03:37
wolfspraulI 100% agree with you on that03:37
wolfspraulthat's why we do things like 8:1003:37
wolfsprauland maybe I would do the same with USB and others later, who knos03:37
wolfspraulknows03:38
wpwrakagain, the MAD logic helps here: you just have to make it credible that you're too crazy to be afraid03:38
wolfspraulthe reason we started this whole discussion was because of your 'patents have expired' line03:38
azonenbergI can find no recorded cases of them complaining about anyone implementing the original archiecture without using their tradmeark03:38
wolfsprauland I wanted to highlight that in real life, this argument really doesn't matter03:38
azonenbergWhy?03:38
wolfspraulyes true, as I said already. Please make sure to not use MIPS anywhere, that is indeed a very good start.03:38
azonenbergThey wont file a case that has no basis03:38
wolfspraulok03:39
azonenbergso its as simple as, dont give them one03:39
wolfspraulyou be the next to try03:39
wolfspraulthey are ready for you03:39
wpwrakactually, getting sued may be useful03:39
wolfspraulbut only after there are at least a few million to take from you03:39
wolfspraulfine, try03:39
wpwrakbecause then you could publicly state that you're being / you've been sued by MIPS. and this use the trademark ;-)03:40
wpwraks/this/thus/03:40
wolfspraula business has no interest to cleanup the legal system, patent system, etc.03:40
wolfspraula business will focus on making more moeny03:40
wolfspraulwell, nobody will do this in real life03:40
azonenbergwolfspraul: nobody will do what03:40
wolfspraulif azonenberg is the CEO of a small chip maker in 10 years, he will make the right decision then, as everybody else03:40
wolfsprauland if this chips are based on mips somewhere, he will get an architecture license because it is good for his business03:41
azonenbergBut the question i ask is, what if i dont03:41
azonenbergwhat if i keep making mips103:41
azonenbergnot using their trademark03:41
azonenbergand not using any recently added instructions03:41
wolfsprauleventually you will realize you will be better off with an architecture license03:41
azonenbergI'm not asking that03:41
azonenbergI'm asking, will they have any basis to complain03:42
azonenbergIn a business sense, i'd probably license it because it would be cheaper than reimplementing03:42
wolfspraulit seems you are setting up your company to make a point about the expiration status of a few patents03:42
azonenbergBut if i am running an open project03:42
azonenbergas you guys should understand03:42
azonenbergSay, for example03:42
wolfsprauloh sure03:42
wolfspraulyou are safe03:42
wolfspraulbut your argument was 'mips patents have expired'03:42
azonenbergmilkymist deployed my core instead of latticemico03:42
azonenbergLet's say milkymist sells 50,000 units next year03:42
wolfsprauland that's a dangerous argument to make, others may follow and not understand the consequences03:42
azonenbergmips wants money03:43
azonenbergMy argument was, *that specific* patent has expired03:43
azonenbergWhich was the last one they have ever sued anyone over mips1 about03:43
azonenbergand the last one anyone has been able to come up with that covers mips103:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: setting up a company that is actually expected to be hit by such a lawsuit may not be such a bad idea if your true objective is to fight this kind of excesses of the intellectual property system03:43
wolfspraulmaybe, but nobody is doing that afaik03:44
azonenbergAlthough Lexra had announced its wares as MIPS compatible it had removed four Cobol compiler-dependent instructions not deemed necessary, and seen performance shoot up 30%. MIPS accused it of making false compatibility claims and of using the MIPS trademark in a misleading manner. The newly signed memorandum sees Lexra agreeing not to represent its products as MIPS compatible, and agreeing to accurately indicate that its LX-408003:44
wolfspraulthere are so many good causes you can go after in this world, are you sure this one should be on top?03:44
azonenbergNo, and that isnt what i'm intending to do03:44
azonenbergI'm asking, if a project like milkymist starts getting on radars03:44
azonenbergusing a core like this03:44
wolfsprauldifficult question03:44
azonenbergDoes mips have any legal basis to go after them03:44
wolfspraulmy patent strategy is to stay off of radars as much as possible03:45
azonenbergAnd if so, what can be done to the core to make this less likely03:45
wolfspraulthat's the strategy03:45
wolfspraulbut now, what if we do show up on some patent radar03:45
wolfspraulfrom a troll03:45
wolfspraulfrom MIPS03:45
wolfspraulfrom anybody03:45
wolfspraulwhat then?03:45
wolfspraulpay?03:45
wolfspraulthrow out the tech that is being debated?03:45
wolfspraulfight to death, take on the entire system?03:45
wpwrakit may be another nail in the coffin of the current patent system. mips are certainly not the only ones who count on being able to use their patents beyond formal expiration. if you succeed in breaking this model, the whole value of such portfolios drops.03:45
wolfspraulok03:46
wolfspraulbut you are up against a huge system03:46
wolfspraulrealistically you will fail, nobody else03:46
wolfspraulI would probably pay to try to make them go away03:46
wolfspraulI would also play incorporation tricks like letting one company go bankrupt, setting up a new one03:46
wolfspraulmove country03:46
wolfspraulin parallel I would try to remove any tech that is used as a hook, to follow the bigger 'stay off of radars' strategy03:47
wolfspraulI would try to publish any and all communication with them03:47
wolfspraulthat alone would be a lot of fun03:47
azonenbergThe fundamental question is03:47
azonenbergat a more basic level03:47
azonenbergIf one wants to make a softcore from scratch03:47
azonenbergUsing an existing RISC ISA and a completely new microarchitecture03:48
azonenbergThat there are already C compilers etc for03:48
azonenbergare there *any* that are not patent encumbered?03:48
wolfspraulhard to say03:48
azonenbergi chose mips1 as one that i was familiar with and that had no current patents i could find03:48
wolfspraulask "which have the least likelihood of a patent attack?"03:48
wpwrakstep one: get rms to make an alias of the arch name for you. i think he'll be more than happy to do that :)03:49
wolfspraulI think mico32 is a good start, although lm32 support in compilers is weak03:49
wolfspraulmips is known to be a patent landmine03:49
wolfspraulso is ARM03:49
azonenbergwolfspraul: But they are widely supported03:49
wolfspraula real troll can go after anything of course03:49
azonenbergExactly03:49
wolfspraulyeah fine but I try to answer your question03:49
wolfspraulor rather I first rephrased it :-)03:49
wpwrakplan B: since 8051 seems to be safe, extend it to 32 or 64 nits ;-)03:49
azonenbergA troll can claim your sandwich or laser pointer cat exerciser violates his patent03:49
wolfspraul"which has the least likelihood of a patent attack?"03:50
wpwraks/nits//bits/03:50
wolfsprauland mips is definitely not at the top of that list03:50
wolfspraulmore at the top of the "most likely" list03:50
azonenbergwpwrak: if i was going to extent 805103:50
wolfspraulsure if Intel is calm on 8051, I think we can trust that they won't reverse course03:50
wolfspraulI don't know much about 8051 (the real-life patent situation)03:50
azonenberg(which would mean new c compilers etc anyway)03:50
azonenbergi'd go all out03:50
azonenbergand do a full custom arch03:50
wolfspraulbut I think Intel in general is a somewhat trustworthy giant, no?03:50
wpwrakARM, atmel, should also be vying for the top03:51
azonenbergi designed an 8-bit, i can do a 3203:51
wpwrakintel are too big to play dirty :)03:51
wolfspraulif Intel owns the old (expired) 8051 patents, and Intel has been shown to not hunt down people for x years, that's a good sign that it's safe03:51
azonenbergThe thing is, i'd have to do a gcc port of my architecture03:51
azonenbergwolfspraul: also, the last patent suit against a mips1 implementation was five years ago03:52
wolfspraulmost are behind closed doors, they never reach a court03:52
wolfspraulMIPS is a very aggressive patent defender, just believe it now03:52
wolfspraulyou can get a feeling for how well they defend their trademark...03:52
wolfspraulthat's just how it is03:53
azonenbergand again, i agree that openly using the trademark is silly03:53
wolfspraulgood03:53
azonenbergBecause it is something they clearly have a claim to03:53
azonenbergBut the instruction set?03:53
wolfspraulMIPS is actively using patents to defend their 'ecosystem'03:53
wolfsprauldon't try to play cheap little engineer tricks with them03:53
wolfspraulI have seen thick books arguing the details of this and that bit in this and that register03:53
wolfspraulit all won't work03:54
azonenbergDecember 23, 200603:54
wolfspraulyou can pay millions for your legal team if you like03:54
azonenbergwas when it expired03:54
wolfsprauland attack the MIPS ecosystem03:54
wolfsprauland MIPS will throw their entire company behind the defense03:54
wolfspraulgood luck!03:54
azonenbergI have seen no suits filed since that date03:54
wpwrakazonenberg: one risk may be an implementation technique you use that's "similar" to something they've patented03:55
azonenbergmips announces evry time they sue someone03:55
azonenbergwpwrak: I will be using a ~20 stage pipeline03:55
wolfspraulalright, gotta run03:55
azonenbergmips1 used around five03:55
azonenbergso do most of the newer ones03:55
wolfspraulyou are safe anyway because your project is just a hobbyist/academic project03:55
wpwraki.e., when you provoke them, they may search for patents not on your radar you may have unintentionally violated03:55
wolfsprauland if you keep their trademark out you will not hear from them, ever03:55
azonenbergwolfspraul: Thats what i'm saying - if you dont use the trademark or market the cpu as compatible03:56
wolfspraulif you have a business and numbers to make each quarter, you will realize sooner or later it is better to team up with them03:56
azonenbergI dont think they have any option03:56
wolfspraulsure03:56
wolfsprauland no interest03:56
azonenbergno matter how many you are selling03:56
wolfspraulI mean "better" without any cynicism btw03:56
wolfspraulit is better, economically03:56
wolfspraulmaybe you are not fighting for a better world anymore, but for a better bottom line of your company surely03:56
wpwrakof course, if someone starts fighting back, that may help a lot of others, making this indeed a better world03:58
lekernelwpwrak, rms won't touch anything hardware09:35
lekernel"hardware is built by companies, and ethics do not matter with companies"09:35
lekernelwpwrak, rms won't touch anything hardware09:36
lekernel"hardware is built by companies, and ethics do not matter with companies"09:36
lekernelazonenberg, if you get a M1 for your project, we can discuss switching the license of my memory controller to BSD (plus you will already get an out of the box working implementation)09:36
wpwraklekernel: oh, he doesn't have to touch hardware. just add a new name to the long list of archs :)11:25
devnanyone have any videos or anything of people using milkymist?18:22
devnexamples of what can be done with it, etc?18:22
lekernelhttp://vimeo.com/3084245118:27
Fallenouwin 5219:24
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