#milkymist IRC log for Tuesday, 2011-10-18

terpstra #scala11:18
terpstraups =)11:18
kristianpaulha, interesting http://www.ohwr.org/projects/wishbone-gen/wiki/Wbgen2_ram it seems can handle clock domains for me :)11:18
kristianpaulhey terpstra ! :)11:18
terpstrahi11:18
lekernelhi terpstra, welcome back :)11:19
lekernelwere you at icalepcs?11:20
terpstrayep11:20
terpstrabut not for the workshops on sunday11:20
lekernelI also hanged around a bit on the next days, but I missed you...11:24
lekernelthe industrial exhibition was interesting :)11:24
terpstradid you see the workshop on DSLs ?11:24
terpstratutorial*11:24
lekernelI learned about ADCs, diamond-based neutron detectors, high precision piezo drives and 1.2nm position encoders11:25
lekernelno11:25
lekerneldid you?11:26
terpstrayes, i'm learning MPS and scala as we speak11:26
lekernel"Scala is fully interoperable with Java."11:29
lekernelhum :-)11:29
lekernelis that a selling point? *g*11:29
terpstrait depends what you want11:30
terpstrascala is about as high level as languages get11:30
lekernelMPS = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBrains_MPS ?11:32
terpstrayes11:32
lekernelalso java-based... hum11:33
terpstrano11:33
terpstraMPS's GUI is java based11:33
terpstrathe code it generates can be C11:33
terpstraor something else11:33
terpstrathe cool thing about MPS is that you aren't editing one language or even text11:34
terpstrathey call it a "projective editor"11:34
terpstrawhich means it represents its AST as text which you type as normal, but really you are operating on the AST11:34
terpstrathat means your code can include tables, flow charts, ambiguous grammer, etc -- and it all works11:34
lekernelis it a bit like lisp macros?11:49
terpstrano11:52
terpstrathis "projective editor" concept is really something new11:53
terpstrascala was also quite popular at icaleps... it supposedly unifies OOP and FP. as a FP programmer who has to work with OOP folks, I am seeing if it is a nice middle ground =D11:54
lekernellooks like a lot of clicking12:01
wpwrakcompromise-driven programming ? :)12:08
terpstrahttp://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey12:50
terpstraexcellent talk!12:50
lekernelwhat's so great about Java? frankly (and sorry for that) I would describe it as some over-marketed junk that is merely about combining the disadvantages of compiled and interpreted languages13:02
lekernelso I'm a little dubious when I see programming language talks from people who enjoy Java :) that's just a superficial first reaction of course13:03
terpstrai have never liked java13:41
terpstrabut i'm not a bigot either :-P13:41
lekernelgrmbl. recording v4l video sources is amazingly complicated14:58
lekernelthe GUI programs are riddled with bugs and the command line is a mess14:58
rohlekernel: well.. i simply have the pov: 'my life is interresting enough to be bored by java' ;)17:56
rohabout v4l, make sure you read recent specs, not v4l1 from the stoneages.... v4l2 cleaned some things up and added compressed video formats17:57
lekernelwell, I finally got it to work, with a multi-line gstreamer command ...17:58
roh;)17:58
rohyeah. but in the end it IS kinda lots of details neccessary17:58
lekernelnow I understand a bit better why so many artists have Macs :-)17:59
rohthat doesnt help much ;) believe me.. i work in a house full of artists17:59
lekernelat least connecting a TV card and capturing a video file (including synchronized audio) works out of the box, no?18:00
lekernelwithout kilometer-long commands, GUI programs crashing, etc.18:00
rohno.18:00
rohonly if you buy a expensive 'made for mac' product. which is like .. ever 100st tv grabber18:00
rohso basically you buy more support upfront (if you get it or not) .. the products IS more expensive than the 99 other grabbes which work with win32 and linux18:02
roheh are18:02
lekernelyou have to take into account your time investment, I have wasted some 3 hours already on this18:02
rohlekernel: also.. mac products only do ONE usecase.18:03
rohif you try something else you are completely on your own, like on win32 or linux.18:03
rohmy guess is: you try somthing where there is no mac product18:03
rohafter all.. who does videocapturing nowadays? its all digital or has hw compressors18:04
rohonly geeks and professionals (who know what they are doing and use professional equipment)18:04
lekernelI wouldn't expect a DV/Firewire camera to work any better on Linux :-)18:05
rohheh.. you would be surprised18:05
rohi tried getting one to work with some win32 tool from adobe once... didnt work18:05
lekernelthe mess I've been through is mostly because of userspace bugs and shortcomings18:06
rohplugged it into a linux pc and installed kino, klicked 'connect' and i could remore control and copy stuff of the tape and back like i wished immediately18:06
rohsure.. there are expensive mac tools i guess who do that. but i dont have them, i dont want to pay for them and i for sure do not want to select tools by vendors ideologic noncompatibilites anymore.18:07
rohlekernel: heh. did you write up which ones? blog about such stuff (in a constructive manner).. or write up bugreports. atleast we can help make it better18:08
mwallelekernel: will the dvi out use the IOs which are currently available at the expansion headers?18:10
lekernelmwalle, probably not, we need those special I/Os that support TMDS and they're on a different bank IIRC18:11
mwalleTMDS? differential ios?18:11
lekernelyes18:11
lekernelfor DVI-D18:11
mwallei guess they are unrouted on rc0 :)18:11
lekernelthey're unrouted on all boards18:12
rohnice. sure you can use them without line drivers?18:12
lekernelroh, seems so18:12
rohwe should do some tests to make sure before rc418:13
lekernelseems pretty difficult as those pins are buried under the BGA :)18:13
rohin the end... people connect really long cables with a lot of capacitive load to that18:13
lekernelwe'll just check datasheets18:13
rohhm.. do you have a spartan develboard which has them routed?18:13
lekernelno18:13
rohdo you know of one? maybe i can borrow the right board18:14
lekernelI don't even have any screen that supports DVI or HDMI18:14
stekernroh: I've got a (spartan6) devboard with and without line drivers, a guy with a similar board did some tests comparing them, he didn't notice any big difference18:14
lekernelthere you go :) thanks stekern18:14
lekernelstekern, got the schematics of the devboard without the line drivers?18:18
stekernlekernel: sure, wait I'll dig them up18:18
stekernmeanwhile, here is the post where he is speaking about his test: http://rubidium.dyndns.org/pipermail/fpga-synth/2011-April/001667.html18:19
stekernschematic: http://www.digilentinc.com/Data/Products/ATLYS/Atlys_C2_sch.pdf18:20
lekernelthx18:21
rohstekern: thanks18:22
lekernelso this board has two HDMI outputs, one with line driver and one without?18:22
rohi was just a bit cautious... i lost multiple graphicscards to bad drivers18:22
lekerneldrivers?18:22
rohsome ati, basically all matrox cards18:22
lekernelyou mean the driver inside the graphics card got damaged?18:23
rohline drivers on dvi get worse over time and fail/limit bandwith18:23
rohinside the asic18:23
stekernactually, I think it has three, 2 with line drivers and one without. But I might remember wrong18:23
lekernelstekern, there's one input too18:23
stekernI've only tested the output with driver18:23
rohit starts slow with 'no 1920x1600 on high refresh anymore' .. and in the end you can drive vga through 20cm of cable but it fails to sync on 120cm18:23
lekernelmh, actually the unbuffered one is called "PMODA"... what's that?18:24
stekernah, yeah, that's how it was 2 line in and 2 line out18:24
stekernPMODA is digilents extension "standard", there is a hdmi connector in parallell with that18:24
lekernelhttp://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/application_notes/xapp495_S6TMDS_Video_Interface.pdf18:25
lekernel"use of the low-cost TMDS buffer TMDS141 from Texas Instruments to offer additional signal clean-up and ESD protection up to 6 kV"18:26
lekerneland TMDS output is only available in banks 0 and 218:28
lekernelwith VCCO=3.3V...18:32
lekernelon M1 we have plenty of suitable I/Os available in bank 218:33
lekernelunfortunately they're on the opposite side of the BGA, so there can be slight routing difficulties18:36
lekernelbank 0 is potentially easier to route, but there's only one I/O left there18:47
lekernelhmm... are the 50 ohm series resistors necessary?19:59
wpwrakhmm, http://rubidium.dyndns.org/pipermail/fpga-synth/2011-April/001667.html only talks about frequency but not about cable length20:49
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