#milkymist IRC log for Monday, 2011-10-10

n0carrierhey, guys02:05
n0carrierhow can i read PDF's on the MM?02:05
kristianpaulthere is a flicernoise image with PDF support, but dunno how update to it02:06
Action: kristianpaul looks at xiangfu 02:06
n0carrieryeah, saw it in a screenshot online02:07
n0carrierwas curious02:07
xiangfun0carrier, needs re-build flickernoise.02:07
kristianpaulIs not the fasted read (last time i tested, time ago..), but i think you can give  a try and drop some comments, i'm aware that lots libraries had changed02:08
n0carrierahh, OK!02:08
kristianpaulxiangfu: i dont think n0carrier want re-build FN from scracht did he? :-)02:08
kristianpauloh, ok, i tought i was avaliable as alternative image or something02:08
xiangfun0carrier, I can re-build it but I am not recommend use it.02:08
n0carrierthats fine, if its not implemented, i can wait :)02:09
kristianpaulit is, but well, as xiangfu saids :)02:09
kristianpaullets call it Beta feature :-)02:09
xiangfun0carrier, why you want read pdf in M1. just want understand (I am building the PDF verison now)02:11
n0carrierbecause i dont have a lot of desk space, so i was thinking of converting some of the milkdrop and MM documents to PDF02:12
n0carrierto read in a window, while i am working on new patches02:12
n0carrierso i dont have to print them02:12
kristianpaulxiangfu: i tried when i was just ready to use M1 like presentatio device, i think rejon was asking about that too earlier02:12
n0carrieror have my laptop open :)02:12
kristianpaulor buy an e-reader ? :-)02:12
kristianpauli mean , not buy it and use M102:13
kristianpaulof course02:13
wolfsprauln0carrier: bottom line I think we should say PDF support on M1 doesn't work right now, don't go in that direction right now02:14
wolfspraulI would not even have released that image, it's misleading :-)02:14
wolfspraulthe screenshot I mean02:14
wolfspraulwe were just happy that it did work at all, to make a screenshot...02:15
n0carrierlet me know if you need video, as i have a firewire capture card02:18
kristianpauloh :-)02:18
xiangfun0carrier, you mean capture VGA?02:18
n0carrierbecause before i purchased, i only saw screenshots and bad videos online02:19
n0carrierbut i had faith :)02:19
n0carrierperhaps others may want to see VGA video02:19
kristianpauln0carrier: so you already sample M1 VGA out in you card, and improves quality a lot?02:20
n0carrieri am uploading a video now, of a patch i made02:20
n0carrieryou can take a look at the quality02:20
n0carrier(its compressed, but would be OK for the web)02:20
xiangfun0carrier, great. I have to use VGA--> S-video --> usb to capture the m1. that quality is bad.02:22
n0carrierOK, let's see if this one will look OK for you02:23
n0carrieri'll share a link in a moment02:23
n0carrierwhen its done uploading02:23
kristianpaulso you bought our M1 been afraid os a bad quality VGA out?02:24
kristianpauland your mind changed now? :-)02:24
kristianpaulM1 is fitting your needs? i saw half your patches worked, is that good?02:25
n0carrierno, i knew the quality would be OK!02:25
kristianpaulah :-)02:25
n0carrierbut the only videos i saw were taped from TV02:25
n0carriernot direct out02:25
kristianpaulsure sure02:25
n0carrierthere is one of a patch i'm working on02:25
xiangfun0carrier, as wolfgang said. I think I better not send the pdf version image to you for less confuse.02:26
n0carrierno problem :)02:26
xiangfun0carrier, BTW there is a milkymist youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/xiangfuliu?feature=mhee02:26
xiangfun0carrier, you can send the original video to en.qi-hardware.com I will upload them to youtube.02:27
kristianpaulhow big is uncompressed?02:27
n0carrierahh, this is just a test02:27
n0carrieri deleted the original02:27
n0carrierwhen its finished, i'll re-record and send a better version02:27
rejonkristianpaul, yes, we need image and pdf support ASAP on m102:29
xiangfuwith PDF the boot is slow. because we have to compress the flickernoise bin and un-compress under m1.02:33
kristianpaulah, yup02:33
wolfsprauln0carrier: can you license your videos under a free license like cc0, cc-by, public domain, etc?02:34
wolfspraulanything I can reuse? :-)02:34
wolfspraulif you say 'yes' here that's enough for me02:34
wolfspraulwe are in dire need of better videos02:35
xiangfuand the compress flickernoise have to flashed by jtag.02:38
wolfspraulxiangfu: please let's simplify this and not send people into a dead-end road02:39
wolfspraulPDF on M1 does not work02:40
wolfspraulthat's the message, and done02:40
wolfspraulwe know it would be a nice feature, but it's grouped together with hundreds (literally) equally nice features, and with our limited resources we don't know when we get to really making it work02:40
wolfspraulI think support for still images is more important, for example02:41
wolfsprauland I could go on list a lot of other 'more important' features that most people would agree with02:41
wolfspraulPDF will come in due time, but not now, imho02:41
n0carrierwolf: sure, all the videos i upload will be free, whatever you like02:41
wolfspraulpublic domain02:42
wolfspraulthe best02:42
wolfspraulI'm tired of this copyright waste of time02:42
n0carrierhaha of course02:42
xiangfuwolfspraul, (PDF) ok.02:43
wolfspraulah yes, just lookgin at the .mov n0carrier linked to earlier - very nice!02:44
wolfsprauldoes it have sound? can't hear anything right now (may be my noisy starbucks background though)02:45
xiangfuand cool patch. we should include it in next release.02:45
wpwrakwolfspraul: tried of fine print ? here's a license for you: http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/02:45
xiangfuno sound here. like mute02:46
wpwrakno sound here either. unless the audio track is Free too, that may be for the better, though02:47
kristianpaulwpwrak: cc0 sounds nice, why more licenses?02:47
wolfspraulno fine print, but I discover the beauty of public domain02:47
wolfspraulno more FUD from lawyers that try to tell us public domain is "not allowed" or "automatically whatever" :-)02:47
wolfspraulpublic domain is exactly what it says, in the public domain, and done02:48
wolfspraulfocus on people02:48
wolfspraulkristianpaul: yes, cc0 :-)02:48
wolfspraulor just nothing, public domain02:48
wolfspraulsounds scary? it's not!02:48
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes, good license! thanks!02:49
wpwrakthe public domain doesn't exist in the US style everywhere. some countries even have a public domain that is actually for-pay (to a government-endorsed entity)02:50
wolfspraulya ya ya02:50
kristianpaulcc0 should solve that problem last time i heard02:50
wpwrakyup, cc0 or WTF may work02:51
wolfspraulfrom a Chinese perspective (and I'm sitting in the center of Beijing here), "public domain does not exist" is just silly02:51
wolfsprauleven great minds can be distracted sometimes :-)02:52
wpwrakthe problem with a missing or corrupted public domain is also that, if you die or get disowned without a previous correct license, the new owner may go after the users of your stuff. very nasty.02:52
wolfspraulat least the air we breathe is still public domain, I guess02:52
wolfspraulbut nasty people can and always will do nasty things anyway, license be damned02:52
wpwrakwell yes, but you don't have to give them now weapons :)02:53
wolfsprauljust declare cc0 'illegal', retroactively02:53
kristianpaulyeah, people is the not licenses anyway..02:53
wolfspraulcannot be done? ha ha02:53
wpwrakwell, it's a little harder02:53
wolfspraulI give them no weapons at all, it's all virtual02:53
kristianpaulis the problem**02:53
wolfspraulI breathe some more free Chinese air now02:53
wolfspraulprison free02:53
wpwrak(air) no anti-pollution laws ? :)02:53
wolfspraulfreely censored02:53
kristianpaulfree and poluted ;-)02:54
wolfspraulso the free people can enjoy their cheap toys02:54
xiangfuI just got the usb-midi device and connect it to my m1.04:05
wpwrakthe M1 has a usb-midi stack ? wow !04:33
sb0wolfspraul, PDF support works. it's just slow.06:29
xiangfuso... it not ready for ender users :D06:31
wolfspraulmaybe I have a different definition of 'works'06:32
wolfspraulin my definition, PDF support is about as far from 'works' as it can be06:33
wolfspraul(as of today)06:33
wolfspraulto start with, it's not included in the units we ship06:33
sb0n0carri3r, cool patch :)06:33
wolfspraulit cannot be upgraded over web update06:33
wolfspraula user who would want to use it would have to compile sources from scratch06:33
wolfspraulhe or she would have to use jtag to install it06:34
wolfspraulafter that booting would be so slow that a real user who would even make it to this point might very well remove it again after a while06:34
wolfsprauland then we would need to find out about the actual depth of PDF support, i.e. whether typical PDFs people think they can now open would actually open06:35
wolfspraulPDFs can be very resource intensive06:35
wolfspraulthe good news is - I don't think PDF support is a critical feature at the top of our priority lists, at least not on mine06:35
wolfspraulso it doesn't matter that much that they don't work, today. and some proof-of-concept, good enough for a demo, is already working :-)06:36
wolfspraulbut towards normal users, we are far better off just saying "no PDF" than getting them into this right now06:36
ALMTEMtemI want to get a job07:24
ALMTEMtemIn this company07:25
ALMTEMtemCan you help me07:26
ALMTEMtemFrom any country you07:29
sb0what kind of job?07:29
rejonwhat do you do?07:30
rejonhave you contributed to the project yet?07:30
rejoni'm from usa and china07:30
rejoni'm american-chinese07:30
ALMTEMtemI'm from Syria and I have a college degree07:31
rejonare you friends with bassel?07:31
rejonwhere do you live?07:31
rejoni have a college degree, but i wish i didn't spend all that time in school07:32
rejonhow did you hear about the project ALMTEMtem ?07:32
ALMTEMtem By accident07:33
rejonwhat city do you live in in syria?07:34
ALMTEMtemin der al zor07:35
rejonall our operations are run through bassel safadi in damascus07:36
rejonyou can learn more about our hackerspace here: http://aikilab.org07:36
rejonand email info@aikilab.org for more info07:36
rejonof course, the government there has made it hard to do anything07:36
rejonsoooo, the space is currently no more...its roaming now :)07:36
rejonALMTEMtem, what can you hack on?07:38
rejonyou should buy a http://milkymist.org first07:38
rejonwe can ship it to lebanon07:38
rejonshit http://www.google.com/search?q=g+der+al+zor07:39
rejonhere? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_ez-Zor07:41
ALMTEMtemWhat is your project, but control07:48
ALMTEMtemIn Deir Al-Zour07:49
rejonthis project is http://milkymist.org07:52
ALMTEMtemCan I get a job07:54
rejonemail me your resume and everything07:55
rejonbut i would encourage you to learn about the project first07:56
ALMTEMtemDo you give me a quick explanation07:57
ALMTEMtemI now use a mobile phone I can not certify the project fell Government banned the services Inter Nate almost a year08:01
rejonits a successful project08:02
ALMTEMtemWhat is your business you are in the project08:05
ALMTEMtemCan you tell me08:07
sb0ALMTEMtem, do you have an idea what Milkymist is about?08:07
sb0well, so read up first, then talk08:08
ALMTEMtemI can not log in through Alkambotr08:10
sb0there's no login08:11
ALMTEMtem Properly confined to service Inter Nate irc client08:13
rejonyah, ALMTEMtem email me...08:16
rejontalk later08:16
rejonALMTEMtem, i understand your sitatuion08:16
ALMTEMtemThis is your08:19
ALMTEMtemThis is my preferred to send me the Arabic language through the use Cockle because messages are monitored by the English government08:22
ALMTEMtemDid not you tell me your name!08:24
ALMTEMtemTo lay08:27
rejoni'm jon phillips08:28
rejoni can't enter syria for 5 years probably08:28
ALMTEMtem¤[10:52:14] <meeting> <ALMTEMtem-en> [10:49:11] G0' 'DE41H9 GH  http://milkymist.org08:28
ALMTEMtemYou are a Syrian08:30
sb0ALMTEMtem, as far as I know you are the only Syrian here08:31
rejonI'm not syrian, I just have syrian brothers08:32
ALMTEMtemAre there any Arabs here08:33
ALMTEMtemYou are my brothers and thank you08:35
ALMTEMtemTo lay08:38
rejonwe should get our milkymist pages linked up to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mico3209:01
sb0rejon, sure, go ahead :)09:07
sb0I already linked it to a few other pages ...09:07
rejonwe'll see if i get to it b4 ff7 crashes09:08
rejonok sb0 added quick lines09:14
rejonusing fpga09:52
rejonwpwrak, wolfspraul sb009:52
mwalleÄÿ¿/buffer 710:05
Last message repeated 1 time(s).10:06
mwallelol :)10:06
wpwrakrejon: can't enter syria for 5 years ? have you been a bad boy ? :-)11:14
Action: wpwrak likes his now auto-correcting torture script. already hit two problems while i slept. i love to get things done in my sleep :)11:19
Action: sb0 is happily surprised with ICALEPCS. a lot of people there knew about Milkymist.11:42
wpwrakwonderful. how did they like your ideas about Free tools ?11:45
sb0they liked the presentation a lot... and I got several contacts. I don't expect them to jump immediately into doing it, but let's see :)11:47
wpwrakvery good :)11:47
wpwrakhow were the presentations about EDA systems, gEDA and KiCad ? and how were the reactions to them ?11:48
sb0there was a good talk by Tomasz about the current limitations of free EDA tools11:48
sb0they (= multiple people at CERN) see improving them as a priority11:49
sb0they'd probably focus on KiCad11:49
wpwrakyes, i saw his list. very good items.11:49
sb0ah, and I mentioned your schhist too :)11:49
wpwrak(kicad) good. how was the kicad talk ?11:49
wpwrakgreat, thanks ! ;-)11:49
sb0interesting, seems it's a 'progressist' project, which is what I like :)11:50
sb0btw, there were 3 KiCad devs in the room11:51
wpwrakah, interesting. jean-pierre, dick, and who was the 3rd ?11:51
sb0hm, I don't remember11:51
wpwrakand what's a "progressist" project ? ;-)11:51
sb0opposite of conservative11:52
wpwrak(3rd) let's wait for the debriefing on the kicad list then :)11:52
wpwrakheh. could actually be a bit more progressive. well, or maybe not. too aggressive changes at the core are no fun at the periphery11:53
sb0e.g. jumping into new features, valuing external contributions (instead of being a PITA for newcomers), etc.11:53
wpwrakhmm, partially true. but the biggest structural problem of kicad is that the core developers have day jobs and probably families. so they're relatively slow to develop or also integrate larger features. this creates a speed incompatibility with people who need something for an on-going project, who will just happily work 100% on that until it's done.11:59
wpwraka solution for this is what we do: tread kicad as a building block of many and build external tools12:00
wpwraka problem this solution creates: usually supports only one platform, in our case linux12:01
sb0there are like 600 commits a day (according to the talk), this doesn't seem that slow12:02
sb0ofc they didn't mention the contents of those commits12:02
wpwrak600 seems incredibly high. i could believe there was maybe one day with 600 commits (reformatting or such). but let's check ...12:05
sb0sorry, a year12:05
sb0my fingers slipped12:05
wpwrakah, okay ;-)12:05
wpwrakyes, 2.5 orders of magnitude less. that makes more sense ;-)12:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: how much does the jtag board add to the cost of the M1 ? (percentage)16:36
mwallelarsc: how is that dumpinfo target working in openwrt?18:39
larscmwalle: i don't even know what that is18:39
mwallemh ok, its defined in include/target.mk18:40
larscah, for to generate the package description18:40
larscwhat exactly do you want to know?18:41
mwallewhy my config/profile-lsxl isnt working18:41
mwalleok i think i have an outdated .config18:43
larscyou should get an warning if it is outdated18:44
mwallelarsc: btw do you happen to know a target which has the kernel in some filesystem image?18:45
larscx86 maybe18:46
larscthere is at least a script which generates a kernel.ext218:48
mwallelarsc: ah thx18:52
wolfspraulwpwrak: hard to say. as always the main cost was in the pcb/smt/testing overhead22:29
wolfsprauljtag-serial board costs 20-30 USD including pcb & smt, I think22:29
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