#milkymist IRC log for Friday, 2011-10-07

sb0unimportant detail, focus on publicity first00:00
sb0which includes communication, e.g. better videos00:00
wolfsprauldo you see any problem if M1 would boot directly to rendering, bypassing the standby state?00:02
sb0getting the sw poweroff to work again might be a bit messy00:03
wpwrakdeath of the standby state on connecting power would have my blessing ;-)00:03
wolfspraulthen for simplicity (if it's difficult), I would just remove sw poweroff entirely00:05
wpwrak(sw power off) start in FN, stop the clocks (or as many as you can), and make the middle button trigger a reconfiguration ?00:05
wolfspraulthe standby state needs about 2W?00:06
wolfspraulstandby needs 2W, full operation 5W00:06
wolfspraulso standby needs 40% of full operation00:06
wpwrakpretty hungry for a standby00:06
sb0I don't know, and it's maybe possible to optimize further00:06
wolfspraulI don't think standby is optimized for power consumption00:06
wolfspraulI think it's better to remove that state altogether.00:07
sb0no, it's optimized for minimal development time to make this project feasible at all00:07
wolfspraulyes. but I think we can remove it, well, I am trying to think through the downsides.00:07
wolfspraulthe only downside I can see is that if M1 is in a fixed location somewhere, and there is a loss of power, it will end up consuming 5W instead of 2W when power comes back00:08
sb0then how do we 1. boot in rescue 2. make sure the YAFFS write cache is flushed when power is cut ?00:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: funny that you notice now that it's inconvenient. what happened ? :)00:08
wolfspraulbut you could make the same argument that after a power loss it should come back to its old state00:08
wolfspraulwpwrak: I'm just thinking about the product, one by one. And this realization has emerged recently :-)00:08
wpwraksb0: (boot in rescue) you can still sample the buttons. so boot-to-rescue becomes connect power while pressing a button00:09
wolfspraulthose little things are easily dismissed because there are so many, but then some may be significant to regular users. I believe this one is.00:09
wpwraksb0: (or force a sw reboot while holding the button)00:09
wpwrakyes, i think the standby is confusing. also because there's no clearly marked big "power" button. of course, it's something you learn but i wouldn't want to man the support hotline when the next batch of a million M1 ships ;-)00:11
wpwrakah, and how do people normally adjust the audio sensitivity ? is this on the remote control ? (i don't have one)00:14
wpwraklast night, i was demoing my M1 to miriam and rafa, and it was really awkward to turn the audio volume all the way up or down to get proper effects while balancing this on the TV, so that the music would stay in the volume that's not too low but also not too high00:17
wolfsprauli can see that [audio sensitivity]00:19
wolfspraulI'm not even there yet, I think there are many small details that can be polished, but that requires real-life use and feedback, which starts now...00:19
wolfspraulI guess the best would be if m1 software could auto-detect the sensitivity? or is that hard? don't know00:20
wolfspraulbut for the standby state, I didn't hear any arguments why removing it would be bad, so that's good00:21
wolfspraulmaybe removing it is what we should do00:21
wpwrak(auto level) yes, i also thought of that. not sure how good an automated level tracker would work, but it would be worth a try. we need more developers ! ;-)00:24
wpwrak(removing standby) not so quick :) you still want some quiescent state in which is is safe to power down (without NOR corruption). so far, there is weak evidence that the standby state does give us this (and no evidence to the contrary)00:25
wpwraksomething else that would be good to have is a video example for each effect, showing what it looks like with properly tuned inputs. some effects change their character dramatically depending on whether you hit or miss the right range (both for the audio level and the video input)00:28
wolfspraulyes I know00:29
wolfspraulwe need to make the sudden removal of DC power 100% safe anyway, that's a separate bugfix00:31
wolfspraulthat won't hold me back from removing the standby state if we believe it's a nuisance00:31
wolfspraulof course we can have some software power-off if that makes us feel better, but it's really for us only because users will simply remove the DC jack and done00:32
wolfsprauland if the unit doesn't work anymore (nor corruption), they will either give up ("shit product"), or they will find a technically sophisticated friend to reflash, or they ship it back to some place we arrange for reflashing00:32
wolfspraulthere is not much we can do to prevent this sequence of events, short of not selling anything :-)00:33
wpwrakyes, but for m1rc3 devices, we may need this work-around forever00:33
wolfspraulnah that's not how I look at it00:33
wpwrak(reflash) recovery should do the trick, no ?00:33
wolfspraulyou mean recovery and then web update/00:34
wolfspraulyes, should00:34
wolfspraulhave you tried that path yet? I still haven't, too many todo items...00:34
wpwrakno, i haven't tried ether at all so far00:35
wolfspraulI just take for granted that it works right now, if we run into such a case we will find out.00:35
wolfspraulI think nor corruption is rare, even for DC jack removal00:35
wpwrakone in 500 if my tests are any indicator :)00:35
wolfsprauleven with locking?00:35
wpwrakah, should be less with that. but i don't trust my data on this yet.00:36
wolfspraulyes I know, so we are on the same page00:36
wolfspraulI think with the locking workaroudn we are in the thousands00:36
wolfspraulthat's what Adam's lesser and manually retrieved numbers suggest00:37
wolfspraulso anyway, to me the removal of standby mode and fixing the nor corruption are two separate things00:37
wolfspraulif we believe standby should go, I wouldn't delay that because of the nor corruption00:37
wolfspraulnor is too rare to matter right now00:38
wpwrak(locking) possibly tens of thousands even00:38
wolfsprauland we already have a number of good ideas for rc4 which are being verified, so the absolute number of m1 with nor problem is also constant and small00:38
wolfspraulyes so like I said - no connection to removal of standby imo. plus I think the user will always use the same way to turn off m1 anyway, which is to remove the DC cable.00:39
wolfspraulthey are unrelated00:39
wolfspraulChristopher Adams used m1 last night in Taipei, and said people loved it00:40
wolfspraulat some insomnia event or so, need to see whether there are pics00:40
wpwrak(real life use) excellent !00:41
wolfspraulhe even bought it and picked up from Adam getting to know him, all great00:41
wpwrakwe need more of this :)00:43
wpwrakhow much time did he have to familiarize himself with the device ?00:43
wolfspraulI'm thinking how we give m1 buyers a way to better connect/followup with people who see it running and say 'cool'00:43
wolfspraulhe saw Sebastien using it in Warsaw00:44
wolfspraulmaybe we give them a bunch of stickers?00:44
wolfspraulright now I include 2 in each box00:44
wolfspraulor we say "second unit 30% off" to encourage some kind of group buying?00:45
wpwrak(stickers) maybe make it 5 or ten and put them in an envelope saying "spread the word !". otherwise, people may simply not know what to do with them and throw them away00:46
wolfspraulwpwrak: how do you like the idea of giving someone a discount for ordering a second unit?01:02
wolfspraulsomehow I like it, but too bad we don't have Steve to think these things through. he's the master :-)01:02
wolfspraulit will bring people and users together, it gives an incentive to spread the word01:02
wpwrakhmm, it would be a quantity discount for group purchases01:04
wpwraknot sure if people would really ask someone else to buy an M1 for them to benefit from those 30%01:04
wpwraki mean, some will of course. but it may not be a lot. and some may end up pestering M1-owning VJs01:05
wolfspraulsure but that's the idea :-)01:09
wpwrakhmm :)01:10
wpwrakso, with this discount in place, if you buy 2n M1, how much would you pay ? USD n*(500+500*0.7), USD 500+(2n-1)*500*0.7, or USD 500*0.7+(2n-1)*500 ?01:16
wpwrakalso, 30% may be too much. it should show appreciation but also not devalue the full-price purchases of others. maybe 20%, giving you a nice USD 400.01:17
wolfspraulmy idea was 500+350=85001:23
wolfspraulbut it's not really thought through01:24
ThihiI think what wpwrak says makes a lot of sense.01:24
wolfspraulthat is often the case :-)01:28
wolfspraulwhich argument you mean? you mean 20% instead of 30% ?01:28
wolfspraulI will not do any of this right now, just thinking really01:28
wolfspraulas wpwrak pointed out this needs careful consideration about value etc.01:29
wpwrak;-) so it would apply to every other M1 ? as opposed to just the 2nd or all after the first ?01:29
ThihiWell, I think any big discount on a second unit will certainly devalue the full-price purchases.01:29
wolfspraulfor a long time, Kellog Cornflakes gave you a free booklet or comic or so when you bought 2 packs of cornflakes instead of 1 :-)01:29
ThihiI'm not sure what percentage fits the bill.01:29
wolfspraulI haven't thought it through for n > 201:29
ThihiBut 30% does seem high.01:29
ThihiMaybe even 15% would be an incentive?01:30
wolfspraulmy thinking started with someone using the m1, and people liking it01:30
wolfspraulthen what?01:30
wolfspraulright now it stops there01:30
wolfspraulI don't think any of those people liking it will even read about it on the web, let alone buy one01:30
wolfspraulfirst idea - how readable is the "milkymist.org" text on the top acrylic in a typical use environment?01:33
wolfspraulI don't know01:33
wolfspraulshould we point to twitter more? twitter.com/milkymistvj01:33
wolfspraulI can imagine someone who has his smartphone with him maybe to follow milkymistvj right there, i.e. to take his smartphone out and add milkymistvj to his follow list01:34
wpwrakif they don't know about it, they also won't know about the discount :)01:34
wolfspraulwait, one by one01:34
wolfspraulthe problem I am trying to fix is how to convert people who see an m1 in action and 'like it' to something more01:34
wolfspraulwhatever that is01:34
wolfspraulmaybe at least to read about milkymist on the web01:35
wolfspraulto remember the 'milkymist' name01:35
wolfspraulto tell their friends about 'milkymist'01:35
wolfsprauland so on01:35
wpwrakinclude it in the show ? :)01:35
wolfspraulright now it stops there01:35
wolfspraulyes, possible01:35
wolfspraulyou mean to just leave 'milkymist' standing somewhere01:35
wolfspraulmaybe in a cool design way so it doesn't look too cheap01:35
wpwrakyeah. and make it optional. or have a dedicated patch that shows "milkymist". then vjs can choose whether they will include the advertizement01:36
wpwrakand the could also modify the ad patch, etc. remember the fan "commercials" for gta02 ? would be nice to have that sort of thing01:39
wolfspraulthe design of that 'ad' has to be so good that people naturally believe it's part of the performance01:46
wolfspraul(of course it must be easy to disable it still)01:46
ThihiWhatabout a splash effect when you start to use it? A la projectM.01:48
ThihiLike the first thing it shows when you start using it is the milkymist logo (is there one?) with some nice effect for some seconds.01:49
ThihiALthough I guess that wouldn't work in scenarios where the m1 is turned on first, and then the projector, which I guess is a typical usecase. :/01:50
wpwraknaw, it should show every once in a while01:55
ThihiYeah, I guess.01:55
wpwrakif you only show it at the beginning, nobody will pay attention.01:55
wpwrakthe next time it shows, they'll begin to realize that this may be something worth looking up. and then the next time, they will be ready to actually try to remember.01:55
wpwrakwell, unless the pills or the booze already kicked in :)01:56
ThihiNo need to remember. They'll just google it with their phones.02:00
ThihiThen they'll order ten while drunk and/or high.02:00
ThihiThen by the 20th time it shows that night, they'll be so pissed at the splash effect, they'll not only cancel the orders, they'll mail you some poo. :/02:03
wolfspraulok we need small practical steps02:17
wolfspraulembedding any form of Milkymist branding in the default performance is a good idea I think, whatever the easiest way is is good02:18
wolfspraulhas anybody seen these guys? http://www.lzxindustries.net/06:53
wolfspraulsb0: I have a question about the midi-to-usb adapter http://www.amazon.com/Cable-Converter-Music-Keyboard-Window/dp/B0017H4EBG13:26
wolfspraul(continuing from an email thread)13:27
wolfspraulin the email you wrote "This device is rather an adapter that converts plain MIDI to13:27
wolfspraulMIDI-over-USB, and not the other way around. So it will not work for13:27
wolfspraul"MIDI" controllers that only have a USB connection.13:27
wolfspraulI don't understand13:27
wolfspraulyou mean it's for midi-out only?13:27
wolfspraulthe pictures I see there show a USB connector on one side, and 2 midi connectors (in and out) on the other side13:28
wolfspraulwhat type of midi controller are you talking about for example?13:28
sb0some MIDI keyboards do not have MIDI, only USB slave13:29
sb0this USB port won't connect to the other USB slave of the device you propose13:29
wolfspraulah yes, it can only connect to a usb host, notebook I guess typically13:30
wolfspraulmaybe there are adapters that can go to a usb slave as well?13:31
wpwrakthose would be fairly exotic. but yes, maybe13:37
sb0never heard of those, but maybe13:37
wpwrakit's basically new-to-old vs. old-to-new. e.g., like a USB-to-centronic converter (which do exist) vs. a centronics-to-USB converter (which i have yet to see)13:38
wpwrakin each case, there can of course be very good reasons for staying with the "old"13:38
sb0grmbl. massive Parisian public transport failure, couldn't make it to the studio ...17:03
sb0and wasted almost 2 hours17:04
wpwraksb0: thunderstorm, like here ? made it to the computer shops and back home unscathed, though :)18:28
wpwrak(studio) that would have been for the high-quality demo videos ?18:28
sb0and no, just the poor general state of the Paris suburbs infrastructure... trains are breaking down all the time here (and they're very slow the rest of the time), it's crazy18:30
sb0it would have taken me about 4 hours to travel 20km, assuming the repairs went as planned18:31
sb0driving isn't an option, everything is crazy congested18:31
wpwrakwalking sounds like a viable alternative :) you can probably average > 4 km/h, even in a city :)18:32
sb0it's a serious problem here, no matter whether you drive or take the public transport, you're always fucked18:32
wpwrakso you moved fro mberlin to paris permanently ? or just visiting ?18:32
sb0sure not, I'm leaving tomorrow18:33
sb0this super crappy transport system far exceeds the limits of my patience, and it alone is a reason for me not to live in Paris18:33
wpwraki don't remember transport in paris is quite so horrible. maybe after having gotten used to buenos aires traffic, everything looks rather calm and orderly :)18:33
sb0it's the worst I know in Europe18:34
sb0well, within Paris it's decent. but the suburbs is awful.18:34
wpwrakah, i see. i didn't get out of the city much. well, only been there 3-4 times and just for a weekend or so.18:35
sb0basically, I had the choice between waiting >2 hours for trains (and potentially have problems on the way back) or >2 hours in traffic jams  - everything combined with >2 hours lateness at an appointment on a late Friday afternoon, of course18:43
sb0oh well...18:43
wpwrakyeah, not good18:43
kristianpaulbicycles even get fucked?18:49
wpwrakkristianpaul: don't give sebastien any ideas. we still need him ...18:53
kristianpaulok ..18:54
sb0bicycles are not very convenient on the remaining 2500km ...19:13
sb0but yes, I should probably get one in Paris anyway ... if I ever come back19:15
kristianpaulrent or something19:15
Action: wpwrak wonders if "or something" may be more the parisian style :)19:23
wpwrakyes ! USB-over-CAT5 link to guest room stablished !19:26
wpwraknow i can check the temperature without opening the door :)19:26
sb0for this incredible flash corruption bug? amazing :)19:28
kristianpaulfor dont moving out his chair i bet19:29
wpwrakyeah. resistance is futile :)19:29
kristianpaul18 °C?19:30
wpwraknext, i need to automate the status checking. looking at the LEDs every hour or so isn't so easy if the device is further away. of course, walking half a marathon distance a day may actually be healthy ...19:30
wpwrakthat BOOTSTS register looks promising for automated checking, though19:31
sb0btw, I wonder if there could be a register not cleared during reconfiguration that the standby bitstream could check to see if it should boot immediately or wait for middle button19:32
wpwraksb0: heh, great minds think alike :)19:32
sb0iirc there is a 'bitstream ID' register that can be set with ISE and read back19:33
wpwrakor maybe BOOTSTS could have a hint. it has an "IPROG" flag ...19:33
sb0if I hack the bitstreams to remove the 'write to bitstream ID' command, I could probably use it for this purpose19:33
sb0(assuming there is no hardwired reset of that register triggered during reconf)19:34
wpwrak(flag) that is, according to table 5-48 it doesn't. but page 127 says it does19:34
wpwrak(bitstream id) the usual way to handle such things is some "reset reason" register somewhere. BOOTSTS looks like a promising candidate for this. i'll know soonish :)19:35
wpwrakbut first a bit of non-electronics shopping ...19:37
GitHub151[llvm-lm32] jpbonn pushed 82 new commits to master: http://git.io/6nJw7Q21:59
GitHub151[llvm-lm32/master] Update InstCombine worklist after instruction transform is complete. - Jim Grosbach21:59
GitHub151[llvm-lm32/master] Check for the returns_twice attribute in callsFunctionThatReturnsTwice. This - Rafael Espindola21:59
GitHub151[llvm-lm32/master] Override TRI::getSubClassWithSubReg for X86. - Jakob Stoklund Olesen21:59
kristianpaulwpwrak: what temperature ranges do you plan to torture M1 with?22:28
wpwrakat the moment, ambient capped by air conditioning at ~18 C. so about 16-19 C22:30
wpwrakif this isn't cold enough, i'll take it to the fridge. my USB extension cable goes up to 30 m, which will be more than enough (only need about 20 m from office PC to fridge, i think)22:31
wpwrakyeah. meter says 19.1 m :)22:34
kristianpaulUSB cable up to 30m??? how is that posible?22:35
wpwrakit's one of those USB-over-UTP5 transceivers. amplifies the signal. not sure if the timing is 100% legit, but it works :)22:38
n0carri3revening all23:14
n0carri3rjust checking out the channel for the first time23:18
n0carri3rgot a milkymist a few days ago23:18
kristianpaulgreat !23:20
kristianpaulWellcome :-)23:20
wpwrakwelcome to the club ! ;-)23:20
n0carri3rthanks :)23:21
wpwrakor should i say "the avantgarde" ? :)23:21
kristianpaulnice word23:21
wpwrakn0carri3r: do you plan to use it to VJ in clubs ? or just play around ? or for hacking ?23:22
n0carri3ri'll be using it to VJ23:22
kristianpauln0carri3r: is ir working already for you?23:22
kristianpauloh !23:22
n0carri3rfor an event in philly next weekend, then in tokyo the following weekend! so i have a lot of practicing to do!23:23
n0carri3rphilly = philadlephia23:23
n0carri3ri haven't tried the IR, yet23:23
kristianpaulthere is a flickernoise handbook somewhere..23:23
kristianpaullet my find a link23:23
wpwrakwhee, you're going places ! :)23:23
n0carri3rwell, i've been looking at the WIP patch creation manual23:24
n0carri3rand some older milkdrop tutorials, that i think its based on23:24
kristianpaulah, good :)23:24
n0carri3rits very easy so far, but many things aren't documented, like motion vectors23:24
n0carri3rbut they're very easy to figure ot23:24
kristianpaulwhat are motion vectors?23:24
n0carri3rperhaps in the next update you should include a "blank" patch with everything included, but turned off / set to 023:25
n0carri3rmotion vector == the grid of 64 dots across or 48 dots high23:25
wpwrakkewl. if you can contribute some new patches, that would be very nice. currently, nobody seems to be doing much on that front.23:25
kristianpaulinteresting idea23:25
n0carri3rmotion vectors are used in the 8-bit starfield demo thats included23:25
n0carri3ryes, i'll contribute some new ones soon :)23:26
n0carri3ri can make a page on the wiki, perhaps23:26
wpwrakwhat would the "blank" patch do ? just show a black screen ?23:26
n0carri3ryes, just a blank page, but with all of the variables and everything typed out, so you can edit them23:26
kristianpaulit seems to mean that variables are declared but empty?23:26
wpwrakyes, that makes me wonder. ah, perhaps a skeleton for development.23:27
kristianpaulalso i was wondering the other days how to came with drawing pacthes23:27
n0carri3rthere is one included here, the beginning of this handbook: http://www.milkdrop.co.uk/guide.htm#variablesbasic23:27
kristianpaulpatches that draw**23:27
n0carri3rthat is a good milkdrop skeleton that could be modified and included23:27
kristianpaullike making some primitives move on screen, if posible?23:28
kristianpaul*if posible* :-)23:30
kristianpaulwith some equation hack, i just wonder and was afraid to ask sb0 ;)23:30
n0carri3roh, btw, is there a way to use a USB flash drive with the milkymist?23:39
n0carri3rthat is the one question i had!23:39
n0carri3ri want a way to copy patches back and forth if possible23:40
kristianpaulnot is not posible atm23:42
kristianpaulyou can plug your milkymist to the network and use a ftp client for transfer files23:43
n0carri3rahh i see23:45
n0carri3rthat makes sense23:46
n0carri3rwould i need a crossover cable? or just the included CAT5 cable to hook it up to my computer?23:47
n0carri3rbut it can be connected straight to my computer?23:47
kristianpaulmost recet ethernet controllers do the crossover alredy23:47
n0carri3rperfect, thanks :)23:47
n0carri3rby the way, i'm not sure in what way you're assosciated with the product23:48
n0carri3rbut the package and included materials are great23:48
n0carri3rit seems very well thought out and has everything you need23:48
kristianpaulyeah, that was wolfgang idea, you can say hi to him in few hrs i think23:48
n0carri3rah yes, we've been in touch via e-mai23:49
n0carri3rhe's been very helpeful23:49
kristianpaulso, you got the ftp client to work?23:56
n0carri3ri hooked up the wire23:56
n0carri3rtrying to figure out what the IP address is23:56
kristianpaulremenber IP/user and password must be set first using the flickenoise GUI23:57
kristianpaulyou also may need to set a IP in the same range to your computer23:57
n0carri3rok i'll give it a try23:57
kristianpaul n0carri3r i think you should set ip, if i remember correcly if looks ip automatically23:57
kristianpaulat least you may have a home router with ethernet ports? will make this process easy23:58
wpwrakit should look up the IP via DHCP. and you should be able to see it in the GUI.23:58
wpwrakdo you have a mouse connected to the M1 ?23:58
n0carri3ryes, i do23:58
n0carri3rbut i am hooking it up to my computer23:58
n0carri3ras my router is not easy to access here23:59
n0carri3ri want to connect directly23:59
wpwrakah, i see23:59
kristianpaulso definetelly you need se a IP in both M1 and computer23:59
wpwrakwhat operating system does your computer run ?23:59
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