#milkymist IRC log for Thursday, 2011-09-29

kristianpauldamn, i wrote mail and then the expected replies, can i use video clips from my memory :-/01:41
kristianpaulcan i do live coding?01:41
kristianpaulcan i do send text in live01:42
kristianpaulall patches looks the same??01:43
kristianpaulcool, she said i dint like the idea that modul8 es privative software so want to try new things :)01:46
kristianpaulbut shee admits is an excelent Vj software01:47
kristianpaullekernel: http://www.nullsoft.com/free/milkdrop broken and linke from http://milkymist.org/flickernoise.html02:00
wolfspraulhe04:57
wolfspraulso much fun04:57
wolfspraulthe Amazon Fire news was picked up by over 4000 news outfits yesterday!04:57
wolfspraulwhile the Milkymist One at theregister (hidden behind a cryptic headline) was picked up by *zero* :-)04:58
wolfspraulit's so bad it's actually funny again04:58
wolfspraultime to start contacting more reporters :-)04:59
wolfsprauldoes anybody know what happened to the Masala upload?04:59
wpwrakthe reg may be just too obscure. if you didn't know, would you even realize it's about a product launch ? :)05:50
wpwrakah, the latency argument is also coming under fire. comment by "Shades"05:52
wpwrakthe comment feature at "the reg" seems weird. replies to comments seem to pop up just in the middle of things, without a way to easily spot what you've already seen05:55
lekernelwolfspraul, no news from masala upload, I pinged them yesterday night again07:05
wolfspraulah ok07:09
wolfspraulI don't want to rush, just seeing whether I can help07:09
wolfspraullekernel: quick summary. the 'launch' yesterday went nowhere, at least from our selfish perspective07:10
wolfspraulit wasn't even a launch really, with the headline so obscure07:10
wolfspraulwe forget it and restart :-)07:10
wolfspraulit was still great that Bill posted the piece, it does give Milkymist another small piece of credibility07:11
wolfspraulI need to think more how we explain M1 from the perspective of someone who compares with a notebook07:11
wpwrakyeah, pretty much evaporated07:11
wpwraki would put more emphasis on integrated peripherals (e.g., if you load up a laptop with all the usb dongles, it'll look like medusa), and perhaps also on the extensibility due to being an FPGA07:13
wpwrake.g., that one can add special effect processors07:13
wolfspraulwe also need to know ourselves better still, I am optimistic I will take this on full power and then we see07:28
wolfspraulfor example this latency thing - 60 ms07:28
wolfspraulhow important is latency? need to ask a bit07:28
wolfspraulis 60 ms the best m1 can do, now and in the future? what is the latency of a powerful notebook system?07:29
wolfsprauland so on07:29
wolfspraulstill a bit weak on those simple questions, but one by one we get there07:29
wolfspraulmarketing is fun, tehre are a lot of people and use cases out there and we just need to get through to them and make our pitch07:30
wolfsprauljust yesterday's thing obviously didn't work :-)07:30
cdekikoo07:39
cdewolfspraul, I suggest porting lots of emulators to the M107:40
cdethen we will reach a very large segment of the hobbyist population07:40
wpwrakthere's a comment (by "Shades") claiming that a netbook is low latency, too. not sure if he refers just to audio buffering or total to-video latency, though07:40
wolfspraulcde: which emulators do you have in mind?07:40
wolfspraulwpwrak: yeah but that's just talk. we need to have hard data.07:40
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah, side-by-side comparisons would be best. show the world how badly the competition sucks :)07:41
wolfspraulfirst we need to understand how important latency really is07:42
wolfspraulthen how much it currently is on m1, how to measure07:42
wpwrak(yesterday) instead of a mighty firework, we got an odd-smelling fart :)07:42
wolfspraulthen whether there is room for optimization, or whether m1 has reached its max (which also depends on whether there is even value in driving this down further)07:42
wolfspraulha :)07:42
wolfspraulit's not that bad07:42
wolfspraulthere is an independent thinking editor who is willing to go out with his thoughts07:43
wolfspraulgive it some time07:43
wpwrak(importance) you could try watching a music video with mplayer, then tweak the A/V offset07:43
wolfspraulI am sure this is one of the least popular posts on theregister yesterday, Bill will get some heat for that...07:43
wolfspraulI am very happy he went with me through the process of understanding the product, and writing a post07:43
wolfspraulthat's all I can expect07:43
cdewolfspraul, all 8-bit machines, plus a couple 16-bit ones07:44
wolfspraulok can you give me your top-3 ?07:44
wpwrakyeah, it's just a pity that he put the focus way off the actual key message (i.e., the launch) - and got what he was focusing on wrong07:44
cdehmm the NES is n.1 I think07:45
cdethen the PS107:45
cdethen at least one portable console, the GBA comes to mind07:45
wpwrakcde: how would M1 be better suited for such emulators than, say, a netbook ?07:46
cdewell it's not beater suited. but still it's a cool example of the versatility of the HW07:46
cdethere is a huge community around emulators also07:47
wpwrakah, you want to emulate the hardware in the FPGA. i see.07:47
wpwrakthat's a bit harder. are there a lot of people in the emulator scene with the FPGA skills to do this ?07:47
stekernwpwrak: there are a lot of "emulation-soc's" out there07:48
cdewell there is a bunch if diverse stuff out on opencores, with varying licenses07:48
stekernminimig is one of the most famous07:48
stekern(i think)07:48
wpwrakkewl. how is the legal situation regarding software to run on them ? for which ones is sufficiently unencumbered stuff available ?07:49
wolfsprauldefinitely an interesting thought, emulators on m107:51
wolfsprauland yes, a very active scene I think07:51
stekernI guess the legal issues for software is the same as you would face running an emulator on the PC07:58
cdeone major point when writing an emulator in hardware is to provide cycle-precise instructions08:00
cdeit's quite a bit difficult although we could run the CPU at 4x the speed and compensate08:01
cdeobvisouly this tends to be more difficult for very recent consoles08:01
wpwrakstekern: yes. the question is is there's a choice of legal software. otherwise, we'd have to make a conscious choice of marketing M1 as a piracy device.08:10
cdeyes, it's a delicate issue :/08:18
wpwrakalso from a freedom point of view, it's not a very good investment of one's time. while the infrastructure would be Free, the software that breathes life into it isn't. better to write new Free software on the existing Free platform. that way, you get rid of the ball and chain on your leg and the handcuffs, too :)08:24
stekernwpwrak: I agree, but I don't think running free software on the emulators/clones is the driving force behind the retro computing communities though08:49
zumbihi09:04
zumbihttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/28/milkymist/09:04
lekernelok the masala videos are coming now09:40
lekernel.mts ... what format is that09:41
Action: lekernel feels the proprietary codec nightmare coming, after the file transfer nightmare09:42
lekernelah, no, mplayer groks it :)09:42
rejonah man so shit http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2011/09/29/improving-open-source-hardware-visual-diffs/11:12
rejonwpwrak, you should set them str811:12
wolfspraulrejon: seems nice! just they are building on top of geda not kicad, but both are good tools afaik11:22
wolfsprauland they haven't taken it as far yet as on the qi projects server, but they are clearly recognizing the significance11:22
wolfspraulcool stuff11:22
wolfspraulnext is brdhist (layout history :-))11:22
Thihiwolfspraul, did you get my bible of an email? :P11:24
Thihiwolfspraul, I'm sorry I wasn't feeling more succinct. ;P11:24
ThihiBut hey, why write two sentences when you can write a book.11:24
larscbecause you want people to read what you write ;)11:29
Thihi:)11:29
wolfspraulyes got it, thanks! give me some time11:40
ThihiYeah, sure, no prob.11:40
ThihiI just wanted to make sure it got to you.11:40
ThihiNo hurry with this project whatsoever.11:40
wpwrakrejon: cute :) looks a little unusable, but cute ;-)12:38
wpwrakstekern: (retro) yeah, that's why i'm a bit worried about linking this too heavily with what we do. of course, an open platform is a good platform for whatever you do, but as we've seen just in the recent M1 example, one wrong hint to the press and they draw you in an entirely different light12:40
wpwrakstekern: now just imagine "PS1 emulator" appeared somewhere among the list of existing or potential features ...12:41
wpwrakstekern: of course, such things are less of an issue once the device has a well-established reputation. but we're not there yet ...12:42
wolfspraulthe press writes whatever they like, and that is how it should be12:43
wolfsprauljust imagine you were a journalist, and really think it through :-)12:43
wolfspraulespecially if you work for a respected publishing house and are flooded with people every day who want to talk you into this or that, in many smart and not so smart ways12:44
wpwraksure. i'm just saying that something you consider an entirely peripheral aspect of your project may get blown out of proportion. also, misunderstandings are a constant risk. of course, as in any communication malfunction, the problem is on both ends12:49
wolfspraulbut that's the beauty of manking (sorry cannot make it smaller :-) What is peripheral to you may be central to someone else.12:54
wolfspraulthe context of each word can be dramatically different depending on people hugely diverse personal backgrounds12:54
wolfspraulso I say 'house' and mean a shabby barrack with leaking roof, you say 'house' and mean a beachfront villa with butler and swimming pool :-)12:55
wolfsprauls/manking/mankind/12:55
wolfspraulwe all know the whisper game where a group of people are whispering a simple sentence into each others ear in a row, the results even after 2-3 stops are hilarious12:57
ThihiWell, anyway, what's central to developers might not be central to the readers of any given publication.12:57
wolfspraulexactly12:57
wpwrakyeah, but the problem with mis-perceived centrality can be that the extrapolations that come from this go wrong, too12:57
wolfspraulthat's called life then12:57
wolfspraulthey don't go 'wrong', they go different ways12:57
wpwrake.g., you probably wouldn't want a lot of attention on the revolutionary business model that allows you to break even with only 40 kUSD of sales.12:58
wolfspraulI don't care about the secrecy. if the business would be sustainable one could hope to attract others to join and start themselves.12:59
wolfspraulbut of course that is not important to me right now in terms of getting the Milkymist message spread12:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: no, it's not about secrecy. it's about you not breaking even after 40 kUSD sales ;-)13:04
wolfspraulwell13:06
wolfspraulthat's true of course, but those subtleties are always lost in the messy news business13:06
wpwrakyeah, it's just unfortunate to have not just the usual "blur" that's inevitable, but a whole chain reaction. well, let's hope the next one goes better :)13:08
ThihiI wouldn't consider that important. If anything, it'll generate a bit of interest from people who might not otherwise even spare one look at MM1.13:08
ThihiSince unusual business models are interesting to loads of people, even if the business itself isn't.13:09
wpwrakThihi: i would hope readers interested in the economical side will notice that you're unlikely to break even with 40 kUSD of sales if you had a capital investment of 100 kUSD. that is, unless something major has happened with the currency. (e.g., invest in lira, get paid back in euro. but in such cases, the name of the currency usually changes, so you tend to notice :)13:11
Thihi:)13:11
wpwrakThihi: i'm just unhappy that the principal message (i.e., the launch) was a bit lost there. and instead a negative competence marker was put there. that may also reflect negatively on the project.13:12
ThihiHmmm, could be. Although I'm pretty sure that old saw about "any publicity is good publicity" stands true for projects as marginal as MM1.13:13
ThihiMarginal in the sense, that it's not something millions will buy.13:13
ThihiNot in the sense that it's marginal to make actually usable open hardware.13:13
ThihiBecause that shit is hot.13:13
Thihi:)13:13
wpwrak(any publicity) yeah, let's hope for the best ;-)13:14
wolfspraulit's not marginal13:16
wolfspraulbut we need to work on the story13:16
wolfspraulor rather multiple stories13:16
ThihiYeah.13:16
wolfspraulit's not marginal in the sense that if computing innovation moves back from the nation-sized corporation into the garage, that's a very inspiring development13:16
ThihiYeah.13:16
ThihiThat's really cool.13:16
wolfspraulboth in terms of business opportunities, and social significance13:16
ThihiI just ment marginal in the sense that there aren't many VJ's compared to people who are likely to buy big brand things.13:17
ThihiLike iPhones ;P13:17
wolfspraulwell one by one13:17
ThihiYes.13:17
wolfspraulwe are talking about stories someone may care about13:17
wolfspraulhere's a '21st century garage' project13:17
wolfspraulone angle13:17
wpwrakit'a marginal when you compare with other things in the news. the new kindle for instance. well, at least we might be able to beat the assange "autobiography" :)13:18
wpwrakmarginal .. in volume13:18
ThihiYes.13:18
ThihiBut the open hardware point is very intriguing.13:18
wolfspraulwhat stories do you think are interesting?13:20
wolfspraularound Milkymist13:20
wolfspraulsince you are a journalist :-)13:20
wolfspraulwhat interests people you feel comfortable writing for?13:21
ThihiIt always depends on the people you're writing to.13:21
wolfspraulsure so I ask about you and the readers you feel you have a connection with13:21
ThihiYeah, that's kinda hard to elaborate on, since MM1 is sort of unique amongst the topics I've covered. I've done open software articles a lot, but next to none about any open hardware projects. But I guess the whole idea of creating your own soac, and being able to use that in an open commercial product are interesting to the audience of Tietokone magazine, which is one of the two big (in the scale of Finland) publications I write for.13:23
ThihiThen I guess the whole "a nice shiny toy with pretty colors and wow it's kinda open source innit" is the angle for the more consumer and entertainment oriented MikroBitti.13:24
ThihiBut I still haven't really formulated anything about this except the idea, that I want to cover it in some way.13:25
wpwrakit's certainly something quite out of the ordinary. readers should find this interesting :)13:26
wolfspraulThihi: how about HDL / Verilog?13:41
wolfspraulfree software people love languages and comparing languages, no?13:41
wolfspraulc vs. c++13:41
wolfspraulperl vs python13:41
wolfspraulphp vs ruby13:42
wolfsprauland so on and so on13:42
wolfspraulmaybe Verilog is an angle that can lead to an interesting story13:42
wolfspraul"Verilog or opencl - what's better for making the most of parallelism?"13:43
wolfspraulsomething like that13:43
wolfspraulI don't know what exactly, but maybe something about HDL could interest free software devs13:44
wolfspraulthe verilog story could use examples and snippets from Milkymist13:45
wolfspraulThihi: another angle is graphics acceleration I think13:48
wolfspraulthe 2d/3d engines are the holy grail of big bad black boxes, no? for how long now? 10+ years?13:49
ThihiHmm, could be, but for example, neither of the mediums I write for would indulge in such geekery. I mean languages and examples. I mostly write for end users who are interested in what the thing in question can do, not why it can do it.13:49
wolfsprauland I dont' think it's getting better, overall. a lot of new 2d/3d acceleration stuff is being developed in proprietary blobs13:49
wolfspraulso with Milkymist there is a chance to change the game, and free software devs simply writing the dreaded hardware graphics acceleration themselves13:50
wolfspraulthen the problem of the closed driver solves itself :-)13:50
ThihiYeah.13:50
wolfspraulah ok, got it [no devs focus]13:50
wolfsprauljust speaking out some story angles, those 2 for developers, yes13:50
ThihiYeah, those would both fit Prosessori, which is another finnish magazine, but I don't really write much for them.13:51
ThihiBut it's a marginal publication anyway.13:51
ThihiSomething like 8000 readers. :)13:51
wolfspraulif that translates to 8 milkys sold, that's 10% of rc313:51
wolfspraulfor end users, I think you could talk about M1 as video art for dummies13:52
wolfspraulmy feeling is the current VJing solutions (modul8, resolume, quartz composer, vvvv) are happy in their professional VJing niche13:53
ThihiYes, I guess that's prolly what will happen, if we end up doing the article. With some sidenotes for people who are interested in the nuts and bolts, so they know where to get more information.13:53
wolfspraulthere's a lot of people running a bar/club and have this nice and shiny projector they bought mostly "just in case" but which is actually underused13:54
wolfspraulhookup the music you are playing already, connect to the unused projector, play with the remote a little, and you get something special and artsy into your place13:54
wolfspraul(the remote control part of the story doesn't work as of today :-) but software updates will surely fix that)13:55
ThihiYeah, and on top of clubs etc. there will be hobbyists that will get interested. Like people who throw private parties etc.13:55
wolfspraulyes13:55
ThihiI bet a lot of people who enjoy illicit chemical fun would really enjoy playing with MM1, whilst everything looks or sparkly and fun :P13:56
Thihis/or/all13:56
ThihiBut I guess there's no magazine that would publish an article written from that angle...13:56
ThihiMaybe High Times.13:56
Thihi;P13:56
wpwrakmaybe you've just discovered a market niche ;-)14:27
lekernelwolfspraul, what doesn't work with the remote control?14:34
lekernelthe only feature implemented on the remote control so far is patch switching, and it works14:35
lekernelgrmbl, in all the masala videos I got so far, we see no more than 1/3 of the screen :(15:00
wolfspraullekernel: ah, then it works better than I thought, my bad. I simply haven't gotten to trying the remote with rc3 yet.15:06
mwalleÄÿ¿/buffer 515:51
kristianpaul(unused projector) well, i guess you also want to save some lumens :)16:12
lekernelanyone wants to go to the Piksel festival in Norway?17:52
zer0her0me!17:53
zer0her0what's the piksel festival?17:53
lekernelwww.piksel.no17:53
zer0her0wish i had money to get there.17:54
lekernelwe can have a milkymist workshop there if someone wants to go17:54
lekerneloh, I went there in 2009 and they covered travel expenses... you'll need a M1 however17:54
zer0her0m1a1?17:54
lekernela1?17:55
zer0her0american rifle used during WW217:55
lekernel:)17:55
lekernelno, I meant a Milkymist One17:55
zer0her0ah i just re-discovered the M1, I haven't gotten one yet.17:55
kristianpauli always want to go, but too far :)18:59
kristianpaulbtw i'll try to setup a mini milkymist workshop, but there is a minimun of 16 hhrs to apply18:59
kristianpaulnow i wonder what to do in alll that time :)19:00
kristianpauls/try/trying19:00
kristianpaulalso there is the requirents, and jsut a single M1 ... well19:01
mumptaihi19:13
kristianpaulhello19:16
zer0her0holla19:16
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