#milkymist IRC log for Tuesday, 2011-09-27

--- Tue Sep 27 201100:00
wolfsprauldoes anybody know what software a typical VJ would use?00:42
wpwrakthe vj of the future: flickernoise !! ;-)00:44
wolfspraulyeah well00:46
wolfspraulin the meantime I need to answer questions from reporters such as "what does this compare to?" :-)00:46
wpwrakah, tricky. i'm afraid i don't know the answer to that ... but i couldn't let the opportunity slip by :)00:48
wpwrakthinking of it, you don't actually see too many vjs showing off their performance. quite often, they're somehow invisible. dunno whether they just politely cede the the spotlight to the dj and work from a dark corner or whether they just bring their pre-programmed macbook and go home00:50
kristianpauli bet is no just only one specific software01:44
wpwrakyeah, i kinda wonder whether it's a relatively small set or if there's a lot of variety. structurally, i would expect that the average vj doesn't have a lot of choices. but the programs may offer a large number of effects.02:35
wolfspraullekernel: what software does a typical (non-Milkymist) VJ use?08:26
lekernelmodul8, resolume, quartz composer08:29
lekernelsometimes processing, but less often than the others08:30
wolfspraulgreat, thanks!08:35
wolfspraulargh, he's gone again :-)10:37
wolfspraulnext question would have been how Milkymist One compares to Edirol CG-810:37
wpwrakhe's very volatile these days :)10:38
wpwrakthree more events left from the Great Milkymist World Tour. so i think he'll be busy for the next two weeks.10:40
wpwrakah, here he is :) wolfgang was wondering how M1 compares to Edirol CG-810:50
lekernelpossibility for low latency live video sampling10:52
lekernelmuch cheaper10:52
lekernellower power consumption (CG8 is 80W)10:52
lekernelmore effects10:52
lekernelopen source10:52
lekernelatm the M1 doesn't take still pictures like the CG8 does, but it's not too hard to add10:53
lekernelthe main point is the live video sampling10:53
lekernelvery fluid, and low response time10:53
lekernelPC based solutions have a hard time beating that10:54
wpwrakapropos low latency. i think you haven't responded to this idea yet: would you consider the M1 audio quality sufficient that a DJ would be willing to pass the main sound output (music more or less ready for amplification and speaker) through the M1 ?10:56
wpwrakif yes, you could even delay the sound depending on the video latency, and thus achieve true zero apparent latency10:56
lekernelwith the new wolfson codec, maybe10:57
wpwrakwolfspraul: http://www.roland.com/products/en/CG-8/ also gives another PR lead: the Club Systems International magazine10:58
wpwrakexcellent. sometimes, one may even want to time-shift the sound a bit before the video, e.g., because of additional processing stages, speed of sound, and intra-cranial processing delays and mismatches10:59
stekernadd some reverb and it can be used as a karaoke-machine as well ;)11:01
wpwrakthe CG-8's description does indeed sound pretty lame compared to the M1 ;-)11:01
wpwrakstekern: and you thought waterboarding was bad ...11:02
wpwrakstekern: a form of torture11:06
stekernaah, yes I see, wikipedia has enlightened me... yes that seems like a mild form of torture... at least in comparison to karaoke ;)11:08
stekernwhat wolson codec btw? is that something that is planned for rc4?11:17
rohnope. its on rc3 already. the ac97 audio codec was replaced by one from wolfson which is of much butter audio quality11:21
stekernroh: yes, I found that out myself by looking at the schematics11:21
rohwpwrak: i think one needs a 'perfect match' for a 'haptic' user experience.. some mm1-control-board to match the cg8 really11:22
rohe.g. some oem'ed midi controller of good quality and fitting labels on it11:22
stekerni still wouldn't really call that "hifi" though11:23
rohstekern: hifi is much less than that11:23
rohbut yes. reasonable dj's will never feed the main line to the amps through a vj device. simply because its not symmetric.11:24
stekernroh: hence the ""'s :)11:24
rohanyhow. delay isnt acceptable (and not needed)11:25
wpwrakroh: (haptic) yup. probably at some point in time, a bundle with OEMed MIDI peripherals would make sense11:33
lekernelnah, just build everything into one device11:33
lekerneland add a small LCD screen11:33
wpwrak(audio through vj) what do you mean with symmetric ?11:33
lekernelbut that's for way later11:33
wpwraklekernel: that's the hard way ;-) but yes, neater11:34
rohlekernel: input devices: mechanics iss really hard and expensive11:34
lekernelI know, and that's why we don't have it now11:35
rohwpwrak: xlr sockets etc11:35
rohlekernel: ack. sure. i know. thats why i suggested using a 'known good' midi controller to add that feature11:35
wpwrakthat'll be useful for figuring what works and what doesn't anyway11:37
wolfspraulboth are ac97, but before it was a National chip, now Wolfson12:03
wolfspraulI wouldn't blame the National chip per se, it may also be our environment. but at the bottom line the Wolfson ac97 on our board reduced audio noise by 90%12:03
wolfspraul[edirol comparison] - great12:04
wolfspraulwhat is 'low latency' btw, how many ms ?12:05
wolfspraulhow much on m1, how much with cg-8 ?12:05
rohwolfspraul: i dunno if the cg-8 supports 'being looped in' .. it seems to have an input, but i see no output for audio12:06
lekernelmilkymist has ~60ms on average12:07
lekernelcg8 ... I don't know, and I'm not sure if it makes much sense (the M1 low latency is particularly great with the video-in)12:08
lekernelbtw, the cg8 is basically a PC running Linux12:08
lekernelwith a nice enclosure12:09
lekerneland controls12:09
wolfspraulwow, 3500 USD ?12:11
rohah. i see. already wondered about the mechanical size (thickness) .. so its an itx or so board in there?12:11
wolfspraulhow many can they sell per year? still selling?12:11
wolfspraul"no longer available"12:12
lekernelyes, I think so12:13
lekerneland yes, it was very expensive12:13
lekernelit still is (there are second hands units on eBay and other sites sometimes)12:13
lekernelI don't know how many they sold. I will probably ask.12:13
wolfspraulso they merged the technology into some other product?12:19
lekernelI don't think so... seems they simply stopped doing this kind of stuff12:19
lekernelfrom my understanding they concentrate on video mixers only now12:20
wolfspraulhard to compete with notebooks12:20
lekernelyes, probably12:20
lekernelwe should clearly explain the advantages of the M1 over netbooks12:22
wolfsprauldon't hold back12:25
roh'boots faster'12:25
wolfspraulpower consumption, 5W instead of 20-30 minimum12:25
wolfspraullow latency, 60ms instead of ?12:25
roh'can run from battery'12:25
wolfsprauleasier to setup and maintain12:25
roh'small, light and easy to carry'12:26
wpwraklekernel: by the way, i think my new scheduler is good to go now. the overall speedup isn't as great as i had hoped, but i think now most of the slowness is in the parser.12:26
wolfspraulroh: what boots faster? boot times on notebooks may not be that bad, depending on setup12:26
wpwrakwolfspraul: no virus scanner needed ;-)12:26
wolfspraulmidi and dmx12:26
lekernellow latency video input is the #1 thing to stress imo12:26
wolfspraulvideo-in (could probably use a cheap usb cam on a notebook though)12:26
rohwolfspraul: well.. it takes minutes to boot a full os, and you need a app which need loading time also. the mm1 is ready in seconds12:27
wolfspraulthe notebook is definitely far more flexible, or at least it's all different12:27
lekernelI saw many shows using the camera with very noticeable latency (I guesstimate more than 150ms or so)12:27
lekerneland low FPS12:27
lekernelthe M1 output is extremely fluid and responsive compared to such things12:27
wolfspraulok, 150ms, good number to know/use12:28
lekernelit's just a very rough estimation12:28
wolfspraulalso over time I hope m1 is also known for its large community of people and free works that are easily shared with other m1 users12:28
rohi think i all boils down to 'making use of it' very easy and reliable. if somebody has fun using sth. the person will much more likely spend money (see apple) and or ignore some minor problems12:28
lekernel60ms average on M1 is generally accurate12:28
wpwrakwolfspraul: (laptop) and you can work on your effects while traveling12:28
wolfspraulbut that will take some time to really kick in, both in software (upload/download), and also in actual use12:28
wolfspraulm1 resolution (today) 640x480, notebook easily 1024x768 or more, HD even?12:48
--- Wed Sep 28 201100:00

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