#milkymist IRC log for Sunday, 2011-09-18

Action: wpwrak contemplated sending the M1 to the balcony. then the NOR corruption can freeze to death while i have it nice and warm ...00:39
wpwrakhehe ... gfpus.c Efficiency: 68%, my scheduler 71%. now i just wonder if the code is correct :)01:17
wpwrakNOR corruption definitely likes the night.03:41
wpwrakyes !! code is functionally identical ;-)03:48
wpwraknow let's benchmark the critter ...03:53
wpwrakvery satisfying :) the original scheduler takes about 31 seconds to compile "Godhead" 10k times. mine does it in 3.63 s (unoptimized)04:01
wpwrak(all on the PC ... haven't tried building FN yet)04:02
kristianpaulnight -> night clubs -> ;-)04:39
wolfspraulok I think for the most part my shop landing page is done https://sharism.cc/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1308:05
wolfspraulthe one thing still missing is tests with a few more browsers (only chromium so far008:05
wolfsprauland maybe better hover texts for some images08:06
wolfsprauland then of course feedback, if I get any :-)08:06
wolfspraulnext: write a few launch stories, and contact some journalists08:06
wpwrakthe four buttons would be even cuter if you could click them ;-))08:39
wpwrakminor nit: the contrast of the links isn't great. yellow on grey ...08:42
wpwrak"Here is how it works:" is a bit isolated. should it refer to the scenery image or also to the technical specs ?08:43
wpwrakhmm, "regular updates" sounds like a weekly patchday. it also downplays the possibility of sharing patches without involving the manufactureer08:44
wpwrakno "click to enlarge" for any of the images ? e.g., to get a closer look at the M1 or the accessories ?08:47
wolfspraulall good feedback, thanks!10:47
wolfspraulmost likely I'll do it once creloaded is out ;-)10:47
wpwraki see some sparks on the eastern horizon. is someone grinding an axe ? ;-)10:53
mwallewpwrak: what soc release are you using for your corruption tests?11:03
wpwrakyou mean bitstream ? the july stuff11:04
mwalleand the sw version11:04
wpwrakit's all the july stuff: http://www.milkymist.org/updates/2011-07-13/11:05
wpwrakwhee ! another corruption ! today they're fast11:07
mwallewpwrak: diff?11:08
wpwraktowards the end, right before the summary11:08
mwallewpwrak: +* ?11:09
mwallestrange diff :)11:10
wpwrak* = previous line11:10
wpwrakhexdump did it :)11:10
wpwrakso the 0x90 became a 0x1011:11
mwalleso 90->1011:11
wpwrakthis it with all safeties off - no clean shutdown, no locking11:12
mwallewpwrak: the ff corruptions are interesting11:16
wpwrakthe ff -> 00 ? yes. they're pretty frequent11:16
mwalleand 81 4c11:16
mwalleat the same offset11:17
wpwrakoh yes, this is an unusual one11:17
wpwrakahh, here he is ! :)11:20
wpwraklekernel: question: are code size and register allocations likely to be an issue with the PFPU ?11:21
wpwrakor are there still plenty of reserves ?11:21
lekernelthere are reserves; you still run into register allocation problems at times atm only because the register allocation software is stupid11:22
lekernelit preallocates registers for all variables, even unused ones11:22
wpwrakalso, what happens if one instruction issues from a register that's also in the destination slot of that instruction ? undefined behaviour ?11:22
lekerneland if you define more variables, you easily run into problems11:22
wpwrak(preallocate) yeah, and then you go and fish out the ones you don't need :)11:23
lekernelyeah, I should do that11:23
wpwrakyou're doing that already11:23
lekernelyeah, but on the scheduling stage11:23
wpwrakyou check if any instruction names one of these registers11:23
wpwrakbefore you have infinite registers, no ?11:24
wpwrakah, perhaps not for the pre-initialized ones11:24
lekernelbut the problem is: the first N registers are mapped directly to PFPU registers11:24
lekernelthe scheduler will always use those exact PFPU registers when it sees numbers <= N11:25
lekerneland the current algorithm preallocates all potential per-vertex and per-frame variables into that pool11:25
lekernelif user code defines more variables, they will receive the next register numbers11:25
wpwrakyup. i see what you mean11:25
lekernelif this goes above N, you run into the "register allocation failed" error message11:26
wpwrakyou ought rename the user-defined ones (or do something similar)11:26
lekernelthe problem is that they should keep their values between PFPU runs11:26
wpwrakah, and i found a bug in your thesis: table 6.1, destination should be 6..0, not 7..011:26
lekernelif I define them "renamable", the scheduler might reuse the same physical register twice and destroy the first value11:27
wpwraknaw, rename before scheduling11:27
wpwrakmove the "does anyone use this ?" check outside the scheduler11:27
lekerneljust strip out the unused per-frame and per-vertex variables from the preallocation...11:27
lekernelscan the patch once for used variables, and only allocate those11:28
wpwraknext question: which variables are outputs ? not only the ones names in VECTOUT, right ?11:29
lekernelVECTOUT is only useful for the per-vertex variables11:30
wolfspraullekernel: different question, trying to write an email to Wim I couldn't find the sources for http://milkymist.org/leaflets/brochure_v4.pdf11:31
wolfspraulis this already in git?11:31
lekernelin fact, the per-frame code is run on the PFPU merely because it can share the same infrastructure, not for performance reasons like the per-vertex one11:31
wpwrakhow can i tell what the outputs of the per-frame code are ?11:32
lekernelVECTOUT only writes two registers to memory with DMA, goes to the next vector, and runs again the PFPU code11:32
lekernelwpwrak, using the preallocation11:32
wolfspraulI am sort of happy with my shop landing page finally, feedback welcome https://sharism.cc/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1311:32
lekernelwolfspraul, yes, saw your email. moment...11:33
wolfspraulno rush11:33
wpwrakokay. so if a fixed register is written, this always means its an output. not just an intermediate value ?11:33
wolfspraulit's just that I want to avoid accidentally forking something with a commit when you have something locally...11:33
lekernelwpwrak, the compiler does that yes11:33
lekerneland it also uses fixed register for user variables (even if the generic code doesn't read them)11:33
lekerneljust so that values are kept between PFPU runs (having a fixed register also prevents the scheduler from reusing it multiple times)11:34
wpwrakgreat. i'm trying to find a "tight" definition for what it means for two code sequences to be functionally equivalent. for now, i just look at vectout11:35
wpwrakcontext: i'm writing a faster scheduler. the scheduler seems to be where compilation spends most of its time. i'm not completely finished yet, but it looks promising so far: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/m1/perf/sched.c11:36
lekernelin per-vertex code, the fixed registers also prevent the scheduler from damaging the values of the parameters (midi inputs, ...) that have been written by the renderer software11:37
wpwrakwith gcc and unoptimized, it's around 10x as fast as the original (tested with "Godhead")11:37
lekernelotherwise only the first vertex would use the correct parameter values11:37
lekernelwpwrak, cool!11:38
wpwrakcan data propagate from vertex to vertex ? i saw that push/pop stuff, but haven't looked at it in detail yet11:38
lekernelvery nice :)11:38
lekernelno, data isn't supposed to propagate from vertex to vertex11:38
lekernelso you think we can simply make the compiler so fast that no caching of the binary is needed?11:39
lekernelthat would be very cool :)11:39
wpwrakthe original scheduler achieves 68%. mine gets 71% witha peak allocation of 35 registers. if i enable a small optimization that increases total run time by about 15%, i get 79% with 26 registers11:39
wpwrakthat's exactly the idea ;-)11:39
lekernelthe PFPU is very fast already (not the limiting factor at all), so trading off code quality for runtime makes sense11:40
wpwrakthere's no gain in making code shorter, right ? (at long as it fits)11:41
lekernel79% efficienty is ~63 MFLOPS11:41
lekernelwe don't need that much11:42
lekernelshorter code is faster11:42
wolfspraulalright, I setup some redirects, sharism.cc/milkymist is the landing page11:42
lekernel1 instruction = 1 clock cycle at 80MHz11:42
lekernelall the time, except for VECTOUT11:42
wpwrakwhat my optimizer does is that, when given a set of instructions that can be scheduled, it picks the one that has the longest run time to the end of all the things that depend on it11:44
lekernelwolfspraul, here it is http://milkymist.org/Brochure2/11:44
lekernelmade with Photoshop by Openpattern graphics designer Michael Belhatte11:45
wpwrakwithout the optimizer, i simply pick the first that comes along (i.e., in input order) and that has no destination conflict11:45
lekernelhaven't opened the source files yet11:45
wolfspraulahh :-)11:45
wolfspraullekernel: totally new source files? so not related to the Scribus stuff we have in github?11:46
lekernelwpwrak, I was wondering if that "longest latency first" heuristic would have any positive effect :) apparently it does.11:46
lekernelwe should try scheduling more patches though11:46
lekerneland compare11:46
lekernel(just for curiosity)11:47
lekernelwolfspraul, yes11:47
wpwraklekernel: yup. 8% more efficiency, 25% fewer dynamically allocated registers11:47
wolfspraulok I will not move this over to github/scribus now, it's good that it's published there though11:47
lekernelyes and the files are very big and binary11:47
wpwrakthe massive drop in allocated registers was a welcome surprise. i think my unoptimized version uses more than yours.11:48
lekernel:) I haven't tried to optimize that scheduler a lot11:48
wpwrak(more patches) i'm just running the whole set11:48
lekerneljust put together something that works11:48
wpwrakcorrection, past tense. just finished :)11:48
wpwrakgrmbl. and i messed something up ... let's see why it thinks they're all the same ...11:50
wpwrakah, clever. that was basically just the empty program. it does a lot of stuff, so i didn't even notice ;-)11:54
wpwrak"ignoring unknown parameter bMotionVectorsOn" ? hmm ...11:55
lekernelah, yes, MilkDrop legacy11:56
lekernelthis parameter is redundant with mv_a and unsupported by FN11:56
lekernelif it's still in some patches, it's an oversight ...11:56
wpwrakthat came from  Custom/Philpraxis - Eight bit starfield.fnp11:57
lekernelit's quite in a few others...11:57
lekernellet me fix that11:57
GitHub73[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/aNDtrQ11:59
GitHub73[flickernoise/master] patches: remove bMotionVectorsOn - Sebastien Bourdeauducq11:59
wpwrakthanks !12:00
lekernelthank you for reporting :)12:01
GitHub8[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 1 new commit to stable_1.0: http://git.io/qwUK_g12:02
GitHub8[flickernoise/stable_1.0] patches: remove bMotionVectorsOn - Sebastien Bourdeauducq12:02
GitHub57[flickernoise] sbourdeauducq pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/TjsIrQ12:35
GitHub57[flickernoise/master] ignore video patch when there is no camera connectted - Xiangfu Liu12:35
GitHub57[flickernoise/master] performance: skip advanced patches and patches using unavailable video on patch switch - Sebastien Bourdeauducq12:35
lekernelwpwrak, new PR draft http://www.milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=M1_launch_PR12:47
wpwrakthe "computer-based" sounds weird12:52
lekernel-> "with a laptop"?12:55
wpwrakit sounds more like "we use live-action spray painting, to avoid those evil computer-based solutions"12:55
lekerneland replace other "computer" with "laptop" to avoid confusion among nerds12:55
wpwrakyeah, laptop. or just "PC". i guess the iFans will still realize that this applies to them as well :)12:56
wpwrakyeah. the 2nd "computer" isn't as bad, because it's clear from the context that you mean something additional12:57
wolfspraulok let me share my wisdom about PR13:05
wolfspraulour first practical problem is that none of us are English native speakers13:06
wpwraknow it comes :)13:06
wolfspraulthat means our texts must be edited13:06
wolfsprauljust quick13:06
wolfspraulmy key points13:06
wolfspraul#1 - don't forget that we are not native speakers13:06
wolfspraul#2 - the key thing is to work with journalists, email them directly13:07
wolfspraula story is not published if the text or 'news' is so good that they have to be published. this is not how it works, at all.13:07
wolfspraulfacts don't cease to be facts, but news ceases to be news13:07
wolfspraulwhat's interesting in news is often the story behind, the motivation of people, get the secrets out13:08
wolfspraulI will do this - I will write several intros/stories/paragraphs13:08
wolfsprauland then email them to some journalists, and see what I get back13:09
wolfspraulsebastien asked about PR agents in a mail - yes, they do work, definitely13:09
wolfspraulbut it's very expensive13:09
lekernelereleases is $39913:09
wolfspraulyou don't want a PR agent to write a short snippet for you, that's a waste of time13:09
wolfspraula PR agent acts like a 'pull station' for journalists13:09
lekernelnow, maybe you get what you pay for ...13:09
wolfspraulso for example, a journalist of a DJ magazine has a "vj special" coming out in the December 2011 edition13:10
wolfspraulbut where will he get his articles from?13:10
wolfspraulhe calls/emails some PR agents he knows (!)13:10
wolfspraul"hey, I have this VJ special in a few months, do you have something?"13:10
wolfspraulthe PR agent looks among his clients, and bang13:10
wolfspraulthat's how stories get into magazines13:11
wolfspraulyou can try ereleases and similar stuff for a few hundred USD, but I think it's a total waste of money13:11
wolfspraulyou can achieve the same by taking a few hours to copy/paste your news to the 'submit story' buttons of publications13:12
wolfspraulwhich is what I will do as soon as I have some feedback from some journalists13:12
wolfspraulas to which story they think might work13:12
wpwrakaha ! i reached my first "if". and indeed, it causes trouble :)13:13
wolfspraulif you really want to be represented well, you need to work with ongoing PR agents, that's an arrangement where you pay X thousand USD / month, and then you become one of his/her clients, and whenever journalists 'pull' a story from them your story will be pitched13:13
wpwrakwell, a little. very little :)13:13
wolfspraulfor example I can definitely recommend the services of Pat Meier-Johnson :-)13:14
wolfspraulbut too expensive for us now13:14
lekernelthat's only for the tech press, no?13:14
wolfspraulI have little experience outside tech, so until I have more, I assume it works the same there13:14
wolfspraulof course there may be other PR agents specializing in music/dj/etc.13:15
wolfspraulbut a PR agent generally acts like a pull station for future articles13:15
wolfspraulyou think about it (you being a journalist) - you have these 'themes' coming up, a schedule for the next x months13:15
wolfspraulbut where do you get the articles from?13:15
wolfspraulin the future!13:15
wolfspraulit can only work if there is some sort of aggregator that can schedule stuff in the future13:16
wolfspraula PR agent13:16
wolfspraullet's say some magazine always has a 'gadget focus' in the January edition13:16
wolfspraulor in November, christmas gift ideas13:16
wolfsprauletc. etc.13:16
wolfspraulhow can a journalist know in June which articles he should feature in the November edition?13:16
wolfspraulso he calls some PR agencies he knows13:17
wolfspraul"do you have anything interesting coming up for the November timeframe?"13:17
wolfspraulI need to feature some products that are hot and new *at that time*13:17
wpwrakhow about viral ? try to place it at an online spot where it has high visibility, then let the news spread itself ?13:17
wolfspraulsure, of course13:17
wolfspraulwe have been extremely bad at getting our rc2 users to open their mouths13:18
wolfspraulviral is viral, either it is viral or not :-)13:18
wolfspraulseems it is not, so far13:18
wolfspraulso we have13:18
wolfspraul1) push news out, 'submit story' buttons, email known journalists to see which story/angle might work13:18
wolfspraul2) register with good PR agent to get into magazines, be 'on the radar' for future editions/features, etc.13:19
wolfspraul3) viral, have your customers be so happy that they take your news further13:19
wolfspraul#1 we will be doing, now13:19
wolfspraul#2 is too expensive now13:19
lekernellet's just try everything until something works13:19
wolfspraul#3, well, don't know but so far it didn't happen13:19
wolfspraulif you are not sure about a good PR agent, you can also ask journalists13:20
wpwrakviral can also come from sites like /., lwn, etc.13:20
wolfspraulsay in music, I am not sure13:20
wolfspraulbut I have an intro at this german magazine, so I may ask there13:20
lekernelI don't think the journalist situation sucks as bad as you describe it, I already managed to get my articles in a few publications (with limited impact unfortunately)13:20
wpwrakand yes, there must be similar places in the music area13:20
wolfspraul"what is a good PR agent for the music press"13:20
lekernelslashdot worked great13:21
wolfspraulI didn't mean that at all13:21
lekernelyes sucks13:21
wpwrakwhat do the vjs say where they go for their daily news fix ?13:21
lekernelthis PR agent system sucks13:21
wolfspraulI'm just describing the mechanics as I've seen them working13:21
wolfspraulno the agents are needed for quality control13:22
lekernelit's unfair and journalists are supposed to do their job investigating stuff, not just drinking the kool aid from people who tell them whatever story from anyone that gives them money13:22
wpwrak /. seems to create a lot of activity but i'm not sure much is left after the noise dies down. but it seems that still a lot of people are reading it. we saw that with the pickup at friendlier places.13:22
lekernelso "sucks" is totally appropriate13:22
wolfsprauljournalists have no time for that13:23
wolfspraulthey just write write write13:23
wolfspraul10 stories or more per day13:23
wolfspraulyou would probably advise them all to quit their jobs :-)13:23
wolfspraullet them tell you how they are paid :-)13:23
wolfspraulby word, by minute (in radio), etc.13:23
wpwrakthey may make more on wellfare :)13:23
lekerneloh, well, maybe the problem goes deeper13:23
lekernelbut it still sucks13:23
wolfspraulyou are probably right, without agents the journalists' bosses would have to give them a lot more time :-)13:24
wolfspraulbut the agents act like quality filters13:24
wolfspraulof course it makes it very hard for newcomers13:24
lekernelyes, only people with a lot of money can get their voice heard13:24
lekernelwhat a great quality filter :-)13:24
wolfspraulyes but once you take money out you really do have a lot of junk13:25
wolfspraulit may be an unfair filter, but that's how it works now13:25
wolfspraulif you can spend 5000 USD / month (or more) on being represented by a PR agent, you probably are a serious business :-)13:25
wolfspraulso anyway, a good agent will get you into magazines, for sure13:26
wolfspraulotherwise he/she would loose your business, obviously13:27
wolfspraulso yes, it works, and it is very broadly used13:27
wolfspraulthe agents can also write texts, collect or make high quality pictures or videos, etc. etc.13:27
wolfspraulwill all cost, of course13:27
Action: wpwrak just imagines being served the daily unfiltered rubbish of all the great new products they have just received at dealextreme etc.13:27
wolfspraulfrom the life of a PR agent http://blog.journalistics.com/2009/how-to-pitch-a-story-part-one/13:30
wolfsprauljust google for 'pitch story' and you will find more13:30
wolfspraulthere's a lot of nice links at the bottom of that url13:31
wolfspraulneed to read a bit more :-)13:31
wolfspraulanyway, I dont' want to become a good PR agent, for sure13:31
wolfspraulso we do this for a while ourselves, hopefully to get things moving13:31
wolfspraulwithout being able to afford a good PR agent, we will alwyas have a very hard time to get our story out13:32
wolfspraulbecause we compete with the professional PR guys who often act as pull stations13:32
wolfspraulas soon as we can afford it, we should look for a suitable PR agent and enlist their help13:32
wolfspraulthey do hard work, it's not corruption money or wasted money13:32
wolfspraulunless you want to criticize the entire work situation of journalists who are just the magazine equivalent of code monkeys, but that's naive and things won't change anyway because of you13:33
wolfspraulwriting stories, pitching stories, getting them out is an art form in and of itself13:36
wolfspraulsome people love it13:36
wolfspraulit's their life13:36
wolfspraulthey wake up and have all these ideas for stories13:36
wolfspraulevery day13:36
wolfspraulso either we need to accept that too for a while, and play the game right, and enjoy it, or we just accept we are horribly bad at it and find someone like that to help us right away13:37
wpwraki notice a bit of a psychopathological theme in those patches ... Lonely_Signal_Gone_Mad, Altars_Of_Madness, Interwoven_Nightmare, Dark_Subconscious, DMX_madness, ...13:37
wolfsprauldismissing it as 'unfair', or 'we are not being heard' or 'we have no publicity' will achieve nothing13:38
wolfspraulthat's about all my wisdoms on the subject :-)13:38
wolfspraulI will try my luck this coming week, now that my landing page is ok (I think)13:39
wolfspraulyeah that's a good text [how to pitch a story], at least I agree with it all13:49
wolfspraulhelpareporter.com - interesting. didn't know about this before.13:50
lekernelI didn't say we shouldn't do it, I just said it sucks and it's unfair13:51
lekernelbut unpopularity sucks more13:51
wolfsprauldid you read that how to pitch url?13:52
wolfspraulgoogle for 'pitch story' and you find more13:52
wolfspraulmaybe I will try this helpareporter.com thing13:53
wolfspraullooks interesting13:53
wolfspraulI guess we can register as experts for video, synthesizers, fpga, free culture, etc? :-) don't know how it works...13:53
wolfspraulI guess it tries to automate the PR agent work a little, or at least pull out what can be automated into a site13:54
wolfspraullekernel: when you meet the edirol founder, ask him which PR agent they worked with at Roland, or before they were acquired by Roland14:25
wolfspraulget a specific name and contact info. the agents I know are all small businesses (1-2 persons), there shouldn't be much secrecy in this information, if he knows.14:25
wolfspraulgetting an intro at a good/the right PR agent may be the next big thing we need for Milkymist's success14:26
wolfspraulwe just need to know which PR agent can do wonders for us :-)14:26
wolfspraulwho has the ear of music journalists? I don't know...14:26
wolfspraulbut he may have some leads for you, so please ask14:26
wolfspraulalso ask him which magazines/publications/journalists where the most effective in getting the Edirol story out14:27
wpwraklekernel: by the way, what does the hardware do if an instruction uses the same register as implicit/explicit operand and as destination ? does something useful happen, or just chaos ?14:54
wpwraki guess he just tried it :)14:58
mwallelol :b15:20
wpwrakperformance comparison of the schedulers: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/perf/chart-2011091815:38
wpwrakthe two that don't have Y/Y/Y in the "Equiv" column are a bit worrisome. N/N/N means that original, new and new with optimization all produced different code. Y/N/N means that original and new produced the same but new+optimization didn't.15:39
wpwrakthe run time is for a loop that compiles the patch 10000 times. running on my Q6600, compiled with -pg without any -O15:40
rohwpwrak: nice.. so your optimizations work besides for 2 patches?15:50
Fallenouhum hum MacPorts "crossgcc" PortGroup (sort of template for Portfiles) seems not to be compatible with naming binaries "arch-systemVERSION-tool"17:12
Fallenouso instead of lm32-rtems4.11-gcc we would get lm32-rtems-gcc17:12
Fallenouif we use PortGroup crossgcc instead of a complety written from scratch Portfile17:12
FallenouThey don't like my Portfile (the one I submitted) cause they want me to use their new feature "PortGroup" in order to factorize Portfile code17:13
FallenouI think it would really be better if the Portfile would generate a lm32-rtems4.11-gcc instead of a lm32-rtems-gcc, because every page of the wiki and the automated scripts Xiangfu has written all use "lm32-rtems4.11-gcc" reference17:15
Fallenouwhat do you think ?17:15
rohfix the scripts to have "lm32-rtems4.11-" in CROSS17:21
rohneither lm32-rtems-gcc or lm32-rtems4.11-gcc should be hardcoded there anyhow17:22
qi-botThe Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-09182011-1746/17:22
Fallenouroh: Sorry I did not understand your workaround17:26
rohits not a workaround. the compiler should never be specified explicitely by its complete string. same goes for the other utils (ar, strip, etc)17:27
FallenouHow can make know which tool to use then ?17:29
Fallenouinstead of the usual native gcc17:29
FallenouI mean, in xiangfu script you have CC= AR= etc environment variables set, but they are set to "lm32-rtems4.11-TOOLNAME"17:31
Fallenouso I guess it won't work if the system has a binary named "lm32-rtems-gcc"17:32
Fallenouand so on17:32
rohthere should be a CROSS variable which has lm32-rtems4.11- in it17:39
rohand the CC then becomes CROSS+"gcc"17:39
rohso you only need to change one variable, depending on what prefix your toolchain has17:39
Fallenouoh ok17:40
FallenouBut you think we should definitely stick with the "lm32-rtems4.11-TOOL" naming, right ?17:40
rohi dont think that one should fix on one version. its irrealistic to make sure everybody uses the same compiler in th end17:42
FallenouMaybe, but we should try to stay coherent, when it's possible17:44
Fallenouso if we have scripts with 4.11 in the binary names17:44
Fallenouand wiki with 4.1117:44
rohthen thats stupid.17:44
Fallenouit will be weird to provide a lm32-rtems-gcc Portfile to Macports which generates "lm32-rtems-gcc"17:45
rohwho knows how long 4.11 is recent?17:45
rohso it needs to change anyhow17:45
Fallenouand to advertise this MacPort Portfile in our wiki17:45
FallenouOk I think I will drop an e-mail on the mailing list about this17:46
FallenouSo that people can give their opinion on this17:46
Fallenoubut we may end up removing "4.11", to stay generic and prepare for next rtems release17:46
rohyes. and fix some scripts which dont use CROSS or something similar  at all but hardcode stuff like LD=lm32-rtems4.11-ld \17:49
wpwrakroh: (optimization) yup, it almost always produces better code as well,.. and it's always ~10 times faster than the original. (at least on the PC and without -O)19:12
wpwrak((hard-coded toolchain) e.g., milkymist/software/include.mak19:14
wpwrakbut its good to see that it's using gcc. i thought there was llvm somewhere in there19:15
kristianpaul(llvm) just because the llvm prot for lm32 is not totally ready yet19:20
wpwrakhmm, i don't mind at all not having to keep yet another kind of toolchain around. something like five flavour of gcc is already plenty :)19:31
wpwrakhmm. valgrind doesn't see anything suspicious in the code the produces diverging results. complains a lot about fvm_dump, though.19:41
mwalleimho all scripts should use a CROSS_COMPILE prefix which may default to lm32-rtems4.11- but you should be able to override it via an environment variable19:55
wpwrakthat sounds reasonable, yes20:17
wpwrakof CROSS_COMPILE or CROSS20:18
Fallenoubut you need to choose wether you want to have a binary named lm32-rtems4.11-gcc or lm32-rtems-gcc21:11
wpwrakor both :)21:18
wpwrakversion numbers in tool names are relatively uncommon21:19
kristianpaulat least rtems seriouslly want to fork gcc .. ?21:20
wpwrakhmm yes, i'm sure sebastien has wet dreams about maintaining his own gcc fork. maybe with autotools too, just for the sheer pleasure of it ;-)21:21
mwalleFallenou: so? if you are required to use one without version, do it, run the script with CROSS_COMPILE=lm32-rtems-gcc- ./script21:30
Fallenouwpwrak: ahah he surely wants to get rid of autotools21:30
mwalleFallenou: btw does your macport receipt (dunno whats the name for it :)) support plain lm32-elf- too?21:31
Fallenouthe macports Portfile I've written is just compiling gcc 4.5.2 with newlib and applying rtems patches21:31
Fallenouit's doing the same thing as written on the wiki21:32
Fallenouand same as http://www.rtems.com/wiki/index.php/Building_the_RTEMS_toolset_on_Ubuntu21:32
Fallenoubut I could do a lm32-elf- Portfile too :) and generate .dmg files for it21:32
mwalleFallenou: would be cool, other users might write bare metal applications for lm3221:34
Action: kristianpaul likes mwalle idea 21:35
Fallenoumwalle: well yes good idea, I just wanted to allow compiling of flickernoise21:39
Fallenoubut yes, why not :)21:39
Fallenoubut first things first21:39
FallenouI still need to make this Portfile accepted21:39
Fallenoueither using PortGroup or not21:39
Fallenouin the mean time, there is still the .dmg files hosted on my website to give instant toolchain to mac users :)21:40
Fallenouplease if you have a Mac, try the .dmg files and give me feed backs if it works for you21:40
Fallenoubut it should !21:40
mwalleis it still ppc+x86?21:41
Fallenousince I only compiled it for x8621:44
FallenouI think the .dmg is only x8621:44
Fallenouit's not "universal"21:44
Fallenoubut ppc macs are really declining21:44
mwallehey :b21:45
Action: mwalle still have one21:45
FallenouI wonder how hard it would be for me, with my Intel mac, to generate universal binary (ppc+x86) :)21:45
FallenouI will ask on #macports ;)21:45
mwallewell my father inherited it, now21:46
mwalleFallenou: (declining userbase) yes but its sad that not even mozilla compiles their software for ppc anymore..21:47
Fallenouoh :(21:47
FallenouI guess they have limited resources21:48
Fallenouand limited people committed for these kind of "now exotic" platforms21:48
FallenouMaybe they would just be really happy with someone saying "I will compile mozilla for ppc and release it"21:48
Fallenoudunno if it's their policy or just a lack of resources21:48
Fallenouit's true that nowadays people are compiling for x86, amd_64, arm and that's it21:49
rohFallenou: i think ppc isnt needed anymore. people who use osx have x86 based hw nowadays (osx is pain and unsupported on ppc)22:43
Fallenouroh: well mac OS X can works on PPC, up to 10.522:44
Fallenoubut yes it's old computers22:45
Fallenouno more mac books are built with ppc22:45
Fallenouit's all x8622:45
Fallenoubut there are still out there people with old mac books  :)22:45
Fallenougood night !22:46
wpwrakFallenou: can't they run linux ?22:49
rohwpwrak: sure. and its much more fun than a slow and fat osx on hw too slow for fancy ui22:49
FallenouI won't enter this troll :)22:50
FallenouI think those who buy a Mac don't wanna install a Linux on it, they want the OS that goes with their hardware22:50
Fallenouand I can't blame them for this22:50
FallenouIf they wanted Linux, they would have bought a PC, it's less expensive and much more supported22:51
Fallenoutime to go to bed :p22:52
Fallenousee you :)22:52
wpwrakpity. so they'll remain at the stage of cavemen and never learn what a good text-based user interface is like :)22:52
FallenouI guess they will pretty soon (if not already done) buy a new PC or a new Mac book ;)22:53
wpwrakyeah, i would think so. it you follow that line of systems, you pretty much have to upgrade relatively often22:54
wpwraklinux is a little friendlier when it comes to that. but of course, there's pressure too. e.g., my first linux pc (~20 MHz 386DX) compiled the kernel pretty quickly with gcc 1.something. things have changed a bit since then, and while that box - if it still existed - would probably still be able to boot contemporary linux, it would have a hard time doing much else :)22:56
FallenouI guess you had something like 8 MB of RAM23:00
Fallenouhard to make linux boot with such a small RAM23:00
FallenouI added some RAM to my 486 DX2, it had 24 MB ;)23:01
Action: Fallenou not here anymore *zZzZ*23:01
wpwrakat the beginning, i had 4 MB. then i decided to go for luxury, have X, and got myself another 4 MB :)23:04
kristianpaulram, i guess that a mainly wall for selfhosting :/23:04
wpwrakhmm ?23:10
kristianpauli mean, you cant compile linux/gcc in your 12Mb router, but of course it can be cross-compiled23:13
kristianpauland still run :)23:13
kristianpaulwpwrak: is my comment valid/understandable?23:18
kristianpaulfor example imagine you want to partially reconfigure a mm soc for a specific task, the at least you need to make run llhdl on it, and i wonder if not re-compile some apps also23:20
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