#milkymist IRC log for Saturday, 2011-09-17

wpwrakwolfspraul: ah, i was just about to complain that it's hard to catch you on IRC, but here you are ;-)02:14
wpwrakwolfspraul: the landing page looks quite nice. some improvements: move the "Add to cart" section up, before all the example images.02:15
wpwrakfor this, perhaps swap the MAMM and the box content images02:15
wpwrakthe MAMM image is actually a bit cryptic. and so is "Sharism Presents Taipei". sounds like a jon-ism ;-) is "presents" a noun or a verb ?02:17
wpwrakalso, the scenery with the girl on screen seems to get vertically scaled with the specs on the right. that looks right on firefox but distorts it on konqueror. dunno what other browsers do with it.02:18
wolfspraulhmm02:30
wolfspraulhard to catch - sorry about that02:30
wolfspraulthat's mostly related to the firewall I am constantly struggling with02:30
wolfspraulI saw your comment about using qi-hw.com more - we should definitely do that02:31
wolfspraulthe shortener I mean02:31
wpwrakyes. short URLs = good karma :)02:31
wolfspraulI want to get rid of the entire creloaded shop software asap02:31
wolfspraulit's a pain to edit those pages02:31
wolfspraulJon already came up with a nice static design02:32
wolfspraulbut for now I do this, just fudge it up so it works for now02:32
wolfspraulcreloaded is also bad because they have this 'some features in proprietary pro version' model which I hate02:32
wolfsprauleither free software works or it doesn't work, but not like this02:32
wolfspraul:-)02:32
wpwrak;-))02:32
wpwrakcrippleware deluxe02:33
wolfspraulbah, yes02:33
wolfspraulpresents is a verb02:33
wolfspraulI don't want to move the accessories picture up because it's such bad quality02:33
wpwrakso M1 is something that's typical for taipei ?02:34
wolfspraulI almost don't want it at all, but it's good to say there are accessories02:34
wolfsprauldon't read too much into thi02:34
wolfspraulthis02:34
wolfspraulof course it's a jonism02:34
wpwraksigh02:34
wpwrakit's right on top of the page. so you get confused02:34
wpwraki don't think the accessories picture is bad. of course, there's no M1 in evidence :)02:35
wpwrakan online shop is a uniquely bad place for confusing people. you really don't want them to wonder where they've landed. it's already sub-optimal that they get sent from milkymist.org to sharism.02:39
wolfspraulone by one02:39
wolfspraulis the nice drawing looking better on your browser now?02:39
wpwrakyeah, much better !02:40
wpwraknot as good as in firefox, though. konqueror makes the whole page a bit narrower. but it's well within tolerances.02:41
wolfspraulI just removed some auto-tags :-)02:42
wolfspraulcreloaded...02:43
wolfsprauladded add to cart on top - good idea thanks!02:43
wolfspraulI need to tweak the text some more too, mention the included patches02:43
wolfsprauland the spec table needs an overhaul02:43
kristianpaul(MAMM) oh02:44
wpwrakyou actually have no less than four different "identities" on the store page: 1) sharism.cc in the URL and "sharism.cc the copyleft company" 2) "Sharism at Work Store" in the HTML title 3) "Hong-Kong based [...] Sharism Ltd." in the intro 4) "Sharism Presents Taipei" in the title visible on the page02:44
wolfspraulwell at least it's always sharism :-)02:44
wpwraki'm sure most domain grabbers manage to maintain the same level of consistency ;-)02:45
wpwrakif you added a few google ads, the impression would be perfect :)02:45
kristianpaulhum , i just started following @milkymistvj but number still 143 ..02:49
kristianpaulyes, i cleared cache and tried another broweser, may be i'm too inpatient02:50
wpwraki think that's the official number02:50
kristianpauli see02:50
wpwrakhey, it's just a few orders of magnitude away from the whole world population !02:50
kristianpaul"On the surface at least this seems kind of like the old Newtek Video Toasters& neat stuff!"02:53
kristianpaulhttp://ur1.ca/53vlj02:53
wpwrakheh, connecting to arduino is starting to pay off :) good move - i didn't think of the PR angle02:55
kristianpaulwut? i need to pay 7.80 usd to read this http://www.elektor.com/magazines/2011/september/milkymist-soc.1912165.lynkx ??02:55
kristianpaulwpwrak, yes good move indeed02:56
kristianpaulwell, if some body paid for the article may pay also for a bran news M1 as well ;)02:57
kristianpaulbrand new**02:57
wpwrak64 articles = 1 M1 ;-)02:58
kristianpaullol02:58
kristianpaulhum, adardruit may consider support another tutorial/workshop to make this thing work with M1 https://www.adafruit.com/products/2003:02
kristianpaulhe and ironically the only FPGA related thing on the shop is altera DE0 :(03:04
wpwrakhmm, competigion !03:06
wolfspraulkristianpaul: btw, your m1 picture @MAMM is the nicest on-location picture I believe we have03:31
wolfspraulthanks a lot!03:31
wolfspraulkristianpaul: adafruit may consider what? don't understand03:32
kristianpaulsell M1 :-)03:34
wolfspraulyou mean they should? I doubt it fits their business model03:36
wolfspraulyou can try to email them though, that's always great03:38
wolfspraulI believe Sebastien and/or me tried and got nothing back (not to my surprise)03:38
kristianpaul:)03:38
wpwrakM1 is a little heavy for the DIY crowd03:39
wolfspraulit will sell to some high-end hackers, but I'm optimistic we know this market quite well03:40
kristianpaulas when having a computer was matter of DIY? well not Do but may be Assemble?03:40
kristianpaulsure03:40
wolfspraulhackable-devices etc. will help, maybe something in the US too, but something smaller and more focused on going to hacker events etc.03:40
wolfsprauladafruit has a totally different business model, imho03:41
wolfspraulI would be surprised if they were interested in m103:41
wolfspraulaside from the hackers, we need to work on channels that reach out to musicians or people interested in video work03:41
wolfsprauland that's a big scene, many times bigger than hardware hackers03:41
wolfspraullike 1000 times bigger :-)03:42
wolfspraulso on the hacker side, we need help in being present with demo units at events03:43
wolfspraulon the music side, we need help because it's such a big world and many channels to reach music lovers allover03:43
wolfspraulthat's my thinking03:43
wolfspraulthink of it this way - even if adafruit.com would push m1 like crazy on their homepage etc. - how many would they sell?03:44
wolfspraulhow many of their products are over 50 USD, or 100 USD?03:45
wpwraklekernel: if your build environment has stdbool.h, you may want to consider #including it in flickernoise/src/compiler.c   makes the code a LOT more portable :)03:45
wpwrakpeople may find it via adafruit who are not regular adafruit customers. hard to tell in these networked days.03:47
kristianpaulfind /opt/rtems-4.11/ -name stdbool.h03:47
kristianpaul/opt/rtems-4.11/lib/gcc/lm32-rtems4.11/4.5.3/include/stdbool.h03:47
wpwrakkristianpaul: thanks ! so the build env is sane :)03:47
wolfspraulthe question is whether it makes sense for their business03:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: sure. that's only something they know :)03:48
wolfspraulfor me it's simple. I look at their company from the outside. I *think* m1 doesn't fit, but I email them, so they have the chance to see it.03:48
wolfspraulI am sure someone reads the mail. Most likely m1 does not fit a whole bunch of must-have criteria for inclusion, so it's out. Not even a reply. All fine.03:48
wolfspraulwpwrak: no you can make a qualification from outside03:49
wpwraksure. but it's hard to predict if they would take in some oddball thing they like03:50
wolfspraultheoretically a mail you send may end up in the spam filter, or be read at a bad moment or by the wrong contact03:50
wolfspraulbut practically you qualify outside, and then focus on where you youself believe in win-win03:50
wpwrakyes, if you don't have a proper channel, then there's that, too03:50
wolfspraulin adafruit's case, I don't03:50
wpwraki wouldn't bet on them becoming a major m1 promoter and reseller either :)03:51
wolfspraultheir business is to source all sorts of little hacker support stuff for 2 USD and sell it for 10-20 USD03:53
wolfspraulthey need a lot, and little things03:53
wolfspraulI think they are very hesitating to take anything above a certain pricepoint, because their entire business is not setup for that03:53
wolfspraulI'm wondering how they do the math on support, for example03:53
wolfspraulor returns03:53
wolfspraulthey may only include items they can source from at least 2 sources03:54
wolfspraulm1 is just a total misfit, if my thinking is even remotey accurate03:54
wolfspraulremotely03:54
wolfspraulthat's like asking Mercedes to sell some new soda you've developed. just total nonsense.03:55
wpwrakmaybe a scooter :)03:55
wpwrakbut they, they made the A1 ;-)03:55
wolfspraulI said 'soda' :-)03:55
wolfspraulmatee tee with special sports flavor03:55
wpwrakM1 is electronics :)03:55
wolfspraulyes but again, my outside thinking tells me it's a win-loose03:56
wolfspraulI send an email, I get nothing back: done03:56
wolfspraulover the last months I've collected lots of promising links and leads in the music scene03:56
wpwrakyeah. if you already knocked on their door and got no reaction, then there's little point in insisting03:56
wolfspraulhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_marketing#Links_to_Shops.2C_Communities.2C_Companies.2C_Projects.2C_Technologies03:57
wolfsprauladafruit is not even listed there03:57
wolfspraul:-)03:57
wolfspraulor is it? checking...03:57
wpwrak(music links) good !03:57
wolfspraulno03:57
wolfspraulI find it funny how those hacker supply companies turn lemons into lemonade for example with DIP connectors03:58
wolfspraulthey just leave them unsoldered (=they save money), and market it as a first 'hacker test' after receiving the kit03:58
wolfspraulha ha03:58
wolfspraulvery nice03:58
wolfspraulthey do know how to serve their customers03:58
wolfsprauland yes, I agree03:58
wolfspraul1) DIP is expensive03:58
wolfspraul2) their customers will actually feel *better* if they first have to solder some connectors to their new breakout board03:59
wolfspraulso it's a win-win03:59
wolfspraulI am just very realistic (I think) on the business of those companies. they are doing a good job, growing, etc.03:59
wolfspraulbut m1 is a total total misfit03:59
wolfspraulfrom all angles :-)03:59
wolfspraulI remember going with Sebastien to the segor shop in Berlin03:59
wolfspraulof course it doesn't fit04:00
wolfspraul"everything complete?" "how can we sell our 10 EUR connectors with 90% margin then?"04:00
wolfspraulif you walk around that store and look at the stuff they sell, you immediately realize something like m1 fits like oil in water there04:00
wolfspraulnot at all04:00
wolfspraulwe will include segor in our marketing, of course. if they want it we are more than happy to sell to them. but somehow from the business model I doubt it fits.04:01
wolfspraulwe'll find the places where it really does fit, I'm sure04:01
wolfspraulbut the ones specializing in overpriced hacker supplies won't be it, imho04:02
wolfspraulmaybe the ones specializing in overpriced musician & DJ equipment :-)04:02
wpwrakthere should be plenty of these :)04:02
wolfspraulthat's actually a sometimes overlooked side effect of the Arduino 'success', that they lowered the expected price point of hacker stuff to 20 USD04:06
wolfspraulwhich is deadly, no more innovation possible there, for anybody04:06
wolfspraulin the 80's when people bought their PCs, and all peripherals they could get their hands on, regular folks saved for months and spent thousands on those machines04:06
wolfsprauland what could they do with then? very little04:07
wolfspraulbut they believed in the future, there was something exciting there, so they save and spent thousands04:07
wolfsprauland this allowed the computer industry to grow04:07
kristianpaulwolfspraul: sure i agree, just wondering how they react now that see arduino can be connected and be "usfeull" to the M104:07
wolfspraulArduino is economically killing any chance the hackers may ever have to create something great and lasting04:07
wolfspraulI actually like companies like buglabs who try to keep their stuff valuable04:07
wolfspraulit's amazing how little the modern hacker values his time04:08
wolfspraulmust be in the pennies now04:08
wolfspraulso anyway, we cannot change this04:08
wolfspraulthe hacker scene will find out that none of their suppliers has any funds to do anything interesting :-)04:09
wolfspraulor maybe not04:09
wolfspraul"price goes down" also always means, to an extent, that that industry is dead. if it is not able to establish new higher-price products as successors.04:09
wolfspraulmaybe all of Atmel is acquired one day and cut to pieces04:10
wolfspraul:-)04:10
wolfspraulthere were some rumors already, it's not a very profitable semiconductor for sure, and I don't know where their capital for innovation should come from04:11
wolfspraulfor sure not from the Arduino community, even if they buy another 100 times more Arduinos...04:11
wolfspraulisn't it amazing that a sandwich in San Francisco costs as much as an Arduino board?04:11
wolfspraulI think that means you are better off starting a bio sandwich bar, than making Arduinos04:12
kristianpaulhe04:12
wolfspraulseriously04:12
wolfspraulthink about it04:12
wolfsprauleven returns and customer support are much easier with sandwiches :-)04:12
wolfspraulI am serious.04:12
wolfspraulI would rather open a bio sandwich bar than make Arduinos.04:13
wolfspraulI am pretty sure I would make more money with my sandwiches, and have more fun.04:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: step 1: launch M1. step 2: wait for the cash trucks to roll in. step 3: acquire atmel. step 4: kill avr and arduino.04:13
wolfspraulargh, no way acquire Atmel04:14
wolfspraulthey have some good analog chips though, I think04:14
wolfspraulthat seems to be what keeps them alive04:14
wpwrakor maybe step 1: open a sandwich bar. then proceed with step 2 :)04:14
wolfspraultrue? I am not sure...04:14
wpwrakdunno what atmel sell. they have a bewildering variety of things.04:15
wolfspraulyes :-)04:15
wpwrakthe AVRs may be important, though. i can imagine them in lots of industrial control devices as well.04:15
wolfspraulON Semiconductor tried to buy them in 200804:16
wolfspraulthe knocking on the door...04:16
wolfspraulthat bid was rejected04:16
wpwrakinteresting04:18
wolfspraulanyway the 20 USD pricepoint of Arduinos does have, imho, this side effect I am describing04:18
wolfspraulthat on one hand it shows how people value their own time (compared to the rise of PCs in the 80s), and on the other hand it means nobody in the supply chain will ever have any serious capital to do interesting things04:19
wolfspraulwhich is sad, but what can you do04:19
wolfspraulthey should come out with an uber-Arduino for 99 USD, as a start04:19
wolfsprauland then 499 USD04:19
wolfspraul:-)04:19
wpwrakcreate a new hype. escape the arduino trap :)04:19
wpwrakyeah04:19
wolfsprauloh sure, no trap. I like that community.04:19
wolfspraulbut I think the 20 USD trap is something that is hard to get out of04:20
wolfspraulit's all based on that now, even the ecosystem companies like adafruit/sparkfun etc. who live on selling 2 USD stuff for 10-20USD04:20
wpwraklearn from apple - make it cool :)04:20
wolfspraulyes of course. 'cool' as in spending time to explain it to regular people.04:21
wolfspraulHTC just bought that headphone company, did you read that?04:21
wolfspraulDr. Dres Beats04:21
wpwrakmaybe throw in shiny plastic :)04:21
wolfspraulfor > 500 million USD04:21
wolfspraulthose headphones retail for 180 USD04:21
wolfsprauland the expensive ones for up to 600 USD (!)04:21
wolfspraulthat's a business04:21
wpwrakthe one with gold-plated cables04:22
wolfspraulor whatever other marketing gimmick04:22
wpwrakstill nothing compared to that ethernet cable, but a good start04:22
wolfspraullike celebrity-endorsed, or whatever. limited edition, special color, special 'acoustics' (patented and secret), etc. etc.04:22
wolfspraulmy point is - that's a *business*04:22
wpwrakproprietary speed of sound04:22
wolfspraulso with m1 let's see how far we can take it04:23
wolfspraulI want to reach to music lovers04:23
wolfsprauland really do my best to offer them something amazing, and support it well04:23
wpwrakone weak spot is currently patch design documentation04:24
wolfspraul499 USD is already dangerously low, but I think we can do a great job for that pricepoint, so I think it's right04:24
wolfsprauloh definitely04:24
wolfspraulbtw, for the hackers, also some verilog 'hello world' equivalent04:24
wolfspraulyes lots to do04:24
wpwrakand packaging and pushing of the SDK04:24
wolfspraulfor the music lovers especially, make it work better and better for them04:25
wolfspraulignore the megahertz chasers04:25
wolfspraul:-)04:25
wpwraklearn from AMD and invent "equivalent MHz" :)04:25
wolfspraulmegahertz chasers were willing to spend thousands in the 80's04:25
wolfspraulby now they are so cheap anything more than a few USD will make them prefer going to the movies instead04:26
wpwrakthey still exist. hardcore gamers.04:26
wolfspraulyes, true. that niche is still around.04:26
wolfspraulbut for the most part the megahertz chasers that are left are terribly cheap04:26
wolfspraulwhich makes sense actually, not much more to expect from more megahertz04:27
wolfspraulI think there is a lot of wisdom in people's decisions04:27
wolfspraulwe just have to stop being focused on the remaining megahertz chasers and then complaining they are so cheap ;-)04:27
wpwrakwe can't give them tons of mhz anyway04:27
wolfspraulI think it's a good time to branch out with a 100% free platform04:28
wolfspraulmy first PC had 4.77 mhz04:29
wolfspraulman was I happy when my second one had 8 or 16 (forgot)04:29
wolfspraulthat was badly needed04:29
wolfspraulbut today - nah. what the nanonote or m1 need is better/smarter software.04:30
wpwrakhmm, don't remember how much that schneider pc had. may have been 804:30
wolfspraulon my notebook I still want a bit more performance, especially for video editing.04:30
wolfspraulschneider, ha04:30
wpwrakyeah. mhz, it has plenty :)04:30
wolfspraul464?04:30
wpwrak464 too. but then also the pc151204:30
wolfspraulalso I think picture sizes from still or video cameras will continue to go up (in resolution)04:31
wolfspraulso on my notebook I still want a bit more, but Intel will surely deliver that04:31
wolfspraulin embedded it's more about good vertical optimization04:32
wpwrakstill may reach saturation somewhere around 10 Mpixels. people who are serious already select for sensor size more than anything else.04:32
wolfspraulyes04:32
wolfspraulbut you will see screens with 4kx4k and even more04:32
wolfspraulbut anyway, on the embedded side it's all about vertical integration now04:32
wpwrakvideo still has a bit to go until they all reach 1080p. then they'll have to wait until tvs make the next step. but first, we'll probably see a lot of 3D.04:33
kristianpaul(hello world) something like this perhaps http://www.xess.com/appnotes/FpgasNowWhatBook.pdf04:34
wolfspraulhah04:34
wolfspraulI was about to post that link04:34
wolfspraula very nice book, cc-by-sa licensed04:34
kristianpaulyeap04:34
wpwraklooks quite impressive04:42
kristianpauli personally like the no led and buttons part04:52
wpwrakhmm, sebastien made his own little libc, too :) milkymist/software/include/base/04:57
kristianpaulyup, also libs for tftp, arp ... and counting04:58
kristianpaulfat ;)05:01
wpwrakseems that he had to increase the feature set of rtems by a few orders of magnitude :)05:02
wpwraknow .. where's a patch that takes a lot of time to compile ?05:05
Action: wpwrak wonders if the code is 64 bit clean05:09
wpwrakah, nice. works :)05:12
wpwrakhmm. my pc compiles the largest patch i could find in 10 ms ...05:14
wpwrakAderassi\ -\ Making\ time.fnp05:14
wpwrakpatch compiler compiled with gcc05:15
xiangfuwpwrak, there are 54 patches in milkymist one rc3.05:20
wpwrakactually, it's only 2 ms. i let it do it 1000 times. takes 2 seconds.05:20
xiangfuwpwrak, do you have -O in your gcc parameters :)05:21
xiangfuthere is '-O9' in flickernoise05:22
wpwraknaw, no optimization05:22
wpwraki want to profile the critter. so slow is good :)05:23
xiangfuyes.05:24
wpwrakokay, some take 3 ms. at least something :)05:24
wolfspraulwpwrak: what's the result with the nor corruption actually?05:25
wolfspraulare some tests still running or is it concluded for now?05:26
wpwrakstill working on the baseline :-(05:26
wpwrakis was about to send a jubilatory mail and just had to do one more sanity check. then i didn't get any corruption at all, meaning that the "good" results may be meaningless05:27
wpwrakso i went back to the drawing board ...05:27
wpwrakwait, lemme check in the latest data05:27
wpwrakhehe, that''s what i call luck. just got one more ;-)05:28
wolfspraulhmm05:28
wolfspraulhow about reworking one board to the gates+4.4v reset ic solution we plan for rc4, and testing against that as well?05:29
wolfspraulif you don't want to risk yours, Adam can pick one, do the rework, and ship it to you05:29
wolfspraulI want to give Adam a little more time to work through the entire batch, but slowly he may be ready for some more design/investigative work05:30
wpwraki can try that. but i need a bit more data. the times are spread quite widely.05:30
wolfspraulit sounds like you have a really good setup for testing now05:30
wolfspraulwe can pick a second board, rework that05:30
wolfspraulotherwise we may fool ourselves and waste time05:30
wolfspraulof course that can happen with a 2nd board too, but I rather have some more stable foundation to stand upon05:31
wolfsprauli.e. not rework the board under investigation too much05:31
wpwraki think it would make sense to rework the one from which the reference data comes. otherwise, we have nothing to compare with05:34
wpwrakhere's the latest data: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/m1rc3/norruption/LOG05:34
wpwraksummary at the bottom05:34
wpwrak"with/without corruption" means with corruption that prevents standby from loading. sometimes, also some of the leading 0xffff words gets zeroed, but the FPGA just skips that05:39
wpwrakso my plan is to do ten runs. then do a "clean" shutdown and see what happens05:40
wpwrakafter that, go back to dirty shutdown and see if corruption returns05:41
wpwrakthat makes this messy is that there may be hidden variables that have a great influence on the corruption probability05:41
wpwrakah, how many times did adam typically cycle those rc3 boards when testing ?05:42
wolfspraulhmm05:44
wolfspraulok I don't fully understand the data right now05:44
wolfspraulneed some real thinking :-)05:44
wolfspraulAdam cycles 10 times05:45
wolfspraulunplug DC jack, boot, let it render 30 seconds05:45
wolfspraulwhen we verified some boards he cycles 100 times05:45
wolfspraulcycled05:45
wolfspraulbut now it's always 1005:45
wpwrakhow often did he 100 cycles ?05:45
wpwrakand on how many boards did he 10 cycles ? 50 ? 60 ? 70 ?05:46
wpwrakanyway, if he did ~1000-2000 cycles in total and encountered NOR corruption twice, that would correspond to the kind of rate i get05:52
wpwrakokay, the inefficient string ops don't seem to affect the run time much05:55
wpwrakwith 10000 loops: http://pastebin.com/pu58CuL905:56
wolfspraulno, our numbers were much smaller before05:59
wolfspraulbefore fix2b etc. we saw the 'cannot boot anymore after rendering before' maybe every 20-30 cycles05:59
wpwrakhmm. then there's either a board variation or my process isn't very efficient.06:00
wolfspraulwith the latest reworks, and including locking, we haven't seen it in 500 cycles then we ok'ed the design06:00
wolfspraul2*100+30*1006:01
wpwrakah. maybe fix2b made a difference06:01
wolfspraulyes06:01
wolfspraulplus locking, don't know06:01
wpwrakokay, 500 cycles ... a bit on the lower end of my range, but still possible06:02
wpwraklocking may have come somewhat later06:25
wpwrakthere's probably no point in caching compiled patches. should be possible to speed up to compiler by a factor of at least 5.08:25
wolfspraulwpwrak: some more polishing on the landing page https://sharism.cc/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1308:31
wolfspraulhave more ideas...08:31
wolfspraulI want those 4 buttons from the brochure, and the spec table needs cleanup.08:32
wpwrakwhee ! :)08:33
wolfsprauland need to check some other browsers too, indeed08:33
wpwrakthe price is too small (at least in konqueror)08:33
wolfsprauli'm mostly on Chromium nowadays, Firefox/Iceweasel is slowly loosing me08:34
wolfspraulyes the price is small08:34
wpwraklet's see what it looks like in firefox ...08:34
wolfspraulI hope I don't need the *pro* version of creloaded to make it bigger08:34
wpwrak;-)))08:34
wolfspraulyep08:34
wpwrak"we have the smallest prices" ;-)08:34
wolfspraulwell08:34
wolfspraulthat's a 'valuable' (ahem) feature, right?08:34
wolfspraulmight move it to the pro version?08:35
wpwrakmaybe mention that shipping isn't included in the price ?08:36
wolfspraulwhere?08:37
wolfspraulit talks about shipping at the top a little08:37
wolfspraulI hope people at least skim the first paragraph08:37
wolfspraulI do need to spend some more time on the spec table, I think that's the next thing08:38
wolfspraulthen those 4 buttons a lot of people liked08:38
wpwrakyes, but it's not unambiguous whether shipping is included or not08:38
wpwrakalso, you talk about alternative payment options but don't mention the standard ones08:39
wolfspraulyes08:39
wolfspraulwill write "In addition to VISA and MasterCard, ..."08:39
wpwrakif you don't want to mention them there, then maybe move all payment info to the checkout ?08:39
wolfspraulnah the others are not automated08:39
wolfspraulnot now08:39
wolfspraulwill do that after ripping out creloaded :-)08:39
wolfspraulso if someone wants to pay with paypal, it's manual08:39
wpwrak;-))08:39
wpwrakthe whole layout of the order/price area looks a bit disconnected. not sure if you have much power over that, though08:40
wolfspraulwe have add to cart twice, I hope that's enough08:41
wpwrakyeah, top and bottom :)08:42
wpwrakmaybe add a pop-up when you close the tab/window ? "DO YOU REALLY NOT WANT TO ORDER NOW ??!??" ;-)08:43
wpwrakfor the specs table, do you want to change the content or just the formatting ?08:44
wpwrak(because the content looks good to me)08:45
wpwrakoh, does the accessories photo actually have the M1 hidden somewhere ? if not, maybe gimp it in ?08:45
wolfspraulnah accessories is just that08:48
wolfspraulthe picture is of bad quality, if anything I could retake it08:49
wolfspraulfor the spec table, no, I need to go over it08:49
wolfspraulthe number of included patches is missing08:49
wolfspraulor the fact that any are included08:49
wolfspraulthe list of accessories is missing08:49
wpwrakah, i see. yes.08:50
wolfspraulthe fact that we will provide regular and free updates to both patches and visuals is missing08:50
wolfspraulsorry I meant to both software and patches08:50
wpwrakperhaps the patches shouldn't even be in the specs table then08:50
wolfspraulreading the specs should make sense for a musician08:50
wolfspraulmaybe number of included patches should even be the first line ;-)08:51
wolfspraulI need to think about it08:51
wolfspraulwhat I have there now is just a draft for me08:51
wolfspraul54 patches included, that's a 'spec'08:51
wolfspraulit could also be 5, or 200, or 200008:51
wolfspraulbut it's 54 right now08:51
wolfspraul15 camera patches08:52
wolfspraulalso I don't like the "up to 1280x1024" thing08:53
wolfspraulto me that's misleading08:53
wpwrakit sounds as if patches were something expensive08:53
wolfspraulwe need a bit more honesty08:53
wpwrakyeah08:53
wpwrakalso OSC is a little misleading, isn't it ?08:53
wolfspraulneed to find out more08:53
wpwrak(or Linux ;-)08:54
wolfspraulthe OSC experience is definitely not good/usable right now, that's for sure08:54
wolfspraulyes, similar to Linux :-)08:54
wolfspraulon the other hand I think both should be mentioned08:54
wolfspraulbecause a) they work b) we are serious about them08:54
wolfspraulwe should mention them, just needs the right form08:54
wpwrak(osc) oh, then it's even worse than i imagined. i thought it worked but needed extra hardware you may not be carrying around with you normally08:54
wolfspraulnot sure what 'worked' means08:55
wolfspraulI think it's at alpha/demo/prototype level08:55
wolfspraulyes you need another device, like an android phone or so (or iphone). some osc client.08:55
wpwrakmaybe "flexible and upgradeable - we're adding more features, downloadable over the internet (linux, osc, ...)"08:55
wolfspraulthen you need to find a way to reach the m1 over ethernet08:56
wolfspraulwhatever works in osc is so difficult I don't think it's relevant to a regular user today08:56
wpwrakyeah :) the phone you may expect to need. but then you start to wonder where the m1 has its wifi :)08:56
wpwrakis OSC very popular ?08:56
wolfsprauldon't know, seems a lot of people like it / have high hopes in it08:57
wolfspraulmidi replacement?08:57
wolfspraulI don't know08:57
wolfspraulthe thing is - I don't think the actual experience on m1 is any good right now08:57
wolfspraulI'm glad to be proven wrong08:57
wolfspraulthe 1 osc 'proof video' (:-)) Xiangfu was able to make has no sound08:57
wolfspraulI asked the other day why it had no sound, the answer was "osc confuses audio-in"08:57
wolfspraulI left it there :-)08:57
wolfspraulI do not understand the osc experience on m1 very much/at all right now, so I have a hard time selling it as a feature.08:58
wolfspraulbut I think it will get better and eventually it will be really cool :-)08:58
wpwrakdefinitely an item for the "future features" list :)08:59
wpwrakextensibility is a two-edged sword, though. on one hand, it says the platform will not go stale quickly, on the other hand, it says that you're rushing the launch before the full feature set is ready.09:00
wolfspraulthere are good osc clients for iphone/android, that's definitely something to tap into to control m1. but in which way exactly, and what those clients can do exactly - I don't know09:01
wpwrakbut then, perhaps it's okay to slow things down a bit. delay the impatient a bit09:01
wolfspraulm1 is ready for real-life use09:01
wolfspraulwe do need pioneering real-life users now09:01
wolfsprauland they will give us some tough nuts to crack, for sure09:01
wolfspraulI am still hesitating to take m1 to some restaurants I have here that offered to test it for a while :-)09:01
wolfspraulbut eventually I have to get over the fear and just do it. and the discoveries won't be pretty ;-)09:02
wpwrakfor some people, "feature X not implemented" becomes "i won't buy until X is implemented". if you hadn't mentioned X, they wouldn't have missed it. but of course, maybe you don't want these in the first round anyway :)09:02
wolfspraulno I do think we should mention OSC and Linux09:02
wolfsprauland the 2 GB memory card (even though it's inaccessible right now)09:02
wolfspraulhiding those things is too far to the other extreme09:03
wolfspraulyou cannot demand the casual reader to pull the news out09:03
wolfspraulmany people did a lot of good work to get linux to run on m1, for example09:03
wolfspraulit should be mentioned09:03
wolfspraulwe know a lot more is needed, but that's not a reason to hide what we have achieved so far09:03
wpwraki don't disagree :)09:04
wolfspraulI will reorder this table09:04
wolfspraulthe stuff that works and is relevant to musician/dj/vj users at the top09:04
wolfspraulthe stuff that is more in the megahertz/megabit show-off circus, a bit more to the bottom09:04
wolfspraulpower consumption and ambient noise information will be above 32 MB nor flash09:05
wpwrakhmm, ambient noise. that's tricky ;-)09:07
wolfspraulwhy?09:08
wpwrakoh .. and when you hover over the M1 picture, you get an HTML injection attack ;-)09:08
wolfspraulI am planning to say something like "ambient noise: silent"09:08
wolfspraulis that ok?09:08
wpwrakokay, silent works :)09:08
wpwrakmaybe add "no fan" ;-)09:08
wolfspraulI think silent is ok09:08
wolfspraulhow about 0dB ?09:09
wolfspraulthat's probably inaccurate09:09
wpwrak0 dB is where it gets tricky ;-)09:09
wolfspraulI actually don't know09:09
wolfspraulyes, probably inaccurate09:09
wpwrakthere must be some noise, e.g., from the caps. just very very faint.09:09
wolfspraulyes09:10
wolfspraulI think I will say "silent"09:10
wpwraksilent (no fan) ?09:10
wolfspraulyes I could say that, but it looks techie/suspicious09:10
wolfspraulsilent is silent09:10
wpwrak"no fan" also means that it doesn't go from "slient" to "noisy bearing failure"09:10
wolfspraulask anybody what silent is and they will know09:10
wpwrakthere are "silent" PCs with fans ...09:11
wolfspraulsilence is the lack of audible sound09:11
wolfspraulwell, that's marketing silent09:11
wpwraki think even musicians haven't been spared the experience of a PC fan going bad ...09:11
wpwrakyes :)09:11
wolfspraulthe definition of silence is correct, and m1 matches09:12
wpwrak"not quite a noisy as the rest. under certain conditions."09:12
wolfspraul"lack of audible sound"09:12
wolfspraulI do need and want to get this right since I am talking to musicians09:13
wpwrak"none of out test subjects (all construction workers) could hear a thing"09:13
wolfspraulshould ask next time I'm in front of a serious musician09:13
wpwraki think musicians understand the concept of a fan quite well :)09:13
wolfspraul"what is silence"09:13
wolfspraul:-)09:13
wolfsprauloh you may be right that they may have been burnt by marketing silent before09:13
wpwrakplus, not having a fan, not even a "silent" one, also means one frequently failing item less09:13
wolfspraulbuy some device only to find out that they cannot use it in the studio as intended09:13
wpwraki think especially musicians would have a lot of different answers to "what is silent" :)09:14
wolfspraulso maybe silent (no fan) in the end, argh09:14
wolfspraulit looks wrong09:14
wpwrakvictory ! ;-)09:14
wolfsprauljust 'silent' is better09:14
wolfspraulbut ok09:14
wolfspraulno fan09:14
wolfspraul:-)09:15
wolfspraulyes they would have a lot of answers for "what is silence" but that's why I'm asking. what would they expect to read in the data sheet of a device if they want to make sure it makes no sound at all...09:16
wolfspraulmaybe in a real studio, they would move all electronics out into a separate room? don't know09:17
wolfspraulI will ask09:17
wolfsprauljust curious what is the best way to describe the m1 ambient noise characteristics, so it's immediately clear09:17
wolfspraul(to a musician)09:17
wpwrakhmm, i see that the "milkymist" logo has changed quite a bit on milkymist.org09:18
wolfspraulyou mean that whole pixelized 'milkymist' text?09:18
wpwrakyes09:19
wpwrakand there's no trace of the old logo09:19
wolfspraulold?09:19
wolfspraulthe 'm' only is the new one, so far Sebastien seemed ok with it09:19
wolfspraulit was designed by Christopher Adams, we use it on the stickers, etc.09:19
wpwrakokay ... doesn't look like the black pixelated text on milkymist.org ... even though it's the same M :)09:20
wpwrak(more or less)09:20
wpwraki guess color and having the whole name written make the difference09:21
wpwraksince the whole "Milklymist" is "artsy", one assumes it's part of the logo09:21
wpwrakmaybe sneak it somewhere into the shop page, for integrity09:22
wolfspraulnah, I dont' like it. it's unreadable.09:29
wolfspraulI have a new shop design in mind anyway, basically a big M1 picture in the middle, and a bunch of stuff around it on all 4 sides09:29
wolfspraulincluding NanoNote logo, NanoNote itself, etc.09:29
wolfspraulshould be nice09:29
wolfspraulfirst I finish this landing page in the old creloaded now, need to get it done asap09:30
wolfspraulwhat we have there now is not bad, nice drawing, nice youtube videos09:30
wolfspraulalthough sebastien correctly said that a nice unboxing video and a nice camera video are missing09:30
wpwrak(m1 in the middle, rest around) dunno. that suggests a semantical connection that doesn't exist09:33
wolfspraulit does, nanonote as m1 accessory, milkymist the cpu etc.09:34
wolfspraulthe center09:34
wolfspraulis ok with me09:34
wolfspraulno worries it will look good in the end :-)09:35
wpwrakbut the NN isn't just an M1 accessory. it's an independent product.09:35
wpwrakin fact, it doesn't even make much sense as an M1 accessory09:36
qi-botThe Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-09172011-1131/11:08
wolfspraulwpwrak: sure sure, it's just an idea for a design, no worries12:35
wolfspraulwe can also put the two side by side as on the current homepage. I don't think there is any special agenda in all this, besides looking clean and elegant, and just being 'the shop'.12:36
wolfspraulalso I want to make the shop mostly/all static html pages, committed into git so others can easily fork their own shops ;-)12:37
wpwrakheh :) static also means fast. good when the /. crowd comes :)15:34
wpwrakheh, the pfpu instruction format is funny :) each instruction is in fact split, with the 2nd half in a future code word. nice idea :)22:24
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