| wolfspraul | roh: u there? | 01:20 |
|---|---|---|
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: will you bundle a remote with M1 ? or just tell people what to get ? | 06:37 |
| wolfspraul | hah | 06:37 |
| wolfspraul | your humor is the best, by far! | 06:38 |
| wpwrak | (-:C | 06:38 |
| wolfspraul | there is, reportedly, one known working remote control | 06:38 |
| wolfspraul | an unknown Philips model | 06:38 |
| wolfspraul | from my investigations so far, I have been unable to find anyone else who was able to find a working one | 06:39 |
| wolfspraul | although many have tried | 06:39 |
| wolfspraul | I have 4 right in front of me here | 06:39 |
| wolfspraul | Xiangfu has 6 now, quickly growing to 10+ | 06:39 |
| wolfspraul | kristianpaul has tried 4 or more | 06:39 |
| wolfspraul | at this point I can neither bundle one, nor tell people 'what to get' | 06:40 |
| wpwrak | that's even more damning than i imagined ;-) | 06:40 |
| wolfspraul | but... we're getting there | 06:40 |
| wolfspraul | I'm optimistic as always | 06:40 |
| wpwrak | "just get one that works" ;-) | 06:40 |
| wolfspraul | I make a few assumptions | 06:40 |
| wolfspraul | Sebastien's working one is really rc-5 | 06:40 |
| wolfspraul | 38khz | 06:41 |
| wpwrak | "take M1 to the remotes shop, then keep on trying" :) that may actually be a strategy for finding one more that works | 06:41 |
| wolfspraul | the one Adam used, and sent an identical one to Xiangfu, is rc-5 as well | 06:41 |
| wolfspraul | the reason Adam and Xiangfu cannot get their to work is timing issues in the rc5 core in the SoC | 06:41 |
| wolfspraul | if that's true and can be fixed, perfect. we are back on track. | 06:41 |
| wolfspraul | at least that would explain everything I've seen so far. | 06:42 |
| wpwrak | (timing issue) yeah, i saw the discussion in #qi-hardware | 06:42 |
| wpwrak | then you'd bundle a known to be good one ? | 06:42 |
| wolfspraul | too speculative, one by one | 06:43 |
| wolfspraul | yes sure, if I can easily source a nice one that works for 2-3 USD, I'll throw it in | 06:43 |
| wolfspraul | without batteries as that would create too many shipping problems (will be standard cr2025 or so though) | 06:44 |
| wpwrak | okay, in this case the rc5-only route would work | 06:44 |
| wolfspraul | I cannot in a controlled way buy even a single working one. | 06:44 |
| wpwrak | yeah. i'd just dismiss rc5 and "learn" what the remote can do | 06:45 |
| wolfspraul | this IR problem will soon be resolved, I'm optimistic | 06:46 |
| wpwrak | make the fpga send a sequence of on/off interval values. two parameters: denoise delay and maximum idle time (before you signal the core that a new packet has arrived) | 06:46 |
| wolfspraul | well I cannot just hack that together | 06:46 |
| wpwrak | LIRC should have solved most of the technical side already | 06:46 |
| wolfspraul | if I'm lucky and I find a control that works well with m1, I'd forego any SoC fix | 06:46 |
| wpwrak | yeah, the nice thing about fpga - you can always fix it later ;-) | 06:47 |
| wolfspraul | but maybe it's easier to improve the rc5 core and then source a remote | 06:47 |
| wolfspraul | well, to a degree | 06:47 |
| wolfspraul | it gets dangerous when you start to fool yourself in testing | 06:47 |
| wolfspraul | I don't like that. | 06:47 |
| wpwrak | hehe ;-) | 06:47 |
| wolfspraul | I have a lot of experience in dealing with customer support cases. | 06:48 |
| wpwrak | yeah, if you can't even tell whether the IR receiver is connected or not, then your testing may be in trouble ;) | 06:48 |
| wolfspraul | and the one thing I need is _certainty_ on my side, what was originally tested. | 06:48 |
| wolfspraul | people come up with the craziest stories what happened and how something is not working | 06:48 |
| wolfspraul | if I don't have hard data on my side ("we tested this and that, so his problem must be ..."), then I have no chance | 06:48 |
| wolfspraul | for example Xiangfu and Adam over the last months started to believe that 'different values' are normal in IR remotes | 06:49 |
| wolfspraul | I cannot blame them, it's natural. We learn what is 'normal' from our environment. | 06:49 |
| wolfspraul | you wouldn't find that too funny on your TV remote though | 06:50 |
| wolfspraul | press '3', sometimes it goes to channel 5, sometimes 1, sometimes 4, etc. | 06:50 |
| wolfspraul | in the end this leads to cases where tech support tells the customer "it all works" and the customer says "nothing works" | 06:51 |
| wpwrak | well, you may not even notice the occasional incorrect value all that much | 06:51 |
| wolfspraul | and that's it. return, refund, big loss, frustration. needs to be fixed early. | 06:51 |
| wpwrak | but of course, here the situation seems to be a lot worse that just one bad code in a hundred | 06:51 |
| wolfspraul | you bet | 06:51 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 06:51 |
| wolfspraul | long story short - it's not working | 06:52 |
| wolfspraul | but no drama, we are close now | 06:52 |
| wolfspraul | it was my oversight to not notice this earlier | 06:52 |
| wolfspraul | I always thought "remote will just work" - ha! | 06:52 |
| wpwrak | what could possibly go wrong ? ;-) | 06:52 |
| wolfspraul | Sebastien cannot see it, because his remote works and all is perfect, and why should he test many different ones... | 06:52 |
| wolfspraul | Adam didn't see anything wrong because it looked like the behavior we got was 'normal' | 06:53 |
| wolfspraul | Xiangfu inherited his knowledge from Adam | 06:53 |
| wolfspraul | I became frustrated because I was unable to find any single remote that actually worked, although kristianpaul had been in this situation before but I didn't notice/understand the significance. | 06:53 |
| wolfspraul | That's how it goes :-) | 06:53 |
| wpwrak | kristianpaul is also a good test buyer because he doesn't live all that close to philips. "just buy a philips" may be rather tricky in some markets | 06:55 |
| wolfspraul | nah it's ok. if sebastien's latest theory is correct, the problem may simply be that the timings are way too specifically tuned/correct for the one remote Sebastien was working with in development. | 06:56 |
| wolfspraul | maybe even another control of the same model wouldn't work :-) we don't know right now | 06:56 |
| wpwrak | another benefit of a generic receiver - you see pretty quickly when your values are off :) | 06:58 |
| wolfspraul | my m1 just froze again in rendering (was testing) - 50 minutes | 07:24 |
| wolfspraul | starting over... | 07:24 |
| wolfspraul | yesterday I had the impression it got shorter over time, as if temperature or so mattered | 07:25 |
| xiangfu | ha. I found kristianpaul secret :D http://kristianpaul.org/~paul/tmp/mm1_html/ | 07:26 |
| xiangfu | http://kristianpaul.org/~paul/tmp/mm1_html/rc5.v.html#rc5 | 07:26 |
| lekernel | wolfspraul, get a damn stack trace when it freezes. just reporting "it freezes" isn't going to help. | 08:04 |
| lekernel | yeah well... it's a very simple piece of Verilog. no need to write a PhD on that :) | 08:05 |
| xiangfu | lekernel: how to get stack trace when it freezes? | 08:38 |
| xiangfu | lekernel: (timing rc5 verlog) you can give me a little info. I can test it in my m1 with IR remote controller :) | 08:39 |
| xiangfu | this is my first patch :D http://dpaste.com/551822/ but fix nothing. still same result as before :( | 08:40 |
| wolfspraul | ok the reason hadez is not moving forward is because he is waiting for the jtag-serial board | 08:44 |
| wolfspraul | at least it's an m1 owner who communicates :-) | 09:00 |
| lekernel | xiangfu, generate a .elf with debug information (built by default), load the very same binary into the M1, then use gdb remote | 09:01 |
| lekernel | lm32-rtems4.11-gdb flickernoise.elf | 09:01 |
| lekernel | flterm --gdb-passthrough | 09:01 |
| lekernel | in gdb: target remote /dev/pts/xxx | 09:02 |
| lekernel | backtrace | 09:02 |
| xiangfu | lekernel: thanks. | 09:02 |
| wolfspraul | lekernel: did you see what I wrote about errors when compiling patches? | 09:03 |
| lekernel | no | 09:03 |
| wolfspraul | it looks like a memory corruption | 09:03 |
| wolfspraul | ok I had this yesterday: I press "SImple Mode" | 09:03 |
| wolfspraul | it stops at some patch X, saying "error compiling X" | 09:03 |
| wolfspraul | I press "ok", then "Simple Mode" again | 09:03 |
| wolfspraul | then it stops at another path Y, again "error compiling Y" | 09:03 |
| wolfspraul | can go in that cycle forever, every time stops at another patch | 09:04 |
| lekernel | gdb is the tool you need to track down such problems | 09:04 |
| lekernel | otherwise it's just wild guesses | 09:04 |
| lekernel | you can attach gdb at any time, just make sure the debug-enabled .elf and the flashed binary are in sync | 09:05 |
| lekernel | maybe it'd be a good idea to put the debug elf into the msd archives ... | 09:11 |
| xiangfu | sounds good. | 09:12 |
| lekernel | wolfspraul, can you ship me a few remotes you plan including with the M1 package (preferably that one Adam made the scope trace of)? or can someone else fix the design? | 10:52 |
| kristianpaul | wolfspraul: i just tested so far one remote control, a LG MKJ33981408 | 11:14 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak: i better can easilly buy a universal remote control, informall mercants sell it screaming it on streets all time ;) | 11:15 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r88214e6 / (src/guirender.c src/patcheditor.c): Changed F8 'Start rendering' shortcut to F2 - http://bit.ly/j1P0fn | 12:13 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * ra400522 / src/flash.c : New update dialog box layout - http://bit.ly/iglVUR | 12:13 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r820b531 / (6 files): Update: use actual versions - http://bit.ly/mep31s | 12:25 |
| wpwrak | kristianpaul: yeah, here too ;-) | 12:33 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r2e18cbb / (src/flash.c src/performance.h): Mention patch pool - http://bit.ly/k2qRR5 | 12:43 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * rfcbd4c3 / (src/shortcuts.c src/sysettings.c src/sysettings.h): Update and show system settings dialog box on resolution switch shortcut - http://bit.ly/k4JrDJ | 12:43 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r6413391 / src/input.c : Fix pushbutton assignment - http://bit.ly/irBuYS | 13:09 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * ra431f9d / (7 files): Long press on left pushbutton to trigger automatic web update - http://bit.ly/kwT3v0 | 13:09 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r23a7b43 / src/filedialog.c : File dialog: quick find feature - http://bit.ly/kd2EDw | 14:14 |
| kristianpaul | lekernel: what you think in rc5 about making the divisor a register that can be written from csr so the software can fix posible sampling timing issues related to IR? | 14:41 |
| lekernel | and how would it fix it? | 14:42 |
| kristianpaul | well... finding right offset by trial and error :p | 14:43 |
| wolfspraul | should I send an rc-5 sample remote from Adam to lekernel? or kristianpaul wants one? | 14:44 |
| lekernel | unfortunately this is perhaps the only way to get rc5 to work in a timely fashion | 14:45 |
| kristianpaul | in dont want rc5 | 14:45 |
| kristianpaul | sample | 14:45 |
| wolfspraul | from the scope pics Adam took (which all read as correct rc-5), I think lekernel's latest theory about timing issues must be the right one | 14:46 |
| kristianpaul | i have a remote control it should work some how.. also i will try source philis one today | 14:46 |
| kristianpaul | may be i woks out of the box :) | 14:46 |
| wolfspraul | kristianpaul: maybe it's the same, it sends proper rc-5 but the SoC cannot decode it | 14:46 |
| wolfspraul | is the feedback from the vendor about timing and tolerances helpful at all? | 14:47 |
| kristianpaul | so lekernel you think a more flexyble counter for the rc5 sampling part will help? | 14:47 |
| lekernel | no, I don't | 14:47 |
| lekernel | because there is no sensible way to program it | 14:47 |
| kristianpaul | so? still hardcoding the core to get it work with a single control? | 14:48 |
| lekernel | yes, that's what taking the least time from me | 14:48 |
| lekernel | so unless wpwrak or you want to implement a more elaborate pattern matching system, that's how it's going to be done | 14:49 |
| kristianpaul | okay i tought it was a sampling issue | 14:51 |
| kristianpaul | or port the lirc gpio code and do bitbang from lm32/navre? | 15:07 |
| wpwrak | lekernel: sigh, if it was just a question of wanting ... | 15:23 |
| lekernel | wpwrak, so what's the problem? | 15:32 |
| lekernel | it's not harder than e.g. ubb-vga | 15:32 |
| wpwrak | lekernel: buying a mm1, finding the time, ... | 15:33 |
| lekernel | well, if you do it, I can give you one of my rc1's which are collecting dust anyway | 15:35 |
| wpwrak | heh, now that's tempting ;-) | 15:38 |
| wpwrak | i have no practical verilog experience, but i guess that wouldn't be an unsurmountable problem. having to install a pile of windows-only junk on my pc would be a bit of an annoyance, but i suppose everything necessary works well under wine ? | 15:42 |
| kristianpaul | xilinx ise run on linux btw | 15:43 |
| kristianpaul | and using makefiles :-) | 15:43 |
| wpwrak | kristianpaul: oh, even natively ? wow | 15:44 |
| kristianpaul | sure | 15:44 |
| larsc | huge 11GB blob | 15:44 |
| wpwrak | kristianpaul: so the whole m1 fpga development cycle can be done under linux ? | 15:44 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak: sure | 15:45 |
| kristianpaul | wow, i tought you already knew it | 15:45 |
| wpwrak | hmm, 89 GB free under / | 15:45 |
| kristianpaul | indeed larsc | 15:45 |
| kristianpaul | /dev/sdb6 31G 22G 6,9G 77% /opt | 15:46 |
| kristianpaul | all my xilinx rtems stuff is there^ | 15:46 |
| lekernel | yeah you only need windows for the pcb (altium) | 15:46 |
| kristianpaul | yeah :/ | 15:46 |
| lekernel | and to get started with verilog, you can use a free simulator like gplcver or icarus verilog | 15:46 |
| kristianpaul | plus gtkwave :-) | 15:47 |
| wpwrak | lekernel: now, what exactly would i have to do for it ? :) would be piece of code that has a "learn" (spits out a string of timing data) and a "play" mode (matches timing data with a set of known functions), along with the lower-level bits needed for it be enough ? | 15:50 |
| lekernel | imo the verilog module could write a RLE-compressed list of the received 0 and 1's into a small on-chip memory whenever it gets an IR burst | 15:52 |
| lekernel | then the CPU can do the rest | 15:52 |
| wpwrak | lekernel: that's exactly what i had in mind ;-) | 15:52 |
| wpwrak | lekernel: basically needs four parameters: sample rate, buffer depth, minimum pulse length (to de-noise), and maximum idle time (to finish burst and notify the core) | 15:54 |
| lekernel | you can hardcode the sample rate and buffer depth | 15:54 |
| wpwrak | yup. they're just design parameters. | 15:55 |
| lekernel | and maximum idle time can simply be set to the maximum RLE counter value before it overflows :) | 15:55 |
| lekernel | minimum pulse length, I'm not even sure that would be needed in hardware | 15:55 |
| lekernel | software can probably do it | 15:55 |
| lekernel | or just not do it at all, as it wouldn't match any pattern | 15:56 |
| wpwrak | (max) possible ... hmm, lemme see if i still have my notes from the ir research i did some eons ago ... | 15:56 |
| wpwrak | the min filter's main purpose would be to avoid filling the buffer with junk. some remotes are VERY chatty, so you want to make good use of the space. | 15:57 |
| kristianpaul | interesting, sounds like a know issue :-) | 16:04 |
| wpwrak | (from my notes, remotes for tv, roomba, some pinnacle IR, one where i don't remember what it was, and one from an air conditioning) i had short vs. long intervals. duration of short about 0.5-1 ms. long 2-7 ms. burst duration 30-75 ms. | 16:05 |
| wpwrak | the air conditioning sent about 30 intervals (i.e., 15 pulses) :) | 16:06 |
| wpwrak | alas, i didn't write down the time between bursts | 16:06 |
| wpwrak | back then i used a 100 ms timeout | 16:07 |
| wpwrak | 64 us sample period = ~15.6 kHz | 16:08 |
| kristianpaul | ah, thats the known functions for | 16:09 |
| wpwrak | all with a meager PIC. | 16:10 |
| kristianpaul | (PIC) i remenber when the only way to get serial port was bitbanging :-) | 16:25 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r8ddcd84 / (src/sysconfig.c src/sysconfig.h src/sysettings.c): sysconfig: add simple performance mode parameters - http://bit.ly/koqJds | 16:43 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r007009f / src/sysettings.c : sysconfig: better layout - http://bit.ly/lclnPG | 17:15 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r5213f6a / (src/cp.c src/performance.c src/performance.h): performance: implement automatic switch and title display - http://bit.ly/ltxwBI | 17:15 |
| lekernel | btw, apparently libpng (e.g. wallpapers and screenshots) is so slow on milkymist because it uses software floating point emulation | 19:56 |
| lekernel | and... the recently released "libpng 1.5.0 includes a complete fixed point API" | 20:00 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * rb4b36d0 / (7 files): PNG cleanup + libpng 1.5 compatibility - http://bit.ly/kC1mxQ | 21:20 |
| CIA-29 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r970ea12 / (src/cp.c src/performance.c src/performance.h): Display performance window from control panel - http://bit.ly/iEryZ6 | 21:20 |
| lekernel | mh... isn't any faster in fact | 21:25 |
| lekernel | weird | 21:25 |
| mwalle | hi | 21:49 |
| wpwrak | lekernel: maybe your fpu is too good ;-) | 22:12 |
| wpwrak | lekernel: i'll hate myself for letting me get drawn into this now, but ... if your offer is still good, i'd take it :) | 22:42 |
| --- Thu Jun 9 2011 | 00:00 | |
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