#milkymist IRC log for Friday, 2011-06-03

lekernelhi10:12
lekernelroh, any update about the cases?10:12
sqgllekernel, Hi Sebastien10:18
lekernelhi sqgl10:19
sqglI was chatting to wolfspraul yesterday10:19
sqglI only just deiscovered MilkyMist10:19
sqglI will be in Berlin in a few weeks (I hope)10:19
sqgland I am a VJ/DJ that already does combined live-visuals with live-music10:20
sqgl(The same controllers are mapped to control both simultaneously).10:20
sqglSo it may be interesting to meet while in Berlin.10:20
sqglFrom your site I see you are into HardCore10:20
sqglAny other styles?10:21
sqgllekernel,  Would like to at least see a real-life demo of the m1 when I visit Berlin (since there are no good video demos online)10:26
sqglI understand there are no m1 users currently in Australia (where I live)10:26
lekernelsure, just ping me a few days before you arrive in Berlin10:27
lekernelI'll be there most of the time during the next weeks.10:27
sqglAm looking to stay in Berlin for a couple of months.10:28
lekernelalright, should definitely be no problem then :-)10:28
sqglAm open to collaboration (even coding).10:28
wolfspraulsqgl: I was curious about one thing yesterday I think you didn't answer. the video you linked to, how much time roughly did it take you to produce it?10:28
lekernelregarding styles, I used Milkymist with tons of stuff, even acoustic flamenco :)10:29
wolfspraulI'm trying to understand the VJ working style...10:29
wolfspraulis this something you do in a few hours, few days, few weeks?10:29
sqglwolfspraul, yeah sorry, I noticed your question too late10:29
sqglIt was done in realtime10:29
sqglexcept for the text10:29
wolfspraulhow many such videos do you produce, say in a month? or how many such performances?10:30
sqglI use three Korg NanoKontrols10:30
sqglZero per month10:30
wolfsprauldo you create new stuff all the time, or polish/prepare a lot?10:30
sqglThat one is old.10:30
sqglLots of tweaking10:30
sqglunfortunately10:30
sqglOnly recently have gotten it to a state I am happy with.10:30
sqglNow need to make a vido before going to EU.10:31
lekernelsqgl, are you into programming as well?10:31
sqglWant to combine images of the Traktor workflow along with hands tweaking Korg nano10:31
sqglI used to be a programmer.10:31
sqglGave it up 15 years ago in favour of music.10:32
sqglCan write C10:32
sqglLearned PureData10:33
sqglMost of my "programming" lately has been very complex mapping in Midi-Ox10:33
sqglwhich is not fun I can assure you10:34
sqglwolfspraul, in terms of workflow...10:34
sqglMy DJ'ing style is live mashups, therfore very busy10:34
sqglI figure if the visuals correspond to the audio tweaking10:35
wolfspraulI am trying to understand the percentage you spend in the studio/lab, vs at a party/stage10:35
sqglthen a listener can understand what is being DJ'd vs what is in the original music10:36
wolfspraulI could imagine some people maybe spend 90% in a studio, prepare a lot, then perform10:36
sqglwolfspraul, much more in studio/lab than party10:36
wolfspraulothers maybe the opposite, just always perform and create stuff there :-)10:36
sqglAt age 46 I am over partying for its own sake.10:36
sqglAnd there is hardly anyone performing doing anything interesting.10:37
sqglWhich is why I started SHARE chapter in Sydney10:37
wolfspraulsure I was asking because people have a different approach to this and I was trying to understand yours10:37
sqglwolfspraul, np10:37
wolfspraulI could see people only creating creating creating, and not so much caring about preparations, or archival/distribution of their creations10:37
sqglI run two net radio stations10:38
sqglthe idea being that listeners can choose tracks which I download10:38
sqgland begin remix/mashup even befor ethe downloads are copmlete.10:38
sqglSort of like someone throwing random object to a juggler10:39
sqglThe juggler enjoys the process and the objects used are not so important10:40
sqglThe important thing is to make a beautiful show combining the elements.10:40
sqglAnyhow, that's my thig. There are so many different approaches nowadays.10:40
sqglwolfspraul, What is your "thing"?10:40
sqgllekernel, do you make music?10:41
lekernelno, nothing really good *g*10:42
sqglYou are probably like me but the opposite.10:42
sqglI appreciate coding but do not have time for both coding and music.10:42
wolfspraulsqgl: I was a professional software developer for 15+ years, got bored of it and wondered where all the hardware came from, how it was made etc. So I started exploring the hw side maybe 4-5 years ago.10:43
wolfspraulDecided that I was not interested in the design part, but instead manufacturing. Maybe that's because I mostly drove software development from the testing side as well :-)10:44
wolfspraulso now I'm working on the manufacturing side - sourcing, testing10:44
sqglwolfspraul, manufacturing is changing so fast that I can understand wanting to specialise just to keep up10:45
wolfspraulnot sure. I can see the long waves now, I don't think it's changing fast.10:45
wolfspraulit's like in software, there are long waves too. People still make money from their SQL skills :-)10:45
lekernelthink about cobol or fortran :)10:46
sqglMy first few jobs were in fortran10:46
sqglis it still taught at university?10:46
wolfspraulI was lucky that I was able to move to greater China and work in a lot of factories/companies here, they are freaking good at manufacturing indeed. It's probably a cultural fit between Chinese culture and what is important in manufacturing.10:46
sqglwolfspraul, moved from where?10:47
sqglHK10:47
wolfspraulI worked in Connecticut before10:47
sqglOh10:47
wolfspraulfor 10+ years10:47
wolfspraulthe hardware back then was a black box to me, or anybody in the office :-) just a Motorola/Sony Ericsson/etc. prototype coming with fedex...10:48
sqglInteresting to have the perspective10:48
wolfspraulthen we started with the SDK and such, compiler, etc. but I wasn't satisfied with this black box falling from the sky, so I went to shanghai10:48
wolfspraulthe direction was right :-)10:48
wolfspraultowards the source, he he10:48
sqglMy major was a triple major electronics/computing/statistics (took only a little biut longer because  many of the courses/subjects did overlap)10:49
sqglYou don't need to bne in Shanghai to study electronics10:50
sqglBut there is a big difference between theory and practicew10:50
sqglI learned how to make computers starting from sand and gold10:50
sqglbut I graduated not even knowing how to solder properly!10:51
wolfspraulno definitely not. But you need to be inside Chinese factories or OEM offices to understand manufacturing.10:51
wolfspraulthe state of manufacturing in Europe/US nowadays is appaling. like 3rd world actually. Just nobody left with the knowledge, no companies, etc.10:51
wolfspraulthat'll change though :-)10:51
sqglIt will?10:51
lekernelwolfspraul, this isn't totally true10:51
sqglWhy would it change?10:52
wolfspraulmaybe I'm exaggerating. Europe and US are big.10:52
lekernelwe could definitely manufacture M1s in France, for example.10:52
wolfsprauland I think it will change10:52
wolfspraulyes definitely, I agree10:52
wolfspraulwe will in fact10:52
sqglI have not been to China10:52
sqglbut have spent much time in India10:52
sqgland witnessed a huge problem with qulaity control10:53
wolfspraullekernel: the problem would be to keep the prices down, or in fact even acknowledge first of all that driving prices down aggressively is a worthwhile goal.10:53
sqgland witnessed a huge problem with quality control10:53
wolfspraulmost companies in France right now may give up on that right away, and say "we only do this to some point here, then if we are successful we outsource to China"10:53
sqglDoes Archos manufacture in France or China?10:53
wolfspraulbut I think even that will change, we see10:53
wolfspraulmanufacturing is a difficult challenge, time and margins are against you and those are typically seen as goals not worthwhile pursuing10:54
sqglI did study Operations Research10:54
sqglEven had one contract using OR10:54
sqgl(on production line for telephone manufacturing)10:55
sqglI don't imagine phones are manufactured in Australia anymore10:55
sqglI found Operations Research fascinating.10:56
sqgllekernel, I will be looking for a flat to rent in Berlin for two months.10:58
sqglI would probably have to share because as a musician I do not have a great income.10:58
sqgl(I enough money saved but I just need to be careful with it).10:58
sqglI could probably go up to 100EU10:59
lekernelwell, given how painful and messy it was for me to get a flat for myself, I'm not exactly one to ask about apartment advice :-)11:00
sqglOh, that's discouraging to here :(11:00
sqglI do have other friends there.11:00
sqglWill ask them also.11:00
lekernel100E? well, flats in central Berlin are several times more expensive than that11:00
lekernelyou may try districts like Merzahn11:00
sqglSharing with one or two people 100EU should be possible.11:01
sqglIt was when I was there in 200611:01
sqglI don't mind squatting either if the people are recommended and interesting.11:02
lekernelyeah, if you like punks, extreme left-wing activism and dirty places, squatting is an option11:03
sqglNot my favorite option11:03
lekernelit's not like in Amsterdam in Paris, squats in Berlin are very hardcore11:03
sqgl(am a bit too old to find it "romantic")11:03
lekerneltry Merzahn ... I've been there once, and the area and flats looked ok11:04
lekernel(which is a limited experience ...)11:04
lekernelit's a long subway ride though11:04
sqglWhere werew you before Berlin?11:05
sqglI would sacrifice modern conveniences to be closer to the centre.11:06
sqglI stayed in Kreuzberg and Mitte before.11:06
sqglfor a month.11:06
sqglhouseminding, renting, sharing, couchsurfing - various combinations.11:06
sqgllekernel,  where do you live?11:07
lekernelschöneberg11:07
sqglI flew into there11:07
lekernelberg, not feld11:08
sqglAhhh11:08
sqglQuick look at Wikipedia confused me11:08
sqglAirport mention must have beenb TempelHoff related11:09
sqglDo you live in that area which has Hi-Rise surrounded by tiny private gardens11:11
sqglThere was also lots of quiet curvy streets with houses and very very few cars11:12
Action: sqgl tried to remember where that was exactly. Somewhere near Templehof.11:13
sqglSt Joseph Krankenhaus in Tempelhof !11:21
sqglThat was in the midle of that area. Magical town-planning!11:21
rohwell.. what parts of it are were planned is afaik still disputed ;)11:22
sqglhttp://www.sjk.de/Kontakt.14.0.html11:23
lekernelroh, ?11:23
sqglThat is the map11:24
sqglYou can see the curvy roads11:24
lekernelroh, if you have a problem, please say something :-)11:24
sqglI understand Berlin does not allow Google to provide StretView of the city.11:24
rohlekernel: no problem.11:24
sqglroh, Are you talking about the decommissioned Tempelhof airport site?11:25
wolfspraulroh: hey, good to see you! any news on the cases?11:25
sqglAny news about that?11:25
rohwolfspraul: progress yes, completed no ;)11:25
wolfspraulthat's fine, makes me feel better :-)11:25
lekernelroh, ah, I thought "what parts of it are were planned is afaik still disputed" was about the case ...11:26
sqglToo much time chatting to strangerse on the other side of the worlkd about town planning? ;)11:26
wolfspraulthe cameras are in Taipei already, that's settled11:26
wolfspraulnow working on power supplies, need to hurry up on that a little11:26
rohwolfspraul: i still need to get the acryllic and do the lasering, but all the 'small parts shit' is done.. (sourcing, sorting etc) and also the shielding sheeds are 50% completed11:26
wolfsprauland the box, need to hurry up on that as well11:26
lekernelwolfspraul, can you publish Yi's initial box design?11:26
wolfspraulI think most parts are already in Taipei, at least if I look at the bom in the wiki11:26
wolfspraulyes sure, will do very soon. I have to go dig those files out...11:27
rohlekernel: well.. lots of the parts of berlin are more a result of time and people doing stuff and not neccessarily proper 'planning' and concepts which were thought through11:27
wolfspraulah, a few parts are still missing, but 95% is there http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC3_BOM11:28
wolfspraulroh: was the location of the mic hole and MIC label clear to you?11:28
rohi think so11:32
rohmiddle between vga and line holes, 2mm diameter11:32
wolfspraulah yes, but we had this really precise now11:33
rohlabel 'Mic' on the same height as the other labels11:33
wolfspraulhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/adam/m1/pic/rc3_MK1_coordinate.jpg11:35
wolfspraul"The height of central point of microphone is thus 9.7mm(mic diameter) / 2 =11:35
wolfspraul4.85mm from pcb top surface. for your reference."11:35
wolfspraulroh: that should give you exact x and y coordinates for the hole11:36
wolfsprauldoes this make sense to you?11:36
rohi'll note it down11:37
rohi think i should make the hole about 5mm above the pcb. hopefully the mic will not 'lay down' with the corner11:38
wolfsprauland keep the URL just in case. Not that we have the hole in the wrong spot suddenly :-)11:38
roheh 'isde' to the pcb11:38
rohirgh. side11:38
wolfspraulsure, 5mm high sounds good11:39
sqglwolfspraul, Yesterday we were talking about how additional hardware is needed to screen-capture the m111:47
sqglI just found this http://www.epiphan.com/products/frame-grabbers/vga2usb/11:47
sqglfor $30011:47
sqglbut am wondering if you know if this would also help me with my current video-capturing11:48
sqglie Do you think it would allow for smoother captures than the software capturing I have been doing11:49
wolfspraulno idea11:49
wolfspraulsorry, I don't know11:49
sqglThank, I'll have to ask around some VJ forums (or perhaps do some calculations, looking at USB bandwidth, HDD rpm etc)11:51
lekernelthe best way to capture video would be to encode it on the fpga :-)11:51
lekernelbut it needs work11:51
sqglSurely not until v211:52
sqglIf I wanted to make a demo with the m1 in Berlin I would need something like that box.11:53
wolfspraullekernel was also thinking about supporting tv-out over vga, that would make recording easier, but I'm not sure where this stands on the long list of possible new features...11:58
lekernelsqgl, what is "v2"?11:58
lekernelI think it can work with the current hardware11:59
sqglSo you are sriously thinking of including it in the next release?12:02
sqglWhat would be the output? USB?12:02
lekernelethernet12:07
lekernelit's won't be in the "next release" before several months12:07
lekernelunless someone steps up and helps me, of course12:07
lekernelthat's a lot of work12:08
lekernellol http://www.vimeo.com/2460888112:29
xiangfuhttp://freshmeat.net/projects/flickernoise12:53
lekernelroh, is the agency open this sunday afternoon?13:12
kristianpaulxiangfu: there is a demo button in last flikernoise right?13:31
kristianpaulmay be i'll have a dorkbot on my town in next month soi was thiking do so out-of-the-box automated ambientation with mm1 and let people play with keyboard shortcuts13:32
xiangfukristianpaul: if you reflash the latest firmware. be default it's boot to 'simple mode'13:33
kristianpaulok13:34
xiangfuthe 'demo button' you mean is for goto next patch in 'simple mode' it's go over all patch one by one, when you press that(the left button, or F11 in keyboard)13:34
xiangfu'simple mode' is good from demo.13:35
xiangfuanother you want maybe the keyboard autobuild. which bind the a~z to patches.13:35
xiangfukristianpaul: oh another things is OSC, if you setup m1 network. you can send OSC message from your PC to m1.13:36
kristianpaulsure i use networking all time!13:37
kristianpaulbut dunno a OSC client..13:37
kristianpaul( 'simple mode' it's go over all patch one by one) cool !13:37
xiangfuoscsend 192.168.0.14 4444 /osd s "hello from kristianpaul"13:37
kristianpaullol, let see13:38
Action: kristianpaul install liblo-tools13:38
kristianpaulgood13:39
kristianpauli''ll try later, right now my mm1 is console only mode ;) and really striped out soc (to get 15min sinthesize time !)13:39
kristianpaulthanks xiangfu13:40
xiangfukristianpaul: by default, it's DHCP, so the ip address maybe different. not 42 anymore :)13:40
xiangfukristianpaul: sure.13:40
kristianpaulsure sure, i own my dhcp server np on that13:41
xiangfukristianpaul: :)13:44
wolfspraullekernel: man that jtag-serial thing is so so wrong13:47
wolfspraulthose guys are just massive roadblocks :-)13:47
wolfspraulI fought for every day to get them made in December, fedex to Germany, mail to customers and Bearstech13:47
wolfspraulthen totally stuck13:48
wolfspraulbah13:48
wolfspraullet's hope he can do a 3.3v serial solution, and h:d finally delivers what they owe him for 5 months already13:48
kristianpaulhum..13:49
xiangfukristianpaul: I just list all four osc address in m1: http://www.milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Flickernoise_user_manual#OSC14:02
xiangfukristianpaul: it still needs a lot of works on this User_manual14:02
xiangfu  "/patch", "i" for switch patch by using 'oscsend'14:03
kristianpaulah ok14:09
kristianpaul http://www.ohloh.net/p/milkymist/factoids/486506114:11
xiangfu12%14:21
lekernelwhat source is ohloh using?14:22
lekerneloutdated soc? up to date soc? flickernoise? libs?14:22
kristianpaulno idea (source)14:26
rohr14:30
rohe14:30
lekernelroh, s/sunday/monday14:31
lekernelwolfspraul, maybe bearstech and tuxbrain are a bit sloppy at times, but at least they're not complete assholes like many other small electronics distributors I contacted15:17
lekernele.g. http://mbed.org/order/ has a good list of imbecilic and arrogant people on it15:18
wolfspraultrue true. I just want h:d and tuxbrain to do even better :-)15:19
wolfsprauland plus I kinda knew this before, that's why I try to hard to make a complete package when it leaves my direct control.15:20
wolfspraulbecause I know how terrible hard it is later to send missing things, replace stuff, fix power adapter issues wrt mains connector, and so on15:20
wolfspraulin fact most of the time, even if you sell something, whatever you sold will remain unused in some corner or drawer15:20
wolfspraulso I will continue to make a complete package that will not leave this kind of opportunity for failure...15:21
wolfspraulI wouldn't be surprised if Danny from freedomincluded.com hadn't turned on his m1 even once until today...15:22
wolfspraulok I saw that list [mbed]15:23
wolfspraulwhat was your experience with companies on that list?15:24
wolfspraulmost of them don't reply at all?15:24
lekernelyeah, or "won't sell", "we don't do this kind of stuff", "too expensive", "only if we get free units", etc.15:26
lekernelthey're a pain, and given the small volumes they would sell anyway they are not worth my patience15:29
wolfspraulI haven't thought much about their businesses, but from the distance I'd also think it's a mismatch15:33
wolfspraulI think most of them make their money with very low-cost items that have big margins15:33
wolfspraulso for example they have a naked board, 20-50 USD15:33
wolfspraulthey don't make much money with that15:33
wolfspraulbut then people will buy a lot of small things, cables, adapters, power supplies, etc.15:34
wolfsprauland that's where the big fat margins are15:34
wolfspraulthat's just my very rough guess about these businesses15:34
wolfspraulso a video synthesizer just doesn't make sense there15:34
lekerneldepends, sometimes they also have some packaged audio equipment there as well15:35
wolfspraulinstead of trying to sell m1 to them, let them tell you waht they like to sell, then you get the idea and you can decide whether it's worth to continue talking to them15:35
lekerneloh, well, I wouldn't bother15:35
wolfspraulwe can try to find distributors for Roland or similar brands, and see what they say15:35
wolfspraulI'll do that as soon as I have units15:35
lekernelI'd rather reserve my patience for large distributors, not for 2-guy businesses who also are a pain in the ass to work with15:37
wolfspraulyes15:37
wolfsprauland they need to add value too, what's the point of yet another online store...15:37
lekernelI just mailed them a few times, got negative answers or no answers, end of discussions.15:37
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