#milkymist IRC log for Thursday, 2011-06-02

kristianpaulfrom #fpga02:14
kristianpaul21:13 < Quack> milkymist rocks....that guy is just awesome02:14
wolfspraulkristianpaul: that's on freenode #fpga? does he know about #milkymist?02:26
wolfspraulinvite him here if he likes to...02:26
kristianpaulyeah, #fpga at freenode02:32
sqglJust heard about MilkyMist.org but I can't find any good demos on the site or on youtube.14:03
sqglCan anyone recommend one please?14:03
xiangfu`sqgl: Hi check this http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2011-06-0114:05
xiangfu`sqgl: there are some URL in that page.14:05
xiangfu`sqgl: for Video Demo, we don't have good High quality video demo.14:07
xiangfu`sqgl: but we have a lot of good screenshot ;-)14:08
sqglIs this maybe because most of you specialise in coding rather than performance?14:09
sqglI also know that screen capture takes a lot CPU14:09
sqglHow would Screen Shot of MilkyMist look different from a Screen Shot of MilkDrop?14:10
xiangfu`there are some picture are different. if there is Video-In in milkymist.14:11
xiangfu`check here: http://www.milkymist.org/flickernoise.html14:12
xiangfu`the milkymist not only take the Sound, also Video-In, OSC, MIDI ..14:12
sqglYes, I forgot about the Video In.14:12
sqglI would like to see realtime reaction to OSC or MIDI though.14:13
sqglI do it on PX using Arkaos and some very complex Midi-Ox programming14:14
xiangfu`sqgl: (screen capture) we do focus on performance, the performance is all on 'video synthesize' for now :D, step by step.14:14
sqglBut my laptop overheats into Thermal shutdown so MilkyMist might be a god direction for me.14:14
xiangfu`sqgl: (OSC) there is simple video :http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:TouchOSC-control-m1-performence.ogv14:15
sqglYes that is the kind of video I was looking for14:19
xiangfu`sqgl: what is 'PX'?14:19
sqglBut only the first controller of the four is obviously doing something.14:19
sqglOh sorry14:19
sqglXP :)14:20
sqglI meant PC14:20
sqgl(but it is running XP)14:20
xiangfu`sqgl: OSC, it's easy modify to support four. but we need find a good way that connect OSC and milkymist14:20
Action: sqgl watches video again to see if he can make more sense of it14:21
sqglMIDI is crap.14:21
sqglOSC is good selling point.14:22
sqglMIDI clock is very bad.14:22
xiangfu`MIDI, I don't know much. I don't have another device have MIDI, only milkymist :)14:22
sqglAnd you would already know about poor 127 step resolution of course.14:22
sqglMIDI is very bad for live electronic music jams. I often struggle with it.14:23
xiangfu`(complex Midi-Ox programming) what is that. can you give me more info, for learn MIDI programming thanks.14:23
sqglMid-Ox is freeware for Windows14:23
sqglIt has lots of mapping options14:23
xiangfu`if the OSC can replace MIDI at all in your case?14:24
sqgland very stable14:24
sqglWhen I play solo I use Traktor14:24
sqglWhich is a DJ program14:24
sqglThey used to have OSC but now only MIDI14:24
sqglI don't know why. Maybe a licence/business decision.14:24
sqglBut I could map MIDI to OSC via some software I suppose.14:25
sqglDo you know why the Hong Kong Shop does not have MilkyMist on its web site anymore?14:26
xiangfu`we out of stock. working on the RC3 now.14:27
sqglEven watching that video a second time I cannot understand what soft-controls 2,3,4 do14:28
sqglIs that your shop?14:28
sqgl(I am from Australia so I would buy from HK)14:28
sqgl(if I buy)14:28
xiangfu`not mine. our company :)14:28
xiangfu`Soft-control 2 is color I guess. 3 is the lines at bottom and top.14:30
sqglBut after so many years there is still not a cool video :(14:30
xiangfu`yes. we should do VGA-output capture for good video.14:30
sqglI just found a good way to capture.14:31
sqglIf you use Windoze14:31
xiangfu`no. but I can find a Windows pc14:32
sqglThen you can use MaxiVista MirrorPro14:32
sqglon a second powerful PC (at your friends house if you do not have one) and use a screencapture program14:32
sqglI use CaptureWiz14:33
xiangfu`no. it will not working. the screen is direct output by Milkymist one.14:33
sqglOf course the whole point of MikyMist is that it takes the load from your CPU/GPU14:33
sqgland so there should be plenty left over for screen capture14:33
xiangfu`you have to have some hardware to capture the VGA-OUTPUT.14:33
sqglAhhhh I understand now14:34
sqglIn one way I like the fact that it cannot be captured (easily)14:35
sqglVery underground! :)14:35
sqglAudience must be at the gig.14:36
sqglDo you know anyone in Australia using it?14:37
wolfspraulI don't think anybody in Australia yet14:38
wolfspraulbut... I have a question for you :-)14:39
wolfspraulAustralia has a relatively rare mains power connector, Type I on Wikipedia's list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_power_around_the_world14:39
wolfspraulhow are electronic products typically sold in Australia? all power supplies have this native plug right away? or they have a US plug and then some adapter?14:40
wolfspraulor do some of your power sockets now support US or EU plugs as well?14:41
wolfspraulI'm asking because I am currently working on the power supplies for our upcoming run14:42
sqglNo adapter.14:43
sqglall power supplies have this native plug right away14:43
sqglBut a US plug can be twisted with pliers and it fits.14:44
sqglI think all devices now need an earth pin like in that picture.14:44
sqglThere used to be devices without the earth pin.14:45
sqglSometimes I saw off the earth pin to prevent hoise.14:45
sqglSometimes I saw off the earth pin to prevent noise.14:45
wolfspraulyour sockets only accept the native Australia plug?14:45
wolfspraulhere in China most sockets are built in such a way that you can plug almost anything in :-)14:46
sqglAll of the sockets in every house14:46
wolfspraulok got it14:46
sqglyes, some good sockets in Thailand are like that also.14:46
sqglYou can use what we call a kettle cord14:47
sqglwhich is a detachable cord for a kettle (like you use to boil water)14:47
sqglIt is also usually the kind of cord/plug used for CRT monitors.14:47
sqglbut it is maybe too large for the box.14:47
sqglIf you have this socket on the box14:48
sqglthen this cord is very easy to find.14:48
sqglAll geeks have a spare one lying around.14:48
sqglMost consumers throw them out with there old broken goods.14:49
sqglThey are ignorant.14:49
sqglThey don't know that it is a passive device.14:49
sqglAnd people are wasteful here. It makes me sad.14:49
sqglhaving dinner now.14:50
sqglBack in 10 minutes14:50
Action: sqgl is away: the real world is intruding14:50
wolfspraulit's called C15 here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettle_lead#C1514:50
wolfsprauldon't you think C5 or C7 are more common?14:50
xiangfu`wolfspraul: I found we don't have a mailing list for ender users.14:50
sqglC15 definitely more common14:51
xiangfu`the Description, is 'Milkymist One, Milkymist SoC and Flickernoise developers' list'14:51
sqglC7 is now obsolete because of the new law that everything must have an earth pin14:51
wolfspraulI'm not sure end users would even want mailing lists nowadays14:51
sqgl(I think it is law. I can check if you like)14:51
wolfspraulC5 and C7 both have earthin pins, as per the table a bit higher on that page14:51
sqglC5 was only used by Compaq about 10 years ago.14:52
sqglUsed to cost $50 !!!!!!14:52
sqgl Now My Acer uses it.14:52
sqglBut I have not seen it on non laptop power supplies here.14:52
wolfspraulmaybe that's a mistake in that table? don't quite understand14:53
wolfspraulC7 seems to have only 2 pins14:53
sqglC5 has earth pin14:53
sqglC7 has not14:53
wolfspraulthen the table at the top is wrong14:53
wolfspraulit's a wiki, should we correct it? :-)14:53
sqglI will change it.14:54
wolfspraulok, but then I still think C5 is more common than C15, but you don't think so14:54
sqglThen I can take the blame :)14:54
sqglNot in Australia.14:54
sqglC5 is very recent here.14:54
sqglBut I don't buy many consumer goods.14:55
sqglI will ask my friends.14:55
wolfsprauland C15 is the kitchen thing for stuff that gets hot, the computer one is C1314:55
xiangfu`wolfspraul: in my kitchen is all C13.14:56
wolfspraulyes please ask and just post here, whether I'm online or not. I check the backlog.14:56
xiangfu`C5 is used in recently IBM thinkpad14:56
wolfspraulsqgl: ahh, another very important thing for us... do you have any ideas of cool retail stores or small chains in Australia that could carry the m1?15:06
wolfspraulwe think we may only have a chance to generate some sales if a store can setup a demo unit and let it run, and let people play with a remote control to iterate over patches etc.15:07
wolfspraulwould need to be the right environment, maybe a music store or so15:07
sqglcool stores15:09
sqglLet me think15:09
sqglBy the way C7 definitely has no earth pin.15:10
sqglHave change Wiki15:11
sqglHave changed Wiki15:12
sqglThere are two big retail outlets here in Australia:15:13
sqglDick Smith, Jaycar15:13
sqglJaycar is more geeky15:13
sqglDick Smith has become more consumer electronics.15:13
sqglI don't know any people who work for them (cannot help you).15:14
sqglSo user would control it via an iPhone/iPod/iPad?15:16
sqglApple products are a little bit too expensive to dedicate to demo use.15:17
sqglAnd customers may steal it.15:17
wolfspraulcan control with a 1 USD rc-5 remote control15:17
wolfspraulI'm not looking for big stores, maybe smaller ones that get the product and are willing to setup a demo15:18
wolfspraulneeds to be someone who really likes it, because we have few data to promise great sales now15:18
wolfspraulzero data actually :-)15:18
wolfspraulit's more like "set this up and _maybe_ your customers will like it"15:18
wolfspraulretail is so competitive nowadays that most larger chains will not be interested in this type of experiment15:19
sqglYes big chains are like that15:19
sqglBut the Jaycar chains are very geeky15:19
wolfspraulwhere do musicians or djs go to buy stuff?15:20
sqglIs this the kind of remote you are talking about? http://www.amazon.com/Canon-RC-5-Wireless-Controller-Digital/dp/B00004WCCQ15:20
wolfspraulwhen you say 'geeky' you mean computer geeks?15:20
sqglI buy my stuff online15:21
sqglOften from USA15:21
sqglEverything much cheaper there15:21
wolfspraulhe, only 1 button15:21
sqglI am not sure why15:21
wolfspraulwell it says 'rc-5' so it should work, yes15:21
wolfspraulwe'll find a nice small one, maybe include with each unit, or just for retail demo packages15:22
sqglHow many buttons/controls would the $1 one have?15:22
wolfspraulwhen I say 1 USD I mean China purchase price15:22
wolfspraulthat Canon thing there is a 1 USD control15:22
sqglCost to you.15:22
wolfspraulfor Canon :-)15:22
wolfspraulfor anybody15:22
wolfsprauljust need to buy directly in China15:22
wolfsprauldealextreme.com or so15:22
sqglWhich is what I do with less specialised items15:22
wolfspraullook at that15:23
wolfsprauldealextreme has the same thing for 3.66 USD15:23
wolfspraulwell maybe it's nice mechanical work, and a bit lower volume, so it's 2 USD if you buy direct from the factory15:24
wolfspraulbut anyway, rc-5 remote control will work, and is our idea for people who want to setup a demo15:24
sqglCompared to music, women are much more into visuals15:26
sqglI ran VJ workshops15:26
sqgl9 women bu tonly 1 guy15:26
wolfspraulyes we are thinking about marketing m1 as a dance visualizer15:27
sqglBut women don't go to Jaycar15:27
wolfspraulsomething like visikorg.com15:27
wolfspraulsorry visikord.com15:27
wolfspraulthis is a nice remote, very small http://www.jaecs.com.tw/Web/pddetail.asp?PID=1915:27
wolfspraulbut has a few buttons, I think 1 button is extreme15:28
wolfspraulneed to ask Sebastien what he thinks the ideal number of buttons on a milkyst one remote control should be15:28
sqglVisikord demo video is kind of interesting.15:33
sqglIt is just wo triggers, right?15:33
sqglIt is just two triggers, right?15:34
sqglMost of the work there is done in pre sequencing the FX15:34
wolfspraulI don't know much about visikord15:35
sqglWow, JMJ is a childhood her of mine that inspired me to get into music15:35
sqglbut the music in that video is cheeeeeeesy15:35
wolfspraulsebastien spoke with the guy a few times. I think it's a system built out of several components, and I don't think it's actually on sale.15:35
wolfspraulbut he definitely has some good ideas and maybe m1 can be marketed in that direction15:36
wolfspraulsebastien probably thought the most about it, he's not online right now I think15:36
sqglIn direct competition?15:36
sqglYou have potential for something more sophisticated as far as I can tell15:37
sqglBut more sophisticated does not mean more sales15:37
sqglI think Visikord has the right idea.15:37
sqglbut there must be similar apps for Wii now15:37
sqglNobody doing interesting work here combining VJ with live video performance.15:38
sqglI am it I think.15:39
sqglAnd now I know why.15:39
sqglBecause the technical side is so complicated.15:39
wolfsprauldon't know about competition15:39
sqglNobody else is mad enough.15:39
wolfspraulI never spoke to the visikord.com guy15:39
wolfspraulI don't know what he sees as competition or not15:39
wolfspraulthat's just 1 guy, and I don't think anything is selling15:39
wolfspraulmaybe m1 can actually help him, and he can market a set around m1? I don't know15:40
wolfspraulI am focusing on m1, because I manufacture that thing15:40
sqglThey probably thought of it and thought... no, not yet, let's wait until there are purpose built gadgets... like yours!15:40
wolfspraulI for sure don't see visikord as competition, no matter what he does :-)15:40
sqglI have not made a video lately.15:40
wolfspraulthat's because the potential market is huge, and what we really compete on is marketing smarts, strength of sales/distributor network, even financing (if it gets into retail)15:40
sqglBut ther is an old one here...15:41
sqglWhich seems to be quite popular15:41
sqglbut I am not happy because I did not have the audio/video mappings calibrated well.15:42
sqglSo you cannot really associate the dj'ing with the vj'ing15:43
sqglEven though that is supposed to be the point.15:43
sqglEery DJ knob tweak or button press also controls a visual Effect.15:43
sqglAlso, it only uses static jpgs. Now I use webcam and avi's.15:44
wolfspraulm1 can only use the live video-in stream right now, no static images or static (preloaded) videos15:44
sqglHmmm, that's disappointing.15:45
sqglI could use my existing Arkaos setup15:46
sqgland output to m1 instead of to projector15:46
sqglmq then goes to projector15:46
sqglm1 then goes to projector15:46
sqglSo it becomes another layer15:46
sqglI will go to Berlin in a few weeks (I hope) so I need to make my own demo video before I go.15:47
wolfspraulwell, first of all we work on a rock solid update feature :-) so you can plug in the Ethernet from m1 to your router, press a button, and m1 will update itself and reboot15:47
sqglProbably not a good time to mess abotu with a new gadget.15:47
wolfspraulsounds like a small thing, but that needs to work rock solid and super easy, then we can lift people from one update to another to add features15:47
wolfspraulif you go to Berlin, maybe there is a chance to meet Sebastien, if that's worth it for both you and him (don't know)15:48
sqglSounds good.15:48
sqglI will be linking with SHARE15:48
sqglI run the sydney chapter15:48
sqglThat might be a good way to build up credibility in the music scene.15:49
sqglAs a long term plan.15:49
wolfspraulshare.dj is nice15:49
wolfspraulyes definitely, please do15:49
sqglMaybe find one key person in each city to sell a unit at cost price to.15:50
wolfspraulgood thing that I sell units below cost, we wouldn't want to be that bad to anyone :-)15:50
wolfspraul(just kidding)15:50
sqglI understand markup would be about 4x15:51
sqglThat is normal15:51
wolfsprauldriving the price down is a joint task, including for me the manufacturer15:51
sqglfor good reasons15:51
sqglWhen I say "cost price"15:51
sqglI mean the hardware price.15:51
sqglwhich is a small portion of the overall cost.15:51
sqgleg you talking here is a "cost"15:52
sqglshippping, storage, testing, marketing, etc etc15:52
sqglI think the current price is already reasonable for the market15:53
sqglSorry, I mean for the musicain/VJ market15:54
sqglNot for the consumer dancey dance demo market though. I forgot about that angle.15:55
sqglYeah, it is too expensive for casual users.15:56
wolfspraulone by one15:56
sqglI should have said that before.15:56
sqglI wasn't thinking.15:56
wolfspraulI do agree on the need to drive price down, that's a feature. we will work on that feature.15:56
wolfspraulbut right now we don't even have the product launched yet15:56
sqglFor now the price is just fine for musicians.15:56
wolfspraulwe don't have the accessories complete15:56
wolfspraulwe are working on very important software features (like update)15:57
wolfspraulthose things get settled, then we start selling at 499 USD, then we drive the price down15:57
sqglI plan to be in Berlin for two months.15:57
sqglI am open to collaborations while there.15:58
sqglEven programming15:58
wolfsprauleven better15:58
wolfspraullet's see when Sebastien is back in this channel, his nick is lekernel. then you can go from there...15:58
sqglDoes Sebastian have a web site?15:58
sqglYou mean he owns the domain?15:59
wolfspraulthere's also lekernel.net15:59
sqglSo many good things come from Berlin.15:59
wolfspraulhe's the founder of the Milkymist project, and main developer to bring it to where it is today15:59
sqglSteinberg, Ableton, Native Instruments15:59
sqglAnd what is tha app that will pull apart the notes from a wav file for you?16:00
sqglFrom Munich16:00
wolfspraulno idea16:04
wolfspraulfor this youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqEnz0_lDo416:07
wolfspraulhow much time did it take you to make it?16:07
sqglThat is the other amazing DAW app from Germany16:30
sqglNobody knows how they can seperate out individual notes in a (say) a guitar chord.16:34
Action: sqgl is away: the real world is intruding18:00
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