#milkymist IRC log for Monday, 2011-05-30

xiangfuHi. what is the 'msd' mean? under http://www.milkymist.org/msd/msd-may2011.tar.bz203:03
xiangfulekernel, Hi06:57
xiangfuFallenou, hi06:59
xiangfuwe can recude the HeapSize for get a big ramdisk, right?06:59
lekernelhmm, I don't know07:08
lekernelto be honest, I don't really understand how the RTEMS heaps etc. work and why there are so many (apparently duplicate) parameters07:09
lekernelthere's also #define CONFIGURE_EXECUTIVE_RAM_SIZE (16*1024*1024) in flickernoise main.c07:10
lekernelwhich one is the actual heap size? apparently it's the one from linkcmds ...07:11
lekernelhmm CONFIGURE_EXECUTIVE_RAM_SIZE is for rtems objects and task stacks07:13
lekernelbtw, as I understand it, the ramdisk uses the heap07:14
xiangfuthat mean now. the ramdisk is 92M?07:17
xiangfuI can try to copy a 90MB file to milkymist for test :D07:28
lekernelshould be 92M minus other allocated memory on heap07:33
saardrimertweet finally made me join this channel ;)11:49
lekernelI'm Sebastien12:11
saardrimerhi Sebastien (sorry I was AFK attending to my plants)13:15
saardrimerI contacted you a while ago... this is me saardrimer.com13:16
saardrimeranyway, back then (March) I wasn't quite ready to talk about boldport in a public forum, so I didn't follow up. Now it's open... http://www.boldport.com13:22
saardrimerI was wondering what people here think of this, though: http://www.boldport.com/docs/fpgaproj13:22
saardrimerand how it may work for the Milkymist project13:22
lekernelwell, we already use a similar makefile-based flow. it's hand edited though :-)13:43
lekernelso, everything is online?13:45
lekernelwe can't run your tools without an internet connection?13:46
saardrimersure you can... it's a Makefile generator with MIT license13:48
saardrimeryou don't have to come back13:48
saardrimerwell, the generated Makefile is MIT licensed13:50
Action: kristianpaul needs a makefile for building custom mm1 socs13:52
saardrimerI don't believe in lock-ins https://www.boldport.com/blog/?p=10313:52
saardrimerI'm happy to help any project get started and use the boldport flow13:53
saardrimerI'm looking for early adopters13:53
lekernelbut we still have to go to boldport.com to regenerate the makefile (or hack it manually), right?13:53
kristianpaulhack it manually..13:54
kristianpaulgood point13:54
saardrimerwell, the idea is that you won't need to... but it isn't there yet... only for simple projects13:55
lekernelwhy not generate the makefiles from simple text files, like cmake does?13:55
lekerneland no web interface13:55
saardrimeryou may need to change some little things, but the bulk will be there13:55
lekernelor a web interface that generates that text file, but not the makefile13:56
saardrimerI think that the web interface is required for many users.13:56
lekerneloh well... if you can program FPGAs, you can edit source code13:56
saardrimerlekernel: I have an API that accepts a JSON file, and returns a Makefile, though it isn't ready yet.13:56
lekernelthis would just need reasonably good documentation13:57
saardrimerlekernel: that's a sweeping statement that I don't think is true.13:57
lekernelAPI that accepts a JSON file? so the makefile would still be generated on your server?13:58
saardrimerin other words, you could only store the json file and get a Makefile without needing to go through the web interface13:58
saardrimerlekernel: yes13:58
lekernelso if for whatever reason your server goes down, all users are somewhat in a mess to edit their projects13:59
lekernelsorry but we are not going to use that13:59
Action: kristianpaul dont like web based APIs13:59
kristianpaullook what google did with translator api ;)13:59
saardrimerthis is needed if you need to generate a NEW Makefile14:00
saardrimerotherwise it is similar to what you have today14:00
saardrimerexcept that the Makefile is more robust14:00
kristianpaulhow robust?14:00
kristianpauland how easy could be hack the makefile generated by software?14:01
lekernelyou always need to generate new makefiles. see, xilinx is already pushing the 7 series at an amazing pace after the disastrous 6 series.14:01
saardrimerthat's what I want to solve for you14:01
lekernelbesides, there are some privacy issues too. I don't want to have to tell your server all details about my FPGA projects.14:02
saardrimermy point is that you can generate it once, commit to the project, so you don't have to rely on the server being up "for all users"14:02
lekernelI have even hacked my ISE Webpack to thwart the always-on Webtalk feature14:02
saardrimerlekernel: like which? your paths and filenames?14:02
saardrimerfor an open source project that's a bit strange14:03
kristianpaulsaardrimer: how parametric is that makefile after been generated?14:03
saardrimervery. take a look... it on;y take a couple of click. no registration.14:04
kristianpaulyeah clicking right now.. still clicking ;)14:04
saardrimerload an example project (project_zero)14:04
lekernelit's SaaS, basically.14:04
kristianpaulcan you switch to agplv3 license btw?14:05
kristianpaulwhat you do with our stats?14:05
saardrimergo to "Make" and hit "Generate Makefile"14:05
lekernelkristianpaul: I'm not questioning the MIT license, just the SaaS approach.14:05
kristianpauli'm questioning data retention :-)14:06
kristianpaulif there is one of course14:06
saardrimeryou can save projects and recipes if you register and are logged in14:07
kristianpauli like the idea, just wondering all the implication before try14:07
lekernelsaardrimer: nevertheless SaaS tools are not acceptable for Milkymist when there is a working alternative.14:13
lekernelalso, I hope we'll switch the synthesis to LLHDL some day :-) (which I will continue developing when I have sold a couple thousand M1s)14:15
saardrimerlekernel: sure. It's not quite 100% SaaS because I'm not actually running the tools for you... but just know that it exists, and like I said, I'm happy to help if there's a need.14:15
saardrimerI am an experienced Verilog FPGA designer too ;)14:16
lekernelsaardrimer: btw, if you dislike the EDA tools you are welcome to contribute to LLHDL/Antares, the free toolchain I have started writing14:21
lekernelcontrary to tools like Boldport, there is most probably zero money to be made, but it's fun to hack on.14:21
saardrimerlekernel: link?14:22
saardrimerlekernel: :D14:22
lekernelit's on my github https://github.com/sbourdeauducq14:22
saardrimerI still haven't figured how to make money from boldport ;)14:22
saardrimerbut I'm encouraged by your comment!14:22
saardrimerone of my goals is to help people use EDA tools that they may not have heard of, but are as good as the alternative.14:23
lekernelhopefully, if I sell tons of M1s, I can fund those things.14:23
lekernelbut I'm not quite getting there today, unfortunately14:23
saardrimerso I could add them to the software stack support at boldport14:23
lekerneloh, well, it's way too soon to promote the llhdl tools this way14:26
lekernelthey just don't work yet14:26
saardrimermaybe one day ;)14:26
saardrimerlekernel: how many M1's have you sold, if it's not a secret?14:35
lekernelabout 4014:35
saardrimerand you're aiming for a 1000?14:36
lekernelno, i'm aiming for 4000014:36
saardrimerwhy aren't people buying?14:37
lekernelbecause they don't know about it14:37
saardrimerso only 40 potential users turned buyers know about Milkymist?14:38
Fallenouwell the price is not like an arduino :)14:39
Fallenouthat's also one of the reason14:39
lekernelyeah, but I would phrase that one less diplomatically as "most makers are incompetent freetards"14:39
Fallenoubut compared to other fpga boards, it's a normal price14:39
Fallenoueven a low price compared to other SP6 boards I may add14:40
wolfspraulsaardrimer: chronologically, there was an rc1, the very first manufacturing of this design14:40
wolfspraulwe made 614:40
wolfspraulall 6 booted, but all 6 had various major problems14:40
wolfspraulthose were all unsellable and we never planned to sell them14:40
wolfspraulthen there was an rc2, including everything we learnt from rc114:40
wolfspraulwe made 40, 33 turned out to be sellable (luckily, all rc1 bugs got fixed with no regressions)14:40
wolfspraulthose 33 were all sold14:41
wolfspraulwe are a little behind on rc3, ideally we would have rc3 ready now14:41
wolfspraulbut I think it's another 4-6 weeks14:41
saardrimerhmmm... I'm not sure that the software-borrowed "RC" versioning works well for hardware you want to sell14:42
wolfspraulrc3 is a huge step forward from rc2, in all areas not just hardware design fixes, but also massive software progress, accessories, box, etc.14:42
wolfspraulit works very well, I think you understood me :-)14:43
wolfspraulfrom a marketing perspective, there has not been a 'launch' yet14:43
wolfspraulrc2 was sold in a chaotic way, some as boards only without case, some with unassembled case kits, with varying accessories, etc.14:43
wolfspraulnot chaotic because we are chaotic, but because rc2 allowed people to join this project at a very early stage14:44
wolfspraulwith rc3 we must lift this thing to the next level, get some of those products in front of buyers from retail stores, in front of product managers of companies who see business potential, in whatever way14:44
wolfspraulI'm just explaining the 'productization' because you asked about numbers, and Sebastien said we need to sell 'thousands' which of course we do.14:45
wolfspraulwhat's holding the success down right now, imho, is:14:45
wolfspraulsuccessful launch14:45
wolfspraulquickly find a strong marketing partner or strong retail chain that is willing to share some growth risks14:46
wolfspraul'quickly' meaning within 6 months or so, that would be ideal14:46
wolfspraulfor price, we launch at 499 USD14:46
saardrimerwolfspraul: thanks for the info.14:47
wolfspraulthen we need to bring down the costs on the manufacturing side, first of all to create a retail margin14:47
wolfspraulif someone would come now and want to buy 10, 50, 100 or more, we could probably work out a nice margin quickly14:47
saardrimerwhat do you mean by "need"... is that to recover the investment some project members have put in?14:47
saardrimer(as in "need to sell")14:47
lekernelfwiw, the somehow comparable edirol v4 is 3 times the price of the M1 and they sold 4000014:48
wolfspraulthe retail price needs to be driven down too, let's say 399 USD as the next step, but that should be 12 months out or so since it's more important to increase value for the user first, and build the distribution network14:48
lekernelbut edirol doesn't suck at publicity as much as we do14:48
wolfspraul'need' as in support our activities moving forward, we have a todo list that is so long I won't even begin to list it here14:48
saardrimeryeah, success isn't about technological superiority (unfortunately)14:49
wolfspraulthat's fine by me14:49
wolfspraulsuccess is about creating value for the buyer, and getting that message across efficiently14:49
wolfspraulthat's a bit magic too, I like it14:49
wolfspraulsome people are successful at selling nothing, why not14:49
wolfspraulI like magicians :-)14:50
saardrimerso how do you plan to stop sucking at publicity?14:51
lekernelget marketing people on board14:52
lekernelwrite tons of press releases and articles ourselves14:52
lekernelfind large buyers who would invest in the product and resell14:52
saardrimersounds like a startup14:53
saardrimerare you treating it as such?14:53
lekernelthat could describe it in many ways, yeah14:55
wolfspraulI'm a bit more careful about 'publicity' than Sebastien probably. If more publicity means that expectations are going up, we may shoot ourselves in the foot.14:55
wolfspraulso I'm more worried about expectation management14:55
wolfsprauland finding buyers early on that love the product and tell their friends about it14:55
wolfspraulwe haven't been that crazy successful at that, imo14:55
wolfspraulI'm sold out of products right now14:55
saardrimerI too like to use "expectation management" ;)14:55
wolfspraulbut from the ones I sold, I'd say 80% have disappeared into a drawer somewhere14:56
wolfspraulthat's bad14:56
lekernelwolfspraul: probably, having the case and the new "out of the box" software will help.14:56
wolfspraulsure, it will14:56
saardrimerright. Maybe you should be selling is for *more* money?14:56
wolfspraulI'm very optimistic :-)14:56
wolfspraulSebastien sinks his time and passion into this project, I sink my savings into it :-)14:56
wolfspraul499 USD is a good price14:57
saardrimerwolfspraul: :)14:57
wolfspraulI'm a manufacturer, technology is about driving prices down14:57
wolfspraulI don't like luxury technology, actually I hate it14:57
wolfspraulluxury is for other goods, not technology14:57
saardrimerthat really depends who you're selling against14:57
lekernelmounting the case and reflashing isn't hard, but a lot of people have very little motivation to start with ...14:57
wolfspraulso we start at 499, need to build out the product, in terms of yield, accessories, etc.14:57
saardrimerand what's the total market for the product14:57
wolfspraullots of numbers moving in the background14:57
wolfspraulthen we need to have a retail margin14:57
wolfspraulI sell for 499 USD now, shipping with fedex to end users14:58
wolfspraulbut if I sell to retail, I cannot charge 499 USD of course14:58
wolfspraul499 is the base that lets me work on those things - accessories, yield, retail margin14:58
wolfspraulI need to stabilize all that first14:58
wolfspraulthen bring the price down14:58
wolfspraulin parallel of course we work on increasing value (real or perceived) with our buyers14:59
wolfspraulthat's separate14:59
wolfspraulall normal stuff imo14:59
wolfspraulsaardrimer: we are marketing it as a 'video synthesizer' now, which I think is genius14:59
wolfspraulbefore it was an 'interactive VJ station' but that was hard to chew on, too much to digest15:00
wolfspraulreaction was "oh, I'm not a VJ, so it's not for me"15:00
saardrimerwolfspraul: there's an explicit joke in there somewhere ;)15:00
wolfspraulas a video synthesizer, potential market size is easily tens of thousands of units15:00
saardrimersounds like a right move15:00
wolfspraulmusicians (hobby or professional), night clubs, bars15:01
wolfspraulcan be used at conferences to entertain people in breaks15:01
wolfspraulas always - theoretically a lot of things are imaginable, now it depends on execution15:02
wolfspraultime is limited, the world is big15:02
saardrimerwolfspraul: I know!15:02
wolfspraulthat's why we need a strong marketing partner asap, as soon as we have a complete product up and running, with software, accessories, box, etc.15:03
wolfspraulin which way do you want to help?15:03
saardrimerIf only I was good at marketing, boldport.com would be in a better place... ;)15:04
wolfspraulI share lekernel's feedback about that15:04
saardrimernot that it's bad now, just "launched" it a few weeks ago15:04
saardrimerwolfspraul: which part?15:05
wolfspraulwhich may still make it a good business, but from our 'independence' standpoint, nah - doesn't fit :-)15:05
saardrimerwolfspraul: I don't quite agree with your view, to be honest.15:05
wolfspraullooks like a convoluted way to get boldport into the game15:05
saardrimerfor Milkymist, maybe15:05
lekernelsaardrimer: what view? total open source?15:06
saardrimerI knew it would hard to get existing projects to convert15:06
saardrimerlekernel: no ;)15:06
wolfspraulyou worked for Xilinx before, right? so you must have a 'typical' Xilinx customer in mind who would think that boldport is great15:06
wolfspraulI have no idea about the typical xilinx or even fpga customer15:07
saardrimerthe view that using boldport makes you dependant on it15:07
saardrimerwolfspraul: yeah, I've worked for Xilinx for a few years15:07
wolfspraulsaardrimer: from a business/investor standpoint, I can tell you that many people would agree with the line that goes "you cannot make money with tools"15:07
saardrimerwolfspraul: yes, that might be true. Let's see... I'm giving it a shot.15:08
wolfspraulit was proven wrong a few times, but overall I can see the logic why tools is extremely hard15:08
wolfspraulthere was this horrible Windows company many years ago - InstallShield15:09
wolfsprauleverything about it was crap15:09
wolfspraulbut they made money like crazy15:10
wolfspraulit was just a small niche in tools that many people didn't want to touch, so InstallShield gained a reputation for taking this nasty problem from developers' plates15:10
wolfspraulmaybe boldport has a chance along those lines - maybe lots of people hate this problem you are trying to solve and will happily outsource it to you? don't know15:11
saardrimerthere are parallels to boldport there, except that I don't plan on it sucking.15:11
wolfspraulwell, InstallShield worked, if you remember or even know it :-)15:11
wolfspraulthat was a very successful 'tools' business, at least15:11
saardrimeryeah, I know it15:11
wolfspraulthey sold the company for a few hundred million USD, I think15:12
wolfspraulgood timing too :-)15:12
saardrimertiming is important.15:12
lekernelreminds me of this thawte crap which gave us ubuntu ... lol15:12
saardrimerboldport is something I wanted to build based on my view of a problem people have that needs solving.15:13
wolfspraulwrong, 76 million USD, but still15:13
wolfspraulman, Macrovision bought InstallShield for 76 million USD in 200415:14
wolfspraulhow stupid are those Macrovision managers?15:14
saardrimerso it's build, now I want to figure out how to make it successful.15:14
wolfspraulin 2008, they handed it over to some private equity firm to get rid of it15:14
wolfspraulanyway sorry I didn't mean to trashtalk boldport15:15
wolfspraulInstallShield was just the memory that popped into my brain15:15
wolfspraulin a good way, since they made 76 million USD in the end (and probably more before since it was very profitable)15:16
wolfspraulyou are probably solving some problem, although I wouldn't know which one :-)15:16
wolfspraultell Werner (one of our guys here) that he has to click through a web interface (!) to generate a Makefile15:16
wolfspraulthe good guy may finally get his heart attack15:16
wolfspraulthat's blasphemy!15:16
saardrimertrashtalk away... getting NEGATIVE feedback is that hardest thing for me right now!15:17
saardrimerwell, trashtalk to me, not to others ;)15:17
lekernelon the other hand:15:18
lekernel1) the ISE project navigator is one big piece of crapware you are replacing with something most probably better15:19
lekernel2) normal FPGA people do not do free software and would be less reluctant to use that web interface/SaaS thingy15:19
lekernelso you could still make it successful15:20
saardrimer:) I hope so15:20
saardrimerlike I said, the web-interface will be optional at some point. you'll be able to have a json file for the project state and that will give you a "build environment"15:21
saardrimerthrough an API, or...15:21
lekernelyeah but it's still SaaS15:21
saardrimerif you pay for an offline version.15:21
saardrimeryes, it is, not not how it's used most often.15:22
saardrimerbut not15:22
saardrimeronce you've generated a Makefile you don't need boldport again15:22
saardrimerif you don't want to15:22
saardrimerwolfspraul: who are you IRL?15:45
saardrimerin real life15:46
wolfsprauldon't understand your question15:47
wolfspraulI'm real, no bot :-)15:47
wolfspraulI'm manufacturing Milkymist One15:47
saardrimerok, what should I put in the google textbox in order to find out abut you?15:47
saardrimermore about you15:48
wolfspraullet me see what comes up there15:48
wolfspraulI never care :-)15:48
wolfspraulhe, all sorts of things. well, my name is quite unique, when you see 'wolfgang spraul', it's probably me15:51
wolfspraulI am manufacturing hardware the last few years15:51
wolfspraulso I work on things like sourcing, production testing, hardware quality (iqc/oqc), logistics, sales15:52
saardrimerwhere are you based?15:53
Fallenouyou want to kill him or what ? :p15:53
Fallenouname and adderss !15:53
Fallenougps location15:53
Fallenoulaunching missile15:53
saardrimernah, that's as far as I take it15:53
saardrimerwe had a decent chat, and it would be nice to know who I was chatting with15:54
saardrimerif they are willing to say15:54
Fallenouwas just joking around15:55
wolfspraulyou can google me, after some years in technology nowadays we all leave so many traces, it's foolish to try to erase/hide them, and why even15:55
wolfspraulplus I'm in Beijing China, you learn the importance of your middle finger here15:56
wolfspraulsend whatever you want my way, I deal with it. I do it anyway every day.15:56
saardrimerI'm mostly asking to avoid embarrassment, to be fair, so to avoid having conversations with two entities and then finding out that they are the same person.15:57
wolfspraulthat'd be funny, but rather unlikely, no?15:58
wolfspraul7 billion people out there...15:58
saardrimerI'm more talking about twitter/blog/IRC intersection15:58
saardrimerand meeting people in real life15:59
wolfspraulthat's why I use (almost) my real name everywhere now, wolfgang_spraul is too long so I use 'wolfspraul' as my nick, for example15:59
saardrimerme too15:59
wolfspraulso I don't have to tell people I'm abc here, xyz there, etc.15:59
wolfspraulyep, we seem to have the same system :-)15:59
saardrimerback to boldport-ish stuff. If you can set aside what you think of the "boldport flow"... I'm interested in feedback on my FPGA project structure proposal here: http://www.boldport.com/docs/fpgaproj16:05
saardrimeras developers of a decently sized FPGA project, your feedback is quite valuable!16:06
wolfspraulnot mine, as I have zero experience with this16:07
wolfspraulI'm just the manufacturing guy16:07
wolfsprauland before that I did software development, kernel and above, never touched HDLs16:07
kristianpauli give up no more clicks on web interfaces..16:13
kristianpaulsorry saardrimer16:13
kristianpaulmay be 3 years i could done it :-)16:13
saardrimerkristianpaul: not sure I fully parse that, but I get the gist of it ;)16:18
wpwrakbah, my motto is "one Makefile to rule them all". which evil overlord would accept a web site as his regent, because he's too feeble of mind to write his own Makefile ? :)16:40
Action: wpwrak continues editing world-domination/Makefile16:41
kristianpaulsorry, 3 years ago i meant saardrimer16:42
kristianpaul(I'm abc here, xyz there, etc.)oh yes :-)16:47
kristianpaulalso you can be xyz there and not link it to abc :)16:47
lekernel_lol, opencores is spamming again for this openrisc asic crap-project20:46
saardrimerlekernel_: why do you think it's crap?20:48
lekernel_it was already discussed here and there are lots of reasons...20:49
lekernel_first they won't pull it off technically20:50
lekernel_then even from people who did20:50
lekernel_then even people who did pull it off (e.g. OpenSPARC and LEON, who _did_ manufacture free ASICs, regardless the lies you can find on opencores) did not lead the announced revolution20:51
lekernel_the process is also super obscure, the money goes directly to orsoc ab without any control20:52
lekernel_they claim they are representing the "opencores community" when in fact it's only 2 or 3 people from orsoc who decided this thing, without any prior discussion with any opencores members20:53
lekernel_how did they compute the total amount of money they needed?20:54
lekernel_how will they use it?20:54
saardrimerhmmm... third Q/A is a bit dubious indeed http://opencores.com/donation,faq20:57
saardrimerthe fact that they are trying shuold be held against them, though20:59
lekernelah, they added new Q/A entries since last time I checked20:59
lekernelthis thing isn't even worth being looked at21:00
saardrimerI'm not a huge opencores fan... not trying to defend them, but the treatment should be fair21:00
saardrimeroh, I mean *shouldn't* be held against them21:01
saardrimerthey would have had better luck on kickstarter but maybe that didn't quite fit for their plans21:08
lekernelwhy are they lying? why ignore opensparc and leon, who got further than them?21:10
lekernelalso, if you have ever tried to use opencores ip, you could probably agree that claiming they will ship http://cdn.opencores.org/img/asic_block.png in any reasonable time is like claiming we are going to ship a competitor to the Boeing 747 by the next year21:13
saardrimerI agree with that fully. I wrote something to that effect here: https://www.boldport.com/docs/fpgaproj/21:15
saardrimer"Design reuse, therefore, can be difficult and frustrating, diminishing its appeal2. (For the experience, I suggest that the reader integrate a few random cores from OpenCores.org and a couple from an FPGA vendor.) "21:15
lekernelthe DRAM controller they are planning to use is already crippled with bugs when targeting SDR SDRAM on a FPGA21:15
lekernelhow can they possibly think about DDR2 in ASIC?21:15
saardrimer"shipped to the OpenCores donors by Q1 2012" made me chuckle.21:16
lekernelyeah well21:16
lekernel"crap-project" sums it up pretty well21:16
saardrimerWell, objectively, I think that main issue for me is that the target is too high, and plan B mostly benefits them (even though they can spin it that it benefits "the community")21:19
saardrimermy main issue with opencores, though, is that there is near zero domain-specific quality control.21:20
lekernels/domain-specific// s/control//21:20
lekerneli never used anything from there which really worked21:21
saardrimerthere's absolutely no reason to use an antiquated SVN host when we have services that are orders of magnitude better.21:21
saardrimerlekernel: :)21:21
lekernelyeah, that too21:21
lekerneland the login wall21:22
lekernelto their credit, the openrisc core appears to be somewhat working, though it's very slow and bloated21:23
saardrimerthat's because that is what they make money from21:23
lekernelbut besides that... there's plasma and aemb, which are remotely serious21:24
lekernelboth being experimental and relatively small hobby projects, though.21:24
lekernelall the rest just fucking doesn't work21:24
lekernelbtw you can also have a look at http://www.ohwr.org/ which has more serious stuff posted to it, and also doesn't have login wall etc.21:33
saardrimerhow is this different than hosting a project on github (or equivalent)?21:40
saardrimeror, rather, how is it better?21:40
lekerneli'd say the main benefit is to be visible as an open source hardware project. github has tons of stuff posted to it, and it's damn hard to find anything on it.21:41
lekernelin fact, on github, it's mostly web-related stuff that get direct exposure21:42
lekernel4/5 of the "Trending Repos" are web related21:43
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