#milkymist IRC log for Saturday, 2011-05-07

CIA-48flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r7433d6b / (src/sysconfig.c src/sysettings.c): Full network settings dialog box - http://bit.ly/kXDQOP00:13
wolfspraulwpwrak: saw your comment about iqc in the backlog :-)00:21
wolfspraulthis is probably more qi/copyleft hw specific, not milkymist specific, hope people on this channel don't mind00:22
wolfspraulbut... here's my experience on iqc in manufacturing00:22
wolfspraulcompare to driving a car and a car accident. the accident happens _although_ you make a lot of precautions.00:23
wolfspraulso the argument "I wear no selt belt because I always drive carefully" just doesn't work.00:23
wolfspraulseat belt00:23
wolfspraulin manufacturing, you really have to embrace the concept that every run is different00:23
wpwrakwolfspraul: (iqc) your comments to qc (with the ben-wpan production) had that feeling of "recently burnt" ;-)00:23
wolfspraulevery piece of physical hw is a new one00:23
wolfspraulnot at al00:23
wolfspraulit's always the same thing00:23
wolfspraulbut it's a fundamental conceptual difference between sw and hw00:24
wolfspraulso many sw people just don't get their minds around it00:24
wolfspraul"let's switch vendors to REALLY GOOD ONES"00:24
wolfspraulthat kind of thing00:24
wolfspraulwon't help00:24
wolfspraul"let's switch all components to gold"00:24
wpwrakmaybe a little ...00:24
wolfspraul100% gold, just in case! :-)00:24
wolfspraulso the problem is that every run, every piece, is a totally new piece00:25
wolfspraulwith a sw mindset you try to solve it fundamentally "once and for all"00:25
wolfspraulbecause in sw that's how it works00:25
wpwrakbut if you run into a lot of such problems, this may also mean that your tolerances are too narrow00:25
wolfspraulit may mean many things. if we find this bad beads now - that's bad.00:26
wolfspraulI'm curious to see what's the root cause in the end.00:27
lekernelit's the bead - period. their DC resistance is too high.00:27
wpwrakyes, i wonder what's up with those beads00:27
wolfsprauland the most annoying thing is, and that's what keeps me thinking about iqc, whatever we do now, there will be new component problems in rc300:27
wpwraklekernel: do you have several of them ?00:27
wolfspraulthink of the car accident...00:28
lekernelwolfspraul: one order of magnitude above specified maximum resistance isn't tolerance00:28
wolfspraullekernel: yes sure, I believe you. and actually it's a creat catch - thanks a lot!00:28
wolfspraulannoying component quality problems :-) but that's how it is...00:28
wolfspraulwpwrak: what I tried to tell you is that this iqc thing tries to catch not a systematic problem, but a sporadic one00:29
wolfspraulit's like the seat belt in a car00:29
wolfspraulyou don't know when you need it, or where exactly it will be needed00:29
wpwrakif some of those beads (same shipment) are still around but unsoldered, it may be worth checking them. wouldn't be the first time that a component only goes bad in reflow, and this may point to other issues, such as a mismatched profile00:30
wolfspraulagreed, can be many root causes00:30
wpwrakwolfspraul: (iqc) yes, i understand. basically catch the ones that are broken or out of spec.00:31
wolfspraulalso human error00:31
wpwrakwolfspraul: okay, and wrong labels ;-)00:31
wolfsprauland the nice thing about human error is that every time it's a different kind/shape :-)00:31
wolfsprauland another 1000 options00:31
wolfspraul"oh, I thought..."00:31
wpwrakfamous last words :)00:32
wolfspraulI looked at those 10 measurement tables from Adam again, and 5V on the board seems to low across all of them00:33
wolfspraultoo low00:33
wolfspraullekernel: do you think we should remove the beads?00:36
wpwrakwhen the device was tested for emc compliance, were these beads already there ?00:38
wpwrakah, and is the problem now just the beads or both, the beads and the protection circuit ?00:39
wolfspraulmaybe just the beads00:49
wolfspraulyes they were there in emi testing00:49
wpwrak(emi testing) then removing the may backfire. better if you can find out what went wrong01:10
kristianpaulhmm, wonder if there is an alredy wishbone cross bar bus implementation, that *may* leads to build an network switch..02:38
kristianpaul2 Layer switch at least :)02:38
kristianpauloh well..02:41
kristianpaulhmm at cern.. terpstra :-)02:57
kristianpaulso, mimimac2 core is currently been forked to make something else :)03:09
kristianpaulseems the ethernet phy tranceiver is quite similar in protocols to the sige chip :D03:10
lekernelwolfspraul: as wpwrak said...07:34
lekernelnot sure what it's going to do EMC-wise07:34
lekernelif it's still ok without yeah remove them07:34
lekernelless sources of problems07:34
wolfspraullekernel: you mean adam should test removing them, and if the board still works and looks good, we remove them in rc3?09:05
wolfspraulon the emc side, I am not so worried about unknowns. only if someone has a strong feeling, from knowledge or experience, that they could indeed worsen emc a lot on our board, then we should be careful09:06
wolfspraulthat doesn't seem to be the case yet.09:06
lekernelwolfspraul: we could do that, yes10:19
lekernelnext time we'll go to EMC without any beads and add them only if we get problems... we went a bit too fast here10:20
wolfspraulI don't see which keynote Jon meant to show m1 at... http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/2011/program/10:41
wolfspraulI see two talks for Jon, maybe he means the one at 5 PM on Friday, or maybe something entirely different10:41
wolfspraulwe first need to get the facts straight before we can claim something10:42
wolfspraulmy current headline for the release is a simple 'Milkymist One video synthesizer shown at 6th Libre Graphics Meeting in Montreal'10:42
wolfspraulthat's a very standard press release like issued by the dozen from normal companies, but we can walk through the exercise once if we get enough facts for it together actually :-)10:43
lekernelwell, let's ask him10:48
CIA-48flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * rdc31fa5 / src/sysettings.c : sysettings: autostart mode - http://bit.ly/kCISCQ12:05
CIA-48flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r339fec4 / (src/cp.c src/main.c src/performance.c src/performance.h): Simple performance working - http://bit.ly/kgqOY212:52
lekernelwolfspraul: switching through all patches on flash with the pushbutton works now12:53
lekernelmaybe it can also detect if a video signal is present and skip the video-in patches if not?12:54
lekernelthat's a little bit messy though so maybe later ...12:56
lekernelthis thing is definitely best used with the camera anyway12:56
wpwraklekernel: (video in) maybe display an indicator ? "PATCH USES VIDEO IN - IS IT CONNECTED ?" (make it disappear after a while). lazy implementation: just show "PATCH USES VIDEO IN" for a few seconds and don't even try to detect the video. so people know at least what's wrong if they don't get much of a result.13:09
lekernelthe (slightly) messy parts are a) retrieving cleanly whether a video signal is present b) determining if a patches uses video in13:10
lekernelso this does not help :)13:10
wpwrakthis would allow you to ignore a) for a while :)13:22
wpwraksee also my suggestion on #qi-hardware: add a LED at each input and turn it on if the input is selected13:23
wpwrak(i know you'll hate anything that smells of hw changes ;-)13:23
wolfspraullekernel: nice, you are fast :-)13:30
lekernelwpwrak: yeah but such messages popping up all the time would be very annoying to the user in the end13:30
wolfspraulI was thinking about one message, appearing for a few seconds right after switching to the next patch, that says13:32
wolfspraul"Milkymist - patch_name by patch_author"13:32
wpwraklekernel: (message) you could let them slowly fade away, decrease by 5% each time you show it :) (and have a config option somewhere, for those who want the warning always/never)13:32
wolfspraulthat way we have the most important stuff covered, all in one line13:32
lekernelthe demo firmware (without rtems, gui, etc.) already does that13:33
lekernelbut really this would be a mere annoyance in live situations13:33
lekernelso that's one thing I deliberately left out when porting the render code to flickernoise13:34
wpwrakin live situations, it would have to be very discreet, indeed13:35
wpwraklekernel: how do you like the LEDs idea ? maybe for rc413:44
CIA-48flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r56a75ab / src/config.c : config: fix problem with last line read twice - http://bit.ly/jckw0n13:45
lekernelnaah no more PCB spins13:45
lekernelmaybe in a major one, if/when we switch to xilinx 7 series, implement a complicated power supply and replace the adv7181 that is phasing out already13:46
lekernel(read: not anytime soon)13:46
wolfsprauladv7181 is phasing out?13:47
wolfspraulexpect problems there at some point? normally these things remain available for many years, but I didn't check in detail on that one.13:47
wolfspraulbtw I started to work on http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Press_Release:_Milkymist_One_video_synthesizer_shown_at_6th_Libre_Graphics_Meeting_in_Montreal13:55
wolfspraulneed to fill in a lot more13:55
wolfspraulmy goal is to make this a complete typical press release, with all the bits and pieces you typically need13:55
wolfspraulthen run it through the system once (i.e. distribute to journalists and submit stories)13:56
wolfspraulI don't expect much uptake because the story is rather dry, but it's a very typical story so we can exercise the process once13:56
wolfspraul'very typical' in the sense that companies spit out this type of small news every day13:56
wolfspraulbut we first need to make it complete, and get all facts straight. And the actual m1 usage must happen, otherwise we loose our credibility.13:57
lekernelmention a few features maybe? twitter wall, milkdrop stuff...14:03
lekernelrejon: hi16:23
rejonhi lekernel16:32
rejonin montreal16:32
rejonyes, i have to figure out the details of my presentation16:32
rejoni will push to go on thurs16:32
rejongot my milkymist here16:32
rejoni didn't get pictures with jeri16:33
rejonbut i did see pictures others took16:33
CIA-48flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r0c9cf94 / src/firstpatch.c : firstpatch: update text on dialog open - http://bit.ly/kxUNxP17:38
lekernelyay. flash subdirectory bug fixed.18:13
CIA-48rtems-milkymist: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r93fd6c5 / (14 files in 14 dirs): Consistent use of printk + fix compiler warnings - http://bit.ly/jXFCar19:55
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