#milkymist IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-03-16

lekernelmethril: :)09:20
methrillekernel, morning09:57
methrilgoing to work bbl09:58
wolfspraulmethril: congrats that you got your board!10:30
wolfsprauland thanks a lot for the financial support too.10:30
wolfspraulevery dollar helps :-)10:30
wolfspraulhow much Brazil taxes/fees did you have to pay on your side?10:31
lekernelkanzure_: nice page http://heybryan.org/semiconductor.html10:46
methril_workwolfspraul, thank you11:08
methril_workwolfspraul, i have to11:08
methril_workwe where lucky, we paid 60% in import taxes (of declared value, but sometimes they look for the product and they apply the taxes for the searched price)11:09
methril_workand some mor R$ in other taxes + the fedex duty services11:10
wolfspraulmethril_work: what was the total you paid on your side?11:12
wolfspraulit's not so easy with 'declared' or 'searched' price. A product can have many valuations, depending on who looks at it, who pays, lends, loans, gives away, etc. etc.11:12
wolfspraulso I am usually just trying to understand the total, and how we can bring it down :-)11:13
methril_workin brazil is hard to get it down11:13
methril_workthe only way is producing something here11:13
wolfsprauldo you know the toal in R$ you had to pay for this shipment, including everybody's fees/taxes ?11:14
methril_workwas 254,56 R$ (around 145.5 $)11:15
Fallenoukristianpaul: have you looked at your synthesis.log ?11:15
wolfspraulok great, that's not too bad11:15
methril_workbut they apply the 60% taxes over the bill price11:16
Fallenoukristianpaul: I still think it's a valuable piece of information for everybody, you should just git add it in your github repo, could seem weird for anyone to commit compile log, but for me it's interesting to access current synthesis log without having to synthetize it myself :)11:16
lekernelmethril_work: for any import, from any country? they add 60%?11:18
lekernelyou see aeris: french customs aren't the worst in the world :)11:18
methril_worklekernel, for technology they do11:19
lekernelhmm... sounds weird. any reason for doing so?11:19
lekernellimite asian imports?11:20
methril_workthey said that they promote local manufacturing11:20
Fallenou60% ? that's crazy11:20
Fallenouit's not *promoting* local production11:20
Fallenouit's KILLING importation11:20
methril_worki know11:21
methril_workand the import companies comply about the dollar/brazil real going up, not about the crazy taxes11:21
methril_workthis is the reason why i`m not selling qi- products here :(11:22
lekernelmethril_work: so what kind of computers and such do you have in Brazil?11:27
lekernelexpensive ones, or locally made ones?11:28
methril_workif you have a good salary expensive ones, otherwise locally ones (and not so confident)11:28
lekernelhow do the Brazilian computers look like?11:29
methril_worksome people goes to Paraguay to bough at the same price in US11:29
methril_workthe same11:29
methril_workalmos all asian computer manufacturer has some kind of production here11:29
methril_workand this goes the price a little bit down11:30
Fallenouisn't it in brazil that they sell computers with windows clone based on linux ?11:31
methril_workFallenou, i don`t know11:33
methril_worki  never bought a computer here11:34
methril_workmine comes from Spain11:34
methril_workwhat i know about this is what my colleagues tell me, and what i see on the company11:34
methril_workhere they promote his Linux distro11:35
methril_workbut i see a lot of cracked windows, more than Linux looking like Wins11:36
Fallenouhumm ok11:36
FallenouI saw that on TV11:36
Fallenoubut it wasn't brazil maybe11:37
methril_workmaybe they promote this, but the reality is other11:37
wolfspraulmercedes has a whole department whose function is to disassemble and reassemble cars to reduce customs payments11:44
wolfspraulhundreds of people11:44
wolfspraulfor every country you do a little bit differently, depending on whatever regulations they wrote up11:44
wolfspraulin the end everybody just maximizes their dollars11:44
wolfspraulI won't get stuck on this, I just do the same :-)11:44
wolfspraulif we would all stop unnecessary and redundant work, maybe 80% of the world population would be jobless11:44
wolfspraulwho knows11:45
aerislekernel, lapin compris13:22
lekernelin Brazil, customs add 60%13:22
aerisAh, OK13:23
wolfspraullekernel: yes, but the real question is how it is actually enforced. It seems to be rather strict though.13:25
wolfspraulI give you an example :-)13:25
wolfspraullet's say a product is sold in some online shop in the US for 499 USD13:25
wolfspraula distributor in Brazil buys 20 units of that product, he gets a volume discount13:26
wolfspraulhow much? hard to say13:26
wolfspraulwhat if the volume discount is 80%?13:26
wolfspraulwhat if the distributor also pays for consulting services in conjunction with the product?13:26
wolfspraulfor example - he pays 20*20%(100USD) + 8000 USD consulting services :-)13:27
wolfspraulwill Brazil customs accept that?13:27
wolfspraulthe way customs calculates the basis for customs fees is difficult, and it's a legal thing. so you cannot just take a number you see in an online shop as the basis.13:27
wolfspraulof course everybody is trying to avoid paying duties, so there are very clear rules for this, but those rules is what matters, not the nominal number '60%'13:28
wolfspraulcountries like Brazil are the reason many large companies have disassembly/reassembly units, to make stuff pass in the most economical way13:29
wolfspraulof course we could do the same, if it is worth to find out the rules to that degree, given our volumes13:29
wolfspraulso we could disassemble m1, and ship the parts in separate shipments13:30
lekernellet's get that to the US first :)13:30
wolfspraulif we need more money from our Brazil distributor, there are many legal and used-all-the-time things like consulting fees, training services, marketing cooperation, etc.13:30
wolfspraulmeanwhile the parts are shipped at very low component prices (even those with volume discounts, of course :-))13:31
wolfspraulit's a stupid game, but it was setup like this and it's 'legal', meaning that we have to follow, and pay13:31
wolfspraulI always feel these kinds of customs rules mainly benefit one party, that is government employees and bureaucracy.13:32
wolfspraulfor them it's really a lot of new work, and genuine new income13:32
wolfsprauleverybody else suffers, the end consumers the most of course13:32
wolfspraulthe main markets for m1, in my opinion, are:13:36
wolfspraul1) Europe (EU)13:36
wolfspraul2) USA13:36
wolfspraul3) Japan13:36
wolfspraul4) Russia, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea (maybe)13:37
wolfspraulthe rest is all one-off stuff imho, unless there is a really active person/distributor somewhere13:37
wolfspraulfrom those, only Russia causes lots of trouble on the customs side13:39
wolfspraulSouth Korea don't know13:39
wolfspraulthe rest is super easy, and we are preparing for that13:39
wolfspraulUS customs is the best, in my experience. Most import friendly in the world (no wonder given the strength of consumers there ;-))13:40
kristianpaulFallenou: i will, sorry yday my laptop driver broke now i wokring with the chinesse defauklt os :/. I'll fix it to night i hope then move again witht the wishbone schpart and put the log in a public place15:25
kristianpaulsintesis log15:26
Fallenouok no problem, thank you very much15:28
Fallenougood luck fixing your laptop !15:28
lekerneland obviously: http://www.secure-endpoints.com/public/afs/ict.kth.se/pkg/cadence/15:31
Fallenouwhat is that ?15:32
lekernelAFS is a file sharing system used by universities around the world (and a massive security hold and warez source)15:32
lekernelhm, actually they cared about the permissions on this one15:36
Fallenoudid you find an up to date synplify eventually ?15:39
lekernelbut it works with xst anyway15:41
CIA-37antares: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * rb5493a2 / (antares-pack/transform.c libanetlist/net.c): pack: handle correctly replacement instances with internally connected signals - http://bit.ly/glpjla16:12
CIA-37antares: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r5af30ef / (6 files in 4 dirs): db: remove chip reference from database file - http://bit.ly/eQYtLp19:11
CIA-37antares: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r3dcea91 / (5 files in 4 dirs): Build and install data files - http://bit.ly/g5jNk019:11
Fallenoulekernel: I tried to understand how the minimac module works ... it's not really simple :)20:34
Fallenouwith the as fifo stuff ...20:34
Fallenouand the gray code counter20:34
Fallenou(I read quickly the paper...)20:35
Fallenouthere is a lot of code in this minimac20:35
Fallenouand it's not all trivial stuff20:35
FallenouI thought I could try to see what was going wrong, but I think it's too much for me :)20:35
CIA-37antares: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * re220976 / (9 files in 4 dirs): Added Mersenne Twister RNG library - http://bit.ly/dMfrb821:04
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