| Fallenou | gn8 ! | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| Fallenou | see ya ! | 00:02 |
| kristianpaul | Fallenou: wait ! | 00:04 |
| kristianpaul | well. | 00:05 |
| kristianpaul | okay, now something on my flickernoise broke.. | 00:05 |
| kristianpaul | http://paste.debian.net/110599/ | 00:05 |
| kristianpaul | anyway i can compile again.. | 00:05 |
| kristianpaul | but i still wonder why. | 00:06 |
| Fallenou | humm it's not related to my changes | 00:06 |
| Fallenou | I had this problem | 00:06 |
| kristianpaul | but always i do make on rtems-bsp it happens | 00:06 |
| Fallenou | I think I solved it doing some lm32-ranlib or something | 00:06 |
| kristianpaul | hmm | 00:06 |
| Fallenou | lekernel knows about it | 00:07 |
| Fallenou | We should document this on the wiki :x | 00:07 |
| Fallenou | sorry have to go | 00:07 |
| kristianpaul | np | 00:07 |
| kristianpaul | go ! | 00:07 |
| kristianpaul | :-) | 00:07 |
| Fallenou | if you did make in the bsp and then make install | 00:07 |
| kristianpaul | yes | 00:07 |
| Fallenou | you should surely make install and mv the files from zlib libpneg and stuff | 00:07 |
| Fallenou | libjpeg etc etc | 00:08 |
| kristianpaul | hmm | 00:08 |
| Fallenou | maybe | 00:08 |
| Fallenou | i don't know | 00:08 |
| Fallenou | try | 00:08 |
| kristianpaul | k | 00:08 |
| kristianpaul | i solved before too, but not proper way tought.. | 00:08 |
| kristianpaul | okay i recompiled zlib and linpng problem solved.. | 00:11 |
| Fallenou | ok | 00:11 |
| Fallenou | maybe we should document that | 00:11 |
| kristianpaul | but i do not understand why hapen this and better way to solved | 00:11 |
| kristianpaul | not proper way i think, rtems should have a guideline about deal with issues related to libs | 00:12 |
| kristianpaul | i wonder if this is the source of the problem | 00:13 |
| kristianpaul | "The libpng shipped with the RTEMS graphics toolkit is out of date, so we don't use it. But there is a problem with the latest vanilla libpng (1.4.4) which can't find the RTEMS zlib because all its functions are prefixed with "z_". Instead of messing with the GNU/Autohell scripts of libpng, we simply recompile zlib to do away with the prefix. We use the regular zlib. The instructions below work with zlib 1.2.5." | 00:13 |
| kristianpaul | anyway.. | 00:13 |
| kristianpaul | lets try this | 00:13 |
| Fallenou | *away sleeping* | 00:15 |
| kristianpaul | lol | 00:18 |
| kristianpaul | No rx buffers left in the pool! We are in big troubles! | 00:18 |
| kristianpaul | (ran nmap) | 00:18 |
| kristianpaul | Fallenou: now i'm able to freeze to board and no overflow msg on screen ;-) | 00:21 |
| kristianpaul | okay that was ftp,. now ttcp just in case.. | 00:21 |
| kristianpaul | ah, yes for ftp test i was sending a 11Mb file | 00:25 |
| Action: kristianpaul need a tap | 00:35 | |
| kristianpaul | hmm or tell my swich do trafic mirror, but nah, i prefer bring the laptop ;-) | 00:35 |
| CIA-37 | rtems-milkymist: Yann Sionneau master * rb121f8f / c/src/lib/libbsp/lm32/shared/milkymist_networking/network.c : initialize rx buffers busy flag with 0 - http://bit.ly/gGHQgl | 00:37 |
| kristianpaul | what was that?? | 00:37 |
| Action: kristianpaul looks at Fallenou | 00:38 | |
| Fallenou | forgot to say that by default the buffer is "not used" | 00:38 |
| Fallenou | it was ok with qemu though | 00:38 |
| kristianpaul | yeah, seeing diff tight now | 00:38 |
| kristianpaul | right* | 00:38 |
| Fallenou | I guess this fixes nothing | 00:39 |
| Fallenou | but better initialize the values | 00:39 |
| Fallenou | so you would say it's worse ? | 00:39 |
| kristianpaul | no | 00:39 |
| kristianpaul | actually i will like help, but no enought skill for give opinios on this topic | 00:40 |
| Action: kristianpaul back to CSR bus topic | 00:40 | |
| Fallenou | ok | 00:40 |
| Fallenou | is it better ? no opinion ? | 00:41 |
| kristianpaul | jeje | 00:41 |
| kristianpaul | no no | 00:41 |
| kristianpaul | intialize is always good | 00:41 |
| Fallenou | I mean, is the driver working better now ? | 00:41 |
| Fallenou | or worse ? | 00:41 |
| kristianpaul | ah | 00:41 |
| Fallenou | or the same | 00:41 |
| kristianpaul | well.. | 00:41 |
| kristianpaul | it crasehed board with a 12~ file.. | 00:42 |
| kristianpaul | thats same as before | 00:42 |
| Fallenou | hum ok | 00:42 |
| kristianpaul | i dint tried small files | 00:42 |
| kristianpaul | BUT | 00:42 |
| kristianpaul | i dont get a feedback on screen that may be realted with the crash.. | 00:43 |
| Fallenou | di you try ttcp ? | 00:43 |
| Fallenou | +d | 00:43 |
| kristianpaul | yes | 00:43 |
| kristianpaul | is running now.. | 00:43 |
| Fallenou | oh ok | 00:43 |
| kristianpaul | but is on my home swich so i cant debug verywell.. | 00:44 |
| Fallenou | in theory you wouldn't need to debug :p | 00:44 |
| kristianpaul | ohhh | 00:44 |
| Fallenou | it should behave well | 00:44 |
| kristianpaul | ohhh | 00:44 |
| Fallenou | what ? | 00:44 |
| Fallenou | good news ? | 00:44 |
| kristianpaul | http://paste.debian.net/110602/ | 00:45 |
| kristianpaul | http://paste.debian.net/110603/ | 00:45 |
| kristianpaul | now i wonder what hapen with the other file.. | 00:45 |
| kristianpaul | gmm | 00:45 |
| Fallenou | wow what a mess | 00:46 |
| Fallenou | the output | 00:46 |
| kristianpaul | NOW you SEE ;-) | 00:46 |
| Fallenou | yes :p | 00:46 |
| kristianpaul | my suffering :( | 00:46 |
| kristianpaul | thats from flterm btw | 00:46 |
| Fallenou | so if I understand all this mess | 00:46 |
| Fallenou | the test completed ? | 00:46 |
| kristianpaul | at the amazing rate of 27.19 KB/sec | 00:47 |
| Fallenou | it's fucking slow | 00:47 |
| Fallenou | even on my qemu i get better | 00:47 |
| kristianpaul | but safe ? ;) | 00:47 |
| Fallenou | i get like 1,2 MB/sec | 00:47 |
| kristianpaul | hmm | 00:47 |
| Fallenou | really strange | 00:47 |
| Fallenou | I thought it would be faster on the hardware than on qemmu | 00:48 |
| kristianpaul | not so | 00:48 |
| Fallenou | well the hardware bus frequency is 80 MHz | 00:48 |
| Fallenou | and mine is a lot faster | 00:48 |
| kristianpaul | i bet buses not behave same in qemu.. | 00:48 |
| Fallenou | yes | 00:48 |
| Fallenou | ttcp is behaving as before ? | 00:49 |
| Fallenou | or is it better ? | 00:49 |
| kristianpaul | no crash | 00:49 |
| Fallenou | I mean there is no rx buffer overflow | 00:49 |
| kristianpaul | but damn slow.. | 00:49 |
| kristianpaul | rx buffer overflow | 00:49 |
| kristianpaul | gone.. | 00:49 |
| kristianpaul | hahaah | 00:49 |
| kristianpaul | bad | 00:49 |
| kristianpaul | 512K file by ftp to ramdisk | 00:49 |
| kristianpaul | crashhh.. | 00:49 |
| Fallenou | :( | 00:49 |
| Fallenou | wtf | 00:49 |
| kristianpaul | no erros | 00:49 |
| kristianpaul | thats bad | 00:49 |
| Fallenou | ethernet is driving me crazy | 00:50 |
| Fallenou | lekernel thinks there may be a bug in hardware too | 00:50 |
| kristianpaul | yes i think same | 00:50 |
| Fallenou | that could explain some of the bugs | 00:50 |
| kristianpaul | with on chip ram | 00:50 |
| kristianpaul | but this was working before btw.. | 00:50 |
| Fallenou | it may be a good idea to run simulation of the minimac core | 00:50 |
| kristianpaul | even wit the already noticible "rx buffer overflow" | 00:51 |
| Fallenou | :( | 00:51 |
| Fallenou | I really doesn't understand | 00:51 |
| Fallenou | let's see what lekernel thinks of the patch | 00:51 |
| Fallenou | maybe there is something terribly wrong with it | 00:51 |
| kristianpaul | 52294 bytes sent in 2.70 secs (18.9 kB/s) | 00:51 |
| Fallenou | let's see if I can improve | 00:52 |
| kristianpaul | as i said ttcp work now, but no ftp.. | 00:52 |
| kristianpaul | as before | 00:52 |
| kristianpaul | odd.. | 00:52 |
| Fallenou | I sent the patch to the ML , to get feed backs | 00:52 |
| kristianpaul | rtems yeah ! | 00:52 |
| Fallenou | oh do to MM ML | 00:52 |
| Fallenou | no* | 00:52 |
| kristianpaul | rtems guys could help too | 00:53 |
| kristianpaul | also they claim the bug also | 00:53 |
| Fallenou | yeah but they would whine about the fact that we are not sync'ed with them | 00:53 |
| Fallenou | our git and their cvs | 00:53 |
| kristianpaul | hehe | 00:53 |
| kristianpaul | true | 00:53 |
| kristianpaul | 154128 bytes sent in 4.96 secs (30.4 kB/s) | 00:53 |
| Fallenou | well sorry | 00:54 |
| Fallenou | gotta go sleeping | 00:54 |
| kristianpaul | no no | 00:54 |
| Fallenou | will try to improve | 00:54 |
| kristianpaul | sure ! | 00:54 |
| kristianpaul | go sleep | 00:54 |
| Fallenou | :) gn8 | 00:54 |
| wolfspraul | kristianpaul: when you guys say 'bug in hardware', you mean the Milkymist SoC, or you mean the actual physical hardware? | 00:56 |
| kristianpaul | yeah, system crashed with a 512K transfer.. | 00:56 |
| kristianpaul | wolfspraul: fpga i think, internal on-chip-memory | 00:56 |
| wolfspraul | yes OK, but again "bug" here means something that can be improved in Verilog, or something that needs to be improved in the physical hardware? | 00:57 |
| wolfspraul | that distinction is quite important to me :-) | 00:57 |
| kristianpaul | wolfspraul: lekernel already pointed some errata, and i noticed etherner bug was also manifesting itself by ramdon or after loading bitstream sometimes | 00:58 |
| kristianpaul | wolfspraul: verilog yes | 00:58 |
| kristianpaul | i think | 00:58 |
| kristianpaul | dunno what lekernel things | 00:58 |
| wolfspraul | ok | 00:58 |
| kristianpaul | i bet is avoid some custom memory arrangements that can trigger this | 00:58 |
| wolfspraul | I'm preparing for the next bigger run, with capital expenditure 20,000 - 30,000 USD | 00:58 |
| wolfspraul | naturally I want to avoid creating a 25,000 USD broken art installation | 00:58 |
| wolfspraul | no gallery to sell it either | 00:59 |
| kristianpaul | as ethernet core have a small buffer the memory bug can manifest there i think | 00:59 |
| wolfspraul | the milkyman, a sculpture made out of 80 m1 rc3 boards :-) | 00:59 |
| kristianpaul | bbl (dinner) | 00:59 |
| wolfspraul | kristianpaul: yes, understood. you get my point. I am most interested where we believe the bug can be fixed, or the improvement made. | 00:59 |
| wolfspraul | whenever you have the feeling it reaches beyond Verilog, into physical hardware, shoot me a note right away | 01:00 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: (broken art) maybe RISD could be interested, as a backdrop for the gta03 that supposedly went there ? :) | 01:04 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak: RISD? | 01:09 |
| wpwrak | kristianpaul: rhode island school of design | 01:18 |
| kristianpaul | wolfspraul: how many mm1 this run? | 01:27 |
| kristianpaul | for this* | 01:27 |
| wolfspraul | currently I am planning for 80 | 01:28 |
| wolfspraul | ideally 75 as sellable result | 01:28 |
| wolfspraul | I may adjust this number upwards or downwards depending on what happens on the ground (=everywhere) :-) | 01:28 |
| wolfspraul | but not much, because I am already sourcing, so especially if we adjust a lot upwards, we may have to source some components a second time | 01:29 |
| wolfspraul | if I have 75 sellable units, I feel equipped well enough for a real launch | 01:29 |
| wolfspraul | that's 37,500 USD sales revenue, need to find customers for that much first - not easy | 01:29 |
| wolfspraul | and even if they do show up, I can react with another run | 01:29 |
| wolfspraul | the size is double the rc2 run, which is a good way to grow manufacturing runs | 01:30 |
| wolfspraul | if I get very nervous, I will reduce the size of the run, or make two partial runs | 01:30 |
| wolfspraul | if some large pre-order customer shows up, I can increase it too, of course | 01:31 |
| wolfspraul | actually it's easy - the goal is to never run out of stock | 01:31 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 01:32 |
| wolfspraul | which is the case right now, so what limits m1 today, is that we need to find additional customers that are paying money for the units we have | 01:32 |
| wolfspraul | not the size of the next run | 01:32 |
| wolfspraul | but I have too few units in stock (and in too customer unfriendly conditions - unassembled etc) for a real launch | 01:33 |
| kristianpaul | aw_: /aw | 02:35 |
| kristianpaul | aw_: hi | 02:35 |
| kristianpaul | aw_: How many or wich kindof sd-like memory do you used for mm1 testing? | 02:36 |
| kristianpaul | xiangfu: morning | 02:37 |
| kristianpaul | xiangfu: new booting bios? | 02:37 |
| xiangfu | kristianpaul: morning | 02:37 |
| xiangfu | after flash the last bios and last flickernoise.fbiz. now MM1 boot again. | 02:37 |
| kristianpaul | good | 02:37 |
| xiangfu | my build of flickernoise.fbiz is 3MB | 02:37 |
| xiangfu | (btw, I update the mupdf to 0.8) | 02:38 |
| aw_ | kristianpaul, you meant size? i used 2GBytes only. | 02:38 |
| kristianpaul | aw_: size and branf :-) | 02:38 |
| kristianpaul | brand** | 02:38 |
| kristianpaul | 2Gb okk | 02:38 |
| kristianpaul | xiangfu: 3Mb inclusing mupdf ? | 02:39 |
| aw_ | brand: Transcend | 02:39 |
| kristianpaul | just that? | 02:39 |
| kristianpaul | only* | 02:39 |
| xiangfu | kristianpaul: yes. | 02:39 |
| kristianpaul | xiangfu: oh wow | 02:39 |
| kristianpaul | xiangfu: what you did? | 02:39 |
| kristianpaul | jsut upgrade to 0.8? | 02:39 |
| kristianpaul | i wonder if is also lighter when using, had you tried read some pdf? | 02:40 |
| aw_ | kristianpaul, but I used this test program under http://www.milkymist.org/test_tool/ | 02:40 |
| kristianpaul | aw_: yes | 02:40 |
| xiangfu | kristianpaul: I follow the this wiki : "http://www.milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Flickernoise_build_instructions" | 02:41 |
| kristianpaul | hmm.. | 02:41 |
| xiangfu | in this wiki the mupdf is 0.7, I just update it to 0.8 | 02:41 |
| kristianpaul | i see | 02:42 |
| aw_ | kristianpaul, the source codes must be here: https://github.com/lekernel/m1testing | 02:42 |
| kristianpaul | yeah actually i put that version but feel fry to udate wiki :-) | 02:42 |
| kristianpaul | aw_: oh, sure | 02:42 |
| xiangfu | the images file I download from "http://milkymist.org/msd/msd-dec2010.tar.bz2", flicknoise.fbi only 1M | 02:42 |
| aw_ | but seems that the repository now was added a multi -times about dram already. | 02:43 |
| kristianpaul | aw_: he, just i got a 1Gb kinkstone.. dint work on mm1, bu i guess i need take a look software part first | 02:43 |
| kristianpaul | btw | 02:43 |
| xiangfu | kristianpaul: I think it's ok. the libmupdf.a is 6.6M for now. I need to reduce this size | 02:43 |
| kristianpaul | can i tap a SPI just as anyone can think? | 02:43 |
| kristianpaul | xiangfu: ah,you building is not linked to mupdf, right? | 02:43 |
| kristianpaul | tap = make a node for every ping.. and send it to the logic analizer.. | 02:44 |
| kristianpaul | s/ping/ping | 02:44 |
| kristianpaul | sorry :( | 02:46 |
| xiangfu | kristianpaul: I type "make" under "flickernoise.git/src" from the makefile it's linked mupdf. | 02:47 |
| kristianpaul | xiangfu: if is from last commit, i guess i dint linked mupdf to flicernoise | 02:47 |
| xiangfu | kristianpaul: yes. you right. my local is not last. | 02:54 |
| Action: kristianpaul will update to mupdf 0.8 asap in order to have same build parameters | 02:55 | |
| kristianpaul | eventought seems this version of mupdf have better results in code size than mine... 3Mb is good | 02:58 |
| kristianpaul | puf, now do sintesis again.. so many chnages something will break, but if not i got up 32 devices on the CSR bus, wich is good :-) | 02:59 |
| kristianpaul | dammit i need edit every core that is slave of the CSR.. that means 16.. | 03:34 |
| kristianpaul | what was tha coomand with ed to do massive substitutios.. | 03:34 |
| aw_ | kristianpaul, lekernel http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/milkymist_one/datasheet/VideoIn/Qi%20R49SSA-028636-F20-YYY-YQA.pdf | 03:43 |
| aw_ | this doc is indeed wrote a 'fundamental' xtal, I wrote emails to vendor with how they are different and if it could have behavior with different oscillating voltage. | 03:46 |
| aw_ | I'll let you know hopefully they reply me later. ;-) | 03:47 |
| kristianpaul | :-) | 03:47 |
| roh | :) | 03:52 |
| kristianpaul | aw_: tape & reel, they provide it already as a tape | 03:53 |
| kristianpaul | aw_: i remenber last run operator manually feed it | 03:53 |
| kristianpaul | Why i'm thinking before crystal doc have a lot of copy and paste ;-) | 03:54 |
| kristianpaul | this look better indeed | 03:54 |
| kristianpaul | or at least is from dec 2010 | 03:54 |
| kristianpaul | sed -i 's/csr_a\[13\:/csr_a\[14\:/g' */rtl/*v | 04:00 |
| kristianpaul | (for my record :-)) | 04:00 |
| aw_ | um..hopefully they were not copy & paste style. ;-) yes, last time we used cylinder type bulk parts | 04:01 |
| kristianpaul | no no,you tell me :-) i have zero experience on this.. | 04:04 |
| kristianpaul | ok.. other 40~ minutes.. | 04:41 |
| lekernel | wolfspraul: ethernet transfers work reliably enough in the BIOS, so the PCB is definitely OK | 09:29 |
| wolfspraul | ok great, thx | 09:30 |
| lekernel | 3MB FBIZ = after LZMA compression, before compression it's probably around 8-9MB | 09:32 |
| lekernel | the problem is LZMA decompression is slow as hell and brings the boot time to around 45s, so it'd be good to debloat the code a bit (ideally, enough not to require LZMA anymore) | 09:50 |
| lekernel | if it's too difficult to debloat, leave it, it's not a central feature | 09:50 |
| wolfspraul | 45 seconds, wow | 09:55 |
| wolfspraul | I thought it was 3-4 seconds so far | 09:55 |
| wolfspraul | we definitely should try hard to keep it in that area, every second less is great | 09:56 |
| wolfspraul | lekernel: let xiangfu_ know if he can help anywhere, he is looking for tasks :-) | 09:56 |
| lekernel | it's still a few seconds without PDF (and therefore without LZMA) | 09:56 |
| wolfspraul | sure, but in my mind a feature that increases boot time to 45 seconds simply doesn't exist | 09:57 |
| lekernel | but since PDF isn't an important feature, let's not spend too much energy on that | 09:57 |
| wolfspraul | so either the boot time comes down, or we cannot include the feature | 09:57 |
| lekernel | it can be simply disabled at compile time already | 09:57 |
| wolfspraul | yes I know | 09:57 |
| wolfspraul | xiangfu_: you there? | 09:57 |
| xiangfu_ | yes. reading .. | 09:57 |
| lekernel | hi xiangfu_ | 09:58 |
| wolfspraul | lekernel: as xiangfu_ is slowly coming up to speed on the platform, do you have any ideas of tasks for him? | 09:58 |
| lekernel | dark color theme for MTK? | 09:58 |
| lekernel | shouldn't be too hard :) | 09:58 |
| wolfspraul | my big ones for xiangfu_ are easy updates via the gui ("update now" button, checking for newer versions via ethernet etc) | 09:59 |
| lekernel | yeah, that too | 09:59 |
| wolfspraul | and supporting adam on testing software, i.e. adding features adam needs, documenting the build process | 09:59 |
| wolfspraul | fixing rtems driver bugs as reported by others (or found by himself) | 09:59 |
| lekernel | there's the flash subfolder FTP problem (I mailed him about that) | 10:00 |
| xiangfu_ | lekernel: WITH_PDF. the flickernoise is 8.3M here. the boot time will increase a lot. haven't try to boot this 8.3M flickernoise. | 10:00 |
| lekernel | but I suspect this has to do with a bug in the implementation of the RTEMS eval_path API, which is the most retarded programming idea I've discovered in a while | 10:00 |
| xiangfu_ | lekernel: yes. I got that email. | 10:00 |
| lekernel | so... good luck :( | 10:00 |
| wolfspraul | xiangfu_: boot time 45 seconds is unacceptable anyway. so it either must come down, or if that's too hard we remove the feature (for now) and work on something else | 10:00 |
| wolfspraul | if that's an important bug, why not | 10:01 |
| wolfspraul | bugs need to be fixed :-) | 10:01 |
| wolfspraul | as long as we watch priorities, I don't care how hard it is to fix a bug | 10:01 |
| lekernel | xiangfu_: the flash partition is 4MB only, so you need to LZMA your 8.3M image | 10:02 |
| xiangfu_ | wolfspraul: (boot time, pdf feature) ok. I just report my side :) | 10:02 |
| wolfspraul | xiangfu_: ok great, sounds like you have good practical tasks already, and you and lekernel are talking. great! | 10:02 |
| lekernel | the scripts can do it | 10:02 |
| lekernel | but LZMA decompression takes forever on the board | 10:02 |
| wolfspraul | xiangfu_: try to pick small tasks at the beginning, that will allow you to deliver real results to others in smaller incremental steps. | 10:02 |
| wolfspraul | xiangfu_: so what is your #1 priority right now on m1? | 10:03 |
| xiangfu_ | wolfspraul: for me. I put the 'pdf' to #1. because the pdf task seems the easier one. | 10:04 |
| xiangfu_ | lekernel: give me two task: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/User:Xiangfu#2011-03-13 | 10:04 |
| xiangfu_ | sorry. wolfspraul ^ | 10:04 |
| lekernel | xiangfu_: other things you can work on are 1. dark color theme (easy enough) - btw, we'll use this wallpaper: http://curlybracket.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/curlybracket-light-04.jpg | 10:05 |
| xiangfu_ | lekernel: ok. got it | 10:06 |
| lekernel | 2. different keymaps (atm it only supports the German keyboard layout) | 10:07 |
| lekernel | 3. different languages... maybe selected at compile time | 10:07 |
| wolfspraul | that curlybracket jpg is under a free license? | 10:08 |
| wolfspraul | the language should be selectable at runtime, preferable. I cannot imagine that will take up a lot of space. | 10:08 |
| lekernel | no, but it's a bit harder to implement | 10:09 |
| wolfspraul | that's what we have xiangfu_ for :-) | 10:09 |
| wolfspraul | xiangfu_: that's a great task too, imho | 10:09 |
| xiangfu_ | :D | 10:09 |
| lekernel | wolfspraul: (jpg) no, it's cc-nc-nd, but I have the specific permission to include it on Milkymist, which is enough I think... I see it as a small extra that we distribute with the product | 10:10 |
| Action: xiangfu_ have write down the task to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/User:Xiangfu#2011-03-13 | 10:13 | |
| xiangfu_ | dinner time. back online later | 10:13 |
| wolfspraul | lekernel: -nc - argh. has he lifted the -nc -nd restriction for Milkymist? | 10:16 |
| wolfspraul | if not we should not include it | 10:16 |
| lekernel | -nc yes, I made it clear that we intend to sell devices with this file on the flash as default wallpaper | 10:19 |
| lekernel | -nd didn't ask | 10:19 |
| wolfspraul | ok let's assume -nd is lifted as well, otherwise we remove it | 10:24 |
| wolfspraul | this type of jpg is hard to modify anyway, but this -nd stuff is a sad thing. real creative people will laugh at the whole concept. | 10:24 |
| lekernel | it's just a wallpaper ok? :) | 10:24 |
| wolfspraul | not ok. since the -nc -nd stuff exists we need to take it serious. | 10:25 |
| wolfspraul | I didn't write this crap. | 10:25 |
| wolfspraul | it's laughable to any real creative person | 10:25 |
| wolfspraul | the good thing is it's easy to remove, and since he lifted -nc let's just assume -nd is lifted as well, for now. | 10:26 |
| lekernel | certainly, but not everyone shares your point of view about licenses, and we have to respect those as well | 10:27 |
| lekernel | a nc-nd good looking wallpaper is better than nothing | 10:27 |
| wolfspraul | yes, but I won't include it on devices I'm selling :-) | 10:28 |
| lekernel | please don't do like rms bothering the BSD people with non-free software installable from the ports tree :) | 10:28 |
| wolfspraul | we are on the same page that -nc -nd is an annoyance. it wastes everybody's time. | 10:28 |
| wolfspraul | absolutely meaningless. | 10:29 |
| Fallenou | wolfspraul: how can you measure pre-orders ? | 10:29 |
| wolfspraul | lekernel: should I email him to clarify the -nd part? | 10:30 |
| wolfspraul | painful stuff | 10:30 |
| wolfspraul | Fallenou: measure? don't understand | 10:30 |
| wolfspraul | I don't take pre-orders. if you want to order one you pay, then I ship :-) | 10:30 |
| wolfspraul | lekernel: what is the other point of view about licenses you are suggesting? you are fine to include cc -nd -nd content? | 10:31 |
| lekernel | wolfspraul: no, I'll write her... but I don't think it'll be easy to make her totally change the license, so you can also suggest another picture :) | 10:32 |
| wolfspraul | I am following Wikimedia Commons guidelines, seems the easiest and best to me. | 10:32 |
| wolfspraul | and nobody would ever make a derivative of that jpg anyway. | 10:32 |
| lekernel | wolfspraul: as long as it's non-central content, I don't really care. this jpg is just a little extra that we'd distribute with the product, which isn't as free as we would like it to be, but what can we do | 10:32 |
| wolfspraul | he. that sounds like no policy at all :-) "non-central content, I don't really care" | 10:33 |
| wolfspraul | I understand your point of course. | 10:34 |
| wolfspraul | I hate wasting time over -nc -nd clarifications. | 10:34 |
| Fallenou | lekernel: is lzma a "hardware" friendly algorithm ? can a core accelerate it ? | 10:41 |
| lekernel | no idea... i just copy and pasted the lzma decompression code from the linux kernel, I don't even know how it works | 10:42 |
| Fallenou | ok | 10:42 |
| Fallenou | cause maybe a core could be our solution | 10:42 |
| Action: Fallenou is just saying, doesn't know the algo | 10:42 | |
| lekernel | sounds like a lot of work for few things | 10:42 |
| lekernel | i'd simply leave pdf support out instead :) there are way more important things... | 10:42 |
| Fallenou | ok fair enough | 10:43 |
| Fallenou | 02:23 < wolfspraul> if some large pre-order customer shows up, I can increase it too, of course | 10:43 |
| Fallenou | that's why I wonder how you can "count" pre-orders | 10:43 |
| Fallenou | you have a website set-up for pre-orders ? | 10:43 |
| Fallenou | you may want to have a look at http://getitmade.com/ wolfspraul | 10:44 |
| Fallenou | I met the director of this website during oshug | 10:44 |
| Fallenou | I am seeing it again on thursday | 10:45 |
| Fallenou | s/it/him/ | 10:45 |
| Fallenou | maybe it can help you figure out how much customer we have / we can have before doing the runs | 10:45 |
| wolfspraul | Fallenou: what exactly do you want me to do with getitmade.com ? | 10:46 |
| wolfspraul | no I don't have any specific website setup for preorders, and that is not necessary. when you have money, you know you can approach anybody about buying anything. | 10:46 |
| wolfspraul | what I will do is to contact specific people to explain Milkymist to them and see whether I can get them interested | 10:47 |
| wolfspraul | if one of them turns around and says "we are very interested, we want to get in big time and order 500 right away", that would be what I meant | 10:47 |
| wolfspraul | the terms would be roughly 50% upfront, 50% before shipment | 10:47 |
| wolfspraul | the normal OEM terms are 30% upfront, 70% before shipment | 10:48 |
| wolfspraul | since this is a very risky/innovative product, I would ask for 50/50 | 10:48 |
| wolfspraul | but the main point is to find someone who really believes in the product and wants to jump in (i.e. take business risks) | 10:48 |
| wolfspraul | I definitely agree with lekernel about just leaving PDF out if it causes too many problems now. | 10:49 |
| wolfspraul | but of course, if more people join we can work on more things in parallel ;-) | 10:49 |
| Fallenou | ok I understand better now wolfspraul :) thanks | 10:50 |
| Fallenou | you are trying to approach big buyers, not end users | 10:50 |
| Fallenou | I didn't realize that | 10:50 |
| wolfspraul | end users can buy now | 10:51 |
| Fallenou | yes | 10:51 |
| wolfspraul | the product is in stock | 10:51 |
| wolfspraul | so what is the problem you are trying to solve? | 10:51 |
| Fallenou | none I was just trying to understand | 10:51 |
| Fallenou | you made it very clear now :) | 10:51 |
| wolfspraul | I just read about getitmade | 10:51 |
| wolfspraul | they make it easy to collect pre-orders | 10:51 |
| Fallenou | yes | 10:51 |
| wolfspraul | that sounds like a disaster strategy to me | 10:51 |
| Fallenou | oh really ? | 10:51 |
| wolfspraul | then I believe much more in kickstarter.com | 10:51 |
| Fallenou | the problem with kickstarter is that it ships only to US or something like that | 10:52 |
| Fallenou | you need a US credit card or something | 10:52 |
| wolfspraul | I have 15+ years industry experience. I have never met one person with experience who says that pre-orders work, especially not for innovative products. | 10:52 |
| wolfspraul | in fact. if you see someone trying to finance anything innovative with pre-orders, you know it will all blow up. | 10:52 |
| wolfspraul | guaranteed. 100%. | 10:52 |
| wolfspraul | it has been tried many times | 10:52 |
| Fallenou | ok I didn't know | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | you can have a few large pre-order customers, that works | 10:53 |
| Fallenou | I have 0- experience in this domain :) | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | yes OK, so I tell you mine | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | (and others might disagree) | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | the problem is communication | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | it's easy | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | innovative means something will not work as expected | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | true? | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | some features need to be removed | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | price need to be increased | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | DELAYS! | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | the more innovative thing you do, the higher the risk of all of those | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | right? | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | now | 10:53 |
| Fallenou | yes | 10:53 |
| wolfspraul | imagine you are sitting on the money of 1000 individual pre-orders customers | 10:54 |
| wolfspraul | can you imagine the complete impossibility of keeping the communication flowing with them? | 10:54 |
| wolfspraul | about what strange bug showed up, what realization, what the options are, why option xyz was chosen, etc. | 10:54 |
| wolfspraul | then some will cancel | 10:54 |
| Fallenou | well it needs a dedicated man which maintains wiki/twitter/ and such | 10:54 |
| wolfspraul | some will not agree with the judgments | 10:54 |
| wolfspraul | some will only understand half | 10:54 |
| Fallenou | like a community manager | 10:54 |
| wolfspraul | and so on | 10:54 |
| Fallenou | manage the forum | 10:54 |
| wolfspraul | it's impossible | 10:54 |
| Fallenou | But I definitely see your point | 10:55 |
| wolfspraul | innovative = things turn out different than originally thought | 10:55 |
| wolfspraul | that is inherently incompatible with a high number of individual pre-orderers | 10:55 |
| wolfspraul | the two are mutually exclusive | 10:55 |
| Fallenou | hum I guess you're right | 10:55 |
| wolfspraul | so if you do something low risk, ok fine, you can do it | 10:55 |
| Fallenou | 11:47 < wolfspraul> innovative = things turn out different than originally thought | 10:55 |
| Fallenou | this is totally true | 10:55 |
| wolfspraul | but you better be sure that nothing unexpected happens | 10:55 |
| wolfspraul | because you are sitting on this communication bomb | 10:55 |
| Fallenou | even the creator of an innovative stuff does not see the real point at the begining | 10:55 |
| wolfspraul | you cannot communicate effectively with those large number of pre-orderers | 10:55 |
| wolfspraul | if it's innovative, you can have a few large pre-orderers | 10:56 |
| wolfspraul | that's fine | 10:56 |
| wolfspraul | say at most 5-10 people | 10:56 |
| wolfspraul | every one less will help | 10:56 |
| wolfspraul | then if something unexpected happens, you can try emails, phone calls, phone conferences, etc. | 10:56 |
| wolfspraul | so don't know what to do with getitmade right now | 10:57 |
| wolfspraul | you can register m1 there, and see how many pre-orders you can collect | 10:57 |
| wolfspraul | true? | 10:57 |
| Fallenou | maybe it's good when the product is totally finished and not evoluting | 10:57 |
| wolfspraul | you can even take money! | 10:57 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 10:57 |
| wolfspraul | yes of course | 10:57 |
| wolfspraul | but then why pre-order at all? why not just sell? | 10:57 |
| Fallenou | it's to have bigger runs | 10:57 |
| wolfspraul | I think if you register m1 there, and start taking pre-orders (money), you will immediately see the problem. | 10:57 |
| Fallenou | with less risks | 10:57 |
| wolfspraul | you will be on my neck every day about the production date | 10:57 |
| Fallenou | ahah ok :) | 10:58 |
| wolfspraul | but that's not my problem then. I say "probably May", and then in May we see where we are. | 10:58 |
| wolfspraul | you promised something to your pre-order customers, not me | 10:58 |
| wolfspraul | I know there are too many risks (unknowns) to promise a hard shipping date now. | 10:58 |
| wolfspraul | alright, hope this makes sense :-) | 10:58 |
| wolfspraul | but thanks for pointing getitmade out to me | 10:59 |
| wolfspraul | very appreciated | 10:59 |
| Fallenou | let's be clear, I didn't want to upset you :) | 10:59 |
| wolfspraul | not at all | 10:59 |
| Fallenou | ok good | 10:59 |
| wolfspraul | I am sharing my thinking. | 10:59 |
| wolfspraul | I like those sites | 10:59 |
| Fallenou | and thanks for your point | 10:59 |
| wolfspraul | I just read their faq and scratching my head :-) | 10:59 |
| Fallenou | I clearly understand your opinion now | 10:59 |
| wolfspraul | I don't want large number of pre-orders mixed with innovative products | 10:59 |
| wolfspraul | that will blow up | 10:59 |
| Fallenou | ok | 10:59 |
| wolfspraul | so I think kickstarter.com is better | 11:00 |
| wolfspraul | you throw the money over to the other side, and get no hard promises back | 11:00 |
| wolfspraul | more like a donation, and wish for the best | 11:00 |
| Fallenou | hehe | 11:00 |
| wolfspraul | that's much more in line with what an innovative product needs | 11:00 |
| Fallenou | I guess you're right | 11:00 |
| Fallenou | it's not for "common" end-users | 11:00 |
| Fallenou | it's more for "very-small" investers | 11:01 |
| wolfspraul | yes | 11:01 |
| Fallenou | who wants to give a hand to promising project they find cool | 11:01 |
| Fallenou | and maybe get a product in return | 11:01 |
| wolfspraul | they can develop a lot of power though, I do believe in that | 11:01 |
| wolfspraul | correct | 11:01 |
| wolfspraul | that's a great model imho | 11:01 |
| wolfspraul | and whoever gets the money should work their ass off to deliver | 11:01 |
| Fallenou | yes but hard to advertise in this world | 11:01 |
| wolfspraul | but if it's innovative, there are no guarantees | 11:02 |
| Fallenou | where you want something for your money | 11:02 |
| wolfspraul | 'pre-order' is an illusion mostly | 11:02 |
| wolfspraul | well, if you want to be sure, then wait until the product is in front of you | 11:02 |
| wolfspraul | in the store. try it there, only take the unit you hand-tested yourself. | 11:02 |
| wolfspraul | :-) | 11:02 |
| wolfspraul | some people do that, and that's fine | 11:02 |
| Fallenou | =) | 11:03 |
| wolfspraul | lekernel: this guy dizid has a few nice ones http://www.flickr.com/search/?l=commderiv&ct=6&mt=photos&adv=1&w=all&q=milkdrop&m=text | 11:14 |
| wolfspraul | anything you like? | 11:14 |
| wolfspraul | http://www.flickr.com/photos/dizid/61299977/ | 11:15 |
| lekernel | not too bad.... | 11:17 |
| wolfspraul | ok no worries we don't get stuck on this :-) | 11:17 |
| wolfspraul | actually, can the current m1 take screenshots? | 11:18 |
| wolfspraul | that would be another nice feature to add, if it's not there yet, for xiangfu | 11:18 |
| lekernel | the m1 no, but qemu can | 11:19 |
| wolfspraul | cool, I'll add it to my wishlist for xiangfu | 11:19 |
| CIA-37 | flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r79f88b0 / src/Makefile : Fix link order of libs (Xiangfu) - http://bit.ly/edjEX5 | 11:57 |
| Fallenou | lekernel: I think you should put the "FPGA proven" flag on your Navre AVR clone on opencores | 14:26 |
| Fallenou | I noticed the flag is not set | 14:26 |
| lekernel | yeah, and document it too :) | 14:26 |
| Fallenou | since it works on fpga, just putting the flag can advertise it better | 14:27 |
| Fallenou | documentation take more time to just set the flag :p | 14:27 |
| Fallenou | lekernel: I was asked during the talk "which device class are supported by the usb host controller" ? | 14:28 |
| Fallenou | I didn't know exactly | 14:28 |
| Fallenou | so I said for the moment it's just some devices, like keyboard and mice | 14:28 |
| lekernel | assuming I lost my #{|#~ opencores password, I'm not so sure about that | 14:28 |
| Fallenou | didn't know the exact device classes | 14:28 |
| lekernel | ah, found it | 14:29 |
| Fallenou | : | 14:30 |
| Fallenou | :) | 14:30 |
| lekernel | I guess I can advertise it as "stable" too, by opencores standards it probably deserves it | 14:30 |
| Fallenou | ahah | 14:30 |
| Fallenou | some of your cores has been "elected/selected" as OpenCoresCertified ;) | 14:30 |
| Fallenou | like HPDMC | 14:31 |
| lekernel | phew, it's also an old version in the opencores repository | 14:31 |
| Fallenou | dunno if it's a reward for you though :p | 14:31 |
| Action: Fallenou puts a "OpenCoresCertified" sticker on lekernel | 14:32 | |
| Fallenou | too bad I won't be able to attend to OSHUG #9 about opencores | 14:32 |
| Fallenou | i could have grabbed some stickers =) | 14:32 |
| lekernel | I don't think opencores has stickers | 14:33 |
| Fallenou | oh :( | 14:33 |
| Fallenou | you have to send your code to their svn ? you can't just give a git url ? | 14:33 |
| Fallenou | that's annoying to have to maintain 2 repositories :o | 14:34 |
| lekernel | "opencores policies" ... :) | 14:34 |
| Fallenou | they should implement a sort of daemon/cron that just git clones /svn co/cvs branch | 14:34 |
| Fallenou | from your main project repo | 14:34 |
| lekernel | "the code has to be checked in, opencores is not just a repository of links" | 14:35 |
| Fallenou | yeah I see | 14:35 |
| Fallenou | they want to be like github :) | 14:35 |
| Fallenou | they want content | 14:35 |
| lekernel | "we ask people to register to download, statistics are important to build credibility" | 14:35 |
| Fallenou | yeah that's strange too | 14:35 |
| Fallenou | you have to register to access the content in read only | 14:35 |
| lekernel | at least github has an outstanding web design and version control system | 14:35 |
| lekernel | and no registration necessary :) | 14:35 |
| Fallenou | yep github is really cool | 14:36 |
| Fallenou | not opensource but cool | 14:36 |
| Fallenou | I wonder if gitorious is of the same quality | 14:37 |
| lekernel | well, everyone's got bills to pay | 14:37 |
| lekernel | and quite frankly I prefer Github's policy than Opencores' | 14:37 |
| lekernel | github makes money by selling a proprietary web service to companies | 14:37 |
| lekernel | and supports open source software with a free of charge and outstanding service | 14:38 |
| lekernel | opencores makes money by being control freaks and talking to advertisers and (probably) investors | 14:38 |
| Fallenou | well anyway | 14:39 |
| Fallenou | the service is clearly not the same quality | 14:39 |
| lekernel | and maybe by using opencores to heavily promote ORSoC's consulting services - though I doubt any serious ASIC company would hire them for HDL developments | 14:40 |
| lekernel | they seem to do a decent job with embedded software though | 14:40 |
| Fallenou | I really don't know what they do | 14:41 |
| Fallenou | am on their website | 14:41 |
| lekernel | oh, and Du talar och skriver Svenska och Engelska flytande :) | 14:42 |
| Fallenou | oh I didn't know they have a shop : http://opencores.com/shop,items | 14:42 |
| Fallenou | whaaaat | 14:43 |
| Fallenou | don't speak this language :p | 14:43 |
| Fallenou | wow their jtag debugguer is 100 EUR | 14:43 |
| kristianpaul | flash subfolder FTP problems ?? | 15:20 |
| kristianpaul | problem = crash ? :-) | 15:22 |
| lekernel | no, it just won't create the file at all | 15:47 |
| kristianpaul | hmm isee | 15:58 |
| kristianpaul | ah, yes | 16:07 |
| kristianpaul | i think i experienced that yday when trying to upload the pacthes to individuual folders | 16:08 |
| kristianpaul | lekernel: do you have a milkymist slides for VJs? | 17:34 |
| lekernel | nyet | 17:34 |
| kristianpaul | arg.. | 17:35 |
| kristianpaul | ok | 17:35 |
| CIA-37 | antares: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r3254b68 / (6 files in 3 dirs): pack: transform skeleton - http://bit.ly/fAqYDR | 18:18 |
| Fallenou | lekernel: do you have comments about the change in ethernet driver | 19:22 |
| Fallenou | ? | 19:22 |
| Fallenou | it seems not to be better :( | 19:23 |
| Fallenou | maybe there si something terribly wrong in the new version that you could spot with having a quick look | 19:23 |
| CIA-37 | antares: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r065e5fc / (3 files in 3 dirs): pack: replace IBUF and OBUF - http://bit.ly/fKPtye | 23:20 |
| --- Tue Mar 15 2011 | 00:00 | |
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