#milkymist IRC log for Friday, 2011-03-04

lekernelhmm i'll recommend to leave the source untouched in the first place00:00
lekernelalso your host CPU needs to load a program in the avr00:00
jackgassettI should be able to use data2mem to load the BRAM with the program.00:01
jackgassettI don't mean to be bugging you with silly questions. :)00:01
jackgassettbut I looked at the top level signals and it looked pretty straighforward. But I get errors trying to synthesize.00:02
lekernelif you really want to use that proprietary thing... and in every case, the AVR is in reset mode by default and needs to be started with a CSR write to the right register00:02
jackgassettboth when I do nothing to modify the project and when I try to comment out the usb modules.00:02
jackgassettwhen you say it would not work by just dropping into ISE project what issues are you referring too?00:03
jackgassettthat it needs external way to program the code and USB hardware?00:04
lekernelwell, you need a host system, and support software00:04
jackgassettok, I think I could work through those issues. but I see this which I've never seen before when I comment out usb modules.00:05
jackgassett    Using one-hot encoding for signal <dmem_sel>.00:05
jackgassettINTERNAL_ERROR:Xst:hdltool.c:4862:1.209 -  Signal dmem_sel, 0 ones:XXXXXXXXXXXXX00:05
jackgassettINTERNAL_ERROR:Xst:hdltool.c:4863:1.209 -  To resolve this error, please consult the Answers Database and other online resources at http://support.xilinx.com00:05
lekernelyeah, that's a xst bug for spartan3 that we don't have for spartan600:05
jackgassettok. I see.00:06
lekernelI told you about that and the solution when you came on IRC the first day ... search the logs00:06
jackgassettoh. ok.00:06
jackgassettwell thank you for your help.00:06
jackgassettI appreciate it.00:06
CIA-94flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r862c11f / src/Makefile : Build LZMA image - http://bit.ly/hoTsbO00:10
jackgassetthmmm, just reviewed chat logs and maybe you are confusing me with someone else. We never got into any really technical discussions.00:12
jackgassettI don't see anything about a spartan3 bug. can you point me in the direction to start searching on google for a solution?00:13
lekernelyou need to disable signal re-encoding in the xst option00:13
jackgassettok, thank you.00:13
lekernelbut to do so, you need to switch to advanced mode in the process properties and then pass that as "extra xst command line"00:13
lekernelthe exact option name (command line) is in the xst user guide00:14
jackgassettok, that should put me in the right direction. thank you again. I know how it is to be busy and people start bugging you. :)00:14
lekernelmaybe there's a possibility to only disable reencoding on this signal e.g. with a special comment in the verilog file00:15
jackgassettlast time we talked you said navre uses 30% of 250K chip and I just wanted to take a look.00:15
lekernelthis wouldn't prevent the synthesizer from performing the re-encoding optimization where it doesn't crash00:15
jackgassettbtw, did you see this on hackaday today? http://hackaday.com/2011/03/02/gameduino/00:18
jackgassettlooks like a cool project.00:18
lekernelyup. and maybe I should rename this project "milkuino" so they'll post it at last.00:24
lekernel(or not)00:25
larscfpgarduino00:38
jackgassett:) have they never posted your project?00:38
jackgassettthey wont post my papilio either!00:39
kristianpaullzma, nice :-)01:39
Action: kristianpaul upgrades to ISE 13.101:42
kristianpaulxiangfu: Hi01:43
kristianpaulxiangfu: How is your mm1 gointg?01:43
kristianpaulgoing**01:43
xiangfukristianpaul: Hi. finish assemble the case. play flicknoise a little.01:44
kristianpaulgood01:45
xiangfukristianpaul: next step. try to reflash ;)01:47
kristianpaulah thats not so long, but what really take some time is get up all the toolchains and flicernoise compiled01:48
Action: kristianpaul wonders if the lzma support is intentionally related to avoid the "Invalid flash boot image length" when booting last flicernoise versions ;-)01:50
kristianpaul8,2M > 2,8M , and if remenber well bios limit is 4M01:59
xiangfukristianpaul: 1. reflash. 2. compile toolchians and flicernoise. :)02:03
kristianpaulha, a have small typo in build_bitstream.sh, LOGFILE or LOGFILEHOST ?, please define !02:33
Action: kristianpaul choosed LOGFILEHOST02:33
kristianpaulxiangfu: can i ask about your current interest with milkymist?02:52
kristianpaul rtems, linux, hdl part, flickernoise?02:57
xiangfukristianpaul: I think I like rtems. I would like stick lekernel's plan for start  :)02:59
kristianpaul:)03:01
kristianpaulok lzma add some seconds to boot time..03:51
yizhanghi, i tried to compile ftmem, and got an error /bin/sh: xst: not found04:26
yizhangwhich package should i install?04:26
yizhangsorry, fjmem04:26
yizhangor do i need to install anything from xilinx?04:34
yizhangdo I need Xilinx ISE?04:40
yizhangI hope any of you can give me a hint, i'm stuck here ;)04:44
yizhangresolved, thanks xiangfu. use pre-synthesized bitstream.05:31
awis there anyone know what's currently supported resolutions on M1's VGA out? I meant s/w ported already.06:23
terpstralekernel, i split the multiplier into parts so that the multiply and carry-chains are in different stages. altera has 18x18->36 multiplier blocks so performing a 32x32->32 multiplication requires inferring the multiplier and adders in the same cycle. my manual splitting makes those land on different cycles. obviously, one could do further to pipeline it, but not with inferred logic. and for the cyclone3, the mul and add on different cycles was eno07:54
terpstraugh to remove it from the critical path.07:54
terpstrafor the arria2 it's still one of the slowest paths, and there is a way to tell quartus to make the multiplier span two clock cycles, but i just haven't been fussed to get it faster than 175MHz yet07:55
terpstramy current project is to get a reliable gdb connection going!07:56
xiangfuHi where I can find more .fnp files ?09:30
kristianpaulwolfspraul is yizhang the same Yi the same from sharism ?11:33
wolfspraulkristianpaul: yes, same11:44
Gurtyscrts Happy Birthday ^_^12:00
lekernelwolfspraul: how many M1's do you have left?12:13
Fallenouyep happy birthday scrts !!12:17
CIA-94milkymist: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r22569e9 / software/bios/boot.c : Run CRC before decompression - http://bit.ly/eiZkcj12:50
CIA-94milkymist: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * rf634db3 / software/libhal/brd.c : Claim to support PCB revision 2 (RC3 run) - http://bit.ly/hYOu3l12:50
CIA-94milkymist: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r67f4f7b / boards/milkymist-one/rtl/setup.v : Enable back all cores in rescue mode (works with ISE 13) - http://bit.ly/ftThYs12:58
CIA-94milkymist: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * rf890883 / boards/milkymist-one/standby/Makefile : Generate swapped image for standby bitstream - http://bit.ly/dSes2e13:33
wolfspraullekernel: which projector do you think works best with Milkymist One?14:23
wolfspraulthere seem to be different technologies like LED, LCD, DLP14:23
wolfsprauland different resolutions, it seems the price goes up dramatically with higher resolution14:24
lekernelI don't really know14:24
lekernelluminosity is important14:24
lekernelresolution, not that much14:24
wolfspraulin fact the cheapest projectors are all the ones that max out at 800x600, which is perfectly fine for m1, afaik14:24
lekernelif you get a 800x600 projector with very high luminosity, it would look better than a HD one with low luminosity14:25
lekernelfyi, the big panels at the Stade de France have PAL (768x576) resolution :)14:25
wolfspraulok I'm looking at this overview for example http://www.alternate.de/html/categoryListing.html?navId=95&navId=85&navId=840&navId=842&navId=94&navId=844&tn=ENTERTAINMENT&l1=Beamer&l2=Projektoren&14:26
lekernelthe LED ones have very low luminosity14:28
lekernelseems DLP is the best14:28
wolfspraulLCD also14:29
wolfspraullooks like around 300 EUR, you can get LCD or DLP ones with ca. 2000 ansi-lumen14:29
wolfspraulfor the same 300 EUR, you can get a LED one with 150 ansi lumen, Samsung Pocket Image SP-P400B14:29
wolfspraul(if you sort say by resolution, you get a fairly nice overview)14:30
wolfspraulI would guess (from the pictures) the LED one is probably much lighter/smaller and needs less power?14:31
wolfspraulok, I think I got an idea. good :-)14:32
lekernelalso try to get a good dynamic range14:33
lekernelit doesn't make sense to have such a high luminosity if the thing also projects a gray background all over the picture (ie black is gray)14:34
wolfspraulhow about camera? what works well / any guidance?14:39
wolfspraullekernel: what kind of output on the camera is preferable? component video with 3 cables, or composite with just one? are both supported?14:48
lekernelcomponent video has better quality and should be supported but has never been tested afaik14:49
wolfsprauldo you have any recommendations what kind of camera makes sense?14:49
wolfspraulwhich camera features are important/unimportant when used with m1?14:49
lekernelso i'd stick with composite unless we're ready to potentially spend time on sw fixes14:49
wolfspraulthat's clear :-) composite14:50
lekernelit depends what you are doing with it, but good performance in low luminosity is nice when used on stage14:50
wolfspraulis there a cheap 'camera' that just sort of streams composite down the wire and that's all?14:50
lekerneloh sure14:50
lekernelyou can take a cheap CCTV camera14:50
lekernelI saw some at around 15 euros or so14:51
lekernelbig brother has some advantages too :)14:51
wolfspraulI can imagine. Chinese police state helps the whole world with low cctv prices, thanks to driving the volumes of those critters into the tens of millions and more.14:51
wolfsprauloh you should see the cctv building in shenzhen, it's sickening.14:52
wolfspraulthat's one field where china definitely is top of the world already14:52
lekernelbeats London?14:52
wolfspraulbut anyway, I got it14:52
wolfsprauloh, many times i think14:52
wolfspraulthere must be millions and millions and god knows how many cameras here14:53
wolfspraulyou are being photographed all the time, the cameras are EVERYWHERE14:53
wolfspraulI don't even want to list typical places, just believe me when I say EVERYWHERE.14:54
wolfsprauland in 5 years they will not be easy to spot either anymore - nice.14:54
kristianpaulcctv is just white and black right? should the camera support colors also?14:54
lekerneloh, B&W is for old CCTV :) innovation never stops there...14:55
kristianpaulheh, ok14:55
lekernelbtw, Chinese cameras might be NTSC. AFAIK, this hasn't been tested either14:57
lekernelso if you want to be sure not to have to mess in the code, find one that has PAL, which I tested many times and works14:58
lekernelotoh, getting ntsc (as well as component) to work would be valuable too14:58
Action: lekernel is reworking all the mm soc scripts to totally do away with impact15:01
wolfspraulunderstood about ntsc and component - this is helpful, thanks!15:05
CIA-59flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * rcb4808e / (6 files in 2 dirs): Flash scripts - http://bit.ly/hM9omj15:41
CIA-59milkymist: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * r13b3cd8 / (7 files in 3 dirs): UrJTAG flashing - http://bit.ly/gS3shs15:42
wolfspraullekernel: when I connect a music player to line-in, and a speaker to line-out, I should get the same music coming out on line-out?15:42
lekernelyeah15:42
lekernelbut only when flickernoise is running15:42
wolfspraulit seems there is an ongoing noise or something15:42
lekernel(you can click "audio" in the gui to get the mixer table)15:42
lekernelyeah, that lm4550 produces a noticeable amount of noise with some speakers15:42
lekernelthat's one of the hw problems we have15:43
wolfspraulare there any requirements for the equipment so that this works? you think the hardware is bug free? (to the degree that we care)15:43
lekernelit's normal line audio15:43
lekernelyeah, we don't care about the output noise, especially since it seems we can't fix it easily15:43
lekernelaudio output is an extra feature15:43
wolfspraulwhy can't we fix it?15:44
lekernelbecause I don't know where it comes from, and investigation sinks time15:44
wolfspraulis this noise with all speakers - you say 'some', can you elaborate a bit moer?15:44
wolfspraulyou have seen some with less/no noise?15:44
lekernelyes15:45
wolfspraulbut you don't know what the requirements are that will make it noise free?15:45
lekernelbut it could simply be a false impression depending on the configuration of the speakers etc.15:45
lekernelI did not measure anything15:45
lekernelyeah... if you care, maybe replace the lm4550 with a more high-end ac97 codec (they have some degree of footprint compatibility)15:46
lekernelbut that's not something worthy of time imo15:46
wolfspraulis the lm4550 configurable to some degree? or is it definitely a hardware problem?15:46
lekernelfyi the ML401, which has the same codec chip, also had a nice amount of output noise15:47
wolfspraulyes, replace codec doesn't sound right to me15:47
lekerneland it was not only white noise like the M1, you could hear other parts working like the DRAM15:47
lekerneli think it's a hardware problem, but definitely not an important one15:47
wolfspraulwell, first we need to know our product well, and manage expectations.15:48
wolfspraulanyway, you answered all my questions - thanks!15:48
lekernelif I were to fix it the first thing i'd try is replace the codec chip15:48
wolfspraulthe line-in is not affected by this?15:48
lekernelit seems to be affected as well, but to a lesser degree15:49
lekernelbut quite frankly I haven't done measurements or investigations on this very minor issue15:49
lekernelthe only thing I tried was additional power supply filtering (that 4.3V regulator)15:50
lekernelbut it did not improve15:50
lekernelbtw I think you can simply leave off that regulator on rc3, and simply use the shorting 0 ohm placeholder that was made for that15:50
wolfspraulhave you ever recorded line-in and played it back on a noise-free system?15:53
lekernelno15:54
CIA-59flickernoise: Sebastien Bourdeauducq master * rf791278 / src/Makefile : Remove MCS - http://bit.ly/i99pAh15:57
wolfspraulok got it - thanks, all understood now15:58
lekernel_#$!{!# when are they going to get that irc network to function properly...16:42
kristianpaullekernel_: what is J3 for?16:44
kristianpaulaudio expansion header?16:44
lekernel_Fallenou: but who the hell is attacking the freenode servers?17:00
lekernel_and continuously for years17:00
lekernel_the hatred goes deep ...17:00
FallenouIt's not always an attack, but sometimes it is17:01
Fallenoua 15 years-old dumbass17:01
Fallenouscript kiddies17:01
kristianpaulyeah17:01
FallenouI have attacks everyday on EpiKnet17:02
Fallenousome are really strong botnet attacks17:02
Fallenouwith a lot of different IP address17:02
kristianpaulwhat was that scrip to parse verilog modules to html?..17:11
kristianpaulscript*17:11
kristianpaulah. nv17:11
kristianpaulv2html17:11
Action: kristianpaul need a better way of visualize core interconnect in mm1 than with vim17:18
Fallenouyou could load it in ISE17:20
Fallenouit shows the block diagrams17:20
kristianpaulI want avoid that17:21
lekernel_opensparc is using something like that (iirc)17:23
Fallenoukristianpaul: no target rtems when doing make rtems17:34
Fallenouin your lua port17:34
Fallenouoh it's in src17:34
Fallenouyou forgot to mention cd src17:34
Fallenou:)17:34
kristianpaulah17:34
kristianpauljaja17:34
Fallenouok it's working nicely :)17:35
Fallenoui printed hello :p17:35
kristianpaul:-)17:35
Fallenou(I don't know anything about lua)17:35
kristianpaulme either, but i will learn ..17:35
Fallenouso yes you should add the "cd src" in your blog article17:36
Fallenouit may confuse someone17:37
Fallenoueven if it seems straight forward to you :)17:37
kristianpaulbefore make rtems?17:37
Fallenouyes17:37
Fallenouor even better17:38
Fallenoucd milkymist-lua ; git checkout milkymist ; cd src17:38
Fallenoufor replace ; by &&17:38
Fallenouor*17:38
kristianpauldone17:38
Fallenouthanks17:38
lekernel_http://www.sigasi.com/content/verilogs-major-flaw17:41
lekernel_hm, I thought all VHDL does is also add a delta delay to every assignment...?17:42
kristianpaulhttp://kristianpaul.org/~paul/tmp/mm1_html/17:44
Fallenounice :)17:47
kristianpaulwell, at least is browsable17:48
Fallenouyep17:49
lekernel_afaik http://books.google.be/books?id=_VGghBpoK6cC&lpg=PR12&ots=F2kIzTXUA3&dq=sutherland%20gotcha%2029&hl=en&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q&f=false also applies to VHDL, though the blog post seems to suggest otherwise17:50
lekernel_any expert with such details here?...17:50
Fallenouverilog may have two assignment17:52
Fallenouvhdl has signals avec variables17:52
FallenouI don't know if it's a good thing17:52
lekernel_ah: http://www.sigasi.com/janhdl17:53
lekernel_http://www.sigasi.com/content/vhdls-crown-jewel17:54
Fallenouwow that's crazy17:59
lekernel_yeah and rather dull. it's almost never useful in practice and always cause problems.18:00
Fallenouso if I understand correctly18:02
Fallenoufor thinks like18:02
Fallenoua = b xor c;18:02
Fallenouwithout clock or anything18:02
Fallenouwe should use the =18:02
Fallenouand for click sensitiv things we should use <=18:03
Fallenouclock *18:03
lekernel_yup. but blocking assignments (=) are also very useful in some places where there is a clock18:06
lekernel_(like vhdl variables)18:06
Fallenouhum ok18:07
FallenouI'm not sure to understand really the difference18:07
lekernelurgh, the sigasi license is 1800¬18:16
lekernelquite pricey for a IDE18:16
Fallenouarg it's Eclipse based18:17
Fallenouthey did not integrate any synthesis tool :p18:18
Fallenouthey are not that crazy18:18
lekernelasic tools are expensive :p18:20
Fallenouwell when you pay some millions for the asic mask, you can pay some more for the tools :p18:20
lekernelyay, I managed to reduce the runtime of the antares xdlrc parser from 3 hours to less than 2 minutes18:36
lekerneldid you know? the smallest spartan6 has 333797 unique on-chip programmable wires :) (unless said parser has bugs)18:37
Fallenousounds like we have a "open source synthetizer" conference for the 28C3 lekernel ;)19:08
kristianpaulFallenou: i think will be more than a  synthetizer for that time ;-)20:44
mumptaihi21:37
kristianpaulhi21:45
kristianpauldammit23:30
kristianpaulis me or gcc port for lm32 dint know about the mico32 cycle counter..23:31
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