#milkymist IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-03-02

terpstramwalle, yeah, i had it sort-of working. i could see the register contents anyway. however, it couldn't step the program or resume.10:40
terpstraand the transfer rate was ... 9 bytes/second!10:40
terpstrawhen i tried to use it to load firmware10:40
lekernelhttp://makerfaireuk.com/ ...at the US event last year they had a few good spots15:27
wpwraklekernel: i see a lot of kids in the pictures ... which seems oddly appropriate :)15:31
kristianpaulmake fair? bah..15:48
kristianpaulreally thats the top15:48
kristianpaulmakeR15:49
kristianpauland i own reprap (just for fun)15:49
kristianpaulnorth americans and his faires ..15:49
kristianpaulnice patch http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=943333219018:27
lekernelwpwrak: I would indeed say that 98% of the makerfaire is arduino led blinkers and similar crap. but at the US event they still had some good stuff like someone messing with a stirling cryocooler to make liquid nitrogen and Jeri's DIY transistors. and unfortunately, those remaining 2% are hard to find otherwise21:41
lekernelmaybe I should organize a festival with only those :)21:42
lekernelfunny, xilinx has released ise 13.1 with support for their vaporware 7-series devices you can't buy21:43
rohlekernel: i think you are wrong there.21:43
rohyou can never get those 2% without the 98% stuff which is 'NIH'21:43
rohor 'boring' for our level of understanding technology. others need and do that to learn.21:44
rohhumans do not have a rectangular learning curve21:44
lekernelNIH21:45
lekernel?21:45
rohNot Invented Here21:45
lekernelwell, ok, maybe not only those 2%21:46
lekernelbut at least raise the bar a bit21:46
Fallenoulekernel: I don't know if I will go21:46
Fallenouit looks great21:46
Fallenoubut it's far away from london21:46
Fallenouit might be expensive21:46
FallenouI will have a look on the train ticket price21:47
Fallenoubtw what do you think of this : http://cgi.ebay.fr/oscilloscope-RIGOL-DS1052E-/360347780255?pt=FR_YO_MaisonJardin_Bricolage_ElectroniqueComposants&hash=item53e666c49f#ht_500wt_115621:47
Fallenouis this good for 200 EUR ?21:47
lekernellondon is expensive as shit, so trains should be cheap by comparison :)21:47
rohFallenou: doesnt sound that bad.21:48
lekernel50 MHz...mh, a bit weak I'd say21:48
rohi mean.. its 200E for a dso. should be ok for a hobbyist.21:48
Fallenouyes but it looks cheap21:48
Fallenoucompared to brand new scope21:48
lekernelbut it has a good amount of memory21:48
Fallenoui've seen 50 MHz scope for like 400 eur :x21:49
Fallenouscope is amazingly usefull and amazingly expensive at the same time21:49
lekernelI have a 80MHz scope I paid 50E for. but analogue and no storage21:49
rohi paid 550E for my welec which istn thaat much better in reality21:49
rohbut has 4 channels21:49
Fallenouoh must be heavy21:49
rohalso got a hameg HM204 (20mhz analog 2 channel) but thats not useful mostly21:50
Fallenou2 channels + 1 trigger is nice too, you can do stuff with that21:50
Fallenoulekernel: where did you find your analog scope ?21:50
lekernelat an amateur radio second hand market21:51
FallenouI might try to contact my old old school which might have old analog scope21:51
lekernelactually, i'm better off with that analogue thing21:51
Fallenoupersonnally I don't care that much, analog or not21:51
lekernelI had a DSO before and it went berserk when you exceeded it bandwidth a little21:51
Fallenouas long as I can see my signal :)21:51
rohanalog scopes are dead cheap now.21:51
rohi got mine all free21:52
Fallenouwhen you say with memory, it means i can "stop", right ?21:52
lekernelthis analogue thing behaves when you exceed its maximum frequency21:52
Fallenouand scroll a little bit21:52
rohleftovers from repair shops using proper hw21:52
rohFallenou: storage oscilloscope. jap.21:52
lekerneland when I need something beefier, I can always borrow one...21:52
rohanalog storage was very complicated, heavy and sucky. dont get that. its not worth the pain.21:52
Fallenouhumm ok21:53
rohso in the end everbody out there doing digital stuff has a dso as 'new world device' to complete what you can't do with a voltmeter alone21:53
Fallenouwe have a 4 channels analog with storage scope at the club at school21:53
Fallenoubut it sucks21:53
Fallenou3 channels are dead ...21:53
Fallenouand so on21:53
lekernelFallenou: is that the scope we played with at minet?21:54
rohanalog storage was ... not nice to use from a HIG pov.21:54
Fallenouhumm actually it's at INTech21:54
Fallenoumaybe it's the one you are talking about21:54
Fallenousince we only have one scope21:54
Fallenouit's a big big fat heavy old scope21:54
rohhave only used that on a analog modular tek once.. but it was something like 50 or 60cm deep and i couldnt lift it alone21:54
lekernelwell, that day when I came over and we played with the e10k and such21:54
Fallenouwith a big keayboard to do mathematical operations21:55
FallenouFFT and such21:55
rohfft.. such modern toys *ducks*21:55
Fallenouyes I remember, but I don't remember having used the scope21:55
Fallenoubut if it was an analog scope yes it would be the INTech one21:56
Action: Fallenou hesitates to buy this scope21:56
Fallenou50 MHz is not very high frequency21:56
Fallenouthis one goes higher and is cheaper : http://cgi.ebay.fr/OSCILLOSCOPE-HEMLET-PACART-/220744374621?pt=FR_YO_MaisonJardin_Bricolage_ElectroniqueComposants&hash=item336563d95d#ht_500wt_115621:57
rohFallenou: its ok for any arduino hacking and similar microcontroller stuff.21:57
lekernelFallenou: i'd check with your local hamradio club, they sometimes have very good stuff21:57
lekerneloften old school analogue though :)21:57
roheeeek.21:57
lekernelwell, I happen to like analogue scopes.21:58
rohdont buy used analog non-dso stuff.. usually not worth any money21:58
Fallenouroh: yes for arduilol 16 MHz is enough :)21:58
lekerneloh, come on21:58
Fallenoubut I don't want to just be able to scope arduilol21:58
rohFallenou: nope. remember.. nyquist?21:58
Fallenouoh oh ok21:58
Fallenouthen 32 ?21:59
lekernelyou can do lots of stuff with a decent analogue scope21:59
lekernelmuch more than with a crappy dso21:59
Fallenouoh sure lekernel21:59
rohFallenou: actually they should already sample atleast twice per hz.. but reality.....21:59
rohand marketing...21:59
Fallenouyes that's what i wondered21:59
Fallenouif the scope says 50 MHz21:59
Fallenouit should mean i can show 50 MHz signals22:00
rohlekernel: even a decent analog scope is worthless if you dont have repetitive signals. wich i have all the time.22:00
rohmeans i cannot do the stuff at all with a non-storage device.22:00
rohFallenou: should.22:00
Fallenouyes :x22:00
rohin that case (rigol) i tend to believe them.22:00
Fallenouthe first I linked does 1 Gig samples/sec on 1 input22:01
rohon tek and hameg, lecroy you can also believe them. on the china and noname stuff.. be careful ;)22:01
Fallenouand 500 Meg samples /sec for 2 inputs22:01
Fallenouso I guess it's really ok for it's 50 MHz22:01
rohits a combination of 'sampling frequency' and 'analog stages'22:01
Fallenouarg22:01
Fallenouok22:01
rohthe latter getting more complex with rising range22:02
Fallenouand since I want something cheap I will definitely end up with some chinese stuff :)22:02
Fallenoui gotta be careful22:02
rohe.g. i know that my welec has a not really great analog stage.. but hey.. i never needed to measure the 200mhz it can in theore (does 1gsamples)22:02
rohalso its analog absolut measured voltages arent really precise. also the adc are usually 8bit on non-highend devices. still thats all ok as long as a device helps you solve your questions fast.22:03
rohif i want absolute levels.. i dont use the scope.22:03
rohi want to know e.g. what baudrate has a serial.. or find it at all first on a unlabeled connector22:04
Fallenouthat's more to verify what is going on on digital lines and do some triggering22:05
rohexactly.22:05
FallenouI am not really fine with logic analyzers22:05
Fallenouusually you need to connect it to a PC22:05
Fallenouit samples in real time through USB at a low rate22:05
rohand usually i just capture some random bytes from the stream to look at the small and wide timing spaces to guess the baudrate. then connect the serial adapers/levelconverters/inverters and go from there.22:06
FallenouI prefer a real scope22:06
rohi have a logic analyzer here.. but i dont use it much. it needs the windows notebook stored in the same box with it to work22:06
rohthus i use my dso. much faster22:06
Fallenouyes22:06
FallenouI am a logic analyzer too22:07
Fallenoubut the software sucks22:07
Fallenouit's in Java22:07
rohhehe.. for ours there is no !win32 sw22:07
Fallenous/am/have/22:07
Fallenouit is this one http://hackaday.com/2010/02/28/open-source-logic-analyzer-2/22:07
Fallenoufirst the probes are crap, the grip grips nothing22:08
Fallenouand the software is really bad22:08
rohsigrok just istn evolved and complete enough by far22:09
rohwe got this one http://sigrok.org/wiki/File:Intronix_Logicport.jpg22:09
rohbut the manuf isnt cooperative due to stupidness22:09
Fallenouoh I didn't know this project22:09
Fallenouoh it supports the Saleae logic22:10
lekernelFallenou: heh, what to expect from hackaday stuff :)22:10
FallenouI used that, it works , but only windows22:10
Fallenoulekernel: at least it's not lolduino powered :)22:10
Fallenouthere is a beautifull fpga on it22:10
lekernelsend them something good, they ignore it. they want AMATEUR looking stuff so they can identify with it and not feel ridiculous22:10
Fallenouroh: I could try sigrok !! my logic analyzer seems to be supported :)22:11
Fallenoulekernel: lol I guess you asked them if they wanted to be a Milkymist sell point ?22:11
rohFallenou: please do. these guys need support.22:12
lekernelno... they don't sell stuff22:12
lekerneland even though I did send them milkymist links, it's not the only thing they ignored22:12
Fallenoulekernel: oh yes, I meant dangerous prototypes22:13
lekerneleven by submitting anonymously, which excludes the theory that they simply do not like me :)22:13
Fallenouwhich sells those logic analyzers22:13
Fallenoulol22:13
lekernelFallenou: the salae thing isn't too bad22:13
Fallenouworks on mac os X sigrok, nice22:13
Fallenoulekernel: yes it worked well when i used it, just limited in sample rate22:14
Fallenoubut too bad the linux port is never released22:14
lekernelit does work on linux... but binary-only software22:14
Action: roh must admint that he never had a piece of hw where the vendor sw was 'great'22:15
Fallenouoh !!22:15
FallenouI didn't know22:15
rohthat was always something written by a 3rd party22:15
Fallenoulast time I had a look it was windows only$22:15
lekernelwell, the salae software isn't bad22:15
lekernelit's very simplified, but it gets the job done22:15
lekerneland zoom/scrolling has a good feeling and usability22:16
Fallenouand the probes are good quality22:16
Fallenoufor saleae22:16
rejonlekernel met with google gsoc manager...submitting app now22:19
rejonhad lunch with her22:19
Fallenoucarol ?22:22
rejonyes22:22
lekernelrejon: cool, thanks for taking care of this22:22
rejonyah22:22
Fallenouoh nice :)22:22
Fallenouwhere did you met her ?22:22
rejonso you guys can keep hacking22:22
rejonFallenou google sf office22:22
Fallenouare you working nearbye ?22:22
Fallenounearby*22:23
rejonsf22:23
Fallenouhehe nice22:23
rejonhttp://fabricatorz.com is based here.22:23
rejonmy co.22:23
rejonmy MM1 should arrive here on friday blat!22:23
Fallenouso Milkymist would be a gsoc organization this time ?22:23
rejonwell, we hope22:23
rejoni'm trying hard!22:23
Fallenougreat :)22:23
rejonif going there for lunch qualifies ;)22:23
Fallenou:D22:23
FallenouI hope you bought her lunch =)22:24
rejongoogle free lunch22:24
rejoni gave her our http://freesouls.cc book22:24
Fallenouwell ... what was I thinking =)22:24
Fallenouoh22:25
Fallenouwhat is this about ?22:25
wpwrakFallenou: the DS1052E is USD 400 new: http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html22:26
wpwrakFallenou: i have a DS1102CD, the previous generation. they're quite good for their price. the deep memory allows you to do things like debug USB.22:27
lekernelUSB is never debugged :)22:28
wpwrakFallenou: this is what the deep memory does for you: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/teaser1.png22:28
wpwrakFallenou: zoom in  http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/teaser2.png22:28
wpwrakFallenou: download to a PC and decode: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/teaser3.png22:29
wpwraklekernel: yeah, you only fix the worst bugs and leave the rest to the next guy who comes along ;-)22:29
Fallenouoh nice22:30
Fallenouwhat soft is teaser3 ?22:30
Fallenouit' in the pc ?22:30
lekernelwpwrak: what do you use for decoding like this?22:30
lekerneland where is that clock coming from?22:31
lekernelUSB is asynchronous...22:31
Fallenoui guess it's the sampling clock from the scope22:32
wpwraklekernel: the decodes comes from there: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/ahrt/host/tmc/22:32
wpwraklekernel: the clock is the reconstructed USB clock22:32
lekernelso your software reconstructs the clock? nice22:32
wpwraklekernel: here's the USB decoding "frontend": http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/atusb/fw/an22:33
lekernelcool22:33
lekernelwhen did you develop that?22:33
wpwraklekernel: dec.py does clock reconstruction and stuff, then hands the digitized waveforms to the interactive decoder22:34
wpwraklekernel: hmm, the USB part must have been around december 200922:34
Fallenouhumm so $40022:35
wpwraklekernel: the rest of the system is a bit older. i used it to chase weird bugs in openmoko's SDIO (for the wifi module)22:35
wpwraklekernel: here's an example with SDIO: http://people.openmoko.org/werner/wlan-spi/spi-poll.png22:37
wpwraklekernel: that uses the logic analyzer in the ds1102cd. the LA has issues with spurious transitions and crosstalk, but if you massage the data long enough, you can get useful results with it22:39
Fallenouwhat did you use SDIO for ?22:39
wpwraklekernel: and it's a fraction of the price of an MSO from a more reputable vendor ;-)22:39
wpwrakFallenou: we had a WLAN module connected via SDIO inside the Openmoko Freerunner phone22:40
Fallenouoh wlan :)22:40
Fallenouis SDIO widespread in embedded systems ?22:40
wpwrakFallenou: SPI and I2C are more common. but you run into SDIO from time to time, too22:42
Fallenouhum ok :)22:42
wpwrakah, here's the test setup i used back then: http://people.openmoko.org/werner/sdio-test-setup.jpg22:44
wpwrakas one can see, i cleaned the table extra for the photo occasion ;-)22:44
Action: lekernel is downloading ise 13.1. let's see what's inside those vaporware chips.22:49
Fallenouwpwrak: i'm a bit confused, can the DS11052E show a 100 MHz signal ?22:51
Fallenouit says 50 MHz in the title22:51
FallenouDS1052*22:51
lekernelah, they even published technical docs: http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/7_series.htm22:52
lekernelgiven the long time it took them between s3 and s6 and the mess s6 was, I expect the worst for the 7 which has been announced even during s6 wasn't really available22:53
Fallenouhttp://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4213637/Xilinx-provides-first-product-details-for-EPP-ARM-based-devices?sf1134022=122:55
Fallenou:)22:55
wpwrakFallenou: it can show a 100 MHz signal, but it will be severely attenuated. normally, the analog bandwidth is given for a -3 dB attenuation.22:56
Fallenouoh they use stacked interconnect22:56
wpwrakFallenou: if you go to twice the frequency, you'll lose another dB or such22:57
Fallenouhum ok22:57
Fallenouso the values I will see won't be the real values22:57
Fallenoubut the global shape will be kind of the same22:58
lekernelhmm... seems to be largely a die shrink of the 6's22:59
lekernelgood, easier to support in llhdl :)22:59
wpwrakFallenou: the shape of curves will change. that is, unless they're already pure sinus23:01
Fallenouwell they added hard coded arm core + ADC23:06
Fallenouand it uses stacked interconnect so maybe the format of the description files will change ?23:07
mwalleone of the rigol scope can be upgraded with software23:12
mwalleiirc it was the 100mhz scope, which can be upgraded to 200mhz23:12
Fallenouhumm 50 to 100 ?23:14
Fallenoubut I think they fixed that :x23:14
Fallenouhttp://hackaday.com/2010/03/10/50mhz-to-100mhz-scope-conversion/23:14
mwallehttp://www.abload.de/img/img_20110228_181346a7y5.jpg23:19
mwallebtw we got some new nifty scope :)23:19
mwallehttp://www.abload.de/img/img_20110228_181356f7ir.jpg23:19
mwalleterpstra: that juart protocol is rather slow.. esp if your jtag pod isnt fast, i archieved 900bytes/s iirc, you could use the dp version though23:23
mwalle'lm32 debug_protocol enable' iirc23:24
Fallenou900 bytes/s, reminds me of the wifi at my office :)23:24
mwallelol :)23:26
Action: Fallenou is tempted by the rigol ds1052E23:27
Fallenouif I can upgrade it to 100 MHz23:27
Fallenouit's awesome23:27
mwallealthough we have that high speed scope now.. there was no more money for more than one differential probe ...23:27
Fallenoutoday I had to hold 3 probes with my hand23:28
Fallenouhow do you hold 3 differential probes ? :p23:28
Action: Fallenou is thinking about upgrading his body with new arms and hands23:29
mwalleuse pliers with some rubber around the handles23:32
mwallebut be sure it wont squeeze to much :)23:32
mwalleagilent sells some kind if this for 50 EUR ...23:33
mwallealthough we connect our diff probes usually like this: http://www2.tek.com/cmsreplive/psrep/img/13426/A000_7985-L.jpg23:37
lekernelFallenou: they didn't add the arm core23:38
Fallenouoh?23:39
FallenouThe Zynq-7000 family integrates a complete ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore processor-based system  <- ?23:40
Fallenouwhat about that ?23:40
lekernelit's just hot air now23:44
lekernelit seems they changed the routing structure in kintex 7 too23:44
lekernelthere is this new freaky "VBRK" switch box i'll have to figure out23:45
lekernelat least I guess it's a switch box23:45
mwallehm that tmc is nice..23:49
mwallei used vxi11 with a python wrapper for the same thing23:50
mwallegn8 :)23:51
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