#milkymist IRC log for Friday, 2011-02-11

kristianpaulhi jackgassett13:00
jackgassettthanks, I wanted to drop by and chat with some people working on the milkymist project.13:02
jackgassettI have an open source FPGA board called the Papilio One.13:02
jackgassettI was just chatting in my channel over at #GadgetFactory and we were talking about the milkymist project.13:03
jackgassettThe Papilio One is a low end FPGA board.13:05
lekernelyup i'm checking that out13:05
jackgassettI thought it would be cool to make milkymist run on the P1 but don't want to do so if it conflicts with the high end Milkymist One board.13:06
lekernelport milkymist soc?13:06
lekerneloh, go ahead13:06
jackgassettI saw the Avnet port and thought that would most likely run on the P1.13:06
lekernelit's definitely not going to conflict, people who buy small boards like yours wouldn't buy a milkymist board anyway13:07
jackgassettBut without looking too closely I couldn't tell if the avnet port was just the SOC portion.13:07
lekerneland it'll have a lot less features (no sdram, no video, etc.)13:07
jackgassettwell, I do have a VGA video "Wing".13:08
lekernelbut still it could be nice to have a small cpu-based system (like the avnet port)13:08
jackgassettAnd wanted to use Milkymist as a small demo of what can be done with the video wing.13:08
lekernelwhat's on that video wing?13:09
jackgassettbut maybe the video features need more ram?13:09
jackgassettnothing fancy, just resistors. No RAM or anything.13:09
lekernelflickernoise uses around 25 megabytes, the demo firmware about 4 iirc13:09
lekernelyou need SDRAM13:09
lekernelalso the s3e500 wouldn't accomodate the graphics acceleration13:10
jackgassettok, what I really want is a SOC system with a video controller section. It wouldn't need a lot of memory because the VGA wing only provides 8 colors.13:11
lekernelwhat can still be done is a small cpu system and a very low resolution vga out13:11
jackgassettand a future wing will provide 4096 colors.13:11
jackgassettyes, that is exactly what I was hoping for. With the goal being to make it easy for people to make interfaces etc.13:12
jackgassettAnd do interesting things with the VGA output.13:12
jackgassettcool, I'll have to dig in and look more closely. I really just wanted to touch base with you and make sure it would not be a conflict of interest.13:15
kristianpauldo you have a sdram wind?13:15
jackgassettnot right now. I have a new board coming out that uses the Spartan 3A and has SDRAM built in.13:15
jackgassettBut it will be a couple more months before it is ready.13:15
lekernelisn't spartan 3a already on its way to obsolescence?13:16
kristianpaullekernel: does he really need sdram for basic vga stuff?13:17
jackgassettI think the price is right for the type of boards I'm offering. When the board was designed the Spartan 6 still did not have an option that was under $20.13:18
kristianpauli think actually Fallenou have an ping ping game fot avnet board13:18
lekernelusually yes, unless you have a resolution like 320x200 16 colors13:18
jackgassettI just recently saw their Logic optimized options. I would have selected that if it was available at the time.13:18
lekernelbut people are already whining because mm isn't running in hd resolutions atm :)13:19
jackgassettI have Pac-Man running on the Papilio One now.13:19
kristianpauljackgassett: what is your relation with gadget factory btw?13:19
kristianpauljackgassett: nice13:19
kristianpauldo you have a repo?13:20
kristianpaulwhat are your plans with mikymist in the future?13:20
jackgassettI'm the owner.13:20
jackgassettkristianpaul: I was getting the link to the repo and just realized the site is down!13:21
jackgassettMy VPS provider is usually pretty solid but they seem to be down right now.13:21
kristianpaulok.. thats hapens13:21
jackgassettok, back up.13:22
kristianpaullekernel: from the mm1 soc an and avnet port, the mico32 version is same isnt?13:22
lekernelI don't remember13:23
jackgassettkristianpaul: are you asking my plans?13:23
kristianpauljackgassett: yes13:23
jackgassettWell, my goal for the P1 is to provide a ton of concrete examples of the sort of things you can do with an FPGA.13:23
kristianpaulYour site is nice, i wast aware of poeple seliing fpga based kits13:24
jackgassettSo I try to port the best projects I can find out there, usually in just a basic form. And I put together tutorial videos and example projects for doing things like implementing serial ports etc.13:24
lekernelkristianpaul: so milkymist doesn't count?13:24
jackgassettSo I would only want to get a limited version of Milkymist running on the P1.13:25
kristianpaullekernel: no no, that is already on my list !!13:25
jackgassettThe board will never do what the Milkymist One can do.13:25
jackgassettbut it could bring exposure, at a low cost, to the project.13:26
jackgassettI want to be the Arduino for FPGA's.13:26
jackgassettThe idea is that someone buys the P1 for $50 and then browses through the repository and can test out all kinds of cool projects.13:27
jackgassettIf they like the limited milkymist project then they can move on to the fully featured Milkymist One board.13:28
jackgassettI think it is beneficial to everyone but can understand if a project owner doesn't like the idea.13:29
kristianpaulyou i'll happy with a mm soc, with just processor, serial port and IO plus vga i guess?13:29
jackgassettyes, I think that would be perfect.13:29
lekernel_jackgassett: if you start with the avnet port it should be quite easy13:30
jackgassettdoes the avnet port include VGA?13:30
jackgassettok, so I would have to add that in.13:30
lekernelbut the milkymist vga controller requires a SDRAM bus anyway13:30
lekerneland is generally optimized for SDRAM based systems13:31
lekernelso you wouldn't want that13:31
jackgassettcould it be converted to use BRAM for smaller VGA usage?13:31
kristianpauljackgassett: but includes gpio (sysctl) you can clone that and implement a simple vga13:31
kristianpaulit think you may already have the core for that isnt?13:31
lekerneljust use dual port RAM, with one port for CPU access and the other to scan the framebuffer13:31
kristianpaulah yes :-)13:32
jackgassettok, and milkymist SOC and software would make it easy to write to the framebuffer...13:32
lekernelit'll a lot easier than messing around with the current core, that is designed to handle memory latencies, bus contention and memory burst access13:32
lekerneljust map the framebuffer to system memory, then you can run C code that display nice graphics13:33
jackgassettok, sounds awesome.13:34
kristianpauland is easy!13:35
jackgassettWhen I get ramped up to start working on it I'll keep you guys posted.13:35
jackgassettI think it would be really nice to have a low end board that people could do graphics on.13:36
jackgassettThats something the Arduino cannot really do. People would appreciate being able to do that easily.13:36
lekernelyeah, in turn it'd be nice to introduce people to milkymist soc as well13:37
lekernelmany tech enthusiasts wrongly think that MM1 is super-complex and super-expensive and not for them13:37
kristianpauleven, well i think you can port arduino lagunage to the board, is gcc so well...13:37
lekernelarduino language? ah, it's C :)13:38
jackgassettkristianpaul: already done!13:38
kristianpauljackgassett: oh !13:38
kristianpaullekernel: arduino functions ;-)13:38
lekernelthe funny thing is that people who write 'arduino language' are often afraid of C13:38
kristianpaulhehe yes13:38
jackgassettThe P1 runs a sketches on an AVR compatible soft processor already.13:39
lekernelwhich avr clone did you use btw?13:39
kristianpauli see13:39
jackgassettarduino language is really C++.13:39
kristianpaulnavr... ;-)13:39
jackgassettAVR8 clone from Ruslan.13:39
jackgassettoff opencores.13:39
jackgassettIt is very good so far.13:39
lekernelah, I think I saw that one already13:40
jackgassettIt is the best one I found.13:40
jackgassettmost complete.13:40
jackgassettHaven't had any problems running sketches.13:40
jackgassettPart of what I'm doing is trying to make FPGA's not be perceived as so scary.13:40
kristianpauldo you use urjtag to load bitstream the board?13:41
jackgassetta modified version of xc3sprog.13:41
jackgassettalso programs SPI flash.13:41
lekernelit was rather slow... and vhdl...13:41
jackgassettI used to use urjtag but sc3sprog is better.13:41
kristianpaulbut is integrated with the arduino like IDE?13:41
jackgassettxc3sprog programs the bitstream in 500ms13:41
jackgassettYou just press upload and the sketch is running on the board in couple of seconds.13:42
kristianpaulnice work13:42
lekernelwhy do you need to program the bitstream for this?13:42
jackgassettI added makefile support to the arduino source.13:42
jackgassettwell, with the arduino flow it does this:13:42
jackgassetthex file is generated with avr-gcc.13:43
jackgassetthex file is converted to mem file.13:43
jackgassettmem file is merged into bram in bitstream which contains AVR8 processor.13:43
lekernelah, ok13:43
jackgassettmerged bitstream is loaded with xc3sprog to the FPGA.13:43
lekernelhow do you merge the bram into the bitstream?13:43
jackgassettwith Xilinx tool.13:44
lekernelargh :)13:44
lekernelyou should try to RE and rewrite that one, it shouldn't be too hard13:44
kristianpaullekernel: how is it done in navre?13:44
lekernelotherwise people have to install 8GB of auxiliary crap to run your stuff13:45
lekernelkristianpaul: the lm32 core loads the avr program over the CSR bus13:45
jackgassettwell, I noticed that avnet and digilent package the data2mem executable with their projects.13:45
jackgassettso I do the same.13:45
lekerneland wishbone13:45
jackgassettdoes the milkymist SOC implement wishbone?13:53
kristianpaulbut i think is not the upstream version13:54
lekernelit has wishbone and 2 other buses13:54
jackgassettnice, I've been meaning to implement that in a soft processor.13:55
jackgassettnever enough time to do all you want to do.13:55
jackgassettI shied away from lm32 because I thought it had a funny license at one point.13:56
kristianpaulall you do is lekernel :-)13:56
kristianpaulmm soc have a nice/simple CSR bus too jackgassett13:56
lekernelit's BSD-like, the sucky part is they have integrated US export restriction clauses in it13:56
lekernelbut just like you don't care about the data2mem license, I don't care about them13:56
lekernelmaybe lm32 will be replaced at some point, antgreen (who sometimes comes to this channel) is working on moxie which looks promising13:57
jackgassettcool, someone just contributed a Zylin ZPU port called ZPUino.13:59
jackgassettIt works with Arduino IDE too.13:59
jackgassett32 bit, 100Mhz, uses 60% of 250K chip.13:59
lekernelZPU is so slow it's worthless14:01
jackgassettah, ok, thats good to know.14:02
lekernelthe clock frequency is high, but it takes several dozens of cycles for most instructions that take one cycle on a better arch like AVR14:02
jackgassettwell, thats the beauty of FPGA, easy to change.14:02
jackgassettwell, not easy.14:02
jackgassettbut possible.14:02
lekernelyour 100MHz ZPU might perform like a 300kHz AVR14:02
kristianpaulmilkyduino :D14:05
jackgassettwhy not.14:06
mwallemhh seem that there has to be a v3 of my target-lm32/ patchset :(17:53
kristianpaulAny comments on http://yasep.org/ ?19:31
kristianpaulargg vhdl..19:35
kristianpaul[florian]: are you the florian from linuxtogo?20:36
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