#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2016-05-07

whitequarkDocScrutinizer51: I just committed DXF import to SolveSpace04:42
wpwrakwhitequark: btw, when you have "connected" geometries, how do you transport bits from one to the other ? e.g., in the case of the anelok case, the "wedge" is made of two circles and both outer tangents. i don't know the length of the tangents (without calculating it). that length would in turn go to anything that defines the top side. e.g., a window or window frame. how would solvespace transport that value (or equivalent) from one ske06:12
wpwraktch to the next ?06:12
whitequarkI have no idea what are you talking about06:13
whitequark"wedge"? wtf06:15
wpwrakah, this is the overall form: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/case-interim/case-20150714.png06:15
wpwrakthought you knew it06:15
wpwrakon the side, the battery defines one circle. there's another one on the other end, smaller (with a more or less arbitrary radius)06:16
wpwraki have the two radii plus the distance between the two centers06:17
wpwrakthe top and bottom flat side is basically the two outer tangents on these circles / cylinders, extruded down the width of the case06:18
wpwraknow, one would want to do things that are based on the geometry of these flat sides. such as placing a window at the right spot06:18
wpwraknow would the 2D sketch that defines what's going on on the flat sides learn the length of the tangent ?06:19
wpwrak(or the points / lines where tangents touch circle / cylinder)06:20
whitequarksolvespace does not have 2d sketches06:27
whitequarkall sketches are inherently 3d, although when you are drawing "in 2d", all points are implicitly constrained in plane06:28
wpwrakso you do it all in the same 3D space as the main model ?06:28
whitequarkthere's no "main model"06:28
whitequarkevery sketch has one global coordinate space06:28
wpwrakso it's all in the same 3D space06:28
wpwrakokay, that should make this sort of "export/import" trivial06:29
wpwrakalso probably also more understandable than the mix of "sketches" and other stuff in freecad :) (i dodge all this by scripting model generation, but that's of course not really the nicest way)06:31
wpwrakwhitequark: playing with solvespace ... how do you use variables for geometry constraints09:30
wpwrakerr, i mean for dimensions09:31
wpwrakand when it goes red, it seems there's not much of a choice but to backpedal out with undo ? or is there a way to find out what's wrong and fix it more directly09:31
wpwraksame point constraints seem to come apart when it goes red :(09:35
wpwrakalso not so nice that redundant constraints make it go red, without indicating where the conflict is09:37
wpwraknice that one can select constraints directly. not so nice: if two share the same indication, one sees only one09:40
wpwrakwhitequark: the number of arc segments is sometimes confusingly low09:52
wpwrakwhitequark: playing with my wedge shape: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/slvs/wedge-070654.slvs09:55
wpwraknot everything is quite right there, though. e.g., there should be a global "wall thickness" parameter that gets used to calculate the big cylinder-arc (or whatever this is called) based on its inner cylinder, which is in turn battery diameter + a bit of slack09:57
wpwrakthe browser window is a bit inconvenient: should either stay on top of the main window or at least the main window shouldn't raise itself when clicked10:03
DocScrutinizer05not like there are no desktops that can do that12:48
whitequarkwpwrak: you can't use variables in constraints (yet)18:23
whitequarkwpwrak: when it goes red, the browser window shows which constraints are problematic and what you can do about it18:28
wpwrakewww :(18:28
wpwrakah, should position the browser window more prominently then. i only found it by accident18:29
whitequarkthe browser window is extremely important in solvespace, everything is done through it18:29
wpwrakit disappears easily under the model window18:30
whitequarkyour WM is broken18:31
whitequarkthere's an "always on top" flag set on the browser window18:31
wpwrakthat information doesn't seem t make it18:31
wpwrak(using fvwm here)18:31
whitequarkit's the standard icccm flag. i3 respects it18:31
whitequarkditto any common WMs (kwm and whatever gnome and unity use)18:32
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: wpwrak's window manager is known to not support those flags like "always on top"18:34
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: "< whitequark> your WM is broken"18:34
DocScrutinizer05that's why I answered18:35
whitequarki specifically positioned it more prominently18:35
whitequarkdunno what else can i do18:35
whitequarkwpwrak: "the number of arc segments is sometimes confusingly low" configuration -> chord tolerance18:35
whitequarkfor display it's specified in % of model bounding box18:36
whitequarksince that gives you consistent results regardless of part scale18:36
whitequarkfor export it's specified in mm, e.g. if you want to 3d-print18:36
DocScrutinizer05how about (heresy warning) a non-multiwindowed UI?18:37
whitequarkwpwrak: "same point constraints seem to come apart when it goes red :("18:37
DocScrutinizer05iirc aka modal vs non-modal18:37
whitequarkwhen it's red, the solver can't do anything, not even propagate point-coincident constraints18:38
DocScrutinizer05(though I think that had another meaning, about focus grab)18:38
whitequarkyou aren't supposed to do anything in that mode except fix them18:38
whitequarkwpwrak: "nice that one can select constraints directly. not so nice: if two share the same indication, one sees only one"18:38
whitequarkyou can hover constraints in the browser window18:38
whitequarkand you get a highlight in the graphics window18:38
whitequarkso you can distinguish them by the name18:39
whitequarkyou can also right-click on points and select "delete point-coincident" if that helps18:39
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: yes modal is about focus18:39
whitequarkre non-multiwindow UI: I have no especial objection to that, but the architecture I inherited makes that hard18:39
DocScrutinizer05can't recall which program allowed selection of either multiwindow or one-window (tiled) GUI18:40
whitequarkeh plenty of programs have something like "dock"18:41
DocScrutinizer05checked eagle but can't find it there. gimp maybe?18:41
whitequarkgimp yes18:41
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: can you snap windows into other windows?18:44
DocScrutinizer05k, nice try 18:44
whitequarksomething to keep in mind is that i have to support three platforms18:44
whitequarkwin32 cocoa and gtk18:45
whitequarkso tricks like snapping windows onto others need quite a lot of work to implement18:46
DocScrutinizer05not a suggestion but a question18:47
whitequarkQt is shit on OS '18:47
whitequarkOS X18:47
DocScrutinizer05so I gather it doesn't use qt18:47
whitequarknot the library itself but the UI it creates18:47
whitequarkno, I use native win32 and cocoa interfaces on those platforms18:47
whitequarkthats the only way to get a *good* UI18:48
DocScrutinizer05yep, prolly right18:48
DocScrutinizer05eagle "recently" switched to Qt and I have to say I'm not impressed much, even on linux18:49
whitequarkit was like a decade ago at least18:49
DocScrutinizer05like maybe a year ago18:49
whitequarka year ago they switched from qt3 (iirc) to qt518:50
DocScrutinizer05aaah k18:50
whitequarkmight have been qt4 somewhere in between, unsure. but eagle always used qt18:50
DocScrutinizer05didn't know it was Qt already18:50
whitequarkqt5 has different rendering18:50
DocScrutinizer05anyway looks like shit now18:50
whitequarkshow  me a screenshot. prolly your system is misconfigured18:51
DocScrutinizer05and still no *decent* keymapping features, particularly for mousebuttons etc18:51
whitequarkyes. no keymapping. but that's not qt's fault, eagle just has a bad ui18:51
DocScrutinizer05yep, keymapping is a genuine eagle fsckup18:53
DocScrutinizer05you can map keys, but not mousebuttons etc18:53
DocScrutinizer05also the icons of editr window are soooo yuck18:54
whitequarkyour paste is just "/srv/mirrors/devuan/files.devuan.org/"18:54
whitequarkwpwrak: looked at your "wedge", it looks reasonable to me18:55
DocScrutinizer05wstaw,org cocks up once again18:55
DocScrutinizer05prolly was eagle which even makes screenshot app act funny18:58
DocScrutinizer05but honestly look at those menus!18:59
DocScrutinizer05I guess what I don't like the most about them is the white background19:00
DocScrutinizer05I prolly need that Qt configurator to set up such stuff?19:01
whitequarkerrrr what's wrong with that? seems ok to me19:10
whitequarksame as qt5 looks over here19:10
whitequarkiirc there's a switch to get the old toolicons too19:10
whitequarkOptions -> User Interface ’ Classic icon style19:10
DocScrutinizer05the menus still look strange with that white background19:16
whitequarkdo you use kde?19:18
whitequarksystemsettings ’ application style19:19
whitequarkeagle should respect that19:19
DocScrutinizer05well, seems it doesn't?19:19
whitequarkwhat do you set there?19:19
DocScrutinizer05or is that eagle specific?19:19
whitequarkno that's systemwide19:19
DocScrutinizer05all my other menus look different in all apps19:20
whitequarkmhm, can you run eagle from console and show me any messages it prints?19:20
DocScrutinizer05since otherwise the eagle menus wouldn't look strange to me ;-)19:20
DocScrutinizer05doesn't print anything there19:22
DocScrutinizer05jr@saturn:~> ~/eagle-7.5/bin/eagle    -->zilch19:22
whitequarkand are you running kde4 or kde5?19:25
whitequarkthat's why19:26
whitequarksystemsettings4 doesn't set the right vars for qt519:26
DocScrutinizer05*sigh* I hate that shit19:26
DocScrutinizer05Qt5, honestly now? how many more versions will they need until they go "stable"19:27
whitequarkrequirements are ever-changing19:27
DocScrutinizer05what a shit19:27
whitequarkwell, no, not really19:28
whitequarkthe major reason for qt5 incompatibility is that all its drawing operations were redone in terms of GLES19:28
DocScrutinizer05so how does API care?19:28
whitequarkthere are very few breaking API changes between qt4 and qt5, mostly with good reason19:29
whitequarke.g. reducing hardcoded x11 stuff19:29
DocScrutinizer05instead of stabilizing stuff, each new version of KDE/Qt3/4/5 seems to introduce unique new bugs and problems19:30
DocScrutinizer05while keeping the old ones. or at least new bugs are more than the old abandoned ones19:30
whitequarkthe behavior you dislike right now is not a bug19:31
whitequarkit's the same problem as e.g. running gtk apps on kde5419:31
DocScrutinizer05KDE3 worked, KDE4 is crap, I'm 'really looking forward'¡ to KDE519:31
whitequark*on kde419:31
DocScrutinizer05but yeah, my distro here is already almost 2 years old, how dare I19:34
whitequarkyes. it's full of security bugs, because it's written in shitty c19:35
DocScrutinizer05the distro? Qt? KDE?19:35
whitequarkthe distro19:36
whitequarkX11 isn't even "full" of security bugs, it IS a security bug, like it's literally impossible to write a robust screenlocker for X1119:36
DocScrutinizer05yeah, so let's discard it and get wayland shit instead19:37
whitequarkX11 should have been dumped into a trashcan decades ago19:37
DocScrutinizer05and when stuff like VNC finally starts working again, I bet they already have some new leete shit we *must* adopt19:37
whitequarkit's bad at drawing stuff, it's bad at window management, it has nonexistent security19:37
whitequarkthere is absolutely nothing x11 is good at19:37
DocScrutinizer05it works19:38
whitequarkit doesn't.19:38
DocScrutinizer05here it does19:38
whitequarkit """works""" because of a pile of fragile hacks that happens to appear like it works some of the time19:38
DocScrutinizer05unless some crappy Qt5 stuff comes along19:38
whitequarklike most of unix, really19:38
DocScrutinizer05that's the way I like it19:39
whitequarkthen don't complain when others fix your shitty OS19:39
DocScrutinizer05I do19:39
DocScrutinizer05cascade of ADHS youngsters19:39
whitequarkyes, incompetent old farts are much better19:40
DocScrutinizer05particularly when the attributed "incompetent" comes from such youngsters of the sort of Poettering et al19:40
whitequarkwell, you know I am not fond of poettering19:41
whitequarkhis "fixes" aren't any better than the old broken way19:41
DocScrutinizer05there's an army of those nitwits19:41
DocScrutinizer05trying to "fix UNIX"19:41
whitequarkthat doesn't mean that the old broken way is any good though19:41
whitequarkyes, because practically every part of UNIX is broken by design. it would take an army to fix it, indeed19:42
DocScrutinizer05please roll your own OS then, leave unix alone19:42
whitequarkhalf of the core APIs are better in *Windows*19:42
DocScrutinizer05then fix windows please!19:42
larscI just wanted to say, lets all switch to windows19:42
whitequarkDebian/kWindowsNT is not a bad idea19:43
whitequarkwinnt is a great kernel19:43
whitequarkwindows userspace is shit too though19:43
DocScrutinizer05lemme put it this way: as long as those leet devels are not capable to improve on the old while keeping 100(!)% backward compatibility, they are simply not competent enough to qualify to "fix unix/linux/whatever"19:46
whitequarkyou cannot keep 100% backward compatibility19:46
whitequarkyour requirements are impossible.19:46
DocScrutinizer05you just diqualified19:46
whitequarkit's just "get off my lawn" masqueraded as "objective requirements"19:46
whitequarkand no, i won't get off your lawn, and i won't appease your stockholm syndrome either19:47
DocScrutinizer05indeed get off my lawn, instead of telling me "this wayland stuff is much better, just forget about all the tools you had so far, they don't work anymore with this new leete wayland. Incl VNC and whatnot"19:48
DocScrutinizer05replace "wayland" by "systemd" or whatever you like, in last statement19:50
DocScrutinizer05I don't see a single "requirement" that e.g. Qt4 made feasible and I missed it in Qt319:51
DocScrutinizer05I don't see any security issues with my X11 either19:51
whitequarkand.... let me find the locker ones19:52
DocScrutinizer05and for sure I don't need any systemd messing up my whole system, to cure dunno what, boottime?19:53
whitequarkhttps://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/04/i-told-you-so-again/ by the author of xscreensaver no less19:53
whitequarkthis is a problem *in x11*, because x11 has no robust way for an application to say "i'm the screen locker"19:54
whitequarkwell, no way at all, you can only try to fake it, badly19:54
DocScrutinizer05sounds like an XY problem of sorts. Somebody can't implement some crap so the underlying infra must be broken. Maybe the approachis broken and nobody really needs that crap he wants to implement?19:54
whitequarkyes. no one needs screen lockers.19:54
whitequarkhave you considered actually thinking about use cases that do not perfectly match the one thing you want to do?19:55
DocScrutinizer05I actually don't need, and even if I did, it seems they worked so far19:55
DocScrutinizer05I thinkignoring usecases is a privilege of Poettering and friends19:56
DocScrutinizer05a pretty sane rationale to nuke unix completely a reassemble it in a completely different incompatible way, to make stuff like screen lockers with session switching, audio during bootmenu, and multiseat work20:00
pigeonsneed the qr codes and http servers in the init system too20:03
DocScrutinizer05yeah, systemd is already there to meet your needs20:06
whitequarki can't stand systemd20:06
whitequarkpoettering is just as incompetent as those before him, just with more bloat20:06
DocScrutinizer05btw lovely hubris by wayland devels when they think their code would immenently have less CVEs than X1120:17
DocScrutinizer05and actually screenlocker *is* an XY problem, you can't implement a decent screenlocker on app level without support from the display/window-manager. So better implement it outside and above of the whole display-manager system tight away20:21
DocScrutinizer05right away*20:21
whitequarkyes, that's exactly what wayland does. the screenlocker is implemented in the compositor itself20:21
DocScrutinizer05no argument to go for wayland20:22
DocScrutinizer05actualy I think implementing the screensaver *into* the display manager is flawed design20:23
whitequarknot screensaver, no20:24
whitequarkkde5 doesn't have screensavers anymore20:24
DocScrutinizer05it should be a system unentangled with display manager20:24
whitequarkwhich actually pisses me off a lot but security wise it makes sense20:24
DocScrutinizer05once a screensaver was exactly that. While a login screen was something entirely different, by purpose as well as implementation20:25
whitequarkyes. screensavers and screenlockers are completely different classes of software that were wrongly intermingled20:26
DocScrutinizer05mixing up the two is arguably not the right thing to do20:26
DocScrutinizer05(screenlocker) must disable the normal display/window-manager's functions completely, incl kbd input and whatnot. Like switching to a new console (ctrl-alt-F9). Even providing support in display manager for an app to take over completely is a security risk since then any arbitrary such app could take over from display manager and intercept user's inputs20:41
whitequarkhence wayland removes the XTEST functionality, used by x screenlockers20:43
whitequarkand also, incidentally, vnc servers20:43
DocScrutinizer05you are aware why on windows you're supposed to press ctrl-alt-del to login, are you?20:44
whitequarkalt+sysrq+k on linux20:45
whitequarkthat solves a slightly different problem: someone impersonating a login screen20:45
whitequarkso you need something to be intercepted by the kernel, before it ever reaches *any* userspace20:45
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I think on ISA PC that's even deeper, you can't block it at a softzware level, causes a NMI iirc20:45
DocScrutinizer05alt-ctl-del that is20:46
whitequarkon anything 32-bit it's just a keyboard input, has to be so or you couldn't login from USB keyboards20:46
DocScrutinizer05I dunno, it actually makes sense that there's no IRQ line/wire in the kbd cable so something has to decode the keycodes20:47
whitequarkwell with PS/2 you could decode that in hardware if you wanted20:47
DocScrutinizer05maybe I'm wrong on the hw NMI thing20:47
whitequarkthats an FSM that compares three bytes, not too hard20:47
DocScrutinizer05aaaah then prolly that was it20:47
whitequarkno idea if it actually worked like that, just speculating20:48
DocScrutinizer05I guess there must be a reason for ps/2 jacks _still_ existing, and I tink I faintly recall I heard sth ölike this20:48
whitequarkthat NMI thing certainly don't happens on any 32-bit systems, that much i know20:49
DocScrutinizer05once in the PC pleozen there must have been an IRQ to recover a locked up system20:50
whitequarkps/2 jacks mostly stopped existing a few years ago, you'd be hard pressed to find such a motherboard20:50
whitequarkeven vga is practically dead20:50
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I bought a PC 1 year ago which still has them20:50
DocScrutinizer05there's a number of funny "cruft" in standard ISA PC mobos20:51
DocScrutinizer05A20-gate for example ;-)20:51
whitequarkwhat pisses me off the most is that new SoCs are just as crufty, actually probably even more so20:53
whitequarkjust hard IP slapped together by some intern20:53
whitequarkhave you heard that intel laid off most of their verification team?20:54
DocScrutinizer05wow, great!20:54
DocScrutinizer05to start with: they had any?20:54
whitequarkyes, they had a massive amount of people dedicated to that20:55
whitequarkwhich is why they were able to ship the monster that is x86 and have it work at all20:55
pigeonsi use ps2 ports for keyboards and mice to have more available usb ports21:00
DocScrutinizer05ok, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zADyh0JQh821:03
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: have you tried out the dxf import feature yet?21:05
DocScrutinizer05friggin bot went south again21:06
wpwrakwhitequark: hmm, seems that gtk_window_set_keep_above is only advisory, and you're not guaranteed that it works22:23
wpwraki wonder why the graphics window keeps in crawling on top, though. you're not calling gtk_window_present anywhere.22:23
whitequarkwpwrak: yes. it's advisory. X11 does not have any way to make that mandatory, your WM is supposed to make sure of that22:24
whitequarkand it keeps crawling on top perhaps because you're clicking on it?22:24
wpwrakthe WM is only supposed to take it into consideration :)22:24
wpwrakclicking on a window itself shouldn't raise it22:24
wpwrake.g., i can put an xterm under the browser window and click on it all day, and nothing happens22:25
whitequarkthat's windows of a different application though22:25
wpwrakor even with this xchat (under an xterm)22:25
whitequarktry doing that with two browser windows to get an accurate comparison22:25
wpwraka browser is a little universe onto itself ;-)22:26
whitequarkwell, anything else that has two nonmodal windows22:26
wpwrakif it's something gtk does by default, then there must be a way to turn it off. now, how do they call this ...22:30
whitequarkthat's not gtk, that's your WM...22:31
wpwrakof course, everyone is looking for the opposite ... how to make MY window dominate all the rest of the pile ... :(22:31
whitequarkgtk has no say in window ordering at all22:31
wpwraki'm trying to think of a bare X11 program that opens multiple windows ...22:32
wpwrakhard to find these days. but it would surprise me a bit if the WM would get involved if it doesn't care about auto-raising if windows are not from the same application22:34
whitequarkI'm sure you'll manage to open two ;)22:35
wpwrakopened two, and as expected, fvwm doesn't get involved22:38
wpwrakborrowing a bit of neo900 infrastructure: https://neo900.org/stuff/paste/w2-Iephae8k.c     https://neo900.org/stuff/paste/Makefile-Aiw4xaj122:39
whitequarkhmmmm no idea then. i continue to insist that your wm should just respect the "above" flag22:40
whitequarkthough, if you produce a patch that does work for you, i'll probably merge it22:44
wpwrakhmm, tried to  TW->set_transient_for(*GW);  but alas, no effect22:56
wpwrakthe "push to front" effect of GW is very strong22:56
wpwrakand it also does this against windows from other applications22:56
whitequarki definitely never added such behavior intentionally22:57
wpwrak... which isn't something gtk does on its own either (tried with some gtk apps of my own)22:58
whitequarkthat have two toplevel windows?22:58
wpwrake.g., i can edit around in fped all day and it never tries to displace other windows22:58
wpwraki'm testing single-window gtk vs. xterm22:59
wpwraksolvespace's GW always goes on top immediately. my gtk apps never do22:59
whitequarki'm pretty sure this is related to having two windows in one application22:59
wpwraki closed TW, and it still happens23:01
whitequarkoh, so GW is raised even against other applications?23:02
whitequarkoh, i see23:02
whitequarkare you building with GTK2 or GTK3?23:02
wpwraklibgtk-x11-2.0.so.0  and  libgtkmm-2.4.so.123:03
whitequarkok, so gtk223:03
whitequarkthats very bizarre23:04
wpwrakit seems to be caused by drawing, not the input itself. e.g., if i type "1", which seems to be ignored, nothign happens23:05
whitequarkthats not mouse23:05
wpwrakah no, G (if just toggling state) doesn't raise it either23:06
whitequarkyes, this is related to mouse23:06
wpwrakyeah, just thought it may be input in general23:06
whitequarktry commenting out line 553 and 573 in gtkmain.cpp23:07
wpwrakit's also not mouse in general :)23:07
wpwrakwheel and right-click do nothing23:07
wpwrakyup, that eliminates the raising. unless i double-click left23:09
whitequarklet's say you double-click left23:09
whitequarkand it doesn't open an editor23:09
whitequarkstill happens?23:09
wpwrakso it must be something that happens when SS processes the mouse event23:11
wpwraklet's find out what ...23:11
wpwrakbtw, i'm getting a bunch of warnings when compiling. known issue ?23:12
wpwrakoh, a few dozen. so it should compile without warnings ? here's an example: https://neo900.org/stuff/paste/yaeVo4ji23:13
whitequarkyour gtk is too old23:14
whitequarkthat's nothing i can fix, it's a gtk issue23:14
whitequarkare there others?23:15
wpwraki think so. i'll do a full build later and send you the output23:15
whitequarkgenerally i keep it warning-free, and use -Wall, so yeah23:15
wpwrakgood. that's what i thought :) wish everyone had that attitude ;-)23:16
whitequarkhm, actually -Wall is not in the build flags for some reason23:16
wpwrakhmm, this may get tricky. left click on "empty" did raise the window. commenting out the call to SS.TW.HideEditControl(); in GraphicsWindow::MouseLeftDown (mouse.cpp) make it not raise the window in this case. however, if the click selects an object, the window still raises23:20
wpwrakaaah !!! ;-)23:21
whitequark.... oh23:21
wpwrakgtk/gtkmain.cpp  HideTextEditControl(void) 23:21
whitequarkso i do in fact call it explicitly23:21
wpwrakyeah ;-)23:21
whitequarkok that's very simple to fix23:22
whitequarkwrap it in if(TW->get_overlay().is_editing()) {}23:22
whitequarkI'll commit it soon23:22
wpwrakcommented it out and it makes things a lot smoother. now, if a dialog comes up, the browser still gets pushed down. let's see if this can be fixed, too ...23:23
wpwrakmmh, no such luck :(23:25
wpwraktried to do it with set_transient_for23:25
whitequarkfwvm probably doesn't care about that either23:25
wpwrakmaybe it needs to be called at a specific time and i'm doing it too late. let's see ..23:26
wpwraknope, no effect23:37
wpwraka dialog also makes GW raise above xterms. though that looks less unexpected. let's see if this is really something "normal" ...23:38
whitequarkwpwrak: does replacing raise() with show() do something nasty on your WM?23:52
whitequarkhm, nevermind, I can just remove that23:57
whitequarkdoesn't seem to have any ill effect23:57
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