#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2016-05-06

wpwraklimpkin: yes, i'm here :)00:52
limpkinSeems we're not in the same time zone then aha :)04:50
DocScrutinizer05[2016-05-06 Fri 02:55:13] <tmyklebu_> google chrome *actually is* malware.  flash is just shitty.05:06
DocScrutinizer05[2016-05-06 Fri 02:55:50] <tmyklebu_> they advertise that it sends your keystrokes to the mothership and all.05:06
DocScrutinizer05[2016-05-06 Fri 03:00:11] <gci_admin> There is also Vivaldi browser, based on Chromium but without the spying. Or so I have heard.05:09
arossdotmehmm yea the sure mono 300w amp board is odd that they say its 300w into 2ohm when the amp sound be able to do mono 300w 4ohm.... hmm07:44
arossdotmesound=should07:44
arossdotmelooking at the datasheet again it seams the TI IC in the sure 300w board can only do 130w 1%THD into 4ohm in PBLT setup. so i guess its not as capable as i thought it was but the ICs bigger brother is :D tas563008:09
arossdotmeso ill get the yj tas5630 board unless i get the IRS one... :/08:09
DocScrutinizer05sorry for OT: 10.40.66.150   what an IP is this?16:44
DocScrutinizer05it's showing up in my 192.168.4.1/24 network16:44
DocScrutinizer05NFC how it made it there16:45
DocScrutinizer05http://wstaw.org/m/2016/05/06/plasma-desktopHB2219.png16:46
DocScrutinizer05could this be a damn brainfscked windows7 PC that has a *hostname* like that?16:47
DocScrutinizer05MEH!!!  10.0.0.0 10.255.255.255 Class A network 10.x.x.x 10/8 Class A private address block.16:49
DocScrutinizer05now I wish I had a log of my DHCP leases... Well I have but that definitely wasn't a lease16:51
DocScrutinizer05could somebody please lock up in same room Putin and Erdogan plus 3 similar bigmouthed fools to help him against Putin, and only let out one party after the other deceased?18:08
DocScrutinizer05or lose the key and forget about it18:09
DocScrutinizer05ooh and before I forget: Turkey out of NATO, *subito*18:10
DocScrutinizer05maybe take Hungary with you18:10
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: what if they unite18:13
whitequarki won't take the chance18:14
DocScrutinizer05((lock up in same room)) preferably at some unknown random location in Syria18:14
DocScrutinizer05somewhere in the territories that are not controlled by gvmt troops18:15
DocScrutinizer05and thus prone to random bombing18:15
wpwraklimpkin: best to just say what you have to say, then pick up the response the next time you're around. and eventually, convergence may occur :)18:19
limpkinAha :)18:20
DocScrutinizer05you seen this? (well that's what German TV news report, so take with a grain of salt) Turkish police stops a truck convoy to Syria or similar. Erdogan declared this is humanitarian help. Reproters publsih internal documents that say opposite, and show photos of cargo of grenades in that convoy. Reporters get sentenced 5 years for treason18:20
limpkinRecently discovered your offline password keeper project, looked quite neat18:20
limpkinWhat's the current status?18:21
DocScrutinizer05in front of court some random asshole shoots at the reporter18:22
DocScrutinizer05limpkin: anelok is the name18:23
limpkinThanks, I had forgotten18:23
DocScrutinizer05np :-)18:23
DocScrutinizer05(Turkey) and that same Erdogan think he can extort EU to cancel visa requirements for turkish18:27
DocScrutinizer05this idiot hasn't understood yet that he couldn't do us a greater favor than overbidding his hand18:28
DocScrutinizer05merkel gone, Turkey refugee treaty void, EU forced to find some *decent* honest solution for the whole mess, Turkey never member of EU and no visa-free immigration either18:31
DocScrutinizer05ohwell you may dream, no?18:31
whitequarkhow do you select fuses?18:32
whitequarki have a slow-blow fuse guarding a compressor that normally draws 4A18:33
DocScrutinizer05by smell? ;-D18:33
whitequarkT type 5A18:33
whitequarkit blows after a few dozen cycles, hot to touch18:33
whitequarkfor this compressor http://www.refair.fi/images/technical/Cubigel/GP12TG.pdf18:33
DocScrutinizer05hmm, you prolly should use a 10A18:33
DocScrutinizer05industrial-T18:34
whitequarkhow fast are F and T?18:34
whitequarkwait18:34
whitequarkwaaaait18:34
DocScrutinizer05Locked rotor current (A)  16.018:35
DocScrutinizer05T is a very fuzzy spec18:35
DocScrutinizer05also I see "200V"18:35
whitequarkhm18:36
whitequark220V actually18:36
whitequarkjust designed for shitty rural conditions i guess?18:36
DocScrutinizer05WTF is >> Approximate Power (CV)  3/8 <<  CheVaux?18:36
whitequarkhorsepower18:37
DocScrutinizer05>> Voltage/Frequency (V/Hz)  200V 50Hz<<18:37
DocScrutinizer05so three eight-ths--thts of a one horsepower?18:38
DocScrutinizer05this datashit is terrible18:38
DocScrutinizer05though >> Voltage range (V)  170-242<<18:39
whitequarkyes18:39
DocScrutinizer05~242/17018:41
DocScrutinizer05 /msg apt die18:41
DocScrutinizer05~(242/170)**218:44
infobot2.02643598615918:44
DocScrutinizer05~4*(240/200)18:45
infobot4.818:45
DocScrutinizer05here you are with your 5A fuse ;-)18:46
DocScrutinizer05add the 16A startup burst to this, N times, and the fuse is gone18:46
DocScrutinizer05also see >>ELECTRICAL COMPONENTS<<18:48
DocScrutinizer05plus you don't even know what's the real VA during startup incl start capacitor18:50
whitequarkyes that's why i took a slow blow fuse18:51
DocScrutinizer05generally I'd use a 10A T for compressors any time18:51
whitequarkceramic or glass?18:51
whitequarkmore generally, not just for this case18:51
DocScrutinizer05err which type of fuse?18:52
whitequarkyeah18:52
DocScrutinizer05not yeah, which type?18:52
DocScrutinizer05a 5*20mm?18:52
whitequarkyes18:52
DocScrutinizer05ohmy18:52
whitequarkceramic is cheaper and has higher breaking capacity18:53
whitequarkbut I guess can't be viewed?18:53
whitequarkobserved18:53
DocScrutinizer05prolly hard to find a 5*20 for this usecase18:53
whitequarkhuh? plenty of them18:53
whitequarkhttp://hken.rs-online.com/web/p/cartridge-fuses/5371004/ http://hken.rs-online.com/web/p/cartridge-fuses/0563592/18:53
DocScrutinizer05my completely uneducated notiuon is: those fuses are not made to withstand this sort of load18:54
whitequarkhow so?18:54
DocScrutinizer05too small, will get terribly hot18:54
DocScrutinizer05and particularly too fast18:55
DocScrutinizer05because of lack of thermal capacity18:56
whitequarkthe power entry module I use is rated at 10A as well... 18:57
whitequarkhttp://www.mouser.hk/ProductDetail/Bulgin/BZH01-Z0000-02/?qs=TobE%2fWCMdlw%252bQ2v7k%2fNv5w%3d%3d18:57
DocScrutinizer05T here means maybe a few 100ms18:57
whitequarkthat should be adequate for motor startup18:57
DocScrutinizer05no, isn't18:57
DocScrutinizer05not really18:57
DocScrutinizer05might be >1s18:57
DocScrutinizer05anyway the startup bursts are >10A most probably and thus age the fuse18:59
DocScrutinizer05eventually it will just give up18:59
DocScrutinizer05use a 16A if you can get. The device is supposed to have a built in protector circuit anyway19:00
DocScrutinizer05see !OVERLOAD"19:00
DocScrutinizer05s/!/"/19:00
whitequarkyes, it does19:00
whitequarkthe fuse is to catch failures elsehwere19:01
whitequarkit also has a pump, a fan, a control box...19:01
DocScrutinizer05Protector  MRT20APK         Current (A)  13.2  19:01
whitequarkalso I would rather catch a failure early than wait 5+ minutes until the protector trips19:01
DocScrutinizer05your fuse is supposed to not blow before the protector engages19:02
whitequarkwhy?19:02
whitequarkalso, hm19:02
DocScrutinizer05because you don't want to change it every other day?19:02
whitequarkthat section is rather confusing19:02
whitequarkthe "protector" is a bimetallic plate that measures the temperature of the compressor casing19:03
DocScrutinizer05it also is a heater in itself19:03
whitequarkoh right19:03
DocScrutinizer05see the resistor in the circuit diagram symbol19:03
DocScrutinizer05so it's basically a fuse19:04
DocScrutinizer05and it's set up in a way so it only triggers when the compressor suffers overload for whatever reasons. AIUI it does so at nominally 13.2A19:05
whitequarkwell, there are two actions19:05
whitequarkit also watches for overheat of compressor without overcurrent19:05
whitequarkif there is no cooling of freon then the compressor can pump but get hotter and hotter19:05
whitequarke.g. if the fan died19:05
DocScrutinizer05yes, Iknow those fridge compressor circuits19:05
DocScrutinizer05most usual overheating reason is repeated starts19:06
whitequarkhmmm19:07
DocScrutinizer05those compressors are not made to get started more than once every 5 minutes19:07
whitequarkthis chiller i designed doesn't appear to suffer much from repeated starts, i tried running it with hysteresis of 1°C19:07
whitequarkand it doesn't even get hot if the duty cycle is not high19:08
DocScrutinizer05I just can report what I've seen in hundreds of fridges19:08
whitequarkyeah, I believe you about fridges, I've read that too19:08
whitequarkI am wondering what is the exact difference19:08
DocScrutinizer05I've seen it19:08
whitequarkit's not the compressor itself but rather something else about the freon circuit, I think19:09
whitequarkhang on19:09
whitequarkI remember now what I read about repeated starts, the core of the issue was not repeated start itself, rather repeated start was a symptom19:09
DocScrutinizer05try to start your fridge 4 times in one minute, it will go into chillout mode19:09
whitequarkoverheat, protector trips, cools down, turns on, overheat...19:10
whitequarkthen at some point it fails because it's not made to be that hot that long19:10
whitequarkre chillout mode: isn't that just the PTC starter?19:10
DocScrutinizer05seen the effect I mentioned, a several dozen times19:11
DocScrutinizer05no, that's the overload protection afaik19:11
whitequarkso let's try this, i'll start this thing 20 times in 1.5 minutes19:11
whitequarkis that enough?19:11
whitequarki'm certain enough that repeated starts themselves aren't the issue that i don't worry about this killing my chiller19:12
DocScrutinizer05enough for your 5A fuse? ;-) for sure19:12
whitequarkyeah, with some higher rated fuse.19:12
DocScrutinizer05look, a fuse with 10A is sort of warranted to stay intact with 10A, but the other characteristics vary massively with type of fuse. A simple household fuse 10A T may survive 20A for a 15 minutes19:14
DocScrutinizer05a 20*5mm will not survive for one minute19:14
DocScrutinizer05prolly not for 10s19:16
whitequarkok so I started it about 50 times as fast as it would run, running it less than for 1s every time19:16
whitequarkactually the 5A fuse survived it all19:16
whitequarkthis is sand-filled ceramic so I think it has a higher effective capacity because of all the sand dissipating the heat19:16
DocScrutinizer05get datasheets if you want to know for sure19:17
whitequarkand no the compressor is barely warm19:17
DocScrutinizer05*shrug*19:18
DocScrutinizer05I got no more experienced anecdotes to contribute19:18
whitequarkohhhh http://docs-asia.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/135f/0900766b8135f371.pdf19:19
whitequarkopening time 60 Minutes minimum19:19
whitequarkfor 150%19:19
whitequarkyea looks like these ceramic cartridge fuses can withstand a lot of abuse before they blow19:20
whitequarki'll go with 10A T19:20
DocScrutinizer05hmm?19:20
DocScrutinizer05seems like the 1AT blows in 0.3s with 3A19:21
whitequarkywah19:23
DocScrutinizer05now take your compressor that's possibly drawing 16A during startup, and a 5AT fuse19:23
DocScrutinizer05that's exactly what I meant19:23
whitequark.75s min 80s max19:23
DocScrutinizer05T is not always like T19:23
whitequarkbut that's for continuous 10A19:23
whitequarker 5A19:23
whitequarker 16A over 5A fuse19:23
DocScrutinizer05I looked at the diagram19:27
DocScrutinizer05you should go for a 15AT19:27
DocScrutinizer05good for short protection, leave the rest to the OVERLOAD protector component19:28
DocScrutinizer05when you have other stuff as well which you want to protect, you rather should use a dedicated fuse for that other stuff19:29
DocScrutinizer05your 50 starts test is maybe not very relevant since the fuse didn't even heat up from nominal current19:31
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: a user asked about anelok19:32
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: >>.75s min 80s max 16A over 5A fuse<< yep, maybe, but not repeatedly, this is strictly oneshot19:41
DocScrutinizer05fuse will age and wear out19:41
DocScrutinizer05it stores up each overcurrent19:41
DocScrutinizer05eventually it breaks19:41
DocScrutinizer05particularly those flimsy 20*5 ones19:42
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: yes hence i go for 10AT19:48
DocScrutinizer05might work, buit why not go for 16A ?19:49
whitequarkwhere it's *supposed* to withstand that 16A overshoot19:49
whitequarkbecause the power entry module is rated for 10A max19:49
whitequarkI don't like the idea of using a 16AT fuse in something rated for 10A19:49
DocScrutinizer05what is this power entry module?19:49
whitequarkhttp://www.mouser.hk/ProductDetail/Bulgin/BZH01-Z0000-02/?qs=TobE%2fWCMdlw%252bQ2v7k%2fNv5w%3d%3d19:50
whitequarkhttp://www.mouser.com/ds/2/57/Polysnap-2010-4034.pdf19:50
DocScrutinizer05hmm ok, makes sense19:51
DocScrutinizer05whether it makes sense to use a 10A rated power module for a compressor rated 13.2A overcurrent protection, is another question19:53
DocScrutinizer05can't you use a larger fuse, like 10*30mm or whatever?19:54
DocScrutinizer05prolly integrated into the power module, eh?19:54
whitequarkyep19:54
whitequarkthat was like half the point19:54
DocScrutinizer05ideally use a softstart circuit19:54
DocScrutinizer05I designed a really oldschool "russian design" softstart for a cinema projector 1600W Xenon transformer/rectifier: relay coil in parallel to the consumer (transformer), a 20 Ohm series resistor that gets shorted by the relay contact19:57
DocScrutinizer05the friggin transforme was a quarter ton19:57
DocScrutinizer05literally19:58
whitequark250kg for 1600W?19:58
whitequarkthat seems super inefficient19:58
DocScrutinizer05yep19:58
DocScrutinizer05it had a monster DC choke for smoothing the current19:58
DocScrutinizer05no significan capacitors19:59
whitequarkseems like stupid wasteful design19:59
DocScrutinizer05plus the whole thing was adjustable19:59
whitequarkoh like a variac?19:59
DocScrutinizer05Selen rectifiers19:59
DocScrutinizer05made in the 1930s20:00
DocScrutinizer05yes20:00
whitequarkoh 1930s that explains it20:00
DocScrutinizer05nah, nowadays that's a 5kg SPSU20:00
DocScrutinizer05that thing was a tank20:01
DocScrutinizer05300kg20:01
DocScrutinizer0590*60*50cm20:02
DocScrutinizer05this sort of technical level: http://www.fernsehmuseum.info/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads%2Fpics%2FVorfuehrraum-ErnemannX-werkfoto.jpg&width=1280m&height=1024m&bodyTag=%3Cbody%20style%3D%22margin%3A0%3B%20background%3A%23fff%3B%22%3E&wrap=%3Ca%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B%22%3E%20%7C%20%3C%2Fa%3E&md5=0bed2a1c6083e190964f0523255f09bf20:04
eintopfhi20:04
DocScrutinizer05http://www.fernsehmuseum.info/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads%2Fpics%2FVorfuehrraum-ErnemannX-4kanal-uniphon-verstarker.jpg&width=1280m&height=1024m&bodyTag=%3Cbody%20style%3D%22margin%3A0%3B%20background%3A%23fff%3B%22%3E&wrap=%3Ca%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B%22%3E%20%7C%20%3C%2Fa%3E&md5=51ebfe827bcfdb142580e869fcd8db9c  you see the black lamp current adjustment knobleft side at bottom end of the projector, it 20:07
DocScrutinizer05adjusted the DC current that controlled the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transductor20:07
whitequarkeven without switchng you don't need that much20:08
DocScrutinizer05hi eintopf20:08
whitequarkhah, a magnetic amplifier20:09
whitequarkthat's truly ancient tech20:09
DocScrutinizer05this was the lamp: http://www.kinobauer.de/anleitungen/BL9X_manual.pdf  I doubt I could find docs for the transformer/rectifier/regulator20:15
DocScrutinizer05I guess the xenon was even just 800W, no 160020:16
DocScrutinizer0540..70A * ~25V20:18
wpwraklimpkin: it's very slowly crawling forward. i now have the next hw design mostly finished (still needs a bit more work on CAD, and then the layout)20:19
limpkingreat! last time i tried to access the website it was offline or had some problems though20:20
limpkinare you alone working on it?20:21
wpwraklimpkin: with all that, i think it's time to try to a crowdfunding campaign. that projects needs proper funding to be able to speed up, so that'll be critical.20:21
wpwrakoh, right ... lemme put it back into service ... it'll spit out a complaint about hte certificate but it'll work20:21
limpkinsending you a pm20:21
wpwrakso far i do most of the work, yes. some biz side discussions with dave ball (but we haven't created a company just yet), discussions on the qi-hw list with various members, and a few people have contributed a bit of code, but i'd say it's something like 98% me so far. that will have to change, too :)20:24
limpkincongrats20:25
DocScrutinizer05krhrhr, good luck with changing that20:26
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: http://www.osram.com/appsinfo/pdc/pdf.do?cid=GPS01_1028548&mpid=ZMP_1200637&vid=PP_EUROPE_Europe_eCat&lid=EN20:26
whitequarkhuh still mfgd?20:27
DocScrutinizer05yep20:28
DocScrutinizer05I guess for several 100 bucks per lamp they will continue to do so until some regulations about radioactive materials forbid20:29
DocScrutinizer05(the wolfram electrodes are doted with some radioactive stuff to facilitate igniting the arc)20:29
whitequarkthoriated?20:30
whitequarkthorium is an alpha emitter so that's actually ok20:30
whitequarkwelding electrodes made from thoriated tungsten are not just still sold, in HK I couldn'd find any other ones (eg lanthaated)20:31
whitequarkand that's ok as long as you don't make them into fine dust20:31
whitequarkthe problem with welding electrodes is that before welding, you are supposed to grind them, and wel...20:31
whitequarkand that's pretty stupid too because all modern TIG comes with HF starter, don't need no radioactivity for that20:32
whitequarkI think thorium in these welding electrodes was more for its refractory properties than arc starting as well20:32
DocScrutinizer05dunno20:33
DocScrutinizer05it was quite impressive which protective wear you needed to handle those lamps. changing them you looked like a bomb technician20:35
DocScrutinizer05because of the gas pressure20:35
DocScrutinizer05whe a lamp went *boom* when hot, it regularly killed the reflector made of 1cm thick glas which was like 20cm away from the lamp20:36
whitequarkwell it pretty much is a bomb20:38
DocScrutinizer05damn, ding doesn't know "Quarzglass"20:38
DocScrutinizer05yeah, even when cold it seems that fused quartz under 3 atmospheres pressure is not exactly healthy20:39
whitequarkfused quartz is a pretty good material to work with. very low coeff of expansion, and rather resistant overall20:39
whitequarkbut as any other glass it'll fragment20:39
DocScrutinizer05yeah, but when it breaks...20:40
DocScrutinizer05exactly20:40
whitequarki had an idea for a fused quartz dinner set20:40
DocScrutinizer05and when hot those lamps have iir 20 or 30 Atm pressure20:40
whitequarkinstead of dishwashing run it through an oxypropane flame20:41
DocScrutinizer05hehe20:41
DocScrutinizer05nice idea20:41
whitequarkhave you *seen* how much off the shelf fused quartz costs?20:41
whitequarkand custom is going to run a small fortune20:41
DocScrutinizer05sure20:42
whitequarki actually bought a teacup (actually crucible used as a teacup) from fused quartz20:42
whitequark100ml $60 I think20:42
DocScrutinizer05:nod:20:42
DocScrutinizer05sounds about right20:42
whitequarkmight still consider doing it if i find a vendor, hehe20:42
whitequarkbut that sounds like custom mold... $$$ even in china20:42
DocScrutinizer05the problem will be: it's too fragile20:42
whitequarkit's not very fragile20:43
whitequarkI dropped it a bunch of times and I'm 80% sure regular glass would break before that20:43
DocScrutinizer05let it drop and then tell me again ;-)20:43
DocScrutinizer05ooh?20:43
whitequarklike I dropped it from ~50cm into the metal sink and it actually *bounced*20:43
DocScrutinizer05wow20:43
whitequarkwould've defnitely shattered if the sink was ceramic20:45
whitequarkstone even?20:45
DocScrutinizer05yeah, I think it's quite strong but zilch elastic20:45
whitequarkidea: mill a dinner set from a silicon monocrystal20:46
DocScrutinizer05uiuiuiiiuiiiiuiiii20:46
whitequarksame problem really, extremely strong but cannot absorb impact energy20:47
DocScrutinizer05I had the useless endpieces of a silicon monocrystal20:47
whitequarkand it has to go somewhere20:47
whitequarkoooh20:47
whitequarkI actually hope to have a czochralski setup in maybe a year20:48
DocScrutinizer05maybe 3cm diameter on the cut side20:48
whitequarkit *could* be used to grow Si although thats not what i need it for20:48
DocScrutinizer05wtf wrong with apt?20:48
DocScrutinizer05~die20:48
whitequarkbut only up to 3-5cm in total dia, which means I'm not getting that dinner set :D20:48
DocScrutinizer05:-)20:49
whitequarkit's actually surprisingly simple to make20:50
whitequarkand not even that expensive, just 3-4k for the diameter above20:50
whitequark.... if you know the right shop in russia, of course20:50
DocScrutinizer05hmm, looks like it's not *that* trivial to build20:52
whitequarkit's not trivial or even very simple at all, it's just surprisingly simple compared to *expectations*20:53
whitequarkthat is i have not really considered it manageable for 1 person with a modest salary but it is20:53
DocScrutinizer05hmm, silicon melting point 1400°C, OK20:55
DocScrutinizer05not as bad as I thought20:56
whitequarkapart from that I'm getting a furnace capable of 1800°C. I want to play with brazing in inert atmosphere, custom ceramics, stuff like that20:56
DocScrutinizer05whatever that means: http://scidre.de/index.php?id=8120:56
whitequarkand I need it anyway to prepare the slug20:56
whitequarkthe batch?20:57
whitequarkyeah20:57
whitequarkwow, that one is seriously impressive20:58
whitequarkI don't want to know how much it costs20:58
whitequarknevermind that it doesn't really exist...20:58
--- Sat May 7 201600:00

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