#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2015-07-28

--- Tue Jul 28 201500:00
wpwrakxiangfu: heya ! question: you still have those anelok boards you've made, right ?05:26
xiangfuanelok is on my TODO list and Desk.05:33
wpwrakhehe, great ! :) i was thinking that the ccc-camp may be a place with some potential for attracting developers, and some may have use for one of these board05:37
wpwrakif you could send the boards you don't need for yourself to someone who can bring them to the camp, i could then give boards to any worthy developers i may meet there05:40
wpwrakand if any are left, i could send them to dave ball in the UK who could then take care of further shipments05:41
wpwrakdoes that sounds good ? if yes, then i'll ask around if i can find someone in europe who goes to the camp and who would be willing to receive them05:42
Action: DocScrutinizer05 looks around, then hides ;-P06:59
xiangfuwpwrak: sounds good.07:42
xiangfuwpwrak: Yes. 07:43
xiangfuI have three right now 07:46
wpwrakthree that you can send or three in total, including the ones you use yourself ?07:47
xiangfuI have four in total. 07:47
xiangfuthree I can send out.07:47
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: could we try giving one a Galden sauna on camp? ;-)07:48
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: still hiding ? you would make an ideal candidate :) 1) you already received (a) shipment(s) from xiangfu, 2) you're coming to the camp, and 3) it's rather unlikely that we won't run into each other there :)07:48
wpwrak(galden) sounds destructive07:48
DocScrutinizer05hard to argue :-)07:48
DocScrutinizer05nah, *constructive* literally, for a new one07:49
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: so is it okay if xiangfu sends them to you ?07:49
wpwrakgreat, thanks !07:50
DocScrutinizer05though I definitely would prefer them getting sent by normal letter rather than that customs stuff07:50
wpwrakxiangfu: we have our importer ;-) i guess the shipping is fairly quick, isn't it ?07:50
xiangfuI can sent it right now. :)07:51
xiangfuby DHL.07:51
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: normal letters go through customs, too. now that everyone knows your EORI, things may actually be smoother now07:51
DocScrutinizer05no, not much07:51
DocScrutinizer05atually this one will be a nightmare since I can't prove any value, no matter how07:52
wpwrakcan't they do the formalities directly now ?07:52
DocScrutinizer05when I ordered stuff like bare N900 PCB they arrived in a fairly normal letter, without any customs involved07:53
wpwrak"prototype" :) they must have some way to handle self-made things. e.g., what if your grandmother sends you self-knitted socks ?07:53
DocScrutinizer05alas such letters take up to two months07:54
wpwrakwell, maybe taping them on a PCB and then using a padded envelope may work. they's a bit fragile with OLED and FPC hanging off the PCB07:54
wpwrakmeh. s/they's/they're/07:56
DocScrutinizer05I think up to 25 Eur are free of charge re customs07:56
DocScrutinizer05alas I never checked details of such parcels I found in my letterbox or my neighbors received for me07:57
DocScrutinizer05one thing's for sure: add my EORY and it will be DHL handling it the commercial way with customs and charging me the nominal fee07:58
wpwrakEUR 22: http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Sendungen-mit-geringem-Wert/sendungen-mit-geringem-wert_node.html08:02
DocScrutinizer05probably sending them the most usual way and filing papers for a 3 pcs foobar a 4.99EUR = 14.97 total  will work best08:02
DocScrutinizer05>>Entscheidend ist, welcher Betrag tatsächlich gezahlt wurde, um die Ware zu erhalten. <<08:05
DocScrutinizer05it's pretty hard to show an invoice / payment of zilch EUR08:05
DocScrutinizer05small packages with correctly filed papers stating a value of 5, 10 or 15 EUR usually work best08:07
DocScrutinizer05ideally "payment after shipping"08:08
DocScrutinizer05and pack them in a way so customs may open them ans see them in a bag without messing with, and breaking them08:10
DocScrutinizer05any standard goods type declaration will do, the type used for dunno electronic components or whatever08:12
wpwrak3*1.98 may be a bit on the low side for a circuit with an display clearly hanging off it08:13
DocScrutinizer05they have no damn clue08:14
DocScrutinizer05make it 5.89 then08:15
DocScrutinizer05of course the customs never will believe somebody sends stuff for a total cost of 16 bucks, when the DHL shipping alone is known to cost 2008:20
whitequarkshipping cost is not included in customs value08:21
DocScrutinizer05it is08:21
DocScrutinizer05and it's highly unlikely that you buy a 15 EUR value of goods shipped in a parcel that costs 2508:22
whitequarkummm, no it's not08:22
wpwrakseems that it depends in this case: if you're billed for the shipping, shipping value is included. else, not08:22
whitequarke.g. fedex: http://www.canadacustomer.fedex.com/ca_english/customsguide/declaredvalue.html08:22
DocScrutinizer05who cares about canada?08:22
wpwrak(unlikely) e.g., letters are often sent by courier. the "commercial value" of a few sheets of paper tends to be pretty low ;-)08:23
whitequarkso in germany, it is included08:23
whitequarkThe value to declare for customs purposes is the price paid or payable for the goods, including any selling commissions, assists, royalties, packing and proceeds. It does not include freight and insurance charges.08:23
DocScrutinizer05I know08:24
whitequarkI thought it would be uniform. silly, I guess08:24
whitequarkeither way, I ship shit that costs less than delivery cost all the time08:24
DocScrutinizer05and the customs get pissed when you tell them you paid 15 bucks for the parcel and they know for good that fedex or DHL charged sender a 20 for the shipping08:24
whitequarkusually from auctions08:24
whitequarkdon't really have a choice there unless i want seller to combine08:25
whitequarkand have something i want it to be combined with08:25
whitequarkwhich is not usually the case08:25
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: that's irrelevant08:25
DocScrutinizer05even wehn the goods are 0.68 the seller will not charge me 0.68 but 0.68 plus shipping08:26
whitequarkohh right08:26
whitequarksince it's included.08:26
DocScrutinizer05and for customs that's 20.68 then08:26
whitequarkyeah you're right08:26
DocScrutinizer05and when I try to tell them I paid less than seller paid for parcel, they will tell me to go fuck myself08:27
wpwrakbut these are gifts from a friend. not stuff bought from a .cn shop. do your friends normally charge you for shipping when they send you gifts ? :)08:28
DocScrutinizer05that's where stuff gets *really* nasty08:28
wpwrakit may be difficult to explain, yes :)08:29
DocScrutinizer05it's difficult to *prove*08:29
DocScrutinizer05and they see this sort of fraud 50000 times a day08:29
whitequarkour customs just don't give a fuck unless it's over $2k or so08:30
whitequarkonce it's over $2k though, you will be told to get fucked in so many ways08:31
whitequarkas I have recently discovered, an US org cannot express ship to a RU citizen in any circumstances whatsoever08:31
whitequarkthe law does not define when that is permitted.08:31
DocScrutinizer05here it's fine as long as it's plausible and no pills or drugs, and <22EUR08:32
whitequarkand that's not even $2k, a $100 devboard08:32
whitequarkinterestingly, the exact same thing sent using *registerd* post doesn't raise a brow08:32
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I think we're in a pinch with either DHL and fast delivery but delay at customs, or "normal surface deliver mail" (aka letter) which will not even see customs but will take 4 to 12 weeks08:34
wpwrakair mail ?08:34
DocScrutinizer05well, "china post ordinary small packet plus" Estimated delivery 15-34days08:36
whitequarkthat's pretty much a lottery08:36
whitequarksometimes arrives in 10, sometimes in 6008:36
wpwrakdoesn't the EUR 22 rule apply to DHL, too ?08:36
DocScrutinizer05incl shipping08:37
wpwrakthe page i found suggests that this depends on whether the pro forma invoice includes shipping or not08:37
DocScrutinizer05no idea how much they charge for a parcel like that. Probably enough so they per default pipe everything through customs08:38
wpwrakfor courier, shipping ought to be > EUR 2208:38
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I already elaborated in epic length that customs are not idiots08:38
DocScrutinizer05when they see a DHL parcel they know what's the shipping cost. And they generally won't accept total value of parcel being lower than that08:39
wpwrakso if www.zoll.de says that it depends on the invoice, you're saying they're lying ?08:39
DocScrutinizer05I'm fed up08:40
DocScrutinizer05I say they tell me you are lying08:41
DocScrutinizer05writing an invoice is cheap, and done for fraud purposes a 50000 times a day08:41
wpwrakme ?08:41
DocScrutinizer05yes, you, when you wrote the invoice08:42
wpwrakwell, in argentina they require a sworn declaration from the recipient. so they have a statement from someone they can hurt08:43
DocScrutinizer05they might have no clue about electronics, but they know their business and trade shit08:43
wpwrakyes, but in this case, there's actually nobody trying to cheat08:43
DocScrutinizer05yeah, and you think I visit a lawyer to get that paper? sorry, won't happen08:44
wpwraknaw, you'd make that declaration at customs08:44
DocScrutinizer05no I won't. they want to see papers08:45
wpwrakwell, at least here it works like this. you make it online, they calculate the import fees, you pay them, then hope for the best08:45
DocScrutinizer05do waht you likwe. I tell you I won't try to bring a fake invoice to prove how much I paid08:45
wpwrakwell, never mind. i'll see if i can find someone else.08:45
DocScrutinizer05do you think somebody else can cheat customs?08:46
DocScrutinizer05good luck08:46
wpwraknobody is trying to cheat customs here ...08:46
wpwrakjust the standard procedure with pro forma invoice (since it's not an actual sale)08:47
DocScrutinizer05last parcel from xiangfu was fun to pick up at customs since I could show those guys a similar device offered on ebay, for a 60 bucks08:49
DocScrutinizer05or was that the single N900 some other guy sent to me08:50
wpwrakyes, that helps of course08:50
DocScrutinizer05no, this was _the last resort_08:51
DocScrutinizer05since I couldn't show an order or a paypal/wiretransfer payment to prove the value08:51
wpwrakand what value did they suggest to use ?08:53
DocScrutinizer05for the speakers they completely ignored the fake invoice 08:53
wpwrakwell, they can do that :)08:54
DocScrutinizer05luckily I had a payment to show them, and a correspondence08:54
DocScrutinizer05and it was hard enough to convince them to accept those "documents"08:54
DocScrutinizer05just telling you when you write an invoice, don't forget to add realistic shipping cost, and decalre the goods accordingly so customs has no problem finding the drawer for that class of goods08:56
DocScrutinizer05then when it's < 22 EUR we might be lucky08:57
DocScrutinizer05maybe "prototypes for exhibition, advertising item free of charge" may actually fly, I dunno08:58
DocScrutinizer05"shipping: paid by sender"08:59
DocScrutinizer05and aiui there's even an option where sender pays all customs and taxes due09:01
DocScrutinizer05this arrives flawlessly, at least when e.g. Nokia ships that stuff09:01
DocScrutinizer05or Openmoko09:01
wpwrakjust to be clear: this is what they look like: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/anelok/tmp/Anelok-front.jpg09:01
DocScrutinizer05that's highly irrelevant09:02
wpwraknot much risk of confusing them with some standard mass market product09:02
DocScrutinizer05there are no special taxes for mass market products09:03
whitequarkcan't you just send them as "samples"? these are sometimes exempt from duty09:04
DocScrutinizer05"free samples" or "prototypes" or "for exhibition" or whatever09:05
DocScrutinizer05it's only relevant what receiver actually paid 09:05
DocScrutinizer05and if I could prove that so they believe it09:06
DocScrutinizer05I *think* when they are told you didn't pay since it's a (commercial) give-away, they can guess the value09:09
wpwrakcareful with "samples": http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Pruefungs-und-Analysezwecke/pruefungs-und-analysezwecke_node.html09:10
DocScrutinizer05>>Ausgeschlossen von der Befreiung sind Waren in den Fällen, in denen die vorgesehenen Prüfungsmaßnahmen vordergründig zu Zwecken der Absatzförderung (z.B. Werbung) durchgeführt werden, z.B. um den Umsatz für ein bereits im Handel befindliches Erzeugnis durch deren Erprobung zu verbessern. Hier kommt evtl. eine Zollbefreiung nach den Bestimmungen für Warenmuster und Warenproben in Betracht.<<09:14
wpwrakbut as long as you can avoid that trap, there is http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Absatzfoerderung/Warenmuster-und-proben/warenmuster-und-proben_node.html09:15
wpwrakbut in any case, the simplest approach seems to be to declare them as gifts and send them to a private address: http://www.zoll.de/DE/Privatpersonen/Post-Internet/Sendungen-aus-einem-Nicht-EU-Staat/Zoll-und-Steuern/Geschenksendungen/geschenksendungen_node.html09:15
DocScrutinizer05that's your regulation: http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Absatzfoerderung/Warenmuster-und-proben/warenmuster-und-proben_node.html09:16
wpwraknote "unterliegen keinen Zollförmlichkeiten"09:16
wpwrakall the rest is more complex. e.g., samples: "elektronischen oder schriftlichen Zollanmeldung"09:16
DocScrutinizer05yeah, so what I said: *please* don't give my EORI!09:17
DocScrutinizer05you regularly don't write EORI on a private gift09:17
wpwrakEORI would be the UG. yes, that would be bad then09:17
DocScrutinizer05and probably you want to write the addr sticker by hand then09:18
DocScrutinizer05and generally don't use "commercial" packaging09:19
DocScrutinizer05both sender and receiver must be natural private  persons09:24
DocScrutinizer05a letter wouldn't hurt "Hi Joerg, those are the ANELOKs for Werner's welcome gift that I made for him" or sth like that09:26
DocScrutinizer05that's a pretty easily proofable story09:27
DocScrutinizer05I can even show off your flight ticket09:28
--- Wed Jul 29 201500:00

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