#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2015-02-13

arossdotmewheres gnutoo?02:28
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: speaking of successful kickstartering, that's how the pros do it: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/elanlee/exploding-kittens07:49
xiangfuwpwrak: Hi13:56
xiangfuwpwrak: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Anelok#Boards13:56
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: Hello13:57
DocScrutinizer05xiangfu: hi!13:58
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: I bought 4 N900 phones.13:59
DocScrutinizer05:-D13:59
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: I think I will receive them in 2 or three days.13:59
DocScrutinizer05do those sellers offer more of them?14:00
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: Yes.14:00
DocScrutinizer05great! :-)14:00
xiangfusomeone have more then 500.14:00
xiangfumost of them have less them 100 devices.14:00
DocScrutinizer05yes14:00
DocScrutinizer05less than 100 is quite normal14:00
xiangfu(500 one): the price ~100USD.14:01
xiangfuthe four devices I have bought from 40USD to 120USD.14:02
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: I am not sure if I can send it to you before Chinese New Year. it is like all people stop working. I will let you know when I receive them.14:02
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: do you need me do anything on the device before I send it out?14:03
xiangfuI can disaccemble them. :)14:03
DocScrutinizer05please don't worry abut sending them to me quickly, rather evaluate if they are decent quality :-)14:03
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: ok14:03
DocScrutinizer05the price is "normal"14:03
DocScrutinizer05and expected14:04
DocScrutinizer05(~100USD)14:04
DocScrutinizer05we can handle that14:04
DocScrutinizer05:-D14:04
DocScrutinizer05great news indeed. Many many thanks!14:04
xiangfunope.14:05
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: just FYI: we own a small factory with a SMT line and some people there. 14:05
DocScrutinizer05good to know14:05
DocScrutinizer05maybe we could for example have those 500 disassembled by you before shipping them to us. would make sense since here we have no resources to do that job, unless I dedicate 4 weeks to it ;-)14:07
DocScrutinizer05of my time14:07
xiangfuDocScrutinizer05: Yes. that is what I though. we can disassembled them.14:08
DocScrutinizer05QA and disassemble14:08
xiangfuI will try that first in two days.14:08
xiangfu:)14:08
DocScrutinizer05I'll link you to the service manual14:08
DocScrutinizer05just for convenience14:08
xiangfuthanks14:09
DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=5698614:11
DocScrutinizer05L1_2 link works14:11
DocScrutinizer05L3_4 is a comprehensive technical ,amual about repair and all14:11
DocScrutinizer05manual14:11
Action: xiangfu downloading14:12
DocScrutinizer05irrelevant for you14:12
xiangfuwe don't need to disassemble them like the "EXPLODED VIEW". right?14:21
xiangfudo you need this: MEMORY_CARD_PCB, CAMERA_MOD_5MP, QWERTY DOME SHEET?14:22
wpwrakxiangfu: (wiki page) nice !14:46
wpwrakthe "combines binary" is something a bit exotic, though. not what people would normally use. the regular path is boot loader with swd and then, ever after loading the application with dfu14:48
DocScrutinizer05xiangfu: we might need the domesheets, though that's terrible mess to scavenge and re-use14:53
DocScrutinizer05we prolly don't need the 5MP cam module, we are using a different variant14:53
DocScrutinizer05memory-card-pcb is a immanent part of main PCB14:54
DocScrutinizer05connected to main PCB by a embedded inner layer of flex PCB14:54
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/platine_01.jpeg14:55
DocScrutinizer05xianfu: (hope you read chanlog) we don't need complete display half disassembled, actually we'd prefer to have it "pre-"assembled to simply connect it to the main PCB15:59
DocScrutinizer05xianfu: actually in Nokia_N900_RX-51_Service_Manual_L1L2_v1_0.pdf please stop disassembling with photo #15, #1616:03
DocScrutinizer05we need QA on the complete display half: scratch free, display OK (no dead pixels), front camera and indicator RGB LED and IR proximity sensor working, earpiece working16:05
DocScrutinizer05test shall be done against a known-good main PCB16:05
Action: whitequark got a tig welder18:39
whitequarksoon, custom vacuum gear18:39
kyaka what?18:40
whitequarkwelder that uses a tungsten electrode in inert gas (argon)18:40
whitequarkyou need that for stainless18:40
whitequarkand most vacuum stuff is made from 316L18:40
kyakoh damn.. i only wonder how you get all this stuff with the current rate exchange :)18:42
whitequarkI'm paid in USD :p18:42
kyakvery clever :)18:42
whitequarkthe welder cost 7000 RUB (some discount). mask, 2000 RUB. 9th torch, 3000 RUB18:43
whitequarkthe biggest issue was finding 316L filler rods in qty of less than 5kg. 5kg of those cost like a whole new welder18:43
whitequarkargon is insanely cheap. 300 RUB ($5 for everyone else) for a 10L cylinder18:44
whitequarkI'm told it costs at least an order of magnitude more overseas18:44
kyakhad to google some of the stuff.. you couldn't get 316L is russia?18:44
whitequarkI could easily get them in 5kg boxes18:45
whitequarkit took two days to find a local place that sells you them one by one18:45
whitequarksame for TIG torch accessories, really, but the rods are really fucking expensive18:45
whitequarknow the last part I need is some source material, which proves most problematic of it all18:46
whitequarkno one wants to sell someone a 20x20cm square of 31618:46
kyaki guess it could rise suspicion :)18:47
whitequarkhuh? why?18:47
whitequarkit's just more economical, and I guess more lazy, to sell huge 2x3m sheets18:47
kyakehm, why not? i, the person "from outside", don't see a single reason why you would want a 20x20 piece of metal18:48
kyakmy next question was - what were you going to do :)18:49
whitequarkand why would that be of any concern to you?18:49
kyaknah, not to me..18:49
whitequarkbehold, the most toxic of all USSR mentality, in the chat right next to you18:49
whitequarkif a person does something you could not think of, they must be doing something /weird/! they must be crushed before they actually have a chance at success!18:50
kyakthat's quite right18:53
whitequarkit's actually quite telling that the people actually selling me shit have /never/ asked what i want it for. they either sell or decide it's not worth it for them18:53
whitequarkit's always the 'policymakers' who get these ideas18:53
whitequarkcan't make anything, make a policy, i guess18:53
kyaklet's put it aside, what are you doing right now?18:53
whitequarka chamber for magnetron sputtering18:54
whitequark(not the microwave kind)18:54
kyakok, after a bit of google translate i (maybe) get it. What's it for?18:56
whitequarkI actually have no idea how it's called in russian18:56
whitequarkwonder what did you even get from GT18:57
kyakreading https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%8B%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B518:57
whitequarkthat's quite right18:57
whitequarkit's mainly to do something simple to get a hang of vacuum tech, before I move on to more complex topics18:59
whitequarkbut this can be useful on its own merit18:59
whitequarkDIY LCDs!18:59
kyakwow, that's insane18:59
whitequarkI don't actually know how to make the glass-lcd-glass sandwich19:00
whitequarknot a glass sealed one like they make in the indsutry at least19:00
whitequarkbut electrodes would be doable.19:00
kyakjust reading this article alone, i can't get impression how this could be doable by a single person19:00
whitequarkoh, it's fairly trivial19:00
whitequarkI already have a prototype, it just kinda desolders itself when I run it for more than five minutes19:00
kyak-))19:01
whitequarkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Sic1DRXJI has an incredibly crude and dangerous variant19:01
whitequarkalso no argon, so the films are all oxidized to hell19:01
whitequarkbut that one can be built using a dumpster and determination19:02
whitequarkI have a proper MOSFET-based power supply and feedback for process control19:02
whitequarkand a nicer chamber, soon19:02
kyakok ,so what's your end mission anyway?19:02
whitequarkshort term, I want to make a GC-MS19:03
whitequarkit requires some impressive chamber making skills, and somewhat less impressive HV RF power supply skills19:03
whitequarkspecifically a QMA-based MS19:03
whitequarkI've had a productive conversation with a guy who makes those for a decade or two, I have a good idea of what electronics will I need19:04
whitequarkchamber, not as much so, but should be doable19:04
whitequarklong term, CMOS ICs. it'll actually require sputtering (those metal gates!), and RIE, and CVD (both of which use really similar equipment to a sputterer), and a QMA (without the GC part), and a bunch more things19:06
kyakoh, man, too much for me to google.. so you want to make  device to analyze what is contained in a given sample of matter?19:07
whitequarkyeah19:07
kyakveryfancy!19:07
whitequarkit's not a star trek tricorder19:07
whitequarkbecause it requires fairly complex and extensive calibration19:07
whitequarkbut it's a very useful device19:07
kyakis it for your own entertainment or is it your work project?19:08
whitequarkentertainment19:08
kyakdoes it matter what to analyze (gas, liquid, etc? )19:08
whitequarkwell, the mass spectrometer works with ions19:09
whitequarkionization is actually a topic unto itself19:09
wpwrakkyak: i guess at work he builds wormhole generators ...19:09
whitequarkyou could ionize gases, or vaporized liquids19:09
whitequarkor you could smash ions into a surface, and sputter some ions19:09
whitequarkcalled secondary ion mass spectrometry19:09
kyakwhitequark: so you need to take action on that matter? like, ionieze it?19:10
whitequarkv. useful for analyzing the "slices" of surfaces19:10
whitequarklike the exact composition of an oxide film on steel, shit like that19:10
whitequarkyeah19:10
whitequarkin a GC-MS you get a gas inside the spectrometer19:10
whitequarkusually you vaporize a liquid. the GC column is held at 100-200°C19:10
kyakwpwrak: whatever he builds, i only hope it works for good of mankind: ))19:10
whitequarkwpwrak: lolnope. smartphone apps19:11
whitequarkand until recently, websites on ruby on rails19:11
kyaklike that --^ :)19:11
kyakwhitequark: ok, cosindering i only understand 10% of what you say, it's still very interesting. how the hell is this entertaining?19:12
wpwraki guess the real objective is to have a talk for the next EHSM. the sort of talk that will discourage all further submissions :)19:13
whitequarkconverse question, how the hell is any of shit people usually find entertaining is not boring as hell19:13
kyaki mean, entertaining is good, but doing real profit in production/ whatever?19:13
whitequarkwell19:13
whitequarkthese skills are quite rare, much more so than your typical webdev shit19:14
whitequarkand they are valued well if you know the right people19:14
whitequarkbut this is not why i work on it19:14
whitequarkwpwrak: actually inspired by EHSM here19:14
whitequarkmet the MS guy at EHSM19:14
kyaki'm telling you, this shit is valued, "even" in russia :)19:15
whitequarkpeople doing this stuff in russia are stuck a few decades ago19:16
whitequarkhell, the MS guy (from Poland, which is ex-USSR) was surprised when I showed him that you can /simulate circuits on a computer/19:16
whitequarkquote: "wow, you can do that?!"19:17
kyakstill the wikipedia article mentiones some "soviet time" publictions19:17
whitequarkwell, warsaw pact19:17
whitequarkyes, there was quite some impressive work done19:17
whitequarkbut i mean. these people still consider a turbomolecular pump 'too complex' and 'new' and 'expensive'19:17
whitequarkand sit on their crappy oil diffusion pumps19:18
whitequarkwhich are just... i don't know why would anyone ever want to use that19:18
kyakyep, i don't know what you are talking about, but i understand what you mean19:19
kyakstill, i'm seeing sometimes (by the duties of me job) people and organizations who are doing very crazy things19:19
whitequarkI don't doubt that, I have seen it19:20
whitequarkbut also things that are heroic only if you pretend it's still 197019:20
kyakthat, too19:20
whitequarkhave you /seen/ the welding equipment that /still sells/?19:22
whitequarkthey use a 200-kg rectifier and a 100-kg rheostat to control current19:22
whitequarkto do the job that a 10kg IGBT-based inverter does much better19:22
whitequarkthey /still manufacture those anew/19:22
kyakwhitequark: i'm wondering, why don't you find a job that satisfies you both mentally and financually? I mean, some doing some ruby shit for money and crazy state-of-the-art the entertainment?19:22
kyakjust doesn't make sense...19:23
whitequarkbecause i have attention span of a fruit fly and i don't want my financials to be dependent on whether i get bored with the cool thing i came up with yesterday19:23
whitequarkand ruby shit is already boring to the extreme, it can't get any worse by design19:24
whitequarkthat's half the reason.19:24
whitequarkthe second half is that current state of the art requires years of investment just to get up-to-date19:24
whitequarkand it pigeonholes you into a specific position in specific industry19:24
whitequarkwhereas as it is, i'm free to go as wide as it pleases me19:24
whitequarkit'll be /nowhere/ near state of the art19:25
whitequarkever19:25
whitequarkbecause state of the art means hundreds of people19:25
kyakso it's you personal freedom that's more important?19:26
whitequarki suppose? if it's going to be for fun19:26
whitequarkalso, ruby pays well. my last job (pre-crisis) was 90kRUB net19:27
whitequarkin a place that does cutting edge research in RU they'll give you twenty if you're lucky19:27
whitequarkthat's a choice between rent and food :]19:28
kyakand getting to your question.. i don't know of those companies. But i know of companies who build atomic stations abroad, and that's pretty state-of-the-art - and also companies who are into military and space, and there are pretty fascinating things going on19:30
whitequark(atomic stations) lol19:30
whitequarkstate-of-the-art nuclear plants are /literally/ based on 1970s design19:30
whitequarkbecause of regulatory inanity19:31
whitequarkand space, really, too, compare what SpaceX does with what NASA did19:31
kyakyou are not even close to knowing what's going on in those high regulated industries (like medicine, aerospace, and nuclear) - but let me assure you, we are very solid there :)19:32
kyak1970s design doesn't equal to bad19:33
whitequarki certainly hope so19:33
kyakalso, it's not true19:33
kyaki mean, its not 70's design19:33
whitequarkso, where's our LFTR reactors? :]19:34
kyaklet me google it for me :)19:34
kyakah, i don't know.. i'll try to ask when i have a chance19:35
whitequarkas far as I'm aware, the problem is that regulatory requirements are evolved to pigeonhole old reactor designs19:35
whitequarkwhich are good at producing weapons-grade plutonium and not good at not producing shit that takes billions of years to degrade19:36
whitequarkthere are real problems with LFTR, which could be solved with more research, who almost no one does, because even a better LFTR reactor isn't going to be approved for operation19:37
kyakthere is IEC61508 (which has according GOST) and also IEC 61513 which is followed here in RUssia.. and these regulations are definitely not from 70s19:37
whitequarkthey still favor the same old designs19:39
whitequarkI don't know what happens in space, but I know that SpaceX lands their boosters and NASA or Energiya throw them in the dumpster19:39
whitequarkand I really, really doubt that SpaceX made any fundamental breakthrough19:40
kyakah! actually, not at all. Those standards are pretty generic and they support many design workflows. Including modern, such as model-based design19:40
whitequarkI don't know further details from this point but this is a fairly common complaint by engineers from industry, so you'd have to find someone more educated than me19:40
kyakthat's a fair complaint19:41
kyakif viric happens to visit us sometime, i'll be eager to tell you more :)19:43
virichi20:06
viricdamn it, publicbt does not tell their own url in their website20:06
virichttp://publicbt.com/20:06
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: you're incredible :-D20:49
viricDo you know how to embed a DTB into a kernel?20:50
viricisn't there a kernel config option for that? Does it really have to be done manually?20:50
virica device tree blob, or whatever it's called20:50
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I'm really bored, mostly21:50
DocScrutinizer05either I answet "that's self evident" or I answer "can't believe that, seeing what you do all the time"22:01
mthviric: pcercuei added DT support in our kernel in these two commits: https://github.com/gcwnow/linux/commit/b1384b76 and https://github.com/gcwnow/linux/commit/a9a9a68d22:03
mthit seems that you add the DTB file as a dependency in one of the Makefiles and the kernel build will generate it for you then from the DTS file22:04
viricgraet!22:05
viricthat is, great!22:05
viricmth: what Makefile?23:58
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