#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2015-01-14

wpwrakwould be a lot more awesome if it could detect the keys you're pressing on the device it is charging :)00:09
nicksydneywpwrak: it's open source so it could be done :)00:10
nicksydneyanother cool project http://www.novalia.co.uk/portfolio/dj-qbert-interactive-dj-decks/00:11
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: update the menu bar (specifically, View > Show ...) after changes with "/" (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/e3deb3900:55
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: slicer/slice.c (eq): increase epsilon from 1e-6 to 1e-5 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/02d2b2800:55
xiangfuarchang: Hello03:07
xiangfuis the package (Y-cables) sent out to werner?03:08
xiangfuarchang: wpwrak I generate the gerber file at here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/anelok/kicad/03:31
xiangfuI will send out this file today or tomorrow.03:31
wpwrakxiangfu: how are you sending the cables ? air mail ?05:28
xiangfuair mail, DHL.05:40
wpwrakDHL is courier or regular mail in this case ? regular mail is better if there are problems, because customs clearance is in the city, not a trip out to the airport05:43
wpwrakwe now have a restriction on "internet purchases", with a very fuzzy definition of what that is supposed to mean, so please make sure it doesn't look like a "purchase"05:44
wpwrak(the good news are that there will be new elections in october, when the idiot government we have to thank for for all this insanity will hopefully receive a kick in the butt ...)05:45
wpwrakgerbers look good. there are a few slightly sloppy spots but hopefully the pcb makers won't mind. specifically, issues that may not like:05:47
wpwrak1) there's sometimes silk screen on solder mask openings. clearances should still be well sufficient to avoid trouble. if they really hate it, tick "Subtract soldermask from silk screen" in the Gerber dialog.05:49
wpwrak2) one positioning mark of the OLED FPC touches a hole (for the switch). this is expected and there's nothing we can do about it. the PCB makers should just try their best there. if the positioning mark doesn't make it or comes out wrong, that's not a problem.05:51
wpwrak3) the battery pads exceed the PCB. again, that's intentional. they'll have to trim them in one way or another. the edge outline is right, so the pads should be cut.05:54
wpwrak4) similarly, there is silk screen for the switch and for the memory card holder that exceeds the board outline. again, the excessive silk screen should just be ignored.05:56
wpwrakmost likely, the only thing they may complain about is 3). you may want to attach a note telling them that we know this and that they should just cut off as much of the pad as they have to.05:58
wpwrakand you don't need to send them anelok-Dwgs_User.gbr or any anelok-*_Paste.*, but they probably already know to ignore such things :)06:00
xiangfuwpwrak: DHL is fast. the other option is EMS.06:47
xiangfu[doesn't look like a purchase]: Yes.06:58
xiangfugerber: thanks for the info. now I know how to answer them when they are asking :)07:04
xiangfuwhat is those Dwgs_User/*_Paste* for?07:05
xiangfuarchang: I document the steps here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/KiCad_Gerber_and_Drill_Files#Version_2013-Jul-07-stable 07:05
xiangfuwpwrak: I think next step here is find the BOM of anelok.08:33
eintopfwin 208:43
wpwrakxiangfu in absentia: (DHL) yes, courier is usually much nicer - except that it ends up at a potentially very hostile customs point in argentina. postal services - including EMS - take a different and hopefully more friendly route.12:17
wpwrakxiangfu in absentia: (BOM) it's cleverly hidden in anelok/bom/ ;-) you have to generate it, though. but that's explained in the README. speaking of the BOM ... just found an error (had the wrong USB receptacle). fixed now.13:22
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20150114_003.jpg  http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20150114_001.jpg  :-D17:04
DocScrutinizer05HP err Agilent err KeySight17:06
DocScrutinizer05never before seen or heard of such a monster17:07
DocScrutinizer05I wonder oif they actually had a test spec that says "device - except fuse - survives 10 times applying 600V AC at ESR 1mOhm to the Ampere range probe jacks"17:11
whitequarkoh, 30kA fuse17:23
DocScrutinizer05yeah, capable of breaking 20kA17:27
DocScrutinizer05err 3017:27
DocScrutinizer05nominal blow is 11A17:27
DocScrutinizer05hihi, lightning thunder the very moment I sent "err 30"17:28
DocScrutinizer05more than 600V though ;-P17:28
DocScrutinizer0530kA sounds about right for lightning as well17:29
wpwrakcurrent may be about right, though: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1997/BrookeHaramija.shtml17:29
DocScrutinizer05eventually I'll have to check how much ionizing radiation lightning emits. There are claims lightning even causes fusion reactions (H -> He)17:31
DocScrutinizer05X-ray sounds absolutely plausible. gamma claimed to be observed, though sounds not plausible. Alpha, well... dunno17:32
whitequarka fusor is a pretty simple device17:33
whitequarkyou need 4keV to fuse D-T17:34
DocScrutinizer05extremely simple but *huge*17:34
DocScrutinizer05I prefer thinking in degrees Kelvin17:35
DocScrutinizer05simpler than transforming temperature into "speed"17:36
DocScrutinizer05I guess in lightning the problem isn't the temperature but the pressure17:38
whitequarktoo high? hmm17:38
DocScrutinizer05the H+ won't get accelerated sufficiently to collide, by the electric field17:39
DocScrutinizer05only change is to accelerate them by high temperature and high pressure17:40
whitequarknot sure about "high pressure", in a fusor you have dilute gas17:40
whitequarki mean the issue here is mean free path17:40
whitequarkif it's too low, you aren't accelerating the ions fast enough17:40
DocScrutinizer05yeah, when you accelerate ions in a filed, it is17:41
whitequarkat 1atm it is on the order in 400nm17:41
DocScrutinizer05laser fusors work by shooting laser beams on a tiny ball of fusion material from all sides, to create a sort of containment, by both light pressure and explosion momentum. While same time heating up the material to extreme temperatures17:43
whitequarkyeah, but a lightning is nowhere near that17:44
DocScrutinizer05of course you can fusion H+ in even tiny cyclotrons, in vacuum, but that's not how lightning works17:44
DocScrutinizer05so much for my uneducated take on "lightning creates fusion reactions"17:45
DocScrutinizer05I doubt it17:46
DocScrutinizer05>> yield of ~1015 neutrons per lightning flash<< LOL17:49
DocScrutinizer05ooh, prolly they mean 10^1517:50
DocScrutinizer05meh, you beat me to it ;-)17:50
DocScrutinizer05http://susepaste.org/36864282 :)18:30
DocScrutinizer05now if I also would find a doc about the supported commands...18:49
DocScrutinizer05dang, the (not included!!!) 134 pages manual for the U1233A obviously has zilch info about the supported command set, only a vague pointer to that dang windoze app "Agilent GUI Data Logger Software"19:57
DocScrutinizer05http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=878442&lc=eng&cc=GB&nid=-11143.0.00&id=878442  suckers!20:03
DocScrutinizer05hmm  http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/release-note1.txt  >>4. Removed Scpi command SYST:TENV 1<<  Seems I'm up to my own to test SCPI commands if they work with U1233A or not20:09
wpwrakmaybe look for the 34401A command set. should be very similar20:16
DocScrutinizer05any pointer for that one?20:24
DocScrutinizer05agilent website sucks big time20:24
wpwrakthe keyword you need is "scpi" :)  http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/34401-90004.pdf20:29
wpwrakah, keysight have it, too: http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/servlet/JiveServlet/download/124-35351-107364-5847/34410A_11A_SCPI_Reference.pdf20:31
DocScrutinizer05https://www.keysight.com/overlay/asmpostauth?env=https://www.keysight.com/my/faces/pages_home has infinite recursion, idiots!20:31
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: thanks a megaton!20:32
DocScrutinizer05216 x 279 mm (portrait letter) page size, average of 10 lines per page, ~1100 pages. Are those guys nuts?20:34
DocScrutinizer051900 pages, http://susepaste.org/6139675720:35
wpwrakwell, consider the font size ;-))20:36
wpwrakand the document structure :)20:36
DocScrutinizer05prolly made for cassiopeia20:36
DocScrutinizer05640*240 pix screen20:36
wpwrakbut i guess you'll get as much information, if not more, from the agilent manual20:36
Action: DocScrutinizer05 closes that keysight abomination20:42
DocScrutinizer05agilent explanation of SCPI is scary enough ;-)20:43
DocScrutinizer05                       *E20:59
DocScrutinizer05*E is the standard response to virtually everything20:59
DocScrutinizer05actually *IDN? is the only command so far that produces anything other than *E21:02
DocScrutinizer05and switching the rotary dial produces *1 *2 *3 aso depending on position21:02
whitequarkugggggh scpi21:02
wpwraksome devices let you send "button presses" and return a bitmap of which LCD segments are active in response ;-)21:03
wpwrakso be thankful for SCPI :)21:04
DocScrutinizer05pressing the pressing the "TRIG HOLD / AUTO LOG" blue button produces "unsolicited response code" like "010016512000200" (incl ") for a display reading of 16.5 mV AC21:04
DocScrutinizer05only one though, for each keypress21:05
larscif only devices would follow the standard21:06
wpwraknow where would be the fun if they did ?21:07
DocScrutinizer05yeah :-/21:07
larscwhat I've heard is tha often devices speak a dialect that is only compatible to the vendors control software21:07
wpwrak... and whatever you have to write to talk to the critter regardless :)21:09
wpwrakbut yes, there are ugly variations21:09
DocScrutinizer05YEEHAAA *RST works too21:12
DocScrutinizer05WOOOOOWooowWOOOOWWW! 21:22
DocScrutinizer05         -100,Command error21:22
DocScrutinizer05so it at least DOES speak SYS:SUBSYS:CMD syntax21:23
wpwrakenjoy the three ways to do measurements :)21:28
larscok... I'm getting ads on youtube that urge me to sign up for the 2013 new year's eve party. Did my timemachine finally work?21:34
DocScrutinizer05for now I don't see a single way to record measurements21:35
wpwraklarsc: why ? it's about the right time to plan the parties. less than a week to go. oh, and merry x-mess !21:40
wpwraki'd try MEAS:... worry about errors only when they happen ;-)22:07
DocScrutinizer05MEAS:VOLT:AC?;*E :-S22:14
DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/cb048a625a several AC voltage readings (getting them by pushbutton method) in the range 8.x..9.x mV; one DC voltage iirc +0.1mV; three resistance readings infinite, "short" (0.2 Ohm?) and 8.15M22:24
DocScrutinizer05I guess it's time to give up on that one for now22:26
DocScrutinizer05keysight/GUI_DataLogger_v1.7.1.zip/GUI_DataLogger_v1.7.1 http://wstaw.org/m/2015/01/14/plasma-desktopzo2003.png22:36
DocScrutinizer05I wonder if HP/Agilent/KeySight doesn't feel like publishing a decent "SCPI Conformity Spec" for their stuff22:38
wpwraktry  MEAS:VOLT:DC?  or such22:56
wpwrakthe  ;*E   you tried seems weird. i never used that.22:56
wpwrak(conformity spec) to help the cloners ? hah ! :)22:57
DocScrutinizer05; == ^J23:01
DocScrutinizer05*E == Agilent_says_'SUCKER'23:01
DocScrutinizer05((try  MEAS:VOLT:DC?  or such)) MEAS:VOLT:AC?  ==  "or such"?23:02
DocScrutinizer05(particularly since the device been set to AC by turndial)23:02
DocScrutinizer05http://wstaw.org/m/2015/01/15/plasma-desktopIt2003.png caused somebody hogging my network with 1.6Mbit  >:-(23:04
wpwrakthe MEAS command should override the manual setting23:04
DocScrutinizer05how would it do that on a turndial button?23:04
DocScrutinizer05even when it does - I doubt MEAS for the mode currently manually selected is invalid23:05
wpwrakthat turndial is typically just an encoder23:05
DocScrutinizer05hmm, hardly23:06
DocScrutinizer05particularly since uA and Volt are same prope jacks23:06
wpwrakah, that's unusual23:06
DocScrutinizer05this critter is battery powered, it doesn't have energy for fancy relays23:07
wpwrakokay, my bench meters do the occasional clicking ;-)23:14
whitequarki've seen relays with coil current in milliamp range23:14
whitequark5ma for sure23:14
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: bistable relay.23:14
DocScrutinizer05((;*E)) http://privatepaste.com/63ff203728  ^J vs ;23:14
wpwrakphew. http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-case-20150114.png23:14
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: it's simply not built like this23:14
DocScrutinizer05I mean the critter costs <200 bucks23:14
DocScrutinizer05incl "Calibration Certificate"23:14
wpwraki don't think you need that *E. just MEAS:...? should do the trick23:14
wpwrakmaybe you need CRLF or such23:14
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: I start to headdesk!! *E is DMM's answer!23:14
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Volt-Latching-Relay-2-Form-C-DPDT-EB2-5SN-/11046345719623:14
wpwrakoh :)23:14
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: don't tell me, tell KeySight!23:14
wpwrakbut wait ... you're beginning the command with a * ? that doesn't look right23:14
DocScrutinizer05I tried _all_ possible permutations23:14
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I mean, it fits into both power and economic budget 23:14
DocScrutinizer05with and without *, with sub and subsub-cmd23:14
wpwrakwell, try to23:14
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: but not into design budget23:14
wpwrak- set it to VDC and connect something with a non-random value (battery or such)23:15
wpwrak- power-cycle23:15
wpwrak- then send  MEAS:VOLT:DC?<CR>23:15
DocScrutinizer05<CR> doesn't work23:15
DocScrutinizer05needs ^J or ;23:15
DocScrutinizer05funny enough it accepts ; just like ^J23:16
DocScrutinizer05I think 0.000V is good enough of a stable voltage23:17
wpwrakah yes, there's something wrong with the command. checking ...23:17
DocScrutinizer05             *E23:19
DocScrutinizer05*1 == Volt~ pos of turn knob23:19
DocScrutinizer05*2 = VolT= pos of turn knob23:19
DocScrutinizer05entered ^j after cmd23:20
DocScrutinizer05device aswers *E23:20
wpwrakwhat does  CONF?  say ?23:20
DocScrutinizer05\o/ third command that works23:21
DocScrutinizer05     "V,0,DC"23:21
wpwrakah, found it :)23:21
wpwrakthen 23:21
DocScrutinizer05         *E23:22
wpwrakSYST:REM   without leading : ?23:22
wpwrakat least it's consistent :)23:23
DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/7e8edda84a ;-D23:24
DocScrutinizer05*1 == Unsolicited Response Code when switching back to pos1=AC23:24
wpwraknice :)23:25
wpwrakmaybe try  :MEAS?23:26
DocScrutinizer05changed from auto range to 0.00:23:31
DocScrutinizer05     "V,2,AC"23:31
DocScrutinizer05you're the genius!!!23:31
DocScrutinizer05READ works23:31
wpwrakphew. finally :)23:31
DocScrutinizer05     +0.00000000E+0023:31
wpwrakas if it had that precision ;-)23:31
DocScrutinizer05and the SUCKER the BASTARD doesn't accept ; instead of ^J for READ?23:31
DocScrutinizer05rhat's prolly why I missed it so far23:31
DocScrutinizer05I actually tried READ before23:31
wpwraknot sure if ; is even valid after READ?23:32
wpwrakat least mine doesn't like it23:32
DocScrutinizer05it takes ; as termination for almost everything, even READ?, since it instantly answers with *E23:33
DocScrutinizer05according to SCPI specs ; is for multiple commands per line. So I thought "duh, lazy sucker simple did ';==^J' to simplify stuff"23:35
DocScrutinizer05and since ^J is a PITA to type, I used ; instead from then on23:35
DocScrutinizer05     +2.34350000E+0223:39
DocScrutinizer05one digit more than in display23:39
DocScrutinizer05no notification about "Esc" button getting pressed to V~ -> Freq23:42
wpwrakhehe :)23:42
DocScrutinizer05those unsolicited *2 *3 etc only appear for trun knob23:42
DocScrutinizer05anyway thanks for smashing the critter23:43
DocScrutinizer05anybody an idea how much jitter and which frequency of jitter supposed to be seen in German/European power grid?23:46
DocScrutinizer05seems to jitter ~0.01Hz up and down, in a few seconds, according to this DMM. I think I know whom to blame23:47
DocScrutinizer05DUH! +5.00320000E+0123:50
DocScrutinizer05http://privatepaste.com/585e7fdbc7 interval ~1s23:52
DocScrutinizer05sounds non-plausible for power grid, very plausible though for some systematic error inside DMM23:53
DocScrutinizer05though who knows, might as well be regulation overshots as seen with any PID regulator ;-D23:56
DocScrutinizer05particularly since the wole thing needs to stay in phase23:57
DocScrutinizer05long term23:57
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