#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2014-10-21

sb0DocScrutinizer05, http://debianfork.org/11:32
DocScrutinizer05in the end this might be a storm that cleans the air and puts those "it's desktop, and desktop only" distros to where they belong: a niche in linuxland for those who want a pseudo-windows12:08
larscwell, some people talk and some people walk12:18
larscI think this is more talk than walk12:18
whitequarkI'd expect that normal Debian process will resolve this, without these threats12:21
whitequarkwe'll see12:21
mththis article states that the real issue is that there is no alternative implementation for logind: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html12:30
mthit's easy to be against something, but to make real progress it would be good to offer alternatives12:31
mthso instead of threatening to fork, actually fork, not in a hostile way but in a way to demonstrate a working system without systemd12:32
whitequarkthe systems worked perfectly without systemd, until some morons from GNOME decided it has to be a mandatory requirement.12:34
mthhaving a GUI to administrate the system is in itself not a bad idea12:36
mthhaving a management API with only one implementation is the problem12:36
whitequarkhaving a management API which is written for and only for a single GUI implementation is the issue12:37
mthin particular if that one implementation is suffering from scope creep12:37
whitequarkit's in extension a poorly separated part of GNOME, which is a kitchen sink for whatever abstractions GNOME might want12:37
whitequarkI definitely do not want a poorly separated part of GNOME to overtake every vital function on my system.12:38
larscKDE will depend on systemd for session management12:43
kyak"a complex collection of dozens of tightly coupled binaries" -> coreutils? :)13:03
whitequarktightly coupled?13:04
whitequark(besides, it's not like I think coreutils are a marvel of engineering either)13:04
kyakmost utilities from coreutils are designed to work with other utilities from coreutils. It's hard to imaging a one-liner without calling at least two utilities from coreutils13:09
kyakso yeah, tightly coupled13:09
whitequarkI don't think you understand what "tight coupling" is13:09
whitequarkthe utilities from coreutils have a well-defined (if somewhat weak) interface: plaintext13:09
whitequarkit's not going to change. grep is not going to suddenly start requiring json or \0 instead of \n.13:10
whitequarkwhereas in case of systemd, you have utilities which talk via a complex protocol which changes at will of the developers. it's neither documented nor guaranteed to stay same--indeed, it's essentially guaranteed to break often13:10
kyakis this what troubles veteran unix admins?13:12
kyakis it the technical side, like you described, what bothers them - or the phylosophical?13:13
larscchange is not good!13:13
whitequarkthere is no difference13:13
whitequarklarsc: I'm not against change. I think it's time for sysvinit to go13:15
whitequarkI just don't want the change to be done by incompetent people.13:15
whitequarksay, I'd take upstart (still used in Chrome OS and some ?Ubuntu flavors) or initng (sadly, long dead) over systemd at any time of day13:16
whitequarkI've used both when I maintained a sort of linux distribution (it was a bit like Angstrom, before Angstrom got popular)13:16
kyaki'll just watch for survival of the fittest13:17
whitequarkthe fittest is Windows XP, obviously13:17
kyakseems to be replaced slowly but steadily, so no13:18
whitequarkconsider this: lots of people are actively trying to get rid of Windows XP, and it still has how much more market share than all of GNU/Linux distros combined? 10x?13:19
kyakthis proves that people are slow to accept changes13:20
whitequarkin my view, this proves that Windows XP is a much better OS13:20
kyakif so, than sysvinit is much worse than systemd :)13:21
kyakbecause people are voting13:21
kyakeven more, there is no good alternative to systemd.. because if it was, wouldn't the comminuty eagerly use it?13:22
kyakin other words - if systemd is bad, why is it so popular?13:22
whitequarkif smoking kills you, why is it so popular?13:22
whitequarkplease, learn to troll better, or something, and then return13:23
kyakyou can make many analogies, but this doesn't answer the question13:23
kyaki'm not trolling ffs.13:23
kyakbut you just finished this conversaion13:23
ysionneaufor those who haven't seen it: http://forkfedora.org/13:57
kyakhilarious :)13:59
jbenedettoalong with http://debianfork.org/14:01
wpwrakbah. i can top this: /etc/rc.d/init.d/sendmail -> #!/bin/sh   exec /etc/my-scripts/sendmail-init14:28
wpwraksee, just one line. clearly, my system is superior ;-)14:28
pcercueiit won't work, it's a co,,ent14:29
ysionneauin two lines :)14:29
ysionneauwpwrak: I just double click on the sendmail icon on my desktop, no one can beat that!14:30
wpwraki guess the next step would be to have it running somewhere in the cloud ;-)14:32
ysionneauyeah more buzzwords14:33
whitequarkyou know, wpwrak, otherwise that would be fully14:33
wpwrakyoda 2.0 ;-)14:33
whitequarkexcept that a typical crappy startup really does depend on 10-20 external HTTP services that correspond to trivial Unix tools mostly14:33
whitequarkit's extra fun when half of them is based on the same provider and they go down14:33
wpwrakls -> listcloud.com ;-)14:34
whitequarkit's squared more fun when after a year, half of them go on "an incredible journey"14:34
whitequark(see http://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com)14:34
wpwrakyeah. mergers and acquisitions have never been quite that much fun ;-))14:35
kyakall these letters.. were written by the same person --)14:40
mthwhitequark: so startups aren't selling their product when they get acquired, they're selling their employees?15:54
mthhi pempernik15:55
pempernikhow are you mth?15:55
mthfine, thanks15:55
pempernikgood day today.15:57
pempernikgot confirmation for a grant to fund for my research15:58
mthwhat are you researching?15:58
pemperniknanofabrication stuff15:59
pempernikpushing the technology further using a particle-charged beam and self-assembly.15:59
eintopfhow many atoms I need for one transistor?16:00
pempernik10 16:03
pempernik2 nm16:03
pempernikwe're on the path to single atmo transistors16:04
pempernikim resposible for everything, which is empowering but also kinda intimidating16:12
eintopfoh, ok.16:13
eintopfand when I can put these things into my brain16:14
pemperniki got 6 benches, 4 undergrad students, funding for a master student, 2 postdocs and a professor on sabbatical working on it16:14
pempernikim picking up managerial skills oddly enough16:14
eintopfundergrad students are the best :)16:14
pemperniksoon enough i hope :D16:14
pempernikwe made a new superconducting computer chip recently16:15
pempernikthats like 50-100 times more energy efficient16:15
larsceintopf: summer interns are the best16:27
whitequarkmth: not quite16:28
whitequarkthe team is selling themselves.16:28
whitequarkusually at an acquihire, the company gets talent, and employees get to cash out their stock options.16:28
whitequarkpempernik: "i got 6 benches, 4 undergrad students, funding for a master student, 2 postdocs and a professor on sabbatical working on it"16:29
whitequarkshould add something to the end so that it will sound like the las vegas quote :)16:29
pemperniksorry, im ignorant about that reference.16:30
whitequarkhttps://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fear_and_Loathing_in_Las_Vegas_(novel)#Part_1., 2nd paragraph16:32
qwebirc50791How I can to buy a SIE board, I am colombian?17:10
qwebirc50791If somebody can to help my e-mail is hector.mejia.rondano@hotmail.com17:13
qwebirc50791If somebody can to help me, my e-mail is hector.mejia.rondano@hotmail.com17:13
qwebirc50791Ok, thanks.17:13
qwebirc50791i don't find the sie board, pempernik can give a link?17:19
qwebirc50791of corse, of ebay link.17:19
larscchances are quite low that you can still find one17:30
qwebirc50791what I want is http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/SIE17:33
larscI know17:48
whitequarkthere are plenty of similar boards these days, easier to obtain and even cheaper17:49
wpwrakhmm ... Veteran Unix Admins ... so i guess, if it should come to forking, the appropriate name for the debian fork would be "Cthulux", Great Old One23:51
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