#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2014-09-08

DocScrutinizer05whitequark: russian reporter lew schlossberg bashed up for reporting about russian soldiers wounded or killed in ukraina  http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/russische-soldaten-in-der-ukraine-wie-ein-kreml-kritiker-fuer-enthuellungen-mit-seiner-gesundheit-zahlt_id_4098583.html  http://www.welt.de/print/die_welt/politik/article131780836/Russischer-Politiker-verpruegelt.html03:01
DocScrutinizer05harly propaganda unless the guy is made up completely03:02
DocScrutinizer05hardly*03:02
kyakdoes it affect battery life if i always charge it from pc usb port?11:28
kyaki suspect it has killed my battery11:29
eintopfmaybe, bad charger logic11:29
kyakafter one or maybe two ywars11:29
eintopfokay after two years a battery can be damaged11:29
eintopfmeans very old and no capacity11:30
eintopfbut depends on battery type11:30
kyakthe battery is li-ino11:31
kyak*li-ion11:31
kyakit's a smart phone i'm charging11:31
kyakthe battery has lost like 90% of it's capacity by now11:31
kyakwhen the phone dyes, it takes around 3 minutes to charge it to 100% with 500 mA USB port11:32
kyak:)11:32
eintopfnormal hardware vendors let your smartphone die after two years11:33
kyakit might be some internal corruption of battery cells, i'm just wondering what would happen if i used the wall charger11:33
kyakwell, i just ordered a new battery, 30% more capacity than original, so fuck you vendors :)11:33
eintopfyea, you can do that11:33
kyakand hail China!11:33
eintopfbut the most people can't do it and buy newer models11:34
whitequarkI wonder if it's due to horrible temperature conditions11:34
eintopfand that's how the complete earth and natural environment will die11:34
whitequarkhaving a often-hot CPU in a cramped case is like the worst possible arrangement for battery life11:34
kyakthis time i'll try using usb wall charger instead of my laptop usb port11:34
whitequarkusb wall chargers usually provide *more* current than USB ports...11:34
kyakyeah, so maybe it's better for battery life?11:35
kyakbecause it would charge faster11:35
whitequarkuhhh, what? no11:35
eintopfI already saw some thinkpad with yellow usb ports... they offer more ampere11:35
whitequarkthat's like the complete opposite11:35
kyakhm, so i in fact should go on charging from usb port?11:36
whitequarkafaik li-ion life is mainly limited by heat, so by charging it faster you can only make it worse.11:36
eintopffaster -> more heat?11:36
whitequarkI suppose11:36
whitequarkyes11:36
eintopfok11:36
kyakthen usb port it is :)11:37
kyakthe battery is a bit "fat" now11:37
kyaknot flat like the new one11:37
eintopfso, you put it in the microwave?11:38
kyaknot yet :)11:38
kyaki'm actually a little bit afraid of this old battery now. It looks like it's going to explode11:38
whitequarkcould also be just shitty battery11:39
kyakwell, it served for around three years11:39
kyaki couldn't ask for more with today's batteries, i gues11:40
eintopfI like that qi-hardware make the possibility to insert nokia batteries into the nanonote11:40
eintopfbut I don't have a nanonote :(11:40
whitequarkwell, my laptop's battery is almost three years old as well11:40
whitequarkstill retains about 64%11:40
kyakhow do you measure?11:40
whitequarkacpi -V11:41
kyakah, so it's trustworthy?11:41
whitequarkit has a fuel gauge that knows this thing11:41
whitequarkwell, mostly11:41
whitequarkI know for sure that it doesn't correct for temperature, so if you charge it in a cold room and then bring in a hot one... voila, 114%11:41
eintopfmaybe whitequark do also some tweaks... not full loading of battery11:41
eintopffirst loading battery after 10%11:41
whitequarkwhat?11:41
eintopfbelow 10%*11:41
kyaki'll see how my laptop is doing.. it's been constantly plugged into the power, i use it on battery only several times in ..two years11:42
eintopfthere exist tweaks to extend the battery life11:42
eintopfnot full load battery. Making recharge cycles11:42
whitequarkafaik, most of those tweaks are obsolete after charge controllers11:42
whitequarkthey were invented in the time where "a diode" was an acceptable charging circuit11:43
eintopfmhh, don't know :(11:43
kyaki don't trust these tricks :) though i used one trick with this smartphone. When android reports 100% charge, i turn it off, and it charges some more time 11:44
eintopfhttp://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Tp_smapi#Battery_charge_control_features11:44
eintopfmeaning this11:44
kyakuntill another 100% indicator (not android one) appears11:44
whitequarkeintopf: that's even thinkpad-specific11:45
kyakit alsmost feels like android and bootloader (or whatever) charge differently11:45
eintopfyep11:45
whitequarkkyak: they do, sorta11:45
whitequarkandroid tells the host to give full 500mA, bootloader probably doesn't 11:45
whitequark(you could check by looking at lsusb)11:45
kyakinteresting, i'll have a look11:46
kyaki just remembered i also used that with wall charger11:46
kyakso they probably detect "end of charge" in different manner11:47
kyakthere are so many battery myths dating back from older designs that i don't know what to trust11:48
kyakfor example, should i do 3 cycles of complete charge-discharge with this new battery?11:48
whitequarkli-ion batteries have no memory effect11:49
whitequarkthat's only for nimh and I think nicd11:49
kyakok, thanks11:52
DocScrutinizer05~tell kyak about batteryfaq15:47
DocScrutinizer05what usually damages batteries is deep discharge15:48
DocScrutinizer05storage at deep discharge15:48
DocScrutinizer05and high temperatures15:48
DocScrutinizer05chaging current SHALL be regulated to 1C or 0.7C even, in CC phase of a controlled CC-CV charging15:49
DocScrutinizer05and actually there are "treat battery gently" setting in some laptop BIOSes: they reduce Vbatt-max by 0.1V per cell15:52
DocScrutinizer05best advice: never discharge batt to lower than 50%15:52
DocScrutinizer05do not constantly trigger recharge by replugging to USB or switching VBUS off and on again (ÜC suspend for example)15:53
DocScrutinizer05s/Ü/P15:54
DocScrutinizer05the 3 complete cycles on fresh battery are nonsense15:56
DocScrutinizer05as is "discharge battery completely 4 times a year"15:56
DocScrutinizer05[2014-09-08 Mon 17:57:42] <infobot> i heard batteryfaq is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers15:57
DocScrutinizer05oooh, and get rid of your swollen battery! it actually *might* explode15:58
DocScrutinizer05btw "high temperature" starts as low as 70°C16:00
DocScrutinizer05actually very low temperatures are allegedly also devastating to LiIon, but I can't tell about that from experience, while the other above facts are verified16:02
DocScrutinizer05or rather, particularly charging and (less severely) discharging at low temp. It seems the definitions of "low temp" varies between 0°C and -40°C16:04
DocScrutinizer05a usual pattern is: no charging below 0°C, no massive discharging below -20°C16:04
DocScrutinizer05kyak: ^^^16:05
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: re 70°C: my SGS2 was heating up so much several times, I could not bear to hold it16:12
whitequarkwhich should be about 70°C with plastics, maybe even more16:12
whitequark(water at 65°C is almost unbearable, but it transfers heat quicker and retains more of it)16:13
whitequarkre low temperatures: I wonder if the reason is the various shifts in properties of semiconductor charger and battery at low temps where it doesn't know to compensate it16:13
whitequarklike wouldn't the cell's max voltage go under 4.2V at low temp? so if you charge it with CV to 4.2¸ you're going to kill it16:14
ysionneauwhitequark: were you using the "power saving" option? (which I think downclock the device)16:14
whitequarkysionneau: uhh no, it got stuck in some kind of GPU loop or something16:14
whitequarkthe battery discharged completely in under four minutes16:14
ysionneauwow16:15
ysionneaustock ROM?16:15
whitequarkno, cyanogenmod, but it is usually *more* stable :P16:15
whitequarkit was some flaky app.16:15
ysionneauok, I have no issue with the power saving option on SGS3 stock rom, it saves battery and produces less heat16:15
ysionneaubut the UX is slower16:15
ysionneaubut I don't care that much16:15
whitequarksince the battery is 2.2Ah at avg 3.7V... it dumped 24kJ in the course of four minutes16:16
whitequarkwhich makes me wonder how the fuck it survived at all16:16
whitequarkthat's... 100W?! no, I must have made some error16:16
whitequarkI suppose the capacity would be lower at higher current16:17
whitequarkok, 1.9Ah, but that doesn't change it much16:17
whitequarkit cannot possibly dissipate 100W or even 5016:18
kyakDocScrutinizer05: ohh, many thanks for useful advice!]16:19
kyaki'm more or less following all of them "naturally", except for "never less than 50%"16:21
whitequarkmy laptop has the option of not charging the battery over 80%16:21
whitequarkmy usage is kind of the worst case for it, to be honest. I tend to completely discharge it at least once a day16:21
ysionneauso when people say "to save battery life time, always discharge 100% before recharging" it is bullshit?16:21
whitequarkbad habits, etc16:21
whitequarkysionneau: this is true for NiCd and NiMH16:21
whitequarkcomplete bullshit for LiIon16:22
ysionneauoh, ok16:22
whitequarkre bad habits: so I suppose this is a really good battery+controller, as they survived this long16:22
ysionneau17:52 < DocScrutinizer05> best advice: never discharge batt to lower than 50%  < with nowdays smartphones this is very difficult16:24
ysionneauat the end of the day you have usually < 50%16:24
whitequarkpffft, just make it automatically turn off when it reaches 50%16:24
kyakwhitequark: btw, my laptop battery is at 91% of its capacity after two years of "optimal" usage16:25
whitequarkit's not like you do anything except playing candy crush on it anyway16:25
ysionneaumy office lenovo laptop is always plugged in its dockstation and therefore plugged to AC supply, but I guess there is a controller which helps here16:25
kyak"Check every 3 months and recharge when due, cells will self-discharge over time and once they reach 0% level they are dead within weeks! "16:37
kyakdamn, my stock of nokia batteries must be dead now16:37
kyakbut i'm too lazy to check them even once in three months16:38
DocScrutinizer05seems once a year usually suffices16:39
kyaki also usually keep batteries inside old phones16:41
DocScrutinizer05self discharge shouldn't be that high usually. But that depends on battery quality. Mucj dirt and dust in manufacturing results in micro-perforations in separator which cause increased self discharge and worst case make batteries explode16:41
DocScrutinizer05keeping in device is a *very* poor idea16:41
DocScrutinizer05no device has a decent off state, so they discharge batteries during months in off state16:42
kyakyeah, so i'll put it out16:42
kyakhow do you know when to throw a battery away?16:43
kyakeven the swolen one can turn out to be useful some day :)16:43
whitequarkpffff, with the current prices on batteries, nope16:45
whitequarkthey're dirt cheap because of chinese dumping them in huge quantities16:45
DocScrutinizer05yes, the swollen one can be mad useful... as lighter ;-P16:50
kyakok, ok, i'm throwing it away :)16:51
whitequarklighter? more like landmine16:55
whitequarkI mean, we all know DocScrutinizer05 freely interchanges the two16:55
whitequarkbut maybe kyak isn't so enlightened yet16:55
kyakdefinitely not16:57
DocScrutinizer05exploding LiIon cells not only may start fires, they also vent tasty stuff like HF acid17:02
DocScrutinizer05(this is an unconfirmed rumor I spread here)17:03
whitequarkHF?17:04
whitequarkit doesn't contain F¯17:04
DocScrutinizer05the organic acid dielectricum and the separator may17:05
DocScrutinizer05dunno17:05
whitequarkseparator is polyethylene I think?17:06
DocScrutinizer05particularly the separator might be PTFE17:06
whitequarkhrm17:06
whitequarkPTFE17:06
whitequarkdoes it get hot enough for PTFE to decompose?17:06
DocScrutinizer05when the battery explodes? sure17:06
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: oh you seem to be right17:06
whitequarkenergizer says lithium ion fire produces HF.17:07
whitequarkyeah, plenty of safety documents mention it17:07
whitequarknteresting17:07
kyakhttp://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/bear-grylls-escape-from-hell/videos/gum-wrapper-plus-battery-fire.htm17:11
kyakyou don't need an explosion to make a fire :)17:11
jbenedet1olots of things make less than desirable biproducts when they burn.17:27
whitequarkfor example, money, you can accidentally make Silicon Valley17:27
jbenedet1olol17:27
jbenedet1oR-12 refridgerant when exposed to an open flame makes phosgene gas17:28
whitequark... or just PVC17:28
whitequarkwell, it wasn't phosgene maybe, I need to recheck17:29
jbenedet1oPVC? 17:30
whitequarkpolyvinylchloride17:30
jbenedet1o hydrogen chloride is your poison your thinking of.17:30
jbenedet1oindeed17:31
whitequarkright17:31
whitequarkdoesn't it also emit phosgene?17:31
jbenedet1oI dont recall it being one of the major hazards, at fire school the bigger concern was the hydrogen chloride.17:32
whitequarkI see17:33
jbenedet1oI'm trying to think of some of the other good ones17:35
jbenedet1osome other plastics generate Hydrogen Cyanide. 17:37
jbenedet1owhich is a *LOVELY* friend to have in the air.17:37
DocScrutinizer05yep, pretty common17:38
DocScrutinizer05already known from ancient celluloid films17:38
jbenedet1oits only a few hundred ppm for the LD50 dose in air.17:38
DocScrutinizer05in old cinemas you still see the "funny" steel dors that close even the glass covered windows between projector room and visitor room17:39
DocScrutinizer05doors*17:40
DocScrutinizer05the steel cassettes where your reels sit in17:40
DocScrutinizer05film coming out between two steel rollers that are supposed to stop that perverted nitrocellulose from burning into the cassette17:42
jbenedet1olol17:42
DocScrutinizer05and the doots at windows closing automatically when a tiny cotton thread on projector snaps open and thus a contact closes17:43
DocScrutinizer05the projector man was the doomed one ;-P17:43
jbenedet1oapparently17:43
jbenedet1ohowever as far as the big killer, trusty ol' carbon monoxide does the job nearly every time.17:44
DocScrutinizer05it was even forbidden to transport the film reels in tram17:44
DocScrutinizer05I think CO was the other major product of celluloid burning17:45
DocScrutinizer05causing the really nasty secondary explosion when it ignites17:45
jbenedet1oCO is pretty much the result of buring everything, and the #1 killer in fires17:46
DocScrutinizer05yeah, but in celluloid fires it's created in such a volume it starts to create explosive concentrations. which tells some tale about the chances of the projector dude17:47
jbenedet1ohahah17:47
jbenedet1oyeah most people forget it burns.17:47
jbenedet1oSteel mills and the like generally reuse it in such fashion17:47
DocScrutinizer05http://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC2Q2NM_park-kino?guid=e07d6437-49b7-4bba-ada4-2fc2af747925   >> Am 15.6.1940 brach während der Vorstellung von "Feuerteufel" (sic!) im Operateurraum des Park - Kinos ein Brand aus. Im Nu standen 2800 Meter Film in Flammen (damals waren die Filme aus Celluloid, ein hochbrennbares Material). Die eiserne Brandschutz - Klappen vor den Projektionslöchern zum Zuschauerraum schlossen sich allerdings 17:55
DocScrutinizer05sofort, sodass mit Ausnahme des Aufleuchtens einer Stichflamme vom Publikum kaum etwas bemerkt wurde. Die Kinobesucher konnten sich in aller Ruhe entfernen. Der Kinooperateur musste sich allerdings mit einem Sprung vom Balkon in den Garten retten.<<17:55
DocScrutinizer05http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:1988Askania_AP_XII.jpg  top you see the casssette, between head and hand the drop-down fire doors18:06
jbenedet1oah18:07
DocScrutinizer05a few more nice pictures: http://www.caboosebooks.net/node/9418:18
DocScrutinizer055 persons during King Kong premiere, 4 projector operators who must not leave their projector, and one winding-guy. 1 set of reels active, and 2 on reserve18:19
whitequarkyay digital18:21
DocScrutinizer05I now learned that celluloid films now are outlawed as explosives18:35
DocScrutinizer05may even self-ignite in locker18:35
whitequarkyep18:35
DocScrutinizer05I'm quite happy that I operated the machines but never with celluloid18:36
whitequarkI am amazed as to who looked at nitrocellulose and thought "right! should use this for data storage"18:36
DocScrutinizer05the term "data" wasn't known when they came up with that idea ;-)18:36
DocScrutinizer05if you really wanna know, I can dig it up for you18:37
DocScrutinizer05was in the late 1800s18:37
whitequarkdig what up?18:38
DocScrutinizer05first dramatic incident World Expo Paris 1897: 140 dead18:38
DocScrutinizer05who invented nitrocellulose movie film18:38
whitequarkI can open wikipedia :p18:39
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I can't find "official" sources for the 140 fatalities and tghe whole celluloid 'criticality' accident18:48
rozzinPing-pong balls are still made out of nitrocellulose, I think.19:37
rozzinNothing else  *quite* bounces the same.19:37
rozzinBut not beer-pong balls, apparently.19:38
rozzinI lit one of those on fire recentl; it did not burn well.19:38
rozzinIt was almost flame-retardant.19:38
astrDocScrutinizer05, hi'a hows op:neo900 doing? excited as ever! :D20:47
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# bin/omap34xx-boot-order20:48
DocScrutinizer05sys_boot[5:0]: 0x1020:48
DocScrutinizer05Boot order: OneNAND USB UART3 MMC1 -- 20:48
DocScrutinizer05;-)20:48
whitequarkwhoa20:50
astr?20:51
DocScrutinizer05that however is BS, since:20:52
DocScrutinizer050b10000  USB  UART3  MMC1  OneNAND; for SYS_BOOT5=1 aka peripheral boot20:52
DocScrutinizer05astr: I'm checking boot details of N90020:53
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: not Neo900 yet ;-)20:53
astroh, I wonder what your doing that for...20:53
DocScrutinizer05to understand how N900 boots, so we can stay maximum compatible. and maybe get it right same time :-)20:54
DocScrutinizer05the question came up 2 days ago when I discussed battery management&charging chip solutions for Neo900 with wpwrak20:55
DocScrutinizer05N900 feeds a charger chip signal to SYS_BOOT520:55
astroh20:55
astras for me I'm leaning _how_ much easily it will be to have a neo900 then my currently diy approach. just leaned that I can't upgrade Debian stable to testing with out a new kernel cus udev needs it. :/20:55
DocScrutinizer05but I just found out that it doesn't use that ball as SYS_BOOT5 when charger chip signal got connected20:56
larscthat took a while to track down, the system locks up if you do a read from the same periperhal from two different CPUs at almost the same time21:08
DocScrutinizer05surprise?21:16
larscit means my code is not broken, which of course is not a surprise ;)21:21
DocScrutinizer05(SYs_BOOT5) turns out it's a hw-level backdoor if ever the bootloader would get locked down23:06
DocScrutinizer05EE department made sure sw department won't lock down / tivoize that lovely piece of hw ;-D23:07
DocScrutinizer05and that's what I call a real hack23:10
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