#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2014-08-26

DocScrutinizer05HAH! skyscraper syndrome?00:21
DocScrutinizer05I thought your building has only 11 stories00:21
wpwraknaw, 14 floors of apartments, top floor is duplex, and if you count the terrace you'd have 16 in total02:13
whitequa1kDocScrutinizer05: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=195107:01
nicksydneywpwrak: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/WiFi-Serial-Transceiver-Module-w-ESP8266-p-1994.html07:06
nicksydneylowcost WiFi anyone http://espressif.com/en/products/esp8266/ :)07:11
nicksydneyin Taoboa the same board cost 20RM (~3.5bucks) http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1.w4004-6565671699.5.MSYwfV&id=4032822221307:11
ysionneauthat's cool to see a self calibrating RF :)07:19
ysionneauno factory calibration to do \o/07:19
eintopfwpwrak: http://www.golem.de/news/besitzer-leicht-verletzt-smartphone-in-hosentasche-explodiert-1408-108807.html07:55
wpwraknicksydney: wow, nice price. now it just has to be open for custom firmaware ... :)12:28
nicksydneywpwrak: according to the doc (in Chinese) and spec it communicate via serial so this means that even Arduino can communicate with it ?12:28
wpwrakyeah, but if you have a real operating system, you don't want a canned stack.12:30
nicksydneywhat you mean canned stack ?12:31
wpwraka tcp/ip stack that you can't change12:32
nicksydneyahh you referring to the fact that most probably you can't flash the IC with new firmware 12:32
nicksydneywpwrak: in that case this is suitable then http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/preorder-WRTnode-Open-Source-and-Mini-OpenWRT-Dev-Board-p-1980.html?cPath=19_2012:36
wpwraki'd expect that you can, technically. but nothing is documented. cpu architecture, register structure, flash procedure, etc.12:37
wpwrakyes, but then we're already on the more traditional price ranges ...12:37
wpwrak... and huge size as well12:37
nicksydneyyeah...there is one more IC that I found..hang on let me find out12:38
nicksydneyhttp://www.ofeixin.com/English/Product/Wifi%20Module/12:38
wpwrakthat's modules, with realtek chips. realtek are usually friendly, yes12:44
wpwrakthese modules could indeed be nice. lacks details, though.12:45
nicksydneythe realtek/mediatek chip is not easy to source...can't get it from big wholesaler...only can get from taobao12:47
wpwrakyes, this type of chips is always hard to find. problem is that the big distributors don't seem to like cn/tw chips12:56
DocScrutinizer05well, for some reason12:56
wpwraknaw, if you buy from the factory, you have your supply chain well enough under control12:57
DocScrutinizer05the only way to know what you got there on your palm is to use stuff like xray and excessive testing gear12:57
DocScrutinizer05well, then yes12:57
DocScrutinizer05sometimes12:58
wpwrakdigi-key and such could do that. then you're pretty safe. but now you're forced to buy from unknown resellers and get all the risks.12:58
DocScrutinizer05yep12:58
wpwraki'd view these preferences more an act of protectionism12:58
DocScrutinizer05another problem is mere payment12:58
wpwrakhmm ?12:59
DocScrutinizer05well, a million copycats in CN demonstrate every day that you got the loser part when it comes to enforcing your rights against someone in CN that ran a scam on you13:00
DocScrutinizer05heck, I'm pondering to *fly over there* just for some 5k of components13:01
wpwrakyou could still return home with a bag of bad parts ;-)13:02
DocScrutinizer05funny thing: seems the chinese feel all the same about their chances to get money from western countries for the goods they ship13:02
nicksydneysometimes the company is good and able to tell you which reseller to buy it from....that's what happened when I was looking for RA8875 and they send me the dsitributor contact to buy it from for overseas mkt13:02
wpwrakand yes, forget enforcement. but that's a cross-border problem anywhere13:02
DocScrutinizer05no, I have zilch problems to sue some idiot in italy or spain or UK when they sell me crap13:03
wpwrakmany companies are nice, though, especially chinese. if you complain, they don't just ignore you.13:04
DocScrutinizer05even in USA I guess I have good chances to get any scammer arrested13:04
wpwrak.it and .es are basically slave states to the .eu, where .de is one of the rulers ;-) (not the .de population, though. just your betters.)13:05
DocScrutinizer05anyway this international trading is a PITA13:06
wpwrak.us ... good luck :) you may succeed if you put enough effort into it, but i mean, how much do you really want to spend on revenge ?13:06
wpwrakyes13:06
DocScrutinizer05I evaluated option to get a 300 N900 devices from HK13:07
DocScrutinizer05ouch!13:07
DocScrutinizer05"send 30k EUR, then wait a 3 weeks for your 20 bricks in a cardboard box to arrive"13:08
DocScrutinizer05#s/20 bricks/<whatever junk they thought would be funny in there>/13:09
nicksydneyDocScrutinizer05: ticket to HK is not expensive nowadays :)13:09
DocScrutinizer05I know13:09
DocScrutinizer05but then what?13:09
wpwrakfirst find out where they keep them :) the company may be in .hk but their warehouse can be far far away13:09
DocScrutinizer05"Ders Sir, Madam! We soory inform our sales has suffered delay, please agrre on new meeting in 9 days"13:10
nicksydneyi have experience in textile before helping my uncle few years ago....we have to fly to China to look at the goods ourself and we stand there until they pack everything into the container and we went with them to the port until it is released to the custom and then we left :)13:10
nicksydneywpwrak: https://github.com/iabdalkader/openmv13:11
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: prepare meetings with >1 companies. if one of they bounces you, you just ignore them. chances are very slim that they'll do that to you out of spite.13:11
wpwraknicksydney: sounds like a good strategy :)13:12
DocScrutinizer05exactly the strategy I planned for the 300 N90013:12
nicksydneyHK is easier for shipping as their process are very streamlined compared to China and they are good in helping foreigners nowadays.....don't know how China is now !13:13
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you should also calculate costs with a generous safety margin. so if you get a batch of 100 bad devices, you can absorb the loss13:13
DocScrutinizer05yes, I'm aware of all that13:14
DocScrutinizer05it's however not as simple when we talk about high priced goods13:14
DocScrutinizer05or large quantities13:14
wpwraknicksydney: what i've heard, "complex". you also have a whole transport and customs agents mafia involved that probably doesn't want to you hang around13:15
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: get 100 units and indicate that you'll come back for more if you're happy13:15
wpwrakat some point you'll also have to worry about .de customs. e.g., beyond some value the paperwork may get a lot more intense13:16
DocScrutinizer05wow!! I just got an epic err "SPAM"(?)13:17
DocScrutinizer05actually beyond some point the paperwork tends to get more simple13:18
DocScrutinizer05you just do the usual things13:18
DocScrutinizer05(if you're not doing sth unusual)13:18
wpwrakwell, once you cross a certain threshold, it reaches peak complexity, but doesn't get much worse after that. correct :)13:19
DocScrutinizer05every day there arrive a few thousands of containers from HK, CN etc at sea harbors in Germany. Quite simple stuff to process them I guess13:19
wpwrakso it's a pain if you're near the threshold (however it's defined in .de), but after that, importing 10x the stuff is not significantly harder13:20
DocScrutinizer05but you can afford throwing 10 times the effort and expense at it, making it 10 times easier basically13:20
wpwrakno, not really. you don't really gain anything by putting 10 times the effort. you just have to do the bureaucratic procedure. but that's "single-threaded"13:22
DocScrutinizer05the maximum relative hassle been my "import" of a N900 donation, it took me 12.73EUR VAT payment and a whole afternoon proceeding to remote customs office and getting the N900 evaluated and cleared there13:22
wpwrakdid you have to contract a customs agent ?13:23
wpwrak(broker)13:23
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: nope. The point is: at a certain threshold not *I* do that anymore13:23
DocScrutinizer05no broker. That concept is unknown here in germany13:23
DocScrutinizer05at least on that level of sub-1000g private parcels13:24
wpwrakyes, exactly. the simple process is: you go to customs and do the formalities with them. the complex / general process: you do the (more involved) formalities with your customs broker who then goes to customs and repeats the stuff with them.13:24
DocScrutinizer05maybe there are broker services for containers13:24
wpwrakwell, maybe you can present the papers yourself. but you still need an intermediary.13:25
DocScrutinizer05nfc13:25
wpwrake.g., once i brought a few pcs for a demo at a conference from .ch to .de13:25
DocScrutinizer05oooh, THAT is hassle13:26
DocScrutinizer05you don't want to import them, just bring them in temporarily13:26
DocScrutinizer05I know that from 1984 when we moved a DELCOM256 video wall computer and monitors to Strasbourg. Took us 4h at frontier to clear the papers13:27
wpwrakfor the "temporary import", i had to go to a trading/brokerage (dunno the exact term) company in .ch, get them to prepare the paperwork, then present it on entry, and on exit (not to the friedly guy who asks you if you have something to declare but in a back office, with a wait)13:27
wpwrakyeah, that sort :)13:27
wpwrakfor large-scale import/export it's similar13:27
nicksydneywpwrak: http://vonger.cn/13:28
DocScrutinizer05hmmm, the patent is from 1988???13:28
DocScrutinizer05http://www.google.com/patents/US473477913:29
DocScrutinizer05oops, it's not about DELCOM-256, it just mentions it13:30
DocScrutinizer05NMT was a funny time in my professional career13:31
wpwrakwhitequa1k: this has tldr potential :) he seems to be heading in the direction of "what's unfamiliar and implicitly adverse makes us uncomfortable", isn't he ?13:31
DocScrutinizer05been there before: http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2013-04-12.log.html#t17:3613:34
DocScrutinizer05(large scale import) 300 units don't usually qualify for that (unless it's 300 cars or sth like that)13:36
DocScrutinizer05300 N900 devices for sure are exactly in between, where you can ruin yourself when shit hits the fan, but not large enaough yet to get into "the comfort zone of large scale"13:37
DocScrutinizer05maybe I could order door-to-door service from seller ;-P13:38
DocScrutinizer05let *them* fly here, instead of me flying to CN13:39
whitequa1kwpwrak: no, not at all13:39
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: dream on ! ;-)13:39
DocScrutinizer05I know African dope dealers offer such service ;-P13:40
whitequa1ktl;dr could be something like "we can only sensibly define consciousness as a process participating in the arrow of time"13:40
whitequa1ki.e. an "uploaded" mind is not actually conscious13:40
wpwrakyou mean uploaded + stored, but not "running" ?13:41
DocScrutinizer05I stopped reading 5 words after the big red warning13:41
DocScrutinizer05tl;dr especially for a joke 13:41
whitequa1kDocScrutinizer05: it's not a joke.13:42
whitequa1kthe warning is for excessively pedantic people who want everything defined with 100% rigor13:42
DocScrutinizer05then i'm sorry for the guy, he managed to waste my and his time13:43
whitequa1kthe text is serious and way more interesting than some of the supposedly scientific material on topic (e.g. IIT)13:43
whitequa1kwpwrak: exactly for "running"13:43
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: you may find this more pleasant reading :) http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/42/42501/1.html13:46
DocScrutinizer05"Fetrons" LOL13:52
DocScrutinizer05http://www.philipstorr.id.au/radio/eleven/fetron.htm13:52
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