#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2014-08-10

Luke-Jrwpwrak: does nouveau actually make a decent GPU out of nvidia stuff? O.o00:44
wpwrakLuke-Jr: sufficient for what i need. i don't really care about 3D. the occasional STL also renders fast enough in software. but i need my triple-head.00:49
Luke-JrI see.02:02
Luke-JrI had the unfortunate realisation recently that Linux is only stable for OpenGL on older GPUs :/02:03
Luke-Jrboth my Intel Haswell and AMD Radeon 7xxx are unstable02:03
Luke-Jrwhereas my previous Sandy Bridge, and before that Radeon (pre-HD) 9200 were stable02:04
mthwolfspraul: git commit notification is broken:03:58
mthremote: PHP Fatal error:  Call to undefined function expect_popen() in /srv/irc/send_irc_lines.php on line 803:58
mththe commit itself went through though, so it's not urgent03:58
wolfspraulmth: excellent feedback, thank you! I installed libexpect-php5, let's see whether it's better now (haven't tested, just waiting)08:29
mthhow long ago? I pushed some changes 2-3 minutes ago and it didn't work yet then08:30
wolfspraulhmm08:32
wolfsprauljust before my post08:32
wolfspraulwe may have crossed each other by seconds though, so let's wait for the next one08:32
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Created separate subclasses for output and off-screen surfaces (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/4bd1c7911:29
mthwolfspraul: :)11:29
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ircstat/ML: update for 2014-07 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/29ac55312:22
wpwrakyes, works :)12:22
whitequarkLuke-Jr: huh? Ivy Bridge and GF117M work perfectly for me12:23
qi-bot[commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Removed most uses of naked Surface pointers (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/60183e512:32
ysionneauwhitequark: what do you mean by "decoy law" ?15:05
whitequarkysionneau: a law to distract public from some other, worse law15:06
ysionneauwow15:06
ysionneauso in the end the law about giving passport info to connect to public wifi is dropped?15:06
ysionneau(sorry I could not read your link15:07
ysionneau)15:07
whitequarkyes, or rather, transformed into a law about personal information retention15:07
whitequarkfor half a year or so15:07
whitequarkthat happens like every time you hear about some outrageous law.15:07
ysionneauand what was the worse law?15:07
whitequarkthe SORM real-time intelligence gathering system to be integrated with all social networks operating in RU15:08
ysionneauwow, is it some DPI stuff thats gathering all metadata?15:08
whitequarkno15:08
whitequarkit means that the social networks must themselves provide all the data the government requests15:09
ysionneauak ok15:09
ysionneaudirect access to their database15:09
whitequarkthere's no need to subvert https and so on, because it works at the endpoint15:09
whitequarksorta15:09
whitequarkand I bet they will use it for grep for keywords like "protest".15:09
ysionneauso you don't see live tchat for instance but you can read the logs afterward15:09
whitequarkno, you do see live chat, that's the whole point of SORM15:09
whitequarkearlier generations of SORM are basically the lawful intercept interface for cellular and landline15:10
whitequarkso now they extend this to social networks15:10
ysionneauwow ok15:10
ysionneauso they access to database data *and* do live intercept15:10
ysionneaucrazy :(15:10
ysionneauI guess USA is doing the same though15:10
whitequarkwell15:11
whitequarkit's hard to say15:11
whitequarkthe Snowden documents said "yes", but NSA was using essentially illegal methods, i.e. fiber optic interception15:12
whitequarksince then Google and others have started treating it as an adversary, and that probably doesn't work15:12
whitequarkbut we wouldn't know whether there are some secret court orders equivalent to what happens in RU, for some times15:12
ysionneauat least, as I understood, it is mandatory for US companies (google, amazon, facebook etc) to allow access to authorities to their database15:13
ysionneauI guess that for that to be lawful it must be during an investigation15:14
ysionneauprosecution or something15:14
ysionneaubut they can ask for access or for informations15:14
whitequarkyes, but that's supposed to happen like this: government submits a subpoena, company X responds with data15:15
whitequarkthis is not supposed to give the government direct access to database15:15
whitequarkand I think not live intercept too15:16
ysionneauyes ok agreed15:16
kyakhow about that: company X reads all data, finds suspicious activity and reports it to the government?15:57
whitequarkhm?15:57
kyakoh, that already happened, didn't it?15:57
whitequarkwhat are you talking about?15:57
kyakhttp://habrahabr.ru/post/232359/15:58
kyakabout this15:58
kyaki'm just wondering when are you going to stop talking about "this contry"15:58
kyakhave a look around, see the same shit everywhere, and relax15:59
whitequarkkyak: oh fuck off, the fact that everyone does something doesn't mean that doing it is right15:59
kyakyeah, but your endless rants &16:00
whitequark /ignore or /part.16:00
kyaki've chosen the first one (and i'm not talking about IRC). It seems that you're biasing to the second options, good :)16:03
kyaki'm talking about "this country", just in case..16:03
whitequarkit's not like my endless rants are going to stop just because I move, because, as you aptly noticed, the same shit is everywhere16:04
kyakthat's quite true, i suppose16:04
kyakso you'll be ranting about country's Y bitch government16:05
DocScrutinizer51kyak seems to be pretty touchy in general when somenody critizises "his country"16:07
kyakno, more when someone talks trash16:12
whitequarkI don't exactly consider Google a model internet company16:12
sb0+116:13
whitequarkso I don't know what your point is.16:13
DocScrutinizer51whitequark: kyak's point is he owns ultimate truth16:14
kyakah fuck it.16:15
whitequarkkyak: if you think that a legislative process where Duma (or congress, for that matter) deliberately introduces decoy laws to divert public attention from some unconstitutional law they're trying to pass in meantime is a-ok16:16
whitequarkI don't know what to say to you16:16
DocScrutinizer51and when tou do, you of course don't even bother to question if what you got is what been said16:16
whitequarkexactly who of those three hundred pigfuckers represents *me*? I'll answer, zero16:19
kyakwhitequark: yeah, that's pretty ok. Because even if every individual himself is smart, the large group of individuals, or society, is not16:19
whitequarkshould I remind you who is supposed to be a public servant?16:20
whitequarkand not the other way around16:20
kyaki agree with your last point16:20
kyakand your very last point :)16:20
kyakbut it doesn't change the fact that society needs to be controllable16:21
kyakeven if it's controlled by 300 pigs16:21
whitequarkI don't think that is necessarily true16:21
kyakor 1 pig, for what atters16:22
DocScrutinizer51now *I* smell rubbish being told16:22
whitequarkbut even *if* what you say is true, the legislative process I'm speaking about is, simply, lying to those you are supposed to serve16:23
whitequarkit is an attempt to break the feedback loop that should keep them in check16:23
whitequarkor are you advocating for absolute monarchy?16:23
kyakhm, what feedback loop? Are we at the point of "shared knowledge" between people?16:24
kyakLike, the society is able to "collect" "coordinated" feedback and pass it back to legislation?16:25
whitequarkyes. yes, it does.16:25
kyakoh, ok.. talk about it with some redneck from CHelyabinsk16:26
kyakhe will have many ideas how to improve the state16:26
whitequarkand I would16:27
kyakthe monarchy.. not necessarilly, if responsibility is clearly defined16:27
DocScrutinizer51ok now this is definitely TOO much, particularly for somebody bashing others for 'talking bullshit'16:28
whitequarkDocScrutinizer51: change of topic. I made https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BunwbGSCQAAOKje.jpg:large yesterday16:35
DocScrutinizer51sorry, roaming on phone16:36
whitequarkaww16:36
DocScrutinizer51is it worth the load time and data fees to try and open it on a 3" screen?16:37
whitequarkit's 117K16:37
whitequarkit's a picture of a companion cube I tried to machine out of Al16:37
DocScrutinizer51loading16:37
whitequarkit kinda went poor16:38
DocScrutinizer51loading16:38
MSG541[16:39:39] <DocScrutinizer51> aborting that16:39
whitequarkokay16:40
DocScrutinizer51think it got the complete pic at least16:40
DocScrutinizer51nice16:40
whitequarkI really shouldn't have used X/Y finish pass on this geometry16:40
whitequarkshould have went with only waterline and pencil16:41
whitequarkand I don't understand one thing mainly, I have a script that measures the cube with a probe16:41
whitequarkit says the cube is 26 by 27.2mm, but in reality it is 24 by 24 mm16:41
whitequarkand I can't find the error anywhere: mechanics, electronics, software16:41
whitequarkI also think the coordinates of holes I drill in PCBs are off, but not by a whole two millimeters! so even when I may see distortion, it doesn't match what I measure16:42
whitequarkDocScrutinizer51: based on that cube, I can 100% rule out missing steps on either slow or rapid movements16:43
whitequarkthat would absolutely butcher the waterline pass16:43
whitequarkbut all the "layers" align with each other16:43
fmeerkoetterI didn't fully grok http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN - is it currently possible to buy ATUSB devices? 17:56
wpwrakfmeerkoetter: unfortunately not. the units produced by tuxbrain sold out.18:58
wpwrakbut maybe check on the mailing list. if you're looking for a small number, maybe someone still has some18:59
fmeerkoetterwpwrak: thanks19:13
fmeerkoetterwpwrak: do you have an idea about other hardware options? preferably attached over USB?19:14
eintopffmeerkoetter: you are the guy on linux-zigbee-devel?19:17
eintopfah19:18
fmeerkoettereintopf: yes :-)19:18
eintopfthere exist a new one, but this is maybe too new19:19
wpwrakfmeerkoetter: there are a few pointers in this post, though none look very promising: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2014-April/010593.html19:19
eintopfhttp://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#linux-wpan19:19
eintopfi need to update the sf site19:19
fmeerkoetteri am trying to wrap my head around the whole 802.14.5/6lowpan/coap/mqtt thing by just getting me feet wet.19:19
fmeerkoetterwpwrak, eintopf: thanks19:19
eintopfwpwrak: maybe we can do something really cool... implement serial v2 protocol for contiki devices19:20
wpwrakif you're able to make circuits, you could of course make your own atusb. all the design files are open ...19:20
wpwrakeintopf: blargh ;-)19:21
eintopfwpwrak: this will increase the users of this stack, i am really sure19:21
eintopfmaybe I can do this at my university19:21
fmeerkoetterhmm, perhaps I should try to go with one of the SPI-attached devices for which i saw a driver in mainline linux19:22
fmeerkoetter?19:22
eintopfbut I don't know if contiki accept an app mainline which is for not using contiki anymore :)19:22
eintopffmeerkoetter: best supported driver is at86rf23019:23
eintopfshould work for all at86rf2xx chips :/19:23
fmeerkoettereintopf: hmm, mouser, digikey and farnell tell me its out of stock :-/19:25
eintopf:o19:25
eintopfthey putting to much 802.15.4 chips into things...19:26
fmeerkoettersounds like the intended use case ;-)19:26
fmeerkoetterputting it into "things"19:26
eintopffmeerkoetter: but the stack implementation is currently "experimental" I don't want to make you hope that you can do all use cases19:29
fmeerkoettereintopf: which stack? the 802.15.4 or the 6lowpan side?19:32
eintopfboth19:33
fmeerkoetter:-)19:33
eintopfif you want to use libcoap in userspace, maybe you need this http://git.pengutronix.de/?p=ptxdist.git;a=tree;f=patches/libcoap-4.1.119:34
eintopfmakes the libcoap more friendly for linux system install. They doing crazy buildsystem things there19:35
eintopfand they don't want my patches19:35
eintopfhttp://git.pengutronix.de/?p=ptxdist.git;a=blob;f=patches/libcoap-4.1.1/0004-libcoap-add-LIBCOAP_-prefix-to-HAVE_-in-headers.patch19:36
eintopfthey put HAVE_XXX from autoconf in API headers19:36
eintopfthat's purely unusable19:36
fmeerkoetter*meh*19:36
eintopfI have insert a maintainable workaround for this19:38
whitequarkit occured to me I could put a ballpoint pen into my CNC mill. https://i.imgur.com/XsOYPIJ.jpg20:23
rohhrhr20:29
whitequarkthe sounds the steppers produce are hideous though20:29
rohnice mill20:31
whitequarkroh: why nice?20:31
whitequarkI was actually doing a test to figure out why exactly is there a distortion that messes up my PCBs20:32
whitequarkit seems I *at least* don't have missing steps20:32
rohwhitequark: cable guides are there and look fine20:37
rohthats usually a sign of a non-dead-cheap-low-end device ;)20:38
whitequarkroh: ooooh, I see20:38
rohand you got a real t-nut table for clamping stuff down...20:38
whitequarkroh: you have really low expectation20:38
rohthe spindle looks like some er16 ?20:38
whitequarkER11 collets20:39
rohwhitequark: i've seen too many low end devices propably ;)20:39
rohah. so small. well.. i guess its more rpm then?20:39
whitequarkit's 200W20:39
whitequarkand up to 18krpm20:39
rohwhat sw toolchain do you use?20:39
whitequarkEMC2 for control20:40
rohour issue is the stl/model -> gcode for emc2 step... no nice 'readymade' software yet20:40
whitequarkfor generation: 1) handwritten gcode (EMC2 allows pretty advanced stuff like loops and procedures), 2) inkscape's gcodetools 3) eagle pcb-gcode20:40
rohwe have emc2 too :) .. on a old 8.04 ubuntu20:40
whitequarkI also used meshcam for https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BunwbGSCQAAOKje.jpg:large20:40
whitequarkroh: I have some unfinished code for a FOSS CAM processor that can do constant TEA20:41
rohwe played around with heekscad and heekscam some time ago20:41
whitequarkyep, played with it too20:41
whitequarkheekscad is even less usable than freecad, which is an impressive feat20:42
whitequarkno Ctrl+Z, random crashes, randomly doesn't work20:42
rohand there are 'parts' of a cam suite flying around in lib form. whats missing is a comprehensive tool to 'load model, configure mill, tools and process, render gcode'20:42
whitequarkroh: I've seen these 'parts'20:42
whitequarkyou probably mean libarea20:42
whitequarkthat's what I was going to base my code on20:42
rohalso, yes. also the others heekscam uses20:42
whitequarkI'll probably have more time for that once I relocate20:43
whitequarkroh: any advice for milling aluminium on tiny mills?20:44
whitequarkI have really horrible tool chatter issues20:44
whitequarkonce I sat there for a hour and my eyes hurt for a day (!)20:44
whitequarkTHAT is how bad it is20:44
whitequarkears*20:44
rohlibkurve, actp....20:44
whitequarkroh: last time I checked, it doesn't actually use libkurve or actp (?)20:45
whitequarkI mean, it simply doesn't refer to them from generated python script20:45
whitequarkseemed weird to me20:45
rohhmmm.. cool it with 50/50 destilled water/alcohol20:45
rohor pressured air and some cutting oil mist20:45
whitequarkas far as I understand, it slices the model inside heekscad and then puts the slices inside python code20:45
whitequarkroh: hm, I have a thing set up that puts a stream of liquid there, yes20:46
whitequarkwas thinking of trying it next20:46
rohwhitequark: it uses different libs depending on the 'things' you use20:46
whitequarkroh: the problem is my fixture is made out of wood, so it warps20:46
rohpocket vs waterline etc20:46
roheek20:46
whitequarkyes.20:46
rohyep.. building proper fixtures is half the job20:46
whitequarkI already found it out, yeah, the hard way :D20:46
rohi learned that the hard way...20:46
Luke-Jrwhitequark: Ivy Bridge is not Haswell20:46
roh:)20:46
whitequarkLuke-Jr: if Ivy Bridge is your definition of "old", I have news for you ;D20:47
Luke-JrGF117M is nvideous. wpwrak implied nouveau is only sufficient for 2D20:47
rohwhitequark: heekscam does 'write a python script' which you then execute, and parse back the resulting gcode to some xml intermediate and then display it as lines20:47
whitequarkroh: I think it actually puts out the file with lines along with the gcode20:48
rohthe executing uses the libs via their python interfaces (the libs are c++)20:48
whitequarkmaybe we're talking about different versions?20:48
rohwhitequark: it didnt when i built packages some years ago20:48
rohmaybe20:48
rohthe xml was also a 'hidden' temp file20:49
wpwrakLuke-Jr: i didn't say that. it's just that i don't really care about 3D. so i don't even know how good nouveau is at it :)20:51
Luke-Jrwpwrak: I see.20:51
whitequarkroh: why alcohol and not water?20:52
whitequarkis there any difference?20:52
rohwhitequark: surface tension20:52
whitequarkoh20:52
whitequarkthink water+surfactant would work?20:53
whitequarktap water is cheaper than vodka20:53
rohand 50/50 so make it less flammable20:53
rohi dunno all the details.. but the short version is: you dont want to put just water on there because of rust20:53
whitequarkoh, but my frame is made out of Al20:53
whitequarkand I replaced the screws with stainless steel ones20:53
rohbut there are whole sections in books about cooling when milling. flood, mist and all the coolants and their mixes20:54
whitequarkI've seen some book from 192020:54
whitequarkit recommended using milk (!!)20:54
whitequarkamong other things20:54
rohmilling milk is not milk20:54
rohits a special mix of oils and some stuff to make oil thinnable by water20:55
whitequarkoh20:55
whitequarkthat would explain a few things20:55
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