#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2014-06-09

DocScrutinizer05cast steel (is this the name for Grauguss?) has >2% carbon, thus it isn't supposed to rust, aiui. Any rsuting probably will stop as soon as the carbon concentrates on the surface... unless you remove that "passivation coat", just like with EloxAl where you're NOT supposed to remove the coating or a new one has to build up00:06
DocScrutinizer05( wild guessing here ^^^ )00:08
DocScrutinizer05wiki just says "usually doesn't rust unless you damage the coating"00:09
DocScrutinizer05and since they are not talking about a particular object that has a dedicated coating of whatever, done by the one who built it... This is about that type of steel at large00:10
whitequarkhm, read up some stuff on it00:12
whitequarkapparently just cast iron rusts at about the same rate, .1mm/year, but since stuff you made out of it is thicker, it's not as noticeable00:12
DocScrutinizer05>>Gusseisenteile mit unverletzter Gusshaut sind besser korrosionsbeständig als Stahl<<00:12
whitequarkHOWEVER, if you don't remove the crust that's left after casting, that crust, if not damaged, somewhat delays rusting00:12
DocScrutinizer05exact translation :-)00:13
wpwrakwell, i know that the pipes we have around here rust slowly and that's what everyone expects them to do. alas, there's some weakness in implementing suitable maintenance protocols ... (it could always fix it so far, so we would we need to replace it ? naw, too expensive.)00:21
wpwrak#s/it could/we could/00:22
wpwrakbleh. orthography is screwed up. still some residual effects from all the excitement :)00:23
wpwrakah, the fun bit: coming tuesday, there will be a reunion of the apartment owners plus the building administration (schedules already a while ago, to discuss the budget). i expect it to get rather entertaining this time, given recent events.00:25
wpwrakwe'll see. back when there was a major conflict over the previous administration (some people tried a bit of a smear campaign, but the administrator prevailed - but resigned a few years later since the work got too much for her (she's already some 80+, i think)), it did come to blows at one of the many sessions we had until things were settled.00:30
whitequarkwow, I thought I was joking00:30
whitequarkalthough this just makes it all better. administration + entertainment, two in one00:31
wpwrakyeah, it can get rather lively :)00:31
DocScrutinizer05will you waer your rugby outfit? :-)02:24
DocScrutinizer05wait, there been that dude with his "unbreakable" suit, who wrestled with grisly bears and alligators and whatnot, and smashed into driving cars etc to prove his suit actually worked02:27
DocScrutinizer05maybe the right dresscode for such event?02:27
wpwraki wonder whether i should install a camera somewhere :)02:49
larsc14% hummidity here12:36
DocScrutinizer05green around that sensor12:40
DocScrutinizer05but look at the diff between outside and indoors. Guess how tempted I am to open the window - no AC here12:42
larscit's 30 degrees inside here...12:46
larscthe down side of top floor appartments12:46
whitequarkwow, looked up specs on this machine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_qHR_H_2cg&feature=youtu.be12:56
whitequarkthey claim 0.5µm accuracy / 2µm repeat positioning accuracy12:56
sb0_total porn13:05
paul_boddieSomething for N900 fans and machining enthusiasts: https://gitorious.org/fremantle-backcover-replacement13:08
whitequarkpaul_boddie: I wonder what is it made of13:14
DocScrutinizer05that's the Alu backcover of Estel_13:19
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: (CTX gamma 2000 TC) there's just one really huge problem with this thing: _where_ do you place it in your flat? ;-P13:20
paul_boddieYes, it's the notorious backcover, but I guess other materials might be possible. Nice that they shared the design, though.13:22
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: no, that is actually not a problem13:24
whitequarkbecause if I actually have enough money to buy *that*, I could as well buy a few flats in Moscow or in London or NY13:24
DocScrutinizer05well he had to, after he bashed me and Nik for not instantly and unconditionaly sharing Neo900 _complete_^4 files and data13:25
DocScrutinizer05sombebody called him out on it for his own project idling in a limbo since a year or longer13:25
DocScrutinizer05paul_boddie: ^^^13:26
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: you spoiled it :-P13:26
larschm, down to 5%, that's pretty dry13:27
DocScrutinizer05anyway now you have an idea what CNC _really_ means ;-) And still there's soooo much this thing can NOT do. Let's start with all sorts of flasks etc13:27
DocScrutinizer05seems a metal sintering / welding 3D printer sometimes is clearly the more versatile alternative13:30
wpwrakwhitequark: "look m'am, no coolant !" :)13:31
DocScrutinizer05yeah, quite interesting13:32
wpwrakand i don't need their machine. i'd be happy enough to just have their tool changer :)13:33
DocScrutinizer05I guess they used the right steel (easy cut) for their object to build, so they could forget about that nasty ugly messy cooling which evidently would have spoiled their cool video presentation. Nobody is interested in the machine's capabilities to squirt some cooling liquid on that stuff13:34
DocScrutinizer05the tool changer is almost shocking, yeah. Must be hundreds of tools13:34
whitequarkI checked the datasheet13:35
DocScrutinizer05nope, for sure more, 48 seem to be less than the ones I *seen* moving by on that endless tape13:37
wpwrakmaybe 48 is the basic model :)13:37
whitequark24 is the basic one. 48 is the chain variant13:37
whitequarkwhich we see13:37
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05 can find the pdf himself, I already closed it13:37
DocScrutinizer05maybe 48 is the number of tools _used_ in that video ;-)13:38
wpwrakpaul_boddie: is there a picture of it anywhere ?13:39
whitequarkwpwrak: in that thread13:39
wpwraki just see dwg and ngc, no image13:40
DocScrutinizer05I think I *see* more than 48 here13:40
wpwrakno, i mean paul's link. n900 backcover.13:41
wpwrak(3d printing) i think we'll see a big change with stereo lithography. it's still not quite established in the low-cost segment, but there are many people/companies working on it.13:52
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: search in tmo for alu backcover13:59
DocScrutinizer05there's a thread started by Estel about it13:59
DocScrutinizer05for your convenience: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=8392814:00
DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/search.php?searchid=16586444 might help14:04
wpwrakwell, did he ever actually make it ? and post a picture ?14:05
wpwrakthe beginning of the thread talks about what it'll be like. at the end, there's nothing either. the whole thread is very long.14:05
wpwrakseems that he has no fab capabilities himself, not even for prototyping ?14:06
wpwrakthat sounds like a bumpy approach ;) (i always find that i need to do lots of tweaks, so for one design i like, i make several attempts that just don't work. even if it's something much simpler than that.)14:07
DocScrutinizer05there's a picture _somewhere_, I've seen it. And he talks about his own CNC machine somewhere in this thread14:09
DocScrutinizer05but honestly I don't like to talk about anything estel-related14:10
DocScrutinizer05and honestly - WHO the HECK needs a metal case with extended battery capabilities, to connect that to external antennas then? Doesn't sound exactly portable/mobile anyway, which _totally_ defeats the purpose of battery as well as whole device14:15
whitequarkmaybe he could mill a metal mould and then make an extruded case14:16
DocScrutinizer05he lightly talks about the hirose U-FLplugs on internal cables and the RP-SMA on outside, conveniently neglecting that the internal antennas are totally obsolete then, both by the U-FL plug switching off antenna as well as the case itself totally shielding antennas14:18
wpwrakyeah, i realize the limitations of having a metal case :) i'm more curious about the machining14:18
DocScrutinizer05I doubt you will enjoy reading details about it14:36
DocScrutinizer05estel is clearly a troll and a pita, and I doubt he has much to contribute to the topic CNC that you didn't know 20 years ago already14:37
DocScrutinizer05and I don't like to talk about him, since I have a hard time not going personal when I do14:38
DocScrutinizer05after all that guy has a personal vendetta against me since 2 years at least14:39
DocScrutinizer05(I'm not the only one enjoying that honor)14:39
DocScrutinizer05anyway for now he's banned14:42
DocScrutinizer05he worked hard to achieve that, but he obviously been wildly determined to earn another ban (not his first one)14:44
DocScrutinizer05I discourage you to answer his posts or ask questions on anything he ever posted14:45
paul_boddiewpwrak: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1427901&postcount=36914:46
DocScrutinizer05he inevitably will start to bitch at you as well, or otherwise troll Neo900 project once more14:46
DocScrutinizer05once he gets unbanned, that is14:46
paul_boddieAnyway, I only brought it up because maybe you get the benefit of this little escapade regardless of who started it. ;-)14:48
wpwrakpaul_boddie: thanks !14:51
DocScrutinizer05seen the convenient ranting in this post you linked? and the link to http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1427271&postcount=111 on which he actually received infraction points from me, for again badmouthing me and particularly for doing this by stating lies resp unsupported assertions14:51
wpwraklooks pretty nice. smooth round curves, complex details14:53
DocScrutinizer05sure, but hey, we could do that, no?14:53
DocScrutinizer05"move on, nothing to see here!"14:53
wpwrakmaybe he's just bored. throw him a bone every now and then, and he'll happily work is arse off for you ;-)14:54
wpwrak(we can do it) would depend on how much manual work went into this. if it came out of the machine like that, i couldn't do it14:54
wpwraknote that this piece has been worked on from both sides. and wall thickness looks pretty constant. so whoever did the milling has good equipment.14:56
wpwrakah, backcover_* is also estel. your banning only seems to make him hide better ;-) 14:57
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: (bone) nope, doesn't work14:58
DocScrutinizer05please get this right: it's NOT *my* banning. Bans are triggered by vBulletin when somebody earns enough infraction points15:00
DocScrutinizer05there are pretty clear rules about (even the amount of) infraction points moderators are _supposed_ to hand out for misbehavior15:00
DocScrutinizer05trolling is one reason, personal insult another, no matter who gets insulted and who insults15:02
DocScrutinizer05trolling earns 15 points iirc, insult 20. System ban kicks in at 30. You can't hand out multiple infraction penalties at same post. So he at least had a second post where he earned the remaining points to trip the magic 3015:04
DocScrutinizer05and his last ban which got "amnestied" it seems, been just a some 4 weeks ago, for very identical misbehavior15:06
DocScrutinizer05last ban not been caused by me but also was for trolling Neo900 project15:07
wpwrakah well, that maemo gang is a funny crowd. they have a council, a scoring system in their forum, ... you must have snatched up quite some politicians on the way ;-)15:08
DocScrutinizer05he got muted for ~1 week, returned thanks to super mod obviously amnestied him, and instantly continued same badmouthing and trolling15:08
DocScrutinizer05huh? I guess that scoring system is pretty much global standard for vBulletin fora15:08
DocScrutinizer05and who else is going to take care about all the friggin administrative tasks if not council?15:09
DocScrutinizer05thus council seems not inspired by politics but rather by management15:10
wpwrakthe greatest achievement of the devil was to convince people that he didn't exist.15:10
wpwrakthe greatest achievement of politicians was to convince people they need them ;-)15:11
DocScrutinizer05you gotta know, eh?15:11
wpwrakoh, we have a vice president getting grilled in court over some rather shady dealings this very moment :)15:11
DocScrutinizer05I didn't think of third party hearsay15:12
wpwrakand apparently, the pope say fit to express his best wishes for the judge in charge of this15:12
Action: DocScrutinizer05 imagines wpwrak sitting at home, sending mails and other memos, and laughing at Machiavelli15:13
wpwrak(probably remembering the fate of  falcone and borsellino)15:13
wpwraki like Machiavelli's no-nonsense style :)15:14
DocScrutinizer05probably you also invented the guy who allegedly wrote Illuminatus15:16
wpwrakno, i took reading suggestions from that book. like "Coup d'Etat - A practical handbook". i though they had just invented this, but no, it does exist :)15:19
Action: DocScrutinizer05 tries a few anagram transforms between "Werner Almesberger" and "R. A. Wilson" and/or "Robert Shea"15:20
wpwrakyoudo me to much honor :)15:20
DocScrutinizer05I just wonder about the horrible amount of influence from politics that resulted in OM having a boss and even departments with their own department leaders and assigned tasks15:22
DocScrutinizer05can't have been as much as in maemo, since at least no *elections* (eeeew! the worst thing politics ever invented) in OM, ever15:24
DocScrutinizer05but clearly Nokia establishing/agreeing on a councl been one move that for sure qualifies for Machiavelli award, there at least you're absolutely right15:26
DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council#Council_work read this and adore the the (hidden, true) plot/motivation behind it15:28
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: could you please share your ideas about better alternatives to moderation of any sorts (incl penalties and even banning of poisonous members) for the usual public forum? I'm absolutely sure there are a ~10k people that would love to hear about any better alternative, first of them being the moderators who generally hate their job15:34
DocScrutinizer05NB I got shanghaied for council as well as for moderation of the Neo900 subforum (the latter really came by surprise and I still wonder why tmo admin decided to do this)15:36
DocScrutinizer05anyway I'm really happy my definitely last term in council will end in 4 weeks the latest15:37
DocScrutinizer05and I'd *love* to see *you* applying for moderation of neo900 subforum, so I could rsign from that task as well15:38
DocScrutinizer05resign even15:39
DocScrutinizer05alas I'm afraid even when you would apply, the tmo admin/super-mod will not even consider15:40
DocScrutinizer05he also rejected to make dos1 a mod for that forum, despite me pushing for it15:40
DocScrutinizer05now THATS politics15:41
wpwrakoh, so this structure came from nokia. now it begins to make sense ...15:41
wpwrakfor moderation, i'd just remove the clearly illegal stuff. ignore trolling and insults. like anyone else should. then the trolls and insulters go away on their own.15:42
DocScrutinizer05haha, yeah. IF _everybody_ would ignore them15:43
wpwrakyou can just sit them out. your anger is their reward. so the harder you seem to work to "control" them, the happier they are15:43
DocScrutinizer05no, won't fly, it's been tried on tmo a bazillion times15:43
wpwrak(dos1) i'd call this luck, for him ;-)15:44
DocScrutinizer05and you seem to suffer a misconception here - moderation and anger are completely unrelated15:45
DocScrutinizer05moderation means: move around posts, create new threads for posts OT in another thread, and occasionally hand out infraction points according to a clear set of rules which definitely do NOT include the word "anger" anywhere15:48
DocScrutinizer05and beware of "remove the clearly illegal stuff" since that will instantly start a shitstorm about your "obviously totally perverted idea of what's illegal", your censorship and dictatorship and generally about wtf you are mod at all15:50
paul_boddieI'm still surprised that people still congregate around Nokia-initiated services: did no-one notice that Nokia doesn't hand out shiny gadgets any more?15:52
paul_boddieThen again, maybe that's the point of keeping some of these things around.15:52
DocScrutinizer05sounds like "I'm still surprised that anybody still uses linux. Didn't they notice slackware got abandoned?"15:54
paul_boddieWell, my impression was that Nokia attracted people who wanted gadgets to play with, but the intended community didn't really give the expected benefits.15:56
paul_boddieI mean how many people picked up multiple N-series models for free and what was the effect of these developer give-aways?15:57
DocScrutinizer05no matter if that's correct or not, how would it have any relevance for somebody using *.maemo.org services, which btw are virtually completely owned by the community since 18 months?15:58
paul_boddieWell, I was just commenting on the apparent shark tank nature of the whole thing. Doesn't sound like a bunch of people focused on doing new and genuinely interesting stuff in general.15:59
DocScrutinizer05maybe that's exactly like #ubuntu then?16:00
DocScrutinizer05maemo isn't a fenced protected sandbox playground for some developers16:01
DocScrutinizer05maemo is a linux distro based largely on debian and 95% of core system FOSS, and it doesn't differ much to the "ecosystem" of ubuntu or debian or gentoo or younameit16:03
DocScrutinizer05compare the maemo "shark tank2 to that of debian and ubuntu, you won't notice many differences16:04
paul_boddieSure, go to various forums and you can feel the heat of the flaming, regardless of what it's about.16:05
DocScrutinizer05how much shark tank is even #openmoko-cdevel?16:05
paul_boddiePersonally, cutting down on the forums with a high proportion of squabbling participants was one of the best things I ever did.16:06
paul_boddieYou realise that you won't miss anything important or insightful anyway. A bit like quitting Facebook.16:07
DocScrutinizer05yeah, and since everybody with a brain tends to think similar, forums need a tight moderation to keep them alive. Particularly when your community is largely based on said forum16:07
DocScrutinizer05tmo is ~90% of maemo's knowledge base16:08
DocScrutinizer05google for an arbitrary problem related to maemo OS, and odds are your first 5 hits are linking to tmo16:08
paul_boddieAnyway, I just have to wonder what the future of that place is, what with your descriptions of the politics. Again, a lot of people seemed to let Nokia "take care" of rather too much, community-wise.16:09
DocScrutinizer05btw talk.maemo.org formerly been internettablettalk.com and is the only *.m.o service never ruled or owned by Nokia16:10
paul_boddieOn other matters, when will Neo900 donations be officially open again?16:12
DocScrutinizer05again, no matter if you're correct on this or not - Nokia is basically dead and not interfering with maemo anymore at all, since almost 3 years now, since 18 months for good16:12
DocScrutinizer05so watever you considered "Nokia took care too much about" for sure isn't applicable anymore16:13
DocScrutinizer05maemo (social) is an autonomous group of people, with only one administration entity and that's maemo council16:15
paul_boddieMy point about Nokia is that people were comfortable while Nokia was driving everything, and that doesn't necessarily promote a healthy community.16:15
DocScrutinizer05and maemo council evidently doesn't take too much care about anything communty related16:15
DocScrutinizer05so what?16:15
paul_boddieWell, doesn't it explain the malaise you see now?16:16
DocScrutinizer05abandon it and give it the finger?16:16
DocScrutinizer05I'm actually almost about to do exactly that16:16
DocScrutinizer05and I don't need more explanations why maemo is what it is. I seen it becoming what it is today16:17
DocScrutinizer05and guys like Estel did a massive job to accomplish that16:18
DocScrutinizer05since he made lots of users do what you did: avoid froum16:18
paul_boddieI don't have an opinion about Maemo itself, just the community infighting.16:19
DocScrutinizer05of course only the "good" users, leaving talk.maemo.org with even higher concentration of trolls and insane fools like estel16:19
paul_boddieAs I said, people don't get nasty when times are good and there's a new N-model round the corner.16:19
DocScrutinizer05estel does16:20
paul_boddieI meant a new N-model from Nokia, and for free to selected "developers". I bet everyone was more cheerful then.16:20
DocScrutinizer05not estel16:21
paul_boddieI think the measure of a community is made when times aren't great and there's no supposedly benevolent corporation pouring money into it.16:21
DocScrutinizer05I think that's pretty much completely irrelevant, and your focus on developer-device-program which handed out a 200..300 devices total iirc,  I don't get your point on that16:22
DocScrutinizer05btw all DDP devices been loaners16:23
DocScrutinizer05nobody ever really returned them, but Nokia *could* have asked for returning them any day16:24
DocScrutinizer05and rules to evaluate who qualifies for a DDP-device are not justifying your appostrphes around "developers"16:25
DocScrutinizer05also most community members were not exactly chearful about DDP since they never even thought trying to qualify themselves as maemo developer, Most ignored the DDP and some even got envy16:26
DocScrutinizer05the latter particularly true when N950 DDP happened16:27
paul_boddieWell, I still wonder whether it really had the desired effect. I do know people who get developer devices, but they really were genuine developers. I suspect they were in a minority, though.16:28
Action: DocScrutinizer05 glares at the dust covered N950 in front of him16:28
DocScrutinizer05and I dunno if it had the desired effect. Heck I don't even know what exactly been the effect *desired* by those who did the DDP16:30
paul_boddieSurely it's to get bottoms on seats and to build functionality and attractive software to get end-user bottoms on seats.16:30
DocScrutinizer05when they hoped for one app per 5 DDP devices handed out then for sure they overcommitted their goals16:30
DocScrutinizer05when it been field test of beta/pre-release versions of their OS, then damn sure they succeeded16:32
paul_boddie1 app per 5 devices? Were they lighting cigars with 100 EUR bills at Nokia Towers while claiming impending victory?16:32
DocScrutinizer05when it been "create another media hype" then also success I'd say16:32
DocScrutinizer05this discussion feels strangely moot16:33
paul_boddieI'm not sure about success when there were three generations of developer devices and only then did they do the N9/N900.16:33
Action: DocScrutinizer05 emphasizes last post16:34
DocScrutinizer05I'm for sure not up to defending every single decision Nokia management and merchandising department ever did. I think it's completely futile to even speculate16:35
paul_boddieAll I really wanted to say was that the occasionally poisonous atmosphere of your favourite forum is a product of earlier times.16:36
paul_boddieI hope Neo900 gives people something to focus on because they seem to need it.16:37
whitequarkso much backlog16:43
DocScrutinizer05only a humble 3 screenfull16:48
paul_boddiewhitequark: What happened to that language/compiler project of yours?16:48
DocScrutinizer05since your last post16:48
whitequarkpaul_boddie: http://whitequark.org/blog/2013/12/21/foundry-has-been-cancelled/16:50
paul_boddieDocScrutinizer05: Will you go back to taking general donations for Neo900 at some point or hope to convert most of them and then go to the next stage?16:50
DocScrutinizer05We will open up *some* form of donation option soon again. Actually it's already there, though hidden: http://neo900.org/donate  and even http://neo900.org/funds-transfer16:51
paul_boddieI must admit that I've been tempted. Looking at smartphones in general is a hateful process.16:52
DocScrutinizer05the problem is: I'm *very* reluctant* to ask for, or even just accept, donations from countries/regions where we anticipate an unclear or problematic shipping situation when it comes to delivering a device16:53
DocScrutinizer05and since we haven't established any sort of list of locations where we expect to be able to ship to, this is the major blocking factor for a public invitation to donate for now16:54
paul_boddiewhitequark: Is that Crystal thing (mentioned by a commenter on your blog) something like Shedskin but for Ruby?16:54
DocScrutinizer05maybe I go the opposite way and offer to refund the donation when we can't ship16:54
paul_boddieI think I'd just donate and hopefully we'd be on speaking terms by the time you delivered. ;-)16:55
whitequarkpaul_boddie: sorta16:55
paul_boddieThe Shedskin guy has done great stuff, but I'd be worried about "global type inference" in general.16:56
DocScrutinizer05paul_boddie: you're welcome to do so any time :-)16:56
DocScrutinizer05please make absolutely sure to send a mail in parallel, and mention that sending mail addr in subject of your money transfer16:56
paul_boddiewhitequark: Did you consider sacrificing sacred parts of Ruby to more easily achieve your goals?16:57
DocScrutinizer05twell us in that mail about your donation and what it's meant for16:57
wpwrakphew, skipping ahead:16:57
whitequarkpaul_boddie: that's a really abstract suggestion16:57
paul_boddieQuick, wpwrak is catching up: more content required. ;-)16:57
wpwrakpaul_boddie: i think you can donate now: neo900.org/donate  we just don't make much noise about it :)16:58
whitequarkpaul_boddie: I think, given unlimited time, I would eventually designed something very much like Rust16:58
paul_boddiewhitequark: Well, in the Python world, as soon as you mention dropping any feature, everybody wails about it not being Python any more.16:58
whitequarkFoundry would not have been Ruby at all16:58
whitequarkin any case16:58
whitequarkthat became clear quite early on16:58
whitequark(neither are Crystal or Shedskin.)16:59
wpwrakhmm, vice president at court, being read what he's being charged with. already three hours passed and he's still in there. i'm very curious about his face when he comes out :)17:00
paul_boddieBut do you think it's worth using a selectively trimmed back version of Ruby instead of proper Ruby, or do you think that you'll just spend a lot of energy and arrive at the same place as Rust or Java?17:00
whitequarkthere has never been any arguing about making a "selectively trimmed back version of Ruby"17:00
whitequarkor in other words, I never really wanted to make a Ruby *subset*17:00
paul_boddieWell, what I regard as Python is something which could easily be a subset of what people insist is Python today.17:01
whitequarkthere's mruby, which *is* a Ruby subset. it's kind of like Lua, functionally17:01
whitequarkfor starters, I intended to kill dynamic typing from almost very beginning17:01
paul_boddieBut then again, I've been using Python for a long time and have seen things come and go.17:01
whitequarkthis alone makes the language pretty far from Ruby or Python17:01
wpwrakall you really need is asignment, var++; and if (var1 == var2) goto X; ;-)17:03
Action: whitequark slaps wpwrak around a bit with a large trout17:04
whitequarkwpwrak: actually if you want to reduce to absurd, you only need one instruction, subleq17:05
Action: DocScrutinizer05 still tries to find the exact meaning of the term "speaking terms"17:05
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: "A and B are on speaking terms" a "A speaks to B"17:05
whitequark"speaks" as in "A not told B he will never speak to the latter again"17:05
DocScrutinizer05cool utf-8 you got there ;-)17:06
whitequarkcompose key17:06
DocScrutinizer05compose what? _ = ? = - ?17:06
whitequark= _17:07
DocScrutinizer05= = ?17:07
whitequarkit may be a custom combination I have17:07
DocScrutinizer05my intuation suggests it's not, _ = been my first guess :-)17:07
whitequarkI have a lot of stuff there, like ´ ”   »17:07
whitequarkand of course  _  and (o°¡°o5 ;;17:08
DocScrutinizer05the latter comes a bit garbled here17:08
DocScrutinizer05or I simply don't get it17:08
whitequarkit's called "table flip"17:09
wpwrak(subleq) naw, assembler isn't fashionable again, yet17:09
whitequark°¡° are eyes and mouth. oo are the arms. ;; is the table. 5 is "woosh"17:09
DocScrutinizer05I've see a bull with horns:  (╯°□°)╯17:10
whitequarkwtf you just pasted17:10
DocScrutinizer05dang that doesn't even c&p17:10
whitequarkit does for me :p17:10
paul_boddieFunny that a search for "Crystal language" gives the Wikipedia entry for David Crystal as the first hit.17:11
Action: whitequark uses konsole17:11
dos1(o°¡°o5 ;;17:11
DocScrutinizer05;;  517:11
DocScrutinizer05 (o°¡°o17:12
DocScrutinizer05weird, nfc what went wrong17:12
wpwrakhmm, there seems to be a fire somewhere nearby. firefighter trucks racing down the avenue, then turning into the neighbourhood, then shutting down the sirens somewhere in a ~100 m radius17:12
wpwraknothing to see, though17:12
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: well, it actually still works. from a different perspective17:12
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: when nothing to see, it's exactly under you17:13
wpwrakanyway, it won't be where i live. that should still be too wet for burning ;-)17:13
DocScrutinizer05;-) / :-o17:13
dos1funny: http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2014-06-09.log.html17:13
dos1logs from http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware show it just like my client, but this one correctly interpreted that thing pasted by DocScrutinizer05 and fails at others17:14
dos1still talking about that utf8 madness :)17:14
DocScrutinizer05you prolly should've used a line tag17:15
whitequarkdos1: for me, irclog.wq.org correctly interprets my and your paste17:15
whitequarkbut DocScrutinizer05's first attempt is garbage like in my client17:15
whitequarkmigrate to utf8 already17:15
whitequarkwell, duh. because they're broken in the same way17:15
whitequarkprolly interpret everything as utf8-interpreted-as-iso8859-117:16
DocScrutinizer05the really funny part: my own client showed garbage which I posted only accidentally17:17
kyakthe qi-bot is not utf-8-enabled.. it is required to patch eggdrop in debian to get utf-8 (somewhat) working17:17
whitequarkalternatively, rm `which eggdrop`17:17
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: now that's almost right, except for  _ 17:18
whitequarkit uses a Devanagari (I think?) symbol, for which you evidently don't have fonts17:18
whitequark"The unicode character   comes from the letter mha in Kannada, one of the major Dravidian languages of India that is influenced by Sanskrit."17:19
DocScrutinizer05you're aware I see same black square all the time?17:19
whitequarkyes. key word: "same"17:20
DocScrutinizer05no, I meant "same" ;-)17:21
DocScrutinizer05can't you read the 9 chars in it? here, count for yourself: SAME17:21
DocScrutinizer05IOW I have nfc what you're talking about17:22
DocScrutinizer05give me the U-nnnn value or the symbolic name of the char17:23
DocScrutinizer05aaah ok17:23
DocScrutinizer05well, not really17:24
DocScrutinizer05that website is full of ads links17:24
DocScrutinizer05and nothing else17:24
DocScrutinizer05http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/miscellaneous_symbols/utf8test.htm  here you are17:24
DocScrutinizer05ugh, you ommitted a "h"17:25
whitequarkads links!?17:26
whitequarkthat's the official unicode website and it doesn't have any ads17:26
DocScrutinizer05BWAHAHAHA ttp://unicode.org/cldr/utility/character.jsp?a=0ca0 shows expected ads garbage, while http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/character.jsp?a=0ca0 shows *same* black square again17:27
whitequarkoh, it's not an image17:28
DocScrutinizer05you been faster17:29
DocScrutinizer05I can figure that emoticon would lok really cool on systems that have the needed fontset17:30
whitequarkyea, most modern systems do17:31
eintopfI broke my touch digitizer of my smartphone :(17:33
whitequark"Send suspicious downloaded files to Google"17:51
whitequarkWTF, Chromium17:51
DocScrutinizer05chromium brwoser strongly deprecated by c't (heise) in their article about privacy on android, exactly for privacy reasons17:53
whitequarkchromium on android is a very different beast17:54
whitequarkon desktops it's FOSS, on android it is not (afaik)17:54
DocScrutinizer05never even looked into it17:54
whitequarkat least I'm not aware of a way to build it17:54
whitequarkthe default Android browser is mostly fine though17:54
DocScrutinizer05I think chromium *is* the android default browser?17:55
larscchrome is17:55
whitequarkno, it is not17:55
whitequarkthere's AOSP browser17:55
whitequarkwell, maybe it is now, it wasn't ~year ago17:55
larsc(at least on my android)17:56
DocScrutinizer05chrome, chromium, wtf?17:56
whitequarkchromium is FOSS, chrome is chromium + google anal probe17:56
DocScrutinizer05sounds about right ;-P17:56
whitequarkchromium is generally OK in that it has all the evil stuff optional and mostly even disabled by default17:56
DocScrutinizer05I honstly can't recall if that artocle said "chrome" or "chromium"17:57
whitequarkthough they migrated to some homebrewn graphics toolkit (?) instead of gtk in the latest update and that doesn't respect system DPI settings17:57
whitequarkand XCompose is broken too17:57
ysionneauin AOSP the browser is fully open source (sounds logical, you're supposed to be able to build AOSP from scratch) ... but I don't know if it's Chromium or something else ... might be chromium indeed17:58
whitequarkno, it's not related to chromium17:59
whitequarkit uses system webkit (webview) with some simple interface written around it17:59
ysionneauyes ok makes sense17:59
DocScrutinizer05never heard of AOSP, and happy about it18:00
whitequarkandroid open source project18:00
whitequarkbasically, the android tree released under BSD is called "AOSP"18:00
ysionneauit's the Android you can build yourself18:00
whitequarkas opposed to the crap that vendors like Samsung put into phones18:00
whitequarkCyanogenMod = AOSP + drivers + few useful tools18:00
DocScrutinizer05I guess I can't tell my gf to move ot cyanogen or ASOP18:01
whitequarkcyanogen is perfectly fine to run as your day-to-day firmware18:01
ysionneauwell it depends on her phone18:02
ysionneaubut lots of phones are supported by cyanogen18:02
whitequarkit works much better than vendor firmwares, because it's not bloated by various shit that spies on you and shows you ads18:02
whitequarkand forces you to use services you'd rather not even know about18:02
ysionneaubut usually if you want your cyanogen to work "as well " (or in fact better) than the stock firmware, you still need some closed source blob 18:02
DocScrutinizer05sure, but how would I sell that to her?18:02
DocScrutinizer05it's not like I could do service on her phone on a daily basis18:03
whitequarkwhy would you need that?18:03
whitequarkjust put it there and forget18:03
DocScrutinizer05I had a hard time teaching her how to do backups on her PC every now and then18:03
whitequarkAOSP is not Gentoo, it's basically how Android should have always worked, which is, much better than how most phones actually work18:04
ysionneauusually cyanogen let's you customize better than stock ROM18:04
DocScrutinizer05and just getting latest Samsung firmware update installed to that tab2 been a PITA that took hours in the end18:04
ysionneaufor normal users (Customers I would say) they can keep the original firmware if they don't feel they need something to be different18:05
DocScrutinizer05errr note218:06
ysionneauwith cyanogen your phone is usually rooted by default so you have tons of apps like firewalls, anti ads, data backup applications, VPN stuff, VOIP apps18:06
ysionneautethering when stock rom had it disabled18:06
DocScrutinizer05sure, but my GF doesn't give a F18:06
ysionneauthen I guess she can stay on stock rom18:07
whitequarkif she's happy with stock rom, moving to anything else is pointless18:07
ysionneauif she really gives a shit about having "mostly open source ROM" then she would be interested in cyanogen18:07
ysionneauthis + customizing18:07
whitequarkwell, I've had people thank me for 1) removing all the bloatware 2) as a result, making device more responsive18:08
DocScrutinizer05that's what she expects me to do, yes18:08
whitequarkcyanogen is very noticeably faster on some devices18:08
DocScrutinizer05remove the bloatware and crap18:08
whitequarkbecause it doesn't have all the vendor-installed background services doing some obscure pointless shit18:08
whitequarkand taking up loads of RAM18:09
DocScrutinizer05speed is not an issue, phone is *always* too slow for her18:09
DocScrutinizer05even a supercomputer would be too slow for her18:09
whitequarka supercomputer doesn't necessarily have low latency, it rather has high throughput18:09
whitequarkwhich could indeed feel slow18:09
whitequarkwhat phone is it?18:10
whitequarkcyanogen works on that18:10
DocScrutinizer05maybe, but *I* don't ;-)18:11
DocScrutinizer05well, and then? I already can't answer her questions when she calls me because "this doesn't work!!1!11!"18:12
ysionneaubeware that if she is fan of some samsung rom feature that's not in cyanogen ... she might say "aaah this does not work anymore"18:12
DocScrutinizer05for now I can tell her to look into any tutorial she might find on devoce18:12
ysionneaulike I don't know, split screen with 2 apps18:13
ysionneauor drawing a square with the pencile on the screen and running an app in the square 18:13
ysionneauor the proprietary voice recognition software18:13
DocScrutinizer05that one she loves18:13
ysionneauor the proprietary text to speech engine (which is wayyyy better than the one in AOSP)18:13
DocScrutinizer05that one maybe too18:14
ysionneausamsung is paying a subcontractant about TTS 18:14
ysionneauwhich is a good one18:14
whitequarkgoogle has its own TTS18:14
whitequarkwhich you get if you install google services over cyanogen (nontechnical folks usually do)18:15
whitequarkgoogles TTS understands me pretty well actually18:15
DocScrutinizer05she hates typing on c-ts, so she's very much in love with voice recognition for texting18:15
ysionneauwhich is less good than the other one from I dont remember the company name18:15
dos1Android uses Chromium engine for WebView in 4.418:15
dos1previously it was some old webkit, not related to Chromium18:15
ysionneauah SVOX18:15
ysionneauthat's a good TTS18:16
DocScrutinizer05she pesters me to finally build Neo900, so she can get one to have a proper hw kbd :-)18:16
ysionneaudon't bother then :p18:16
ysionneau(with android)18:17
dos1but I don't know what's the default browser app in AOSP 4.418:17
dos1AFAIK devices with Android 4.4 don't come with stock browser anyone, they use Chrome18:18
dos1so maybe it's Chromium now in AOSP?18:18
ysionneauI don't think so18:18
dos1or no browser at all? ;o18:18
ysionneauAOSP comes with the "basic" browser, and google phones come with Chrome I think18:19
ysionneauI'm pretty sure google phones don't come with AOSP18:19
dos1"With KitKat, Google completely killed the AOSP browser and even stopped actively updating it. "18:19
ysionneauin term of apps I'm sure18:19
ysionneausince google apps are not in AOSP18:19
ysionneauand google phone comes with google apps (gmail, chrome, youtube, google calendar etc)18:20
DocScrutinizer05FSCK kitkat!18:20
DocScrutinizer05now that's totally completely insane to package a complete OS as a adware18:20
DocScrutinizer05I will never ever again eat a KitKat18:21
DocScrutinizer05"do you use KitKat, CocaCola, or Bailey's?"  WAAAAAHHHH!18:22
dos1let's rebrand to Oreo900 :)18:22
DocScrutinizer05and I bet on KitKat you can only have red background colors18:22
dos1actually, I fail to notice any major diference between 4.x Android versions when I see them sometimes from user perspective18:23
dos1maybe when you actually use them instead of looking over the shoulder of other people you see something, but for me it's all the same :P18:24
dos1the main thing I noticed is the innovative semi-transparent top bar in 4.4 ;)18:25
DocScrutinizer05I love the stylus of note218:25
DocScrutinizer05and actually that's been the selling point for my GF18:26
DocScrutinizer05since, you know... she hates c-ts18:26
dos1same with friend from work18:27
dos1she brings it sometimes when we want to test something on tablets18:27
dos1it's "capacitive screen finally made somewhat bearable" :D18:27
DocScrutinizer05and the note2 stylus comes with pressure sensing, and an awesome "right mouse button"18:28
DocScrutinizer05honestly if it wasn't for android, i'd feel tempted... ;-)18:29
dos1I still hate all those accidental touches on c-ts18:29
DocScrutinizer05too sensitive, too inexact18:30
dos1how are you supposed to hold such device when lying in bed for instance?18:30
DocScrutinizer05Raster never got ny point on that one18:30
dos1no way to be comfortable and not screw up whatever you're doing with accidental touches on edges18:30
dos1capacitive screens should have bezels like freerunner's one :P18:31
Action: DocScrutinizer05 calls gf to do tough interrogation on when been last time she connected note2 to her laptop and started the PC-software to allow it making a backup18:33
DocScrutinizer05she broke the hooker800 I gave to her, and all her contacts lost since whe never did any backup18:34
DocScrutinizer05then she got the Note218:34
DocScrutinizer05I still don't buy the "I accidentally dropped it" - I bet she got angry and bashed it into the wall ;-P18:34
whitequarkoooh, bashing a phone into the wall18:35
whitequarkhow I love that18:35
DocScrutinizer05harly anything else you could do with a windows phone18:36
whitequarkwtf is c-ts?18:36
whitequarkcapacitive touchscreen?18:37
DocScrutinizer05capacitive ts18:37
DocScrutinizer05hmm, only 3.9°C higher outside, maybe time to finally open the windows18:38
whitequarkit's never time to open Windows18:39
DocScrutinizer05OpenWindows? BWAHAHAHA18:40
wpwrakkewl. after a lunch break of a few minutes, the vice president continues to be grilled in court. that's now more than five hours minus the lunch break ("of a few minutes")19:21
DocScrutinizer05wtf? http://wstaw.org/m/2014/06/09/plasma-desktopLE1787.png  (more strange rendering of strange chars)19:52
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: the longer this takes, the more likely nobody is willing to actually decide on it. In the end he will get away with it since court boggles from complexity of the case19:53
wpwrakoh no, that's how it works here. anything in justice takes several years. for example, the government didn't adjust pensions for inflation. so retirees started lawsuits. eventually, the building that held the document was closed because it was at risk of collapsing under the sheer weight of the documents.20:14
wpwrakand of course, the government is playing on the old people to die before their case it settled.20:14
wpwraknews from the vice president. now, after being grilled by the judge for six hours, he's about to leave the building. takes him quite a while, it seem. what's the time it typically takes for the cocaine to kick in and for you to feel on top of the world again ? :)22:16
DocScrutinizer05I'd guess that depends on a huge number of parameters22:26
DocScrutinizer05usually the placebo effect kicks in instantly22:27
wpwrakhehe :)22:29
DocScrutinizer05btw it seems this instant set-on time of placebo effect gets massively ignored in efficiency studies for pharmaceuticals. It would be a really easy way to tell apart the placebo effects from real pharmaceutical effects22:32
DocScrutinizer05it's really amazing and almost a miracle. Pharmacological scientists tests stuff like: provide immune suppressor (after transplantation) as a juice with a very typical unusual aroma. After only a few days, remove the suppressor substance and provide placebo juice of same taste. Tests show it has identical immune system suppressing properties like the original medication, though without the side effects22:39
whitequarkI don't know if your TV is like ours, but ours frequently touts stuff like urinotherapy as something that actually works22:40
whitequarkI mean, they unironically show people that say "omg I drank piss for a month and my cancer was cured"22:41
Action: whitequark shrugs22:41
whitequarkI severely doubt the correctness of your claim; if you really want to see if it's true, pubmed probably has an entry.22:41
DocScrutinizer05nope, ours isn't like that. When they interview a scientists Maier from university XY then you usually can assume that's not made up by TV, and you'd hope it's also not made up by the professor22:42
whitequarkstill, unless there is a publication in something peer-reviewed, the claim is simply garbage22:43
whitequarkand if there is a publication, it *may* not be garbage, but also may be22:43
DocScrutinizer05what you mean is called commercials here. Or to be found in commercial TV channels like RTL22:43
DocScrutinizer05I'm never watching those for reality stuff, only to watch NCIS etc22:44
whitequarkin medicine, I wouldn't look at anything less than a decently sized meta-analysis, simply because I don't have the expertise to assess the claim properly22:44
DocScrutinizer05sure, whatever works for you22:45
DocScrutinizer05probably in your country with your TV it's the correct approach like "it's been told in TV, so it must be a lie"22:46
whitequarkthat's one factor22:46
DocScrutinizer05and yes, I of course know about scientists who make up stuff to get more funds22:46
whitequarkstill, a claim of a single researcher, even more so an *outlandish* claim, to which the media is biased, should be treated with doubt22:47
whitequarkwho said about making stuff up? a honest mistake.22:47
whitequarkor wishful thinking because of an immense pressure to release a paper22:47
DocScrutinizer05sure, possible. But then, it's pretty much in line with expectations22:48
whitequarkif you actually read the publication itself, very often you can see that it, for example, has 15 data points, the prediction barely fits, and there's no mechanism that would explain the observed effect22:48
whitequarkwhich means that they either cherry-picked the data or just were lucky. it's more or less normal, but it's also the reason you don't treat single publications as some kind of gospel. you look at them in aggregate22:49
DocScrutinizer05you treat some of my story telling like a gospel22:49
whitequarkyou tell it very much like gospel22:50
DocScrutinizer05I'm pretty much aware of all you quoted22:50
DocScrutinizer05while you have a "as far as I know" in *every* sentence, right? ;-)22:50
whitequarkI try to abstain from making outlandish claims without that, and if I do, slap me silly, because I shouldn't22:51
DocScrutinizer05define outlandish please22:51
whitequark"fact: pharma companies ignore trivial properties of placebo effect that even an EE knows"22:52
whitequarkwelp, maybe I should just mentally /ignore everything you say not about EE (and adjacent areas) :p22:53
DocScrutinizer05when i quote one detail from a report about placebos, I don't think I have to assume this single one must be incorrect because it sounds too strange to some guy in Moskow. When it is in line with all other results of similar resp related tests, about efficiency of analgetica, even depending on the color of the pill, about placebo effects of fake analgetica even tested by EEG and PET, and by studies about homoepatics which in same 22:55
DocScrutinizer05report been considered a special form of placebo, then I dunno...22:55
DocScrutinizer05fact: pharma companies have a vital interest to ignore that well known fact22:56
DocScrutinizer05but yeah, please ignore anything I say, I'm bored by your criticism22:56
whitequarkfact: TV companies have a vested interest in feeding you whatever bullshit makes you watch more ads22:57
DocScrutinizer05you're telling brown stnking bullshit, in germany we have 2 channels that are NOT operated by any sort of company, and I told you I only watch those two for any sort of fact gathering22:58
DocScrutinizer05but meh, how should you even know about such facts22:58
DocScrutinizer05please do me a favor and /ignore22:59
DocScrutinizer05oh, and yes, going by the principles of immune system most susceptible to controlling effects of psyche/subconscious aka placebo effect, actually drinking urine _might_ indeed  yield positive effects as long as those doing it believe it will cure them. It is sufficiently intrusive/invasive/disgusting to cause massive placebo effects23:08
DocScrutinizer05IOW to do it you must really really believe it will help you, and that conviction alone is already a good therapeutic for cancer23:12
DocScrutinizer05^^^THIS *is* proven by several studies23:13
whitequarkI'd be really interested in reading that.23:14
DocScrutinizer05sorces fro depression causing weak immune response? source for people more often dying from cancer when they have no perspective in life, and most healings being accompanied by the patient changing his life and avoiding stress? Go to any arbitrary oncologist and ask him for sources, when you can't find your own evidence in your daily life23:20
whitequarkhm: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2473356823:20
whitequarkseems to not be in print yet...23:21
whitequarkfascinating, still23:22
whitequarkaha. this is a pretty great overview: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16887325 23:33
whitequark(pdf: http://libgen.org/scimag4/10.1016/j.bbi.2006.05.003.pdf)23:34
DocScrutinizer05I'm fed up with having to cite .gov texts to prove my statements. Nevermind23:38
whitequarkbetter just make claims based on thin air!23:39
DocScrutinizer05beter just /ignore DocScrutinizer0523:39
DocScrutinizer05my thin air is 1000 times thicker than your bitching23:40
DocScrutinizer05your studies you dug up are pretty much supporting every single point I made. Thanks a lot for that, no take your thin air bashing and eat it!23:42
DocScrutinizer05just I don't need friggin studies to know, I witnessed that stuff myself in my immediate kin, and also heard it from several doctors since decades. Next time you ask "which study is that?" I will ask +you* for a study proving I'm wrong23:46
DocScrutinizer05wait, no. won't happen since you ignore me now, and same applies to me for any questions like this from your side23:51
wpwrakhmm, vice prez finally left the courthouse at 20:30. seemed relaxed and in a condition to talk coherently. damn, i was so hoping to find him nervous and tired.23:51
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: you really hoped for that? you're dreaming, he slept it away23:58
DocScrutinizer05the time it took him to come out was for waking up23:58
wpwrakheh :)23:59
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