#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2014-06-05

wpwraknowadays probably TONs :)00:50
nicksydneywpwrak: really ? thought it would be something like 8 or 10 :)01:37
nicksydneywpwrak: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/simd-engines-comparative-reference-guide04:02
wpwrak... and i should have noticed that anelok v1 uses 60 mil pads for test point while ybox v2 uses 80 mil. wonder if i should make the ones in anelok a bit larger. in theory, 60 mil still ought to be more than enough, but ...04:02
nicksydneyis it really worth backing up ?04:02
nicksydneyi go with60mil04:02
wpwrakin the test fixture for ybox i also screwed up the position somehow. the generous tolerance may thus have helped. but then, not screwing up the next time may be a decent plan, too :)04:05
wpwrak(simd book) dunno. i never used these critters. if it's something you need, why not ?04:07
DocScrutinizer05seedmatch sounds like the better alternative to kickstarter and pink Neo90005:04
DocScrutinizer05and no, i don't think the project should wait with already planning and initiating step 205:05
DocScrutinizer05step 1 will profit from step 205:06
DocScrutinizer05and step 2 will profit from sufficient lead in time05:06
DocScrutinizer05e.g. we could already fund sw development from capital for step2 and use Neo900 as development platform05:07
DocScrutinizer05the patch to GTA02 also been via GTA01, and the path to N900 been via 770 and N800/1005:10
DocScrutinizer05and those paths took years05:10
DocScrutinizer05the question isn't whether we should start step2 now or later, the question is if we think we want to start it at all05:12
DocScrutinizer05Neo900 has natural limits of growth, we can't build significantly larger number of devices than a thousand, we won't be able to source unlimited number of mech parts from N90005:17
DocScrutinizer05and the time is right05:18
DocScrutinizer05for a secure and safe mobile phone05:18
DocScrutinizer05tbh I'm surprised about the amount of support Neo900 received without already presenting any plausible perspective for step2, aka "the future of Neo900"05:29
DocScrutinizer05presenting such perspective now will attract more prospects to Neo900 from the community that's interested in an open linux phone, as well as from the wider public that's interested in an alternative to Samsung et al which *really* respects user's privacy and freedom05:32
nicksydneyanother MIPS product http://blog.imgtec.com/mips-processors/inside-the-new-dhanush-wearable-chipsets-from-ineda-systems  http://www.inedasystems.com/dhanush-wpu.html06:07
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I know you'll hate the idea, but maybe it's a good idea to advertise neo900 to the android community07:05
whitequarkbecause http://beranger.org/2014/06/01/android-4-5-end-of-road/07:05
whitequarktl;dr google killed rootable phones07:05
whitequarkotoh: >>we can't build significantly larger number of devices than a thousand<< may be a problem with this plan...07:10
DocScrutinizer05that's why step2 comes in just in time right now07:16
DocScrutinizer05advertising to android community makes zilch sense without such NeoTwo plan clearly explained and exposed07:17
DocScrutinizer05on "killed rootable"... what did they do? tiviozation?07:18
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: ^^^07:20
whitequarksee, technically, if *you* can root your phone, *any* app you download, some Candy Crush or similar shit, can establish a persistent threat07:27
whitequarkso on one hand what they did is good for security07:27
whitequarkbut on other hand, as a side effect, it takes the last bit of control out of users' hands07:27
DocScrutinizer05technically that's not correct07:27
whitequarkI mean, sure, they could leave an unlockable bootloader and allow you to reflash07:27
whitequarkand on Nexus series it's true07:27
whitequarkbut Samsung, HTC, ... don't do that07:28
DocScrutinizer05when you need a key that's not available on the phone, or a special procedure like connecting the phone to a PC via USB07:28
DocScrutinizer05techically nobody can root my device after *I* rooted it ;-)07:29
whitequarknot true, rooting android phones is almost always done with a local privilege escalation in kernel07:29
whitequarkand given the sorry state of upstream drivers, you can hardly install a more recent kernel with that fixed07:30
DocScrutinizer05that's a bug that could and SHOULD be fixed, easily and immediately07:30
whitequarkthat's the state of the majority of phones on market, dozens of easily exploitable local vulnerabilities07:30
whitequarkused for rooting07:31
whitequarkthe phones with unlockable bootloaders are a sad minority07:31
DocScrutinizer05give user *full* control (aka root access) on device, enforce proper password on first boot, and done07:31
whitequarkvendors don't *want* to give users root access07:31
DocScrutinizer05that's the problem07:31
DocScrutinizer05Neo900 is the solution07:32
whitequarkthose who do require to sign ridiculous waivers like "we're not responsible if you kill yourself with the phone"07:32
whitequarkwhich explains why they don't want07:32
whitequarklawyers gone mad07:32
DocScrutinizer05they ARE (first and foremost) responsible for vulnerabilities and the damage done by those07:33
whitequarkno, the reasoning is like, "you can tweak hardware directly, therefore you will cause your phone to melt in your pocket and burn you"07:33
DocScrutinizer05so instead of doing it right and granting user the ability to fix any such vulnerability, they just go further the opposite wrong direction07:34
whitequark"and we don't want to be responsible for that"07:34
DocScrutinizer05then they have terribly poor EE07:34
DocScrutinizer05I can tell you there is no way to make e.g. a N900 melt07:35
DocScrutinizer05fry the CPU, sure, but not melt07:35
whitequarkI'm 100% sure no software can make your phone kill you07:35
DocScrutinizer05it's a lame excuse for them not wanting to give up control over their sheep07:36
whitequarkso here's your answer, lawyers gone mad07:36
DocScrutinizer05o/ off for a walk07:36
DocScrutinizer05I need some fresh breeze and new inspirations to push on Neo900 towards breaking new ground07:37
DocScrutinizer05the time is right like never before it been07:38
DocScrutinizer05thanks for letting me know about this android crappy move07:38
DocScrutinizer05just one more for you: do you think a 2 core 1.6GHz A9 can run a VM?07:39
DocScrutinizer05reasonably fast?07:39
DocScrutinizer05given we soon see lots of servers based on ARM, the VM itself shouldn't be much of a problem07:41
DocScrutinizer05maybe it actually already exists07:41
DocScrutinizer05"which phone model do you want to use today?" ;-)07:42
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: it's not really "just a VM"07:43
DocScrutinizer05I know, a tad more07:43
whitequarkAndroid precompiles the Dalvik (Java) bytecode to ARM native code07:43
whitequarkin other words, 2 core 1.6GHz A9 is about three times more powerful than you really need07:44
DocScrutinizer05hmm, that still should be fine on an ARM core07:44
whitequarkplenty of chinese phones get by with MUCH less07:44
whitequarkservers based on ARM will be based on AArch6407:44
whitequarkaka ARMv8 64-bit, it's quite very different architecture07:44
whitequarksomewhat changed ISA and very significantly changed silicon07:44
whitequarkthough, latest iphone runs on ARMv8.07:45
whitequarkdoes Neo900 have any kind of GPU?07:45
whitequarkugh powervr sgx07:47
whitequarkI suppose it would work for accelerating interface though07:47
whitequarkand I suppose rz2k (not in channel right now...) could help us figure out all the multitude of reasons this crap doesn't work well :)07:48
Action: whitequark sighs08:21
whitequarkok, der/das/die aren't so hard. what is really hard is the verbs, mainly because it uses various terms like "conjugate" and "indicative" and whatever, in other words, assuming that the reader was taught all the useless grammar-related terminology in primary school or somethin08:22
larsckindergarden ;)08:29
whitequarkin RU I had to memorize it in primary school. the 4 years of education after kindergarten08:32
whitequarkbut the terms don't map to english at all and frankly they hardly even make sense in russian08:32
whitequarkand I blissfully forgot most of it anyway08:32
Action: whitequark shudders08:33
larscI'm not even sure we learned to conjugate in school or whether we were supposed to know how to do it08:33
whitequarkI believe there was a whole year or even two dedicated to that stuff08:34
whitequarkin excruciating detail08:34
larscactually, yea, I think there was a lot of "Ich gehe, du gehst, er/sie/es geht, wir gehen, ihr geht, sie gehen"08:35
whitequarkoh, hm. nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, (two more I can't easily find)08:35
whitequarkbut actually these terms are just literal translations of russian ones. weird, I never noticed it earlier08:36
whitequark"genitive" in russian has same root as in "giving birth" and I could never figure out wtf is up with the name08:36
ysionneauwhen you learned latin you are used to those "accusative" etc stuff09:02
ysionneauand in French there are some relic of declension (qui que quoi dont où)09:03
ysionneauyes Latin is heavily using nominative accusative genitive dative ablative etc cases for nouns09:14
ysionneauyou have like 5 types of declensions09:15
ysionneauit's hell to learn :)09:15
whitequarkwhy would you want to learn it?..09:15
ysionneauto study old texts for instance09:15
ysionneaulike someone would like to learn old greek09:15
ysionneaupersonally I didn't have the choice :p09:16
ysionneauat my school Latin was mandatory09:16
whitequarkwow. hardcore09:16
ysionneauand I was very bad at it though09:16
ysionneauFrance and its elitist education system :)09:16
ysionneauplease learn complex Math and useless languages just for the sake of showing you are smart09:17
ysionneauthen you can rule the country or big companies09:17
apeletehi larsc11:07
apeletewould you know how to read a CONFIG_MMC_DEBUG log output ? -> http://paste.debian.net/103460/11:08
apeletelately I tried to understand why the mmc driver returning EIO in mmc_blk_issue_rw_rq() at drivers/mmc/card/block.c11:09
apeleteand I tracked it down to mmc_start_req() at drivers/mmc/card/block.c11:09
apeletewhere it runs mmc_wait_for_data_req_done() which seems to fail11:10
apeletebut I can't yet know why because the kernel just hangs at that point (screen flickers and everything just hang, neither gdb nor the ben does respond anymore)11:11
larscmaybe your DMA goes havok and overwrites random memory11:12
apeleteyeah, I'm trying to understand why11:14
apeletewas wondering if I set something wrong during DMA configuration in jz4740_mmc.c11:15
apeletewhich would explain why it is tranferring 0 bytes of data:11:16
apelete[    3.100000] mmc0: starting CMD18 arg 00000000 flags 000000b511:16
apelete[    3.110000] mmc0:     blksz 512 blocks 8 flags 00000200 tsac 100 ms nsac 011:16
apelete[    3.120000] mmc0:     CMD12 arg 00000000 flags 0000049d11:16
apelete[    3.130000] jz4740-dma jz4740-dma: vchan 80d3b8f8: txd 8183cc00[7]: submitted11:16
apelete[    3.140000] jz4740-dma jz4740-dma: txd 8183cc00[0]: marked complete11:16
apelete[    3.150000] jz4740-mmc jz4740-mmc.0: DMA command completed11:17
apelete[    3.160000] mmc0: req done (CMD18): 0: 00000900 00000000 00000000 0000000011:17
apelete[    3.170000] mmc0:     0 bytes transferred: 011:17
apelete[    3.190000] mmc0:     (CMD12): 0: 00000000 00000000 00000000 0000000011:17
apeletelarsc: what does the following line mean to you ?11:17
apelete[    3.170000] mmc0:     0 bytes transferred: 011:17
larsc0 bytes transferred ;)11:18
apeleteok, I guess we agree on the semantics then: nothing is being transferred11:19
larscor the mmc code doesn't know that anything was transfered11:19
apeleteah, didn't think about that possibility11:20
larscI think you need to update data->bytes_xfered11:20
larscafter the DMA transfer finished11:20
pcercueiCMD18 is "write multiple", shouldn't its argument be something else than 0?11:25
apeletepcercuei: don't know, that's why I was asking how to read the output :)11:30
apeletewhere can I find the definition of each CMDXX ?11:30
apeletein mmc/sd specification maybe ?11:31
pcercueiI used this doc when working on ubiboot: http://elm-chan.org/docs/mmc/mmc_e.html11:32
apeletelarsc: just grepped the code to see how data->bytes_xfered is updated. I think I'll try: data->bytes_xfered = data->blocks * data->blksz;11:32
pcercueimostly for debugging, since the low-level SD code was already written11:32
apeletepcercuei: very nice, thanks11:35
apeletedamn, so much to learn... I wish I had more spare time lately, daytime job is killing it for me11:39
ysionneausame for everybody I guess11:41
nicksydneyhttp://thenewkingmakers.com/  The book about how developers took over the world 11:45
larscstrangely enough I think I haven't yet ;)11:49
ysionneaubecause you don't work at Apple or Microsoft :)11:50
larscor the NSA I guess11:50
whitequark"the book about delusional people living in San Francisco"11:51
ysionneautakings drugs and eating flowers11:52
ysionneauwoops wrong time period11:52
nicksydneywpwrak: MediaTek LinkIt is a development platform for Wearables and Internet of Things (IoT) http://www.mediatek.com/en/labs/12:06
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: (Neo900++) yes, there's also a nice evolution path: get rid of all the old nokia parts that will get increasingly impossible to source12:34
wpwrakwhitequark: i think rootable is now being seen as a feature by more manufacturers. then just don't buy the ones who don't give you a clean way to root the box.12:36
wpwrak(latin) me too. part of "proper higher education" in the old days12:39
larsc'hic forum est' all I remember12:40
wpwrakat least you learn useful expressions like "Agripina cacator est." (Agripina is a shitter. "piece of shit" or such)12:40
ysionneauhomo homini lupus12:40
ysionneauand the usual alea jacta est12:40
whitequarkwpwrak: not really, unfortunately, no.12:42
whitequarke.g. the Samsung phones, which constitute the majority of market (and are also the only vendor bringing in a modest profit), aren't rootable by design12:42
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: btw, I have disassembled the pump I bought previously12:43
whitequarkit is amazing. it has ventilation (?!) holes right next to the leaking water chamber seal12:43
whitequarkand there is a conveniently placed plastic gasket (?!), basically a ring with no obvious function except to guide water from leaking seal right inside the motor chamber12:43
whitequarkit has no hydraulic function, because it's not tight enough to isolate anything, and it has no mechanical function, because it does not fix any parts in place12:44
whitequarkWTF is with this design12:44
wpwrakmade in china ? cargo cult meets reengineering meets massive mass production12:45
wpwrakyou know, some say "form follows function", but then it's easy to confuse this with "function follows form". just make it look the same and it'll work ;-)12:46
whitequarkmade in russia12:46
wpwrakmaybe chinese emigrants. the ones who weren't smart enough to make it at home :)12:47
wpwrakactually, i wonder how long we'll see those dodgy ripoffs. first, the market should adjust and catch them a bit earlier. second, the level of competence in china should be increasing massively.12:49
sb0"but a great writer of software code is worth 10,000 times the price of an average software writer"13:07
sb0a writer of FASHIONABLE software code. that's a world of difference.13:07
ysionneau09:27 < whitequark> see, technically, if *you* can root your phone, *any* app you download, some Candy Crush or similar shit, can establish a persistent threat < I so agree with that13:07
ysionneaubeing able to "root" the phone, from just an application is just a security issue13:08
ysionneauit means that any app can just do anything it wants : dump your sms/calendar/contacts and send it to the internet etc13:08
ysionneauroot should only be achievable through reflashing the device13:08
ysionneauso indeed all bootloaders should allow you to reflash the device13:09
ysionneautoo bad some don't :(13:09
ysionneaubut I sooo don't like the fact that my Samsung Galaxy S3 is just a big security hole13:09
sb0and it's very disturbing that you can get almost 2x the LHC construction budget with a sexting app13:09
ysionneausame for OMAP3630 kernels13:09
ysionneausb0: lol !13:10
sb0it would be nice if the writer of that piece of shit of a book realized that13:10
ysionneauthat's the difference between business and research13:10
ysionneaumost people don't care about research, they care about their own small, narrow minded life13:11
wpwraksb0: compare: how much sex do you get out of LHC ? then do the math which strategy is evolutionarily more successful :)13:11
ysionneauand you get money if you interest people, people are interested in sexting, not research13:11
ysionneauso money goes to sexting13:11
wpwrakysionneau: and especially their genitals :)13:11
whitequarkI would say that this is a problem with one particular capitalist circlejerk in California13:11
sb0me? I actually like dating physicists, so...13:11
ysionneauwhitequark: sometimes funding is not in phase with actual public demand, but I guess that most of the time it is13:12
ysionneaupeople get what they ask for13:12
ysionneauthey want idiotic applications on their phone to tap on candies while commuting? they get it13:12
larscso the LHC is just a dating platform for scientists?13:12
whitequarkysionneau: the public doesn't get to say much13:12
ysionneauwhitequark: why do the public use that?13:13
whitequarkthe author of the app sells it (and its users) to the venture capitalist13:13
ysionneauI see tons of people playing this stupidgame in the subway13:13
wpwraksb0: i mean over the population that benefits from aforementioned investement. unless you turn into a modern day casanova, you stand no chance to beat all the sexters :)13:13
whitequarkysionneau: and it is that transaction which is absurdly inflated13:13
wpwraklarsc: now they have to kill you13:13
ysionneauwhitequark: if the app is able to get revenues by ads because a lot of people use it, then it's "normal" it gets funding13:14
ysionneaupeople invest when they see something getting revenues13:14
wpwraklarsc: please have the courtesy to warn your office colleagues to stand clear of the particle beam that will arrive from the southwest in a few instants13:14
whitequarkpeople invest when they see other people investing, mostly13:14
ysionneauwhat is sad, is that it gets any revenue at all13:14
whitequarkit's a typical case of herd mentality13:14
ysionneaualso there is this I guess13:14
whitequarkand, uh13:14
ysionneau(this==what you say)13:14
larscpcercuei: take cover ;)13:14
whitequarklook at, say, twitter13:15
whitequarkwhere is its revenue?13:15
whitequarkno, look at its financial data13:15
ysionneauand surely selling data about people13:15
ysionneauI'm not sure they earn that much money indeed13:15
whitequarkwhere, exactly, are the bucketloads of money that it brings and which explain its valuation?13:15
ysionneaubut I guess investor see "potential" in it13:15
ysionneaubecause of the large amount of people using it13:15
whitequarkinvestors are as dumb as you or me13:16
ysionneauwell, I see potential, when you get people to use your system13:16
ysionneauit's a matter of time you find some way of getting money with that13:16
whitequarkfor how long twitter exists already? almost a decade?13:16
whitequarkdo they have a viable business model? doesn't really look so13:17
whitequarkthere's hundreds of services with a promise "let's get more people on board, we'll figure how we get the money later"13:17
whitequarkhundreds of services born each year, hundreds go to grave each year13:17
ysionneaufirst 6 months of 2013 they made $254m 13:17
wpwrakif a biz is around for a decade, i daresay they have a viable model, no matter as how odd it may strike you ;-)13:17
ysionneaubut they must have terrible costs, since in the end they lost $69m13:18
whitequarkor think about facebook purchases13:18
whitequarkwhen you see "facebook paid $16B", it doesn't mean facebook paid $16B of cash13:18
whitequarkmost of that is--indeed, facebook--stock13:18
ysionneauwpwrak: I think whitequark is saying that their business model is just to get funding from investor :p13:18
ysionneauwith no real profit from anywhere else13:18
whitequarkysionneau: that's a good way to put it13:18
ysionneauand I guess for now it's true13:19
wpwrakysionneau: seems to work just fine :)13:19
whitequarkunsustainable in long term13:19
ysionneauso they are just screwing investors in  the end?13:19
ysionneaunice plan!13:19
larscits a ponzi scheme13:20
ysionneauI hope government don't invest on that13:20
whitequarkwhere do VCs get their money, how do you think?13:20
wpwraka decade is a good start :) at what age do you plan to retire ? 1000 ? :)13:20
whitequarkysionneau: ofcourse it does, a good chunk of VC money comes from pension funds13:20
whitequarkfor example13:20
ysionneauwhitequark: different sources, either banks, or insurances, or rich people13:20
whitequarkyes, plenty of sources13:20
ysionneaubut pension funds are not paid by the state right?13:21
whitequarkalso I dare you to look at the returns on VC capital for last decade or two13:21
ysionneauah it's paid by working people13:21
ysionneauwhitequark: they usually say "for 10 projects we invest on, 9 are failure and 1 is OK to compensate"13:21
whitequarkin theory, they should be higher than average, otherwise, what's the point? in reality, they hover just above zero13:21
ysionneaudunno if it's right13:21
whitequarkwell, that's the idea behind VC. but it's supposed to be better than average, in compound13:22
whitequarkfrankly I don't believe Facebook will survive, say, two decades. maybe not even one13:22
whitequarkApple and IBM will be around in 210013:22
ysionneauso you say when facebook "buys" a company, they just sell their actions to buy the other company?13:23
whitequarkysionneau: to a high degree, yes13:23
whitequarkthere's usually some cash paid as well, and maybe other instruments13:24
whitequarkthey don't *sell* their stock, they offer their stock in exchange of other company's stock13:24
pcercuei< larsc> pcercuei: take cover ;)13:26
pcercueihmm what?13:26
pcercueisorry, I'm working13:26
whitequark"How will WhatsApp make money? Not ads, Koum said. (Well see.) Monetization wont be a priority near-term and, in fact, the company wont reveal how many of those 450 million users are paying $1 a year after the first year of free service. Were focused on the growth, he said."13:27
whitequarkdoesn't this sound absurd?13:27
whitequarkWhatsApp business model surely was selling their company to Facebook :)13:27
ysionneauindeed when you think about those things that's crazy13:30
whitequarkone thing this whole contraption is surely excels at, so far, is making a few rich white guys even richer. everything else is doubtful at best13:31
ysionneauand it gives work to a looooooot of people13:34
ysionneauwithout making them rich13:34
ysionneauall the traders/accountant/investment company employes etc etc13:35
ysionneaulawyers etc13:35
whitequarkugh, insurance companies13:40
whitequark16 pages of fine text, 42 sections13:40
whitequark(o°¡°o5 ;;13:40
wpwrakmany a lawyer seems to "earn" a decent living ...13:42
larscI've just the right article for you http://www.salon.com/2014/06/01/help_us_thomas_piketty_the_1s_sick_and_twisted_new_scheme/13:46
wpwrakhmmm, very long. at ~30% ...14:18
wpwrakone point that may be missing: more people, higher productivity = fewer good bottom-end jobs. so people *have* to move up, just to find some space14:19
larscor you work less14:20
wpwrakyes, but out model of distribution of resources is still work-based. so if you don't change that first, "working less" for most people simply means living in poverty.14:46
wpwrakgood mouths_to_feed / work_done ratio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg#t=27914:56
larscwpwrak: I think Sweden is reducing the work week to 4 days or something14:57
larscat the same amount of pay14:57
pcercueitime to learn swedish :)14:59
whitequarkhaha, http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/01/09/things_i_wont_work_with_azidoazide_azides_more_or_less.php15:30
whitequarkand this: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/08/28/mercury_azides_ill_get_right_on_those_for_you.php15:31
whitequark Explosions are definitely underappreciated as a mixing technique, but in this case, they are keeping you from forming any larger crystals, a development which the paper says, with feeling, "should be avoided by all means".15:33
whitequarkFootnote 18 hints that -- unbelievably -- they repeated the autoclave protocol more than once.15:35
whitequarkApparently any excess starting material will also crystalize, yielding large mercury (I) azide crystals. Helpfully, Footnote 18 cautions us that, quote, "the slightest provocation [of these crystals] ... will always lead to a violent detonation, thereby decomposing the whole batch."15:35
whitequark"it is frequently advisable to work with [selenium compounds] on alternate days", which I suppose is to give them time to work their way out of your nasal passages.15:45
wpwrakah, he has a new entry. nice :)19:02
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: 19:18
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: you should try mercury azides19:18
DocScrutinizer05what for?19:18
DocScrutinizer05I don't like mercury much19:18
whitequarkbut you do like explosions as a mixing technique or other unusual applications :)19:19
DocScrutinizer05and decomposition of the azide would dispense that crap nicely19:19
DocScrutinizer05I prefer copper azide for that19:19
whitequarkcould also try other heavy metals19:19
whitequarkuranium azide?19:20
DocScrutinizer05or was it copper acetate?19:20
DocScrutinizer05copper  acetylite ;-P19:20
whitequarkacetate doesn't explode19:20
whitequarkacetylite... wouldn't that only generate acetylene in contact with water?19:20
whitequarkor does it also detonate?19:21
whitequarkoh it does, cool19:21
DocScrutinizer05copper salt plus acetylene is a known nogo in all labs19:21
DocScrutinizer05even for acetylene welding19:21
DocScrutinizer05on the brass armatures19:22
sb0DocScrutinizer05, know this?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosion_welding19:22
DocScrutinizer05metal copaounds?19:22
DocScrutinizer05invented by NASA19:22
DocScrutinizer05two sheets of metal explosion-fused together?19:22
DocScrutinizer05like steel with alu19:23
DocScrutinizer05know this19:23
DocScrutinizer05since ages actually19:24
DocScrutinizer05I actually even (accidentally) done it ;-)19:25
--- Fri Jun 6 201400:00

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