#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2014-06-01

DocScrutinizer05wtf, that been the most massive *distributed* brute force crack attack to my box ever00:41
DocScrutinizer05at least a 50some different IPs spammed SMTP with the usual idiotic login attempts00:43
DocScrutinizer05concurrently00:43
wpwrakhmm. wonder if this has something to do with my host (where also all my mail goes) having very erratic connectivity01:00
whitequark50 is not "massive"01:02
whitequark50k is more like it01:02
wpwrakin russia, 50k distributed brutes attack you every morning, even before the first vodka01:03
whitequarklol01:04
dos1yeah, neo900.org probably saw much bigger "attacks" in its lifetime01:07
whitequarkdos1: appropriate nick01:09
dos1:D01:09
wpwraknow i understand why dos1 handles the customer contact at neo900 !01:16
whitequarkhardcore: http://hackaday.com/2014/05/31/poor-mans-3d-printer-looks-rough-prints-great/05:10
wpwrakindeed, the question is right on the mark :) nice, but too unique05:16
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/1059.fpd (1059, 1060): Keystone CR2032 battery holders (TH and SMT) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b7d32fa05:19
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/HIERARCHY: added more sub-caregories for Connector/{SMT, TH} (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/e83674a05:19
wpwrakand now .. 378 footprints in the catalog ! http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf05:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/1059.fpd: renamed 1059, 1060 to KS-* to avoid confusion with stdpass (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/365de1105:27
nicksydneythis is nice http://dangerousprototypes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=6477&sid=b23c9d8921a34144cc07e5c75464c785  (SMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT)08:06
nicksydneySMT700 New vision based SMT machine from SMALLSMT08:06
nicksydneyhttp://smallsmt.com/08:06
nicksydneyuhhh http://www.martin-kumm.de/wiki/doku.php?id=Projects:SMD_Solderstation ( SMD Soldering Station for Weller Soldering Tips )08:11
nicksydneythis is very handy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhb4TAzPmI8&feature=player_embedded  Macgyver SMD Soldering Iron Adaptor 08:31
whitequarksmallsmt seems extremely unfinished09:22
nicksydneywhitequark: seems like it....WIP i suppose10:26
wpwrakpretty  machine :)11:08
wpwrakand they aim for about the same price as the ACME TM220A/TM240A, with better features11:12
wpwraknow add direct solder paste deposit (should be feasible) and selective ion beam soldering (i just made that one up), and you have your one-box smt line11:13
whitequarkion beam? just use an ir laser11:13
wpwrakthen all you need is an unboxer11:14
wpwrakwon't the IR laser give you trouble with reflections ?11:14
whitequarkwell11:17
whitequarkion beam has a few problems too11:17
whitequarkfor example, focusing.11:17
wpwraknow here's a challenge for you now that you've tamed the CNC machine :)11:30
wpwrakhmm, kicad really wants be to redraw zones manually. copy helpfully places the copy right on the original, so the only way to move them is by moving them individually. and when i do this, pcbnew crashes :(12:17
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv/dsv: add Z tag to select files in ZIP archive not ending in .zip (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/7067c0013:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv/dsv: change indentation to tab instead of 4 spaces; fix typo (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/8c5d7d713:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: rptflt/rptflt.pl: filter for KiCad DRC reports (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/c07e33b13:35
wpwrakoh, had some ancient unpushed changes13:36
whitequarkwoohoo, bought a new pump and a 5L tank13:37
wpwrakdon't forget to add a new apartment with a nice large factory hall to that shopping list as well13:38
whitequarkwell... that more depends on property prices13:41
whitequarkat wherever I will finally move13:44
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: hey, Nuernberg/Fuerth/Erlangen is a nice place to live - but you'll most likely prefer Berlin or sth like that13:46
whitequarkwhy do you think I'd prefer Berlin?13:47
DocScrutinizer05compared to Moscow Nuernberg must feel to you like a village13:47
whitequark(there is a reason I perhaps would, although it's not what you'd expect and not really set in stone)13:47
whitequarkwell duh, have I ever said I like Moscow?13:47
wpwrakjoerg;s area isn't too far from austria, so you can get decent beer, too13:48
whitequarkI would fucking burn it down to ground if I could13:48
whitequarkI hate every inch of this place13:48
wpwrakberlin should also be a bit colder than than bavaria13:48
DocScrutinizer05yeah, for sure13:48
whitequarkI mean, just today it managed to remind me all the reasons I do13:48
DocScrutinizer05and more opportunities for finding work, I guess13:48
whitequarkdysfunctional public transport, hot, smelly, dirty, cars everywhere13:49
wpwrakah, then perhaps iceland ? friendly, probably quite tidy, cold13:49
whitequarknot a single nice quiet place I know of13:49
wpwrakand they shouldn't have a lot of cars either13:49
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: so, well, a village would actually be quite welcome13:49
whitequarkas long as that village has broadband and working postal service13:50
whitequarkby "working", I mean "working not worse than RU post"13:50
whitequarkI highly doubt that even the most remote corner of DE has post that works worse than ours13:50
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: (opportunities) more and more companies are willing to go for remote work, but yeah, that's still an important factor13:51
whitequarkmost importantly, what are the property prices in Berlin? say I have a 30 sq. m. (I think?) apartment here, how much would rent cost me there?13:52
DocScrutinizer05https://maps.google.de/maps?q=49.448802,11.055081&hl=de&ll=49.449044,11.054864&spn=0.005671,0.016512&sll=49.448880,11.055030&layer=c&cbp=13,277.84,,0,4.37&cbll=49.449004,11.054704&t=m&z=17&panoid=xjc51txeXraeIRpIW5CfMw13:53
whitequark"Erlangen" would be a funny place to live in, though for all the wrong reasons :D13:53
wpwrakhmm, an elderly aunt of mine has a whole unused apartment in her house. lives in a "city" that pretty much qualifies as "in the middle of nowhere" in austria. they have impressive traffic, though, because there's a highway going right through their market place. but they're planning to fix this (like they have for the last few decades :)13:54
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: compare to: (my current place) https://www.google.com/maps/place/%D0%A0%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F+%D1%83%D0%BB.,+23%2F33/@55.705746,37.921852,3a,75y,359.86h,87.99t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sOTc9q9iRaiJVHqJDZN96oA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x414ac9c194ced56b:0x25a87230e7457c1913:55
DocScrutinizer05nasty13:55
whitequarkbasically how most of moscow looks like13:55
whitequarkwpwrak: hmmm! enticing13:56
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: I've heard that Berlin is one of 3 cities more expensive than Moscow13:58
whitequarknext to NY and London13:58
DocScrutinizer05https://maps.google.de/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=de&geocode=&q=49.448802,11.055081&aq=&sll=49.448802,11.055081&sspn=0.001367,0.004128&vpsrc=0&ie=UTF8&t=m&z=1613:58
DocScrutinizer05I thought there's no city more expensive than Moscow13:59
DocScrutinizer05depending on your metrics, of course13:59
DocScrutinizer05well, to give you a ballpark: my 58m^2 cost 340¬/month + 40EUR for crap&bla +60EUR for heating14:00
whitequarkwell... for this tiny apartment in the second dirtiest neighbourhood of moscow I pay $750 plus electricity (that's like $10), monthly14:00
wpwrakfor their traffic problem, see the picture on page 2 of http://www.land-oberoesterreich.gv.at/cps/rde/xbcr/ooe/mattighofen_folder.pdf (worth enlarging :)14:00
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: seems it's substantially cheaper14:01
DocScrutinizer05sure14:01
DocScrutinizer05Nuernberg has 500k residents14:01
DocScrutinizer05Nue/Fue/Er ~1mio I guess14:01
whitequarkwpwrak: you call that "a traffic problem"?14:02
wpwrak(current place) nice ! spacious, a lot of green14:02
wpwrakfor a "city" with less than 6000 inhabitants it's pretty good :)14:02
whitequarkit's actually commonplace in Moscow in some parts to have a traffic jam at 2AM14:02
whitequarkI'm not sure whether it ever dissolves, in fact14:03
wpwrakat 2 am you'd probably have the whole place to yourself :)14:03
whitequarkat my place? there's actually quite a lot of heavy traffic for such time14:04
whitequarklike, I don't think the chunk of road immediately visible from my window ever completely clears of cars14:04
whitequarkat any time at all14:04
whitequarkin fact, at night it's mostly loud, heavy trucks14:05
wpwrakno, i mean mattighofen. people there go to bed when the sun sets :)14:05
whitequarkah14:05
DocScrutinizer05lots of green? that's lots of green: http://wstaw.org/m/2014/06/01/plasma-desktopim1787.png14:05
whitequark^14:05
DocScrutinizer05related: how the heck do you share google streetview URLs?14:07
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: ... I copy them from the URL bar?14:07
DocScrutinizer05doesn't work for me, it seems14:07
whitequarkweird14:07
DocScrutinizer05konqueror I guess14:07
DocScrutinizer05it has a nasty tendency to sometimes not update the addr filed URL14:07
DocScrutinizer05field*14:08
whitequarkoh, I see14:08
whitequarkprobably doesn't support html5 pushstate api14:08
DocScrutinizer05you bet it doesn't14:08
whitequarkit's used by webapps to pretend to navigate to another page but actually just update the relevant parts via js14:09
whitequarkworks especially great on slow mobile links14:09
whitequark(I mean, no sarcasm; it's genuinely a nice solution)14:10
DocScrutinizer05anyway, hasn't Neo900 UG a representative prestigious address? ;-)14:10
whitequarkdo you ask me?..14:10
DocScrutinizer05a 150 year old little house with a roof that almost collapses14:11
DocScrutinizer05not easy to find houses of that age in Nuernberg ;-)14:12
Action: whitequark nods14:13
wpwrakon average, they're older ? :)14:14
whitequarkiirc, nuernberg was so heavily bombed in wwii that the whole city was basically destroyed, and promptly rebuilt from scratch14:15
DocScrutinizer05http://wstaw.org/m/2014/06/01/plasma-desktopkQ1787.png14:15
wpwrakah well, minor needed some minor repairs then14:16
DocScrutinizer05amazingly they decided to rebuilt everything so it now looks like nothing happened, at least in the ancient city center14:16
wpwrakgrmbl. reordering sentences is tricky14:17
DocScrutinizer05https://www.google.com/images?q=neurnberg+2.+weltkrieg+zerstoerungen14:17
DocScrutinizer05wikipedi to the rescue \o/  http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftangriffe_auf_Nürnberg14:19
DocScrutinizer05not even in FF the URL changes when changing view direction and/or position in streetview14:31
whitequarkrecent ff?14:32
whitequarkfor me the last two fields change: 14:32
whitequarkhttps://www.google.com/maps/place/ >645AB25=A:0O+C;.,+23%2F33/@55.705746,37.921852,3a,75y,335.01h,91.23t14:32
whitequark’ 335.01h,91.23t14:32
whitequarkdoesn't seem like there's an explicit "copy url" button anywhere...14:33
DocScrutinizer05flash14:34
whitequarkflash?14:34
whitequarkthere's no flash in streetview anywhere14:35
DocScrutinizer05uhuh14:35
whitequarkseriously. I don't even have the plugin loaded at all right now14:36
whitequarkmaybe google serves different streetview to EU for some obscure reason?14:36
DocScrutinizer05RMB gives me "About Adobe Flash Player 11.2.202.359.." etc14:37
whitequarkactually, seems like they do; if I go through your link, it loads flash and the URL doesn't change14:37
DocScrutinizer05PITA14:38
whitequarkyep, if I go through google.de that happens14:38
whitequarkwtf14:38
wpwrakgoogle may be doing flash and HTML5, like in youtube14:39
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: oh, gotcha 14:39
whitequarkyou need to opt-in to "new maps" to get an interface without flash crap14:39
whitequarkvia https://maps.google.de/maps/tt/optin?status=invite14:39
whitequarkapparently it's specific for each of google TLDs for some idiotic reason14:39
DocScrutinizer05and prolly only available when you register, eh?14:41
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: no idea, does it ask you?14:41
DocScrutinizer05no, but despite it now seems to not have adobe, it still doesn't change URL, neither in Konqui nor FF14:43
whitequarkhow does the url look?14:44
DocScrutinizer05wow, does THIS work for you? https://maps.google.de/maps?q=49.448802,11.055081&hl=en&ll=49.448054,11.056387&spn=0.011342,0.033023&sll=48.917413,11.407993&sspn=5.870185,16.907959&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=49.448148,11.056466&panoid=7BXu-uFcBBuuN_URrf68zA&cbp=12,311.29,,0,-0.3514:45
whitequarkI'm looking at a tree14:46
whitequarkwith a person underneath14:46
DocScrutinizer05I'm almost looking at same tree when looking outa my kitchen window14:46
whitequarkmm, nice place14:47
DocScrutinizer05actually my house is 50m down the pedestrian way you see the entrence to it in background14:47
whitequarkis it quiet?14:47
whitequarkhow often do your neighbours spend entire weeks trying to perforate their concrete walls with some seriously underpowered tools?14:48
DocScrutinizer05https://maps.google.de/maps?q=49.448802,11.055081&hl=en&ll=49.448601,11.05476&spn=0.001425,0.004128&sll=48.917413,11.407993&sspn=5.870185,16.907959&t=m&layer=c&cbll=49.448601,11.05476&panoid=-ft7e426ltVSBRItVo1UiA&cbp=12,0,,0,0&z=1914:49
whitequarkseems to be a national sport here. in *every*single*place* I've been there's always some perforation enthusiast14:49
DocScrutinizer05never14:49
whitequarkI'm sold14:49
whitequarkyou have no idea how "enjoyable" is it to be regularly awaken by the sound of a crappy drill gnawing some concrete right above your heat14:49
whitequarkhead*14:49
DocScrutinizer05https://maps.google.de/maps?q=49.448802,11.055081&hl=en&ll=49.448869,11.05482&spn=0.001418,0.004128&sll=48.917413,11.407993&sspn=5.870185,16.907959&t=m&layer=c&cbll=49.448869,11.05482&panoid=QaQQX8DngVKEEA1TUaCk6Q&cbp=12,86.71,,0,10.04&z=19  is the end of the 50m pedestrian way14:50
DocScrutinizer05I guess there's few concrete in my house and the next ones ;-)14:51
whitequarkright14:51
DocScrutinizer05you rather can drill holes with a pencil XD14:51
whitequarkbtw: I see no air conditioning external modules14:52
whitequarkdo none of the houses have A/C or is it just cleverly hidden?14:52
DocScrutinizer05AC is pretty uncommon here14:52
whitequarkI see14:52
DocScrutinizer05office buildings tend to have those lately14:53
DocScrutinizer05basically _no_ non-commercial flat or building has any AC14:53
DocScrutinizer05we rather need heating here14:53
whitequarkA/C is an effective heating solution14:54
whitequarkfor instance this unit I have, which has less than 1kW of power, heats my apartment *way* better than a 3kW electrical heater14:54
DocScrutinizer05for the maybe 10 days per year when it's >25 centigrade outside, we keep the windows closed and enjoy the climating properties of our thick walls14:54
DocScrutinizer05sure, but a 3kW gas heating is way cheaper than a 1kW AC here14:55
whitequarkwhile it is supposedly only to be used in temperatures over -15°C, I've successfully used it throughout the entire winter, including in -25°C14:55
DocScrutinizer05both purchase and operating14:55
whitequarkand it still was quite efficient at cooling the outside air to something even colder14:55
DocScrutinizer05electrical energy is incredibly "expensive"14:55
whitequark(the fact that I never turned it off might have actually saved it)14:55
whitequarkhm, I see14:56
whitequark(10 days per year; climating properties of walls) both make sense and both great14:56
DocScrutinizer05we pay ~25ct/kWh14:56
DocScrutinizer05so this would be ~3EUR/d for your AC14:57
whitequarkeh, it shouldn't work at maximum power most of the time14:57
whitequarkI don't think it would or should normally eat even 100W14:57
DocScrutinizer05sure, I already assumed a 50% duty cycle14:58
whitequarkhm... I pay 6.6ct/kWh peak and 1.7ct/kWh off-peak14:58
whitequarkquite a difference indeed14:58
DocScrutinizer0524h * 1kW * 0.25EUR/kWh14:58
DocScrutinizer051.7ct/kWh was a reason for our *industry* to completely move to your place, unless there was other obstacles14:59
DocScrutinizer05it's insane15:00
DocScrutinizer05here15:00
DocScrutinizer05but we want it that way15:00
DocScrutinizer05no more nuklear power plans etc15:00
DocScrutinizer05plants*15:00
Action: whitequark wouldn't really mind a nuclear plant operating right under his ass15:00
whitequark... if not built by russians, of course15:01
DocScrutinizer05right, you got no "Asse" next to you15:01
DocScrutinizer05we're thoroughly fed up with that shit here15:01
DocScrutinizer05http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schachtanlage_Asse15:02
whitequarkand you know why? because "conventional" reactors are designed for producing weapons-grade plutonium rather than energy, in the first place15:03
whitequarkthere *are* designs which are safer, cheaper and produce much less waste, or in fact can use waste from our current reactors, if you want then15:03
whitequarke.g. LFTR. it has some problems, but the biggest of them is regulatory dickheads15:04
DocScrutinizer05we know *our* engineers and they sound damn alike the japanese ones15:04
whitequarkokay, well, now that's a reason15:04
DocScrutinizer05Fuku finally changed the game, after your chernobyl already did some years ago15:04
whitequarkFukushima has so much useless scaremongering, it's not even funny15:05
whitequarkpeople hear "nuclear" and piss their pants. do you know why MRI is called "MR"I rather than "NMR"I, which would be correct, given the physical effect?15:05
DocScrutinizer05it shows we're constantly getting lied about such stuff15:06
whitequarkthat's a reason to push for better transparency in the industry15:06
whitequarkI wonder when EU will say "oh, NSA spies on us in the internet, let's shut down the internet"15:06
whitequarkgood idea by this logic15:06
DocScrutinizer05all histroy shows evidence that control of industry doesn't work15:07
whitequarkthere's plenty of industries which have been regulated and as result we're much safer. no reason nuclear can't be same.15:07
DocScrutinizer05one reason: it been like this for several decades now15:08
whitequarkyou know, it's basically like planes and cars15:08
DocScrutinizer05and still we see same shit happen15:08
whitequarka plane crashes, it's all over the news, and people everywhere shit themselves15:08
whitequarkwhereas cars kill thousands of people daily and no one gives a fuck15:08
DocScrutinizer05no, planes and cars can get smashed in a second and you simply forget about them15:08
whitequarkcars : planes = coal : nuclear15:09
DocScrutinizer05fucking nuclear wase and pollution stays for millions of years15:09
whitequarkI've already said, there are better ways to dispose of even current waste rather than simply burying it15:09
DocScrutinizer05we want none of them15:10
whitequarkif you don't want to produce weapons Pu that is15:10
DocScrutinizer05we don't see why we need nuklear shit15:10
whitequarkhigh EROEI?15:10
DocScrutinizer05it's more expensive and much more dangerous than any other means to produce energy15:10
DocScrutinizer05TCO15:11
whitequark(more dangerous) mainly in politicians minds and popular agenda15:11
DocScrutinizer05our energy providers now try to "sell" the nuklear waste problem to government, by offering a 30 billion EUR to get rid of it15:11
DocScrutinizer05I honestly hope they won't get away with it15:12
whitequarkhttp://xkcd.com/1162/15:12
DocScrutinizer0530E9 EUR15:14
DocScrutinizer05estimated final cost to deal with that shit: magnitudes higher15:14
whitequarksounds high until you compare it with the cost of getting the same amount of energy in other ways15:15
whitequarkthen it doesn't sound so high15:15
wpwrakyeah, nuclear power isn't so bad. wouldn't want to have a plant right next door, in case something goes wrong, but in a sufficiently remote area, why not. the biggest problem with that it that remote areas tend not to have rivers, and as far a i know, all the fission reactor designs still need that.15:15
DocScrutinizer05and that dosn't take into account the billions they already received on subsidies15:15
whitequarkwpwrak: I would absolutely have any modern design plant right next to me.15:16
DocScrutinizer05I don't give a shit about plants. We simply don't need that money sink anymore15:16
whitequarksure, RBMK is horrible, but no one forces you to use RBMK! 15:16
DocScrutinizer05it's *evidently* more expensive than anything else, in TCO15:17
whitequarkI grant DocScrutinizer05 that fukushima handling is full of lies, but the actual damage is negligible compared to what a coal station does while operating a few days15:17
whitequarkand I do compare apples to apples, you release nuclear shit while burning coal15:17
DocScrutinizer05I also don't give a shit about Fuku15:17
DocScrutinizer05we also do no coal stations anew here15:18
DocScrutinizer05we get solar power and windparks15:18
DocScrutinizer05and hydro15:18
whitequarkand what's EROEI on solar? and what if you now include the degrading panels?15:18
DocScrutinizer05and geothermics15:18
whitequarkhydro is great, but it tends to destroy huge surface15:18
DocScrutinizer05toldya we want it that way15:18
DocScrutinizer05we got fed up with that shit15:19
DocScrutinizer05human hibris15:19
DocScrutinizer05of engineers15:19
DocScrutinizer05ansd scientists15:19
whitequarkas if a dam can't lead to a catastrophe ;)15:19
DocScrutinizer05sure it can15:20
DocScrutinizer05so what?15:20
Action: whitequark shrugs15:20
wpwrakat least it's quick ;-)15:20
whitequarkthe economic argument is sound. the rest is meh15:20
DocScrutinizer05do you think it's fair to tell your children "you not only pay more than you earn to pay my rent now, you please also take care of that pile of green glowing shit over there!" ?15:21
whitequarkand I will repeat again, that there are designs that do not require long storage of highly active waste15:22
wpwrakthey'll grow up with it. they won't even think it's unusual :)15:22
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: repeat that as long as you like. I don't see it anywhere in RL15:22
whitequarkyou mean in production installs? because of people like you who prevent usage or even proper certification of anything more recent than shitty 50 year old, almost cold war era designs15:23
wpwrak(fukup) and let's not forget that japan has some bad memories about nuclear "incidents"15:23
DocScrutinizer05even tokamak might be a pipe dream when you count in the contamination of the containment15:24
Action: wpwrak gets the popcorn15:24
whitequarkwpwrak: I thought it would be a factor, but then I looked closer and apparently japanese have more sense in these questions15:24
DocScrutinizer05people like me? you're getting personal and mad15:24
whitequarkit's more a statement of fact, there are groups of people who blindly oppose even any research into better designs, and that is silly15:25
whitequarkbtw, japanese already cancelled the program that would involve shutting down all of the reactors. at least once, sanity prevailed15:25
DocScrutinizer05no, it's pretty reasonable, given we decided we don't ned that shit15:26
whitequark"we decided we don't need that shit because it's dirty, and it's dirty because we decided we don't need that shit"15:26
DocScrutinizer05and we're not willing to allow "people like you" another decade in their sandbox15:26
whitequarkabsurd argument15:26
DocScrutinizer05or two, or three15:27
whitequarkyeah, better buy tons of inefficient solar panels, with incredibly dirty production process15:27
DocScrutinizer05with another few chernobyls and fukus15:27
DocScrutinizer05and the pile of waste growing15:27
wpwraki guess it'll go like this: the germans will put lots of solar panels on their roofs, produced in countries where nobody makes a lot of noise about the production overhead. then they install wind parks. and if all that still isn't enough, then the rest will be provided through the european interconnect15:27
whitequarkbut who cares, if it's just some river in china that gets poisoned15:27
wpwrakin other news, france adds some new reactors ... ;-)15:28
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: your guess is uneducated15:28
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: that argument too is absurd. no sane person would deploy RBMK today or even 50yrs ago15:28
whitequarkand soviets were evidently insane for actually deploying it. nothing you could do about that, too.15:28
DocScrutinizer05eh?15:29
whitequark"hey, let's install a reactor that we know fails unsafely" "sounds like a perfect idea" � how Chernobyl happened15:29
DocScrutinizer05so what? how fuku happened?15:29
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: yeah, i actually don't know if they'll add them in france. maybe it'll be ukraine :)15:30
DocScrutinizer05wasn't fuku "absolutely safe" design based on GeneralElectrics?15:30
wpwrakperfectly safe, in the deserts where GE tested it ;-)15:30
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: you're talking random gibberish to me15:30
whitequarkfuku is *nowhere* near chernobyl. fuku was hit by an earthquake exceeding its planned limits by a factor of ten, and how much people got sick from radiation?15:30
whitequarkI'll tell you, exactly zero15:30
DocScrutinizer05suuuure15:31
whitequarkyou have data proving otherwise?15:31
whitequarkand if you say "fallout", I say "look at that dozen of coal powered stations right next, which actually result in *more* nuclear fallout in a year than ten fukushimas"15:32
whitequarks,earthquake,tsunami, (though earthquake is the ultimate initial reason, still)15:32
DocScrutinizer05I simply say we love our small country too much to have no-go areas in it that will stay for centuries15:32
DocScrutinizer05and please don't tell me now "japanese are mad to create a no-go area around Fuku"15:33
wpwrakwhitequark: for cancer rates and such it's still a bit early. also chernobyl did "nothing" for several years.15:34
DocScrutinizer05again, we don't need that shit, there i15:34
DocScrutinizer05are better energy sorces all around15:34
whitequarkwpwrak: sorry? chernobyl killed a lot of people rather immediately, the firefighting team15:35
whitequarkthen the fallout was *enormous*15:35
DocScrutinizer05it's 2people like you" who rather want nuklear power than having proper research on those elternatives. Even when the research on alternatives evidently has ZILCH risk of any mega desasters like they happen all the time with nuklear15:36
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: there's no no-go zones around fukushima today15:36
wpwrakat chernobyl people had very high exposure, but also in part due to what they did. the effects on the population at large too a long time to appear.15:36
whitequarkall have been eliminated, in less than three years15:37
DocScrutinizer05but sure, nuklear power so cooooool, there's sooo much energy on only ONE gram of matter15:37
wpwrakso fukup isn't in the clear just yet. give it a few more years, then we'll see15:37
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: zilch risk of mega disasters? I don't care whether we have mega-disasters, I care about compound health effects15:37
whitequarkand for solar panels it is very far from zero, for example15:37
whitequarkand don't forget that they degrade in 2-3 decades too.15:37
DocScrutinizer05I' quitting this futile discussion now, have fun!15:37
whitequarkdon't like being presented with facts, I see ;)15:38
whitequarkwpwrak: there's some fascinating effects at work for that15:38
whitequarkfor example, mortality in chernobyl victims is actually *lower* than in general population, despite an increase in cancers, because they're (and other problems) are detected and fixed much earlier15:39
wpwrakhehe ;-)15:39
wpwrakyes, if general health care is weak or just doesn't spot such things, then you're indeed better off in a high-risk group :)15:39
DocScrutinizer05acting like a moron doesn't help your point15:40
DocScrutinizer05not even with a ;)15:40
wpwrakbut then, you'd be even better off if you got the improved screening without the exposure. so that's not a very good argument :)15:40
whitequarkso much for not getting personal *shrug*15:40
whitequarkwpwrak: I never said it was a good argument, just a fascinating tidbit15:41
whitequarkcounter-intuitive15:41
whitequark(better screening) that actually doesn't always help15:42
whitequarke.g. take testicular cancer (I think it was this kind?). it's currently recommended to NOT screen for it, because the invasive procedures related to false positive, statistically, result in a net negative15:42
wpwraki mean as in examination, not as in absorbing15:42
wpwrakah, you mean the same :)15:42
whitequarkyeah15:43
wpwrakah yes. only screen for something you can actually cure ;-)15:43
whitequarkwell, we *can* cure it, it's just that diagnostic procedures are so bad15:43
wpwrakhow do you cure imaginary testicular cancer ? :)15:44
whitequarkso bad that you're better off waiting until the cancer manifests itself in some more visible way15:44
whitequarkoh, that's what you mean15:44
wpwrakit works both ways ;-)15:44
whitequarkI guess... by ignoring it?15:44
wpwrakyeah. of make better diagnostics15:44
wpwrak#s/of/or/15:45
whitequarkyeah, we don't really have a good way of diagnosing quite a few of cancers without sticking a huge needle in your body15:45
whitequarkand even when we have, it's nasty15:45
whitequarkbeing too eager on mammograms would actually *cause* more cancers, since it's x-ray15:46
DocScrutinizer05sorry I have to state that attributing moronic behavior to a caliming of quoting all kind of random shit as presenting facts, and then ignoring the sound arguments why those are useless even when they were facts since our people decided differntly and our evaluation shows it *is* mor expensive than anything else in toltal cost of ownership, whell that's not 'personal', that's observation of facts15:46
DocScrutinizer05claiming*15:46
Action: whitequark sighs15:46
DocScrutinizer05anyway leaving now, not because I don't like to get "confronted to your facts" but just because the discussion evidently is futile and particularly boring15:47
whitequarksame15:47
DocScrutinizer05been there a zillion times15:47
whitequarkI should rather finish my water-chip-cleaning thing and show you the final CNC setup15:48
whitequarkmuch more useful15:48
Action: wpwrak wonders how long until all the water exposure will do some damage15:50
whitequarkdamage to... what?15:51
whitequarkor do you mean the lethal dose of dihydrogen monoxide I have in this 5L tank?15:52
wpwrakthere ought to be some iron parts that get wet15:52
whitequarkyeah, a few screws15:52
whitequarkI ought to replace them, but by the point where I discovered that someone was too greedy to even use non-rusting screws they no longer screw out15:53
wpwrakand i'd be more worried about the hydroxic acid15:54
wpwrakespecially when it comes in contact with the alkaline hydrogen hydroxide15:54
whitequark... therefore doubling the damage that the mixture will inflict!15:55
wpwrakat least ! and the stuff dissolves readily in water, so it can get everywhere15:55
whitequarkhahahahaha15:56
wpwrak(rusty screws) oh, that was quick15:56
whitequarkwell, it's also possible they're just screwed in really hard15:56
whitequarksome others surely are15:56
DocScrutinizer05you definitely need immediate measures to protect and recover stuff. otherwise not only the screws but also the Al will get irrecoverably damaged15:58
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: hm, Al? how so?15:58
DocScrutinizer05Al and steel form a battery15:58
whitequarkooooooh15:58
whitequarkoh fuck15:58
whitequarka galvanic pair15:59
whitequarkyou're 100% correct15:59
DocScrutinizer05and aiui or rather *I guess* that rust does damage to the protective AlOxide coating, so your Al will dessolave like in sea water16:01
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: wait, that doesn't make sense16:01
whitequarkif they actually did, Al would dissolve instead of Fe, because Al is much more active16:01
DocScrutinizer05yes16:01
whitequarklike you put more active Zn to prevent Fe ship hull from rusting16:01
whitequarkbut Fe is rusting in my case, so there's no galvanic pair16:01
whitequark(for now)16:02
whitequarkI wonder why16:02
DocScrutinizer05the Fe rusting is not caused by galvanic process16:02
whitequarkgalvanic process would cause Fe to *not* rust16:02
whitequarkand evidently it does not16:02
DocScrutinizer05but the rust expands (volume) and crashes the AlOx16:02
whitequarkhmm16:02
whitequarkyes, that could happen16:02
whitequarkwell anyway, you're right in that I have to replace the screws. I was rather wondering why I nevertheless have rust16:03
DocScrutinizer05and rusty steel in an al thread will *never* come out again16:03
DocScrutinizer05it comes out only with the al attached to the screw16:04
DocScrutinizer05if at all16:04
whitequarkso I won't already be able to screw them out? dang16:05
DocScrutinizer05odds are it's already too late, yes16:05
DocScrutinizer05anyway use alkaline solvent to oint 16:05
DocScrutinizer05the usuall phosphoric acid to fix rust issues won't do good here16:06
whitequarkalkaline solvent would dissolve AlOx as well as FeOx16:06
DocScrutinizer05alkaline shouldn't hurt Al much16:06
DocScrutinizer05probably best is to use WD40 though16:08
DocScrutinizer05then wait a few days, redo whole process, then after a few more days try to unscrew16:08
DocScrutinizer05vacuum could help make WD40 enter into the threads16:09
DocScrutinizer05if the holes are not open to the bottom side16:09
whitequark(shouldn't hurt Al) what?16:10
whitequarkalkalines dissolve Al even with thick AlOx over it16:10
whitequarkentirely16:11
DocScrutinizer05I'm not sure what's the best screw for Al threaded holes. Maybe stainless steel, maybe brass, maybe even Al16:11
DocScrutinizer05Huh?16:11
DocScrutinizer05NaOH + Al => waht?16:11
whitequarkAlOx is an amorphous oxide, it dissolves in alkali as well as acids16:11
whitequarkafter that Al reacts with water16:11
whitequarklike Na or any other active metal16:11
whitequarkwe've did literally this experiment in uni16:12
DocScrutinizer05afaik NaOH is used for Elox16:12
DocScrutinizer05whatever, proceed on own peril16:13
whitequarkI'll try WD40, yeah16:13
whitequarkthink if I'll lubricate the screws with oil, wouldn't it stop the galvanic process?16:14
whitequarkso they'll still remain there, but now harmless16:14
whitequarkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhORLiiij3I16:14
whitequarkthat's concentrated stuff in the video, but weak one would work just as well, just slower16:16
whitequarkdon't need much alkali to dissolve 60µm or so of AlOx16:16
DocScrutinizer05quite impressive video. Didn't know that. Anyway I meant something like soap maybe with a tad of baking soda in it. But whatever, you see the lock doesn't contain any standard steel, only stainless steel and brass. Guess why!16:22
DocScrutinizer05afaik Al is not dissolving from washing it with usual soap16:23
DocScrutinizer05maybe I should have used the term detergent rather than sovent16:23
whitequarkbaking soda probably won't do much, at least not quickly16:24
whitequarkW. T. F. The new, second pump, fresh from factory, is leaking water too16:24
whitequarkwho the fuck is making these things >_<16:25
whitequarkappears to be made from thermofused (?) plastic or something. Either way, it leaks horrible through all of the seams16:26
whitequarkshould've learned not to buy russian-made the previous time16:26
DocScrutinizer05when you can find a solvent for the plastic, you can make your own cement by dissolving the plastic parts of first pump in solvent, then thoroughly applying that cement to all the crack/gaps in second pump16:28
whitequarkthey use different plastics16:29
DocScrutinizer05:-/16:29
whitequarkthe former is actually from a transparent plastic, which I think is also more brittle16:29
whitequarkit cracked just from the immense pressure of actually pumping water16:29
whitequarkit *CRACKED ITSELF*, think about it16:29
DocScrutinizer05sounds like the average low priced chinese product16:30
whitequarkand given its design, immediately as the outer hull was cracked, it started to pump water right to the motor chamber, because that's how it's designed16:30
whitequarkwhoever invented this fifty years ago is thoroughly impotent as an engineer16:30
whitequarkand whoever perpetuated this mistake of nature for all that time should've been fired16:31
whitequarkby squad16:31
whitequarkI wonder how happy are car owners when all of their windscreen washing liquid is gone after a day16:31
whitequarkbecause that's how it leaks16:31
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: oh, I know16:32
whitequarkI'll just double all seams with epoxy. I have a lot of epoxy sitting there16:32
whitequarkit's supposedly waterproof, although I guess it depends on how well would it bond with this plastic16:32
DocScrutinizer05exactly16:33
DocScrutinizer05no hope on that16:33
whitequarkalternatively I could use acetone or dichloroethane (popular solvent for children's models here) for dissolving it right in the seam16:33
DocScrutinizer05using scotch tape you got better chances16:33
whitequark(scotch tape) no way, I've glued together acrylic with epoxy16:34
whitequarkand where the epoxy layer is not broken (it was hard to achieve) it's very well waterproof16:34
whitequarkthe rest I waterproofed with silicone, but silicone would clearly not work here16:34
DocScrutinizer05this however is probably PVC, or even PE16:34
DocScrutinizer05oth won't work well with epoxy16:34
whitequarkone of those16:34
whitequarkah I see16:35
DocScrutinizer05your acetone / dichlorethane idea is worth a try, but I suggest you try to find some plastic to dissolve in it before you apply that mixture to the pump16:36
whitequarkno, not the mixture, just dichloroethane16:37
whitequarkDCE is a very potent plastic solvent on its own, it's used as "plastic glue"16:37
DocScrutinizer05will make the gaps wider insteaqd of clong them16:37
whitequarkmmm16:37
DocScrutinizer05closing* wth16:37
DocScrutinizer05only works when the parts you want to join are freely movable against each other, so you can press them together, losing some farctions of a millimeter on length of each, for forming a seam16:38
whitequarkyeah you're right16:39
whitequarkI'll prolly try epoxy first, I wonder if it works and I have it right now, unlike DCE16:39
whitequarkoutcome 1: doesn't bond well. I peel it off16:39
whitequarkoutcome 2: does bond well. Win16:39
DocScrutinizer05try roughening the plastic surface. Might help16:39
whitequarkno roughening needed, it's conveniently roughed from factory16:40
whitequarkoooh or even simpler idea16:40
DocScrutinizer05consider vaccum / low air pressure inside pump to suck in epoxy though the gaps16:40
whitequarkjust melt it locally16:40
whitequarkwhich is basically what dichloroethane would do16:41
whitequarkmelt the plastic and then evaporate16:41
DocScrutinizer05even better idea: seal it with molten plastic from another object16:41
whitequarkbut I don't have the same plastic and a different one wouldn't bond16:41
DocScrutinizer05I bet you can fins sth sufficiently similer in type16:41
DocScrutinizer05find*16:41
whitequarkhrm16:42
DocScrutinizer05it only can be one of three sorts of plastic, right?16:42
DocScrutinizer05PVC, PE, PP16:42
DocScrutinizer05(i'm no chemist or plastics expert)16:43
whitequarkthat sounds about right16:43
whitequarkbut it's still three times more choice than I need16:44
whitequarkoh god what the fuck16:44
whitequarkit ROTATES16:44
DocScrutinizer05I bet they haven't changed type of plastic while keeping the broken design16:44
whitequarkI don't even16:44
whitequarkthey just snapped plastic parts together in a way that permits them to rotate, without any sealant whatsoever, and expect it not to leak?!16:45
DocScrutinizer05LOL16:45
whitequarkoh16:45
whitequarkit just snapped in half16:45
whitequarkI mean, not broken, disassembled16:45
whitequarkI can now see this design in all of its glory and it is extremely moronic, even more moronic than I thought16:45
DocScrutinizer05are you sure that pump isn't meant to get immersed into the tank, so anything leaking would just move to the tank again?16:46
whitequarkclearly not, it doesn't have a waterproof motor chamber16:46
whitequarkin fact my previous pump is currently leaking rusty water all over the place16:46
whitequarkI'm surprised it still works at all16:46
DocScrutinizer05incredible16:46
whitequarknow scale that up 1000x, that's how all russian cars are made. no exaggeration16:47
DocScrutinizer05I can clearly see now how they breed all those gifted hackers over at your place ;-)16:47
whitequarkI'm going to show you some pics of this abomination16:47
DocScrutinizer05it's a clever master plan16:47
whitequarkwords cannot describe how awful it truly is16:47
whitequarkwell yes, it definitely bred a lot of DIY automechanics16:48
whitequarkaka auto owners16:48
DocScrutinizer05and best of all: all this results in russian stuff only useful to Russians16:49
DocScrutinizer05which comes in handy particularly for military16:49
whitequarklol16:49
DocScrutinizer05Japanese did sth similarm but on the sophistication side: all their waepons are only useful to those who started practicing with them at the age of 516:51
DocScrutinizer05similar*16:51
DocScrutinizer05yours only work when you know you have to ignore the manual and use a 8 poind hammer instead, and know how to use that right16:52
whitequarkmanual? what manual?16:54
DocScrutinizer05I knew you'd say that ;-P16:54
whitequarkthough some USSR-era tech came with rather extensive documentation16:55
whitequarka TV with complete schematics16:55
whitequarkopen-source basically!16:55
whitequarkok: http://imgur.com/a/Ad54U16:55
DocScrutinizer05that been usual practice till maybe 198016:56
whitequark2nd photo: regular air-cooled DC motor. very shitty. also VERY LOUD16:56
whitequarkthe green thing is a bearing16:56
DocScrutinizer05loading16:56
whitequark3rd photo: the water chamber and motor chamber are separated by a mere thin oil layer16:56
DocScrutinizer05stoll loading16:56
DocScrutinizer0550%16:57
DocScrutinizer0575%16:57
whitequark4th photo: turbine axle is that plastic triangular thing, poking out of inlet16:57
DocScrutinizer0590%16:57
whitequarkI figure you could imagine how the turbine looks like, it's a very simple centrifugal turbine16:57
DocScrutinizer05wow, done16:57
whitequarkone piece of plastic, without even any coupling to the axle whatsoever16:57
whitequarkit sits on the axle purely due to friction between two flat surfaces16:57
DocScrutinizer05NB this been CPU usage, _not_ download16:58
whitequarkwell, but now you can recognize even the smallest detail on the photos, for which I have spent some minutes carefully tweaking focus16:58
whitequark3rd one mainly16:58
DocScrutinizer05first advice: mount pump above max liquid level16:59
whitequarkooh by the way, does it look to you that bearing is kinda useless? no axial load16:59
whitequarkI think I know why is it there16:59
DocScrutinizer05it's not save for any increased pressure16:59
whitequarkit's there to plug into that depression and stop the water from leaking to motor chamber17:00
DocScrutinizer05it's a seal17:00
whitequark(above max liquid) not possible, for two reasons17:00
whitequarkfirst, it will simply not pump any water, because it's a centrifugal pump. it relies on water flowing into the centrifugal chamber by gravity17:00
DocScrutinizer05damn17:00
whitequarksecond, the factory-made box specifically for this pump has an opening at the very bottom line17:01
whitequarkyou're 100% right that it's not safe for any increased pressure17:01
DocScrutinizer05then the whole thing is shit prone to fail17:01
whitequarkWELL DUH17:01
whitequarkI HAVE NOTICED17:01
DocScrutinizer05at very least you should mount it contact/motor up, pump down, and make a hole to motor enclosure that allows water that leaks into that chamber to escape without soaking the motor17:02
DocScrutinizer05and you'll prolly need a ceratin amount of silicone fat to seat the green seal into it17:03
whitequarkyes, it's mounted "upside down"17:04
DocScrutinizer05seems there already been some17:04
whitequarkso the water only seems to leak from rightmost seal on 1st pic17:04
whitequarkbut it leaks like CRAZY17:04
whitequarkI for sure wouldn't expect it to make a huge puddle in mere minutes, just looking at that seal17:04
DocScrutinizer05nfc what's the 4th photo17:05
whitequarkyou're looking at the inlet17:06
whitequarkfar rightmost tube at 1st photo17:06
whitequarkthe triangular thing is the turbine "axle"17:06
whitequarkhm, I've just looked at the first pump again17:07
whitequarkand the part which is cracked is the motor chamber case, separated from water chamber17:08
DocScrutinizer05sorry I don't get it17:08
whitequarkmeaning... that the way it pumps water into motor chamber is basically by design and not by "fault"17:08
whitequarkhm?17:08
whitequarksecond pump, conveniently transparent: http://imgur.com/HzGaCmy (yes, still works)17:09
whitequarkand a close look at turbine: http://imgur.com/rteKFaj17:10
whitequarkgrm, second photo is shitty, but I couldn't get a better one17:10
whitequarkbasically, turbine is a plastic thing which from side looks like this: ¥17:11
whitequarkthe | part is the axle, the end of which you see in 1st album 4th photo 17:11
whitequarkthe _ part is the turbine itself: a plastic disc with three vertical blades on it17:12
whitequarkthe motor axle is inserted into the _ part17:12
whitequarkand then it rotates the entire ¥ thing. I have no idea why is it done that way17:13
DocScrutinizer05I guess my graphical imagination is seriaously flawed17:13
whitequarkok, let me try to draw it17:13
DocScrutinizer05I just can't see how motor axis connects to turbine axis, and I also can't see how the whole turbine compartment is sealed against the motor compartment, except for the thing with wet/oily hole in center, in #3 photo17:14
whitequarkthat wet thing, and the bearing, is the only thing that separates them17:15
DocScrutinizer05I also guess the must be some sort of spring loded force pushing the motor against the green seal17:16
DocScrutinizer05and when that thing is wet, then sth is wrong17:17
DocScrutinizer05it should be silicone fat raher than water sitting there, helping the green seal to keep stuff watertight17:18
whitequarknope, no spring loaded force17:18
whitequarkand it's "wet" with some kind of oil, not water17:18
DocScrutinizer05then how is the green seal supposed to tightly close the center hole in the "thing"17:18
whitequarkit's not pushed to the center hole with anything17:18
whitequarkbut it can't completely fall out, because the motor dimensions prevent it from doing so17:19
DocScrutinizer05when there's no force pushing it against the thing17:19
whitequarkit's a rather brutal design17:19
whitequarkI guess it can move 1-2mm back and forth there17:19
whitequarkhttp://i.imgur.com/vzuAWoG.jpg17:19
DocScrutinizer05when there's no force pushing it, then not even solicone oil/fat will help since the seal will start to rotate and kick out the fat17:20
DocScrutinizer05UGH17:20
whitequarkwell geez, I guess this is why the first pump is filled with water to the brim17:20
whitequarkstop assuming whoever designed it was actually intending for it to work, or even was sane at all :D17:21
DocScrutinizer05I guess the "thing" is missing in that drawing, right?17:21
whitequarkI especially like how the axle is supposed to rotate the turbine while highly lubricated17:21
whitequarkyes, missing17:21
whitequarkmentally add the water compartment around the turbine17:22
whitequarkthen, *behind* the water compartment, there'll be a depression with the green thing17:22
DocScrutinizer05right17:22
DocScrutinizer05make the motor push tightly against green seal and maybe everything starts to "work"17:23
whitequarkI'm rather inclined to put the entire thing into incinerator at this point17:23
DocScrutinizer05this is critical17:23
whitequarkthis design is basically17:23
whitequarkit can't work, ever17:23
whitequarkit is designed to fail in multiple complementing ways17:23
DocScrutinizer05it can't unless eal is elastic, or motor fixing is elastic17:24
DocScrutinizer05seal*17:24
whitequarkit's as if someone literally thought "how can I make the worst possible pump ever" and then proceed to implement that17:24
whitequarkoh, I was wrong, it's not a bearing17:25
whitequarkit's actually elastic17:25
whitequarkhm, another mystery solved, the axle is not round but has a slice shaved off17:26
whitequarkhence the turbine actually rotates17:26
DocScrutinizer05right, so the whole design depends on the green seal, and that ages and gets less elastic and brittle17:27
whitequarklikely17:27
DocScrutinizer05which conveniently explains why all those 15 year old spare pumps fail17:27
whitequarkhm, I wonder why it has an english logo on the back17:29
whitequark"slu"17:29
DocScrutinizer05pull off the green seal from motor axis, and put 2 or 3 washers on axis before shoving green seal on it again17:29
whitequarkright17:29
DocScrutinizer05make sure to use fresh silicone oil or rather fat before reassembly17:30
DocScrutinizer05can't use too much of that there17:30
DocScrutinizer05make sure the green seal spins easily on axis17:31
DocScrutinizer05it's not supposed to rotatae with axis, rather axis supposed to rotate inside seal17:31
DocScrutinizer05make sure the green seal spins easily on axis - even when pushed/squeezed between motor/washers and the "thing"17:32
whitequark*nod*17:33
DocScrutinizer05otoh the green seal actually must *seal* the axis so no water greeps in to motor along axis17:33
whitequarkI will now probably go sleep, too much of this tech for today17:33
DocScrutinizer05creeps*17:34
DocScrutinizer05possibly futile effort to try and revive that design, once the seal aged beyond repair17:34
DocScrutinizer05however as long as it stays elastic and seems capable to seal the axis ... give it a try, not much you could lose17:35
DocScrutinizer05you know you used sufficient amount of washers when reassembly of the moter part need a certain force to push/squeeze the green seal, a 0.5mm befor the contraption snaps into fixtures17:37
DocScrutinizer05or you approach from the "too much, too many" side, use 100 washers and remove one by one until you actually *can* reassemble17:37
DocScrutinizer05them meybe remove one more17:38
DocScrutinizer05ten maybe*17:38
DocScrutinizer05damn, I give up17:38
DocScrutinizer05my typing definitely sucks today17:38
whitequarkseems like it squeezes the seal right before snapping in, already17:38
DocScrutinizer05how tight the seal sits on axis?17:39
whitequarkfor this specific pump the problem is the seal of the water chamber itself17:39
DocScrutinizer05oooh, that's nasty then17:39
whitequarkquite tight, it rotates with very mild force. the sealant is quite thick17:39
whitequarklike peanut butter17:39
DocScrutinizer05there's a seal of water chamber to motor compartment other than the green seal?17:39
whitequarkthe water chamber is made of two injection molded (I think) parts17:40
whitequarkand the seam between these two parts leaks17:40
whitequarkthey're either glued or, more likely, fused together with heat17:40
DocScrutinizer05into the motor compartment??17:40
whitequarkno17:40
whitequarkjust outside the pump17:40
DocScrutinizer05:nod:17:40
DocScrutinizer05that's another problem17:40
whitequarkyea17:41
DocScrutinizer05(peanut butter) seems about right17:41
DocScrutinizer05you could try any type of loctite to seal that other gap from trubine to environment17:42
DocScrutinizer05even usual glue17:42
DocScrutinizer05or silicone17:42
DocScrutinizer05or a rubber ring17:42
DocScrutinizer05or whatever17:42
DocScrutinizer05magic tire repair spray17:43
DocScrutinizer05;-)17:43
DocScrutinizer05th(the shit that inflates and same time fixes your tire with some latex)17:44
whitequarkI know, yeah17:44
whitequarkI've silicone and epoxy, wonder what's better here17:44
DocScrutinizer05clearly silicone17:45
whitequarkok, that's even simpler17:45
whitequarkno need to mess with known human carcinogen17:45
whitequark(although then I look at my smoking friends and epoxy prolly fades way back in comparison)17:46
Action: DocScrutinizer05 lights a cig17:46
whitequarkit's really absurd how a factory would go to great lengths to protect the workers from even suspected carcinogens and then they go out and happily smoke17:46
whitequarkdisturbing really, if you think about it17:46
DocScrutinizer05"suspected" doesn't mean 2weak"17:47
DocScrutinizer05s/2/"/17:47
whitequark"suspected" usually means "if we feed rats 10kg per day of this, they get cancer more than usual"17:48
whitequarkwhich is true for almost anything that exists, if you look at the stats17:48
Action: whitequark shrugs17:48
whitequarkthat's beside the point really17:48
whitequarkyou shield them from what may or may not cause a tiny uptick and then they go and willingly consume large quantities of known significant carcinogens17:49
whitequarkbleargh17:49
DocScrutinizer05there might be an unknown probablility of epoxy causing cancer with 90% probability, while for smoling there might be 99% probability of causing cancer at an unknown or rather low probability17:49
whitequarkthat's not how probabilities work :o17:49
DocScrutinizer05that's how risk evaluations work17:50
whitequarkif we really had the data laid out like you just did (we don't collect it like that), one could multiply them and get a final point17:50
whitequarkwell, for exposure, you have a level and a timespan17:50
whitequark"exposure" is not a single event that may or may not happen17:50
DocScrutinizer05there's a probability hat your studies are correct, and a separate probability of a substance causing cancer17:51
DocScrutinizer05"suspected" means your studies have poor probability/evidence17:51
whitequarkwell, yes, hence you must present a mechanism for causation together with the data implying correlation17:51
whitequarkrelevant: http://tylervigen.com/17:51
whitequarkthe thing that's currently #1 there is an awesome demonstration17:52
DocScrutinizer05stdies about smoking have high evicense, but the probability of smokig actually casing cancer is "pretty low". Asbestos OTOH has a teribly high probability to cause lung cancer, but the evicence of studies is weak17:54
whitequarkah, I see what you've meant17:54
whitequarkthat's right17:54
whitequarktook me 3 times to understand :S17:55
DocScrutinizer05I'm amazed you understood it at all, with all the typos17:55
whitequarkI did ponder for some time what "evicense" is17:56
whitequarkbtw, my silicone is weird18:02
whitequarkit's basically mostly gelatinous, but sometimes it has chunks of almost hard silicone and sometimes liquid pours out18:03
pcercueiS2new boobs?18:03
DocScrutinizer05eeew18:03
DocScrutinizer05get a new can, possibly rather acrylic18:04
whitequarkwhat even is the state it's supposed to be in?18:04
DocScrutinizer05I think acrylic is more convenient than silicone anyway18:04
whitequarkhmm18:04
whitequarkit was a challenge to find silicone in *not* huge industrial container18:05
DocScrutinizer05ok, no, you raher use silicone for *this*18:05
DocScrutinizer05http://www.befestigungsfuchs.de/blog/wann-acryl-und-wann-silikon-verwenden/18:05
whitequarkthat's supposed to be used with a huge metal one-way thing that pushes the plunger18:05
DocScrutinizer05http://www.petec.de/index.php?id=243 yeah sure18:06
whitequarkI see18:07
whitequarkgoogle translate is awesome at first link: "This means you should a joint of the rubbery sealant free and this can be beautiful like pulling a rubber snake, then it is this is a silicone."18:07
whitequark"beautiful like pulling a rubber snake"18:07
whitequarkI don't even know18:07
DocScrutinizer05http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKTah_cvtZ018:08
DocScrutinizer05"use silicone when wtaer is first concern"  acrylic is more for non-sealing gaps that you want to paint18:09
DocScrutinizer05WTF forget that youtube18:09
whitequarkthe people in it look so confused18:10
whitequarkhttp://www.openbooktoronto.com/sites/default/files/obt/illustrations/I%20have%20no%20idea.jpg18:10
DocScrutinizer05http://www.pattex.de/do-it-yourself-mit-pattex-klebstoffe-produkte-new/pattex-klebstoffe/fugendichtungsmassen/kueche-silikon.html18:11
whitequarkyeah I can easily buy those huge cans18:11
whitequarkbut then it's a PITA to apply to all of my parts, tiny in comparison18:11
DocScrutinizer05there's a 100ml can18:12
DocScrutinizer05or use putty ;-)18:12
DocScrutinizer05or even http://www.pattex.de/do-it-yourself-mit-pattex-klebstoffe-produkte-new/pattex-klebstoffe/bastelkleber/Multi Alleskleber.html18:13
DocScrutinizer05oh nope. Water soluble, wash-out18:14
whitequarknever even seen that18:14
whitequarkwhy doesn't it say what chemical is that adhesive based on?18:15
whitequarkor even, why is there no MSDS on the website?18:15
DocScrutinizer05no idea. I bet somewhere there is18:16
DocScrutinizer05pretty usual glue should do anyway for sealing that turbine gap18:16
whitequarkodd. the Pattex logo is identical to russian company "Moment", but russian is absent from language list18:16
whitequarkthere's even bulgarian Moment: http://www.moment.bg/bg.html18:17
whitequarkis it possible that the Moment that operates in RU for decades is in fact a ripoff? I bet it is18:17
whitequarkah no, operated by Henkel Rus.18:18
whitequarkthe product line is completely different(ly labeled) though18:19
whitequarkno equivalent for the thing you found18:19
DocScrutinizer05google for "gap sealing" or "gap filling"18:24
DocScrutinizer05+ silicone18:24
DocScrutinizer05or use any permanent-elasitc water-resistant universal glue18:25
DocScrutinizer05or check out what loctite has18:26
whitequarkjust sealed it with silicone18:26
whitequarkwe'll learn tomorrow whether it works18:27
DocScrutinizer05http://www.loctite.co.uk/gasketing-4478.htm18:27
DocScrutinizer05( "about Henkel" :-P )18:29
whitequarkoddly, the loctite lineup is the same18:29
DocScrutinizer05Henkel is huuuuge18:30
DocScrutinizer05almost like nestle´18:30
DocScrutinizer05for many stuff there's only Henkel and Procter&Gamble18:31
DocScrutinizer05soap, washing detergents etc18:31
whitequarkthere's like five conglomerates which own the entire market18:31
DocScrutinizer05tooth paste18:31
whitequarkregardless of what brands may lead you to believe18:31
whitequarkhttps://www.lokujobs.com/assets/Filemanager-master/userfiles/10-food-brands.jpg18:32
whitequarkand similar for practically any consumer product18:33
DocScrutinizer05oh yeah Unilever18:34
DocScrutinizer05for your usecase any gue will do ;-)18:38
DocScrutinizer05goo 18:38
DocScrutinizer05I hope you got proper silicone fat for the green seal seat18:39
DocScrutinizer05though you probably frist should test if that's silicone fat or hydrocarbon based fat they used there18:41
DocScrutinizer05I guess you could test by trying to use soap to wash it off18:41
DocScrutinizer05but then... given everybody is supposed to use soap in their windshield washing water...18:42
DocScrutinizer05I bet it must be silicone fat18:42
DocScrutinizer05not only my typing but also my English sucks today :-/18:44
DocScrutinizer05I guess you could test by using soap to try and wash it off18:45
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