#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2014-05-28

wpwraknicksydney: thanks ! hmm, at the moment, the help i need most right now is in getting that biz framework. without it, and soon, the project is doomed. so if you happen to have an MBA or such, or know people who may want to run such a thing, that would be very useful.00:28
wpwraknicksydney: on the technical side, i'm preparing the next board version. but that's not something with easily shareable work.00:29
nicksydneywpwrak: i believe personally that you will have more success if we go towards crowdsourcing style (which i read you have looked at).. the other thing is perhaps look at selling it through tindie.com ?00:29
wpwraktinie looks like a shop ? naw, that's not what i need now00:32
wpwraki still need to complete prototype design. then make the "alpha" round of devices. then the "beta" round. then out to the masses.00:33
whitequarkwpwrak: I wonder how can you afford to dedicate so much time to OSHW00:34
whitequark(and IRC)00:34
wpwrakR&D and alpha need financing but don't really provide a "product" to sell00:34
wpwrakwhitequark: don't worry, it won't last ...00:34
whitequarknow *that* makes me worry00:35
wpwrak(R&D, alpha financing) hence my idea for "crowdfinancing", e.g., via a coop. not entirely sure whether that makes sense, would need some looking into by someone who knows about such stuff.00:36
wpwrakbeta and mass could use traditional crowdfunding, although i would prefer to distribute via resellers, since that takes away a lot of trouble00:37
wpwrakwhitequark: for that matter, me too :)00:39
whitequarkyou could set up a farm00:40
wpwraknot a good time. winter is coming. no harvest for a while.00:41
whitequarkthat depends on which house are you from...00:43
wpwrakbesides, internet access is pretty difficult from most farms. and expensive.00:43
wpwrakhmm, the branch of my family that came from a "house" went in a different direction00:44
whitequark(internet access) couldn't you, idk, just lay a few kilometers of fiber optics?00:52
whitequarkGPON is all the rage, it can't be expensive anymore00:52
wpwrakand then connect to the next farm. without internet access :)00:54
whitequarkhmm, I see an opportunity for becoming an ISP!00:54
wpwrakrun a local facebook clone in the basement and sell the neighbour's personal secrets to .. whom ? :)00:56
whitequarkto his wife!01:05
wpwrakthen both will come and kill me01:07
whitequarkwise people.01:16
nicksydneywpwrak: just out of curiosity how much longer and how much is needed to make anelok to reach it's mass production state ?02:05
nicksydneyi have few ideas that i want to throw at you who knows maybe it will stick :)02:11
wpwrakthat would depend on how the beta goes. beta could be self-sufficient, but again that would depend on whether people are willing to pay USD ~200 for a kit (beta would still have high production cost)02:15
wpwrakto get that far, i guess something like 15 kUSD should be enough. time ... 2 months + alpha + alpha results02:16
nicksydneyso with $15K you will get to the state of a ready-to-made-production anelok ? or further testing required ?02:16
wpwrakalpha would be device kits suitable for interested developers. so, very rough.02:22
wpwrakalpha: anelok, ybox, fixtures.02:22
wpwrakbeta: would be similar, but working towards industrializing the process. anelok + ybox.02:22
wpwrakmass production would get "proper" cases. that's expensive (can be in the order of 100 kUSD, but that depends a bit on the volume we have. there are also cheaper options.), to crowdfunding would have to pay for that.02:24
nicksydneyso pretty much i can see you are aiming at alpha + beta first ? 02:25
nicksydneyand then once that works out than aim for mass production (expensive option) ?02:25
wpwrakfor mp everything must be perfectly right02:33
wpwrakwoudn't want to have a 1 MUSD+ mass-grave at my hands :)02:33
nicksydneyhave you ever thought about hardware incubator ?02:37
nicksydneyyou have something like this company https://angel.co/highway1 02:37
wpwrakhmm, sounds US-centric02:47
nicksydneylooking at anelok i think they will go and fund you i'm confident :)02:52
wpwraktheir program seems to consist of a ton of supplemental things. all of them useful, i'm sure, but half a world away, not so03:01
DocScrutinizer05half a world literally03:03
DocScrutinizer05hey, at least you coukd get another few bottles of klipshift at South Africa while traveling there ;-)03:04
whitequarkwhy do I have "Beamtenlaufbahn, 22846 Norderstedt, Deutschland" starred on gmaps? O_o03:05
whitequarkyou can "star" locations on google maps, to remember them03:06
whitequarkI have that address starred. I have absolutely no idea why03:06
wpwrakklipdrift from SA isn't quite on the way to the US ;-)03:06
DocScrutinizer05Beamtenlaufbahn is a pretty fuzzy job position description, not an addr03:06
DocScrutinizer05US, sounded like they are cebtered around China03:07
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: ooooh, that explains it03:07
whitequarkit's a dead end03:07
DocScrutinizer05Beamtenlaufbahn is probbaly a dead end, yes03:08
whitequarkI mean literally.03:08
wpwrakmaybe it's your future self who made that entry. maybe in the future, they do cool things on those "dead end" jobs, like time travel ;-)03:08
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: you looked for jobs03:09
whitequarkor http://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=53.7065769%2C9.9939506#map=19/53.70658/9.9940703:09
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: look at the map :p03:09
whitequarkthere is literally a street called Beamtenlaufbahn which is a dead end03:09
DocScrutinizer05next to deutsche bank and Hamburger sparkasse. Hmm no "Beamte" there03:11
DocScrutinizer05wait wait wait.... "Rathausapotheke"03:12
whitequarkoh, distracted by homophones03:13
DocScrutinizer05err the heck...03:13
wpwrakit's on OSM, too03:13
DocScrutinizer05town hall03:13
DocScrutinizer05lots of officials there03:14
DocScrutinizer05clerk, civil servant, whatever03:15
DocScrutinizer05Beamte halt eben03:15
DocScrutinizer05I guess you can't translate the german term "Beamter"03:16
whitequark"official" ?03:17
whitequarkhehe, Lingvo offers two examples for "Beamter": ein hoher Beamter & ein bestechlicher Beamter03:18
DocScrutinizer05both pretty good examples03:44
DocScrutinizer05"Beamte" are paid by some official authority and generally can't get fired, and are quite commonly frowned upon for a) laziness or sleeping during working hours, and b) their high pension03:47
DocScrutinizer05laufbahn is an ambiguous term, which turns the street name pretty much into a pun03:51
DocScrutinizer05it can mean "carrier" as well as literally something or somebody moving along a guided path03:52
DocScrutinizer05"wie kam der denn ins Rathaus?"  "Ueber die Beamtenlaufbahn"  --  I bet some fools must have pissed themselves from laughing03:56
wpwrakfools ? it seems to be a rather clever hack - they hacked the street naming system :)04:02
wpwrakoh, and didn't we have some cats vs. dogs discussions ? here's a nice video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Opm9b2WDk04:08
wpwrak(made it even to news in argentina yesterday, after the dog was put down)04:09
DocScrutinizer05WTF? "sign in to confirm your age"04:13
wpwrakah, maybe over here then ? www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24564351/internet-legend-tara-the-cat-to-throw-out-first-pitch-in-class-a-game04:14
wpwrakyou get to see some scratches04:15
wpwrakwell, dog bites04:15
wpwrakso you'll feel good in the knowledge that this dog ain't gonna bite nobody anymore04:15
DocScrutinizer05THREE cameras - honestly now? looks like fake, or a paranoid dude who placed cameras incl recording everywhere around his house04:30
whitequarkAperture Science Water Aggregation Apparatus: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bosqk0DIIAA9Tyh.jpg:large05:15
whitequarkaggregates water pretty well05:15
nicksydneyRockchip to Design Intel x86 SoFIA SoCs for Android Tablets - http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/05/28/rockchip-x86-soc-intel/#ixzz32zAFPlzA05:33
nicksydneyintel is running out of idea...they want to 'flood' the market with cheapie tablets now :)05:33
nicksydneyfor MIPS people this is good news http://www.prplfoundation.org/engineering-projects/05:34
whitequarknever underestimate intel. someone's market valuation is their pocket change05:34
whitequarkand inelegant solutions may still be disturbingly effective05:34
nicksydneyno doubt about it...that's how it works the first time when Android was released :)...flood the market and it will eventually roll on its own05:36
nicksydneywpwrak: http://hackaday.com/2014/05/27/developed-on-hackaday-front-panels-and-beta-testers-program/11:14
wpwrakoh, perl is (finally) learning old tricks about parameter passing: search.cpan.org/~rjbs/perl-5.20.0/pod/perlsub.pod#Signatures13:54
wpwrakso @_ did get too suckish eventually. nice :)13:54
larscalmost like php now :013:59
wpwrakthere's also progress towards making every conceivable line noise syntactically correct perl: search.cpan.org/~rjbs/perl-5.20.0/pod/perlref.pod#Postfix_Dereference_Syntax14:00
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: relevant to our discussion: a diy sla printer: http://hackaday.com/2014/05/28/openexposer-the-diy-sla-printer/14:20
DocScrutinizer05sorry, quite distracted now by some other sad stuff14:21
DocScrutinizer05Nikolaus finally killed Neo900, because of... duh, communication problems14:21
DocScrutinizer05or maybe because of some strange sentiments 14:22
DocScrutinizer05I really don't know14:23
whitequarkwait, how do you mean "killed" ?14:23
DocScrutinizer05terminated, excuted, shot in the forehead14:24
wpwraki'd rather call that perfectly coordinated teamwork14:29
whitequarkwpwrak: hm?14:30
wpwrakwhitequark: joerg basically forced nik's hand14:31
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: werner has his own ideas about whose fault this been14:31
DocScrutinizer05Nikolaus insisting in me doing something basically illegal. I refused14:33
DocScrutinizer05insisting in demanding that I do...14:34
whitequarkillegal? related to funds transfer I guess?14:34
DocScrutinizer05the whole funds transfer been meant to sort out the problem that Nik on his donation page had a fineprint that turned the donations into preorder contracts. Nik insisted in Neo900 UG doing same mistake again, or otherwise he's not willing to transfer the funds14:36
wpwrak... and before we could try to negotiate a consensus both could agree on, joerg barged ahead and snatched defeat from the jaws of success.14:37
DocScrutinizer05since I refused to do (and my advisers and lawyers forbid me to do), he accused me of >> I am not participating in willingly cheating customers by deliberately concealing information [...] Either Jörg makes a good neo900.org/something page clearly telling the rules instead of trying to hide something or I won't help with any direct transfer to him.<< 14:38
wpwrakcorrect process: both of you meet and talk about your two stories, just to make sure you know what agree and what you disagree with. then you do to a lawyer, tell him your story and listen to what he has to say. it's not that difficult.14:39
DocScrutinizer05I'm not hiding *anything* - I'm just not allowed to post there on this page that Neo900 UG of course will still rebate the devices like we always announced and explained. For Nik that's identical to scam when I don't do this prohibited statement there on that particular page, he wasn't willing to point to other sources of same info of which there been plenty offered to him14:40
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: the fuck I won't visit a lawyer for that. I wouldn't know how to pay such loawyer (unlike Nik I only had a few 1000 expenses on Neo900 project and now am broke) and also I wouldn't know what to ask the lawyer for14:41
wpwrakhe could still say that there's indeed no common ground, but all these actions were based on the mere assumptions of people not educated in the field14:42
DocScrutinizer05absolutely not14:42
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: well, i proposed a solution for that as well. but of course, by then you already had "created facts"14:42
DocScrutinizer05guess why I had dozens of appointments with my tax adviser last few months, and why I talked to several friends who are lawyers14:43
wpwrakyes, and they only heard your side and your interpretation of nik's side14:43
DocScrutinizer05no, they only told me about facts pretty unrelated to Nik14:44
DocScrutinizer05actually the stopped me each single time I tried to give them background about Nik and GDC. Since Neo900 UG is not responsible for what GDC does14:45
wpwrakand i'm sure nik's advisors did the same on his side. as i said, "lawyers like that". conflict is the business14:45
DocScrutinizer05conflict is GDC trying to force Neo900 UG to do things so GDC has somebody else to point at14:46
wpwrakwhich is how it should be done. with the money comes the responsibility for it.14:47
DocScrutinizer05so what?14:47
DocScrutinizer05it's not GDC's money14:48
wpwrakthat's the problem, yes. GDC is responsible towards others.14:48
DocScrutinizer05GDC refunding, GDC is out. 14:48
wpwrakthat's what he's doing now14:48
DocScrutinizer05it's NOT GDC's business to help donors make a decision what to do with their money14:49
wpwrakwhat was lost is the opportunity to move funds directly to neo900 ug14:49
wpwrakif he just refunds back to the origin, it isn't14:49
DocScrutinizer05which is actually just Nik refusing to offer donors a pretty normal and correct way to define the destinationb account they want to receive their refund on14:50
wpwrakso he's doing precisely what you asked him to do. don't complain then.14:50
DocScrutinizer05I don't complain14:50
DocScrutinizer05I just state Nik is trying to force Neo900 UG to do stuff I clearly told him my lawyers think is illegal14:51
DocScrutinizer05I won't do such stuff14:51
DocScrutinizer05He doesn't want to suggest his customers to transfer money to Neo900 UG? Fine, *I* asked them to do. 14:52
wpwrakhe was prepared to do that but wanted to make sure the implications were not misunderstood. he did get feedback that people were confused. so he wanted to be clear. alas, both of you followed the advice of your advisors, never even presenting them with the complete problem14:52
wpwrak(direct transfer) well, let's see how that goes ...14:53
DocScrutinizer05the "complete problem2 been "create a donations pafge that's legal" - which I accomplished14:54
DocScrutinizer05meh, I have other things to do in my life too14:55
DocScrutinizer05the whole point being that we MUST NOT promise rebates for donations, or the donation will turn into a purchase, and even an illegal purxhase since we don't know if we even can deliver. Every donor (now customer) could sue us not only for money back but even for criminal cheating and also ask for recompensation for whatever damage we did to her/him. Thus I stuck out my neck as far as >>The spirit, idea and concept behind the 15:34
DocScrutinizer05donation remains the same, so for our donors nothing relevant will change, but we can't do it with that fineprint we had so far[...] Legally this turns your donation from whatever it's right now in the notion of german Tax Office into a true clean donation to Neo900 UG,<<  15:34
DocScrutinizer05and even >>whatever you choose from those two options, it will roll back any agreement you had with GDC. The Neo900 UG will stick to the spirit and result of same agreement in case you decide to transfer your donation.<< but that's not been enough for Nik.  -- he went >>Either Jörg makes a good neo900.org/something page clearly telling the rules instead of trying to hide something or I won't help with any direct transfer to him.[...15:34
DocScrutinizer05]If he does not want to do this and save money or efforts, I don't understand why I should take any additional burdens from his shoulders. Does he think I am the one to solve his problems? And protect him from risks by generously taking them over? This is my last word to this topic, since I am repeating myself for several days.<<15:34
whitequarkseems like the last straw was you publishing the text without permission15:39
whitequarkwhich isn't very nice imo15:39
DocScrutinizer05sorry, this text been the text Dos1, wpwrak and *me* worked on for last three days. I don't think I need allowance by Nikolaus to publish it15:40
DocScrutinizer05copyright violation? ROTFL15:40
whitequarkeven if you don't legally need one, I would still ask him, as a courtesy... oh well, your decisions.15:41
wpwrak(must not promise) i think we all understand that. the keyword is "promise". that's what the lawyer was recommended for, basically to figure out how to make the assurances you want to give without turning them into a formal promise.15:41
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: that's outright impossible15:42
wpwrakyou know nothing, john snow ;-)15:42
wpwrakbut yes, it's difficult. particularly since nik then may have to warn people what they're "losing" (in terms of formal promise, not your intentions, which don't change). and you have to agree with what that warning says.15:43
DocScrutinizer05when YOU have the 2 dozen lawyers to defend your ass from everybody and his dog PLUS tax office sueing you in *Germany* for scam and tax evation, then go ahead write that finerpint to your order page, which evades "promise" but still sounds nice to users15:43
wpwrakwell, that's what some lawyers train for doing15:44
wpwrakand let's not forget that most of this conflict exists on your side, without even considering GDC, since you want both suggestion to the community and non-promise to the rest of the world. you have to give up something there, but there may be a way to make what you give up not so bad.15:47
DocScrutinizer05sorry that's blabla16:09
DocScrutinizer05Nik insists in a legally binding pronise16:10
DocScrutinizer05promise, which my lawyers frobid. Nik refuses to continue even discussing the issue16:10
DocScrutinizer05don't expect me back befor next week16:11
DocScrutinizer05*I* have ZILCH problems with this transfer, GDC has problems offering their customers an option to decide where to refund them16:13
kristianpaulah damn, i'm always behind the news..16:41
wpwrakfive days !16:44
kristianpaulI need to improved the topic keywords to highlight on my irssi16:45
whitequark" 21:36
whitequarkThere has been the question if we can directly transfer your refund to Neo900 UG.21:36
whitequarkLet's say it this way: we don't recommend it. Because we don't know if you should agree the different conditions or not. If we recommend it, it means that we find the new conditions good and recommendable.21:36
whitequarkBut we transfer the money to any bank account you specify and instruct us.21:36
whitequarkAnd, please use this "Notes" tool on the web shop order page (see link at the end of this mail) for providing the bank account data since it makes it a little easier to associate it to the order records.21:36
whitequarkWhat we need:21:36
whitequarkName + IBAN (+BIC if you have it). If we have problems doing the transfer we will contact you.21:36
wpwrakhe's not so good with words today21:44
wpwrakwell, tonight for him21:44
DocScrutinizer05who's "we"?22:05
DocScrutinizer05pluralis majestatis?22:05
whitequarkroyal we, apparently22:05
whitequarkI'm assuming you were kept in the dark about this announcement as well?22:06
DocScrutinizer05sure, which announcement?22:06
whitequarkthe text above just got mailed to all Neo900 contributors22:07
DocScrutinizer05I'm not a contributor22:07
whitequarkwell, duh; but as the head of Neo900 UG (right?) I would expect you to know about this change...22:08
DocScrutinizer05right, I'm head and CEO and only employee and member of Neo900 UG, and I don't receive anything like such info from GDC22:09
Action: DocScrutinizer05 looks at >>I don't have anything personally against Jörg (he is a nice guy and we share a lot of ideas and visions) and I am not chasing/stalking/bashing him<< and shrugs22:12
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: if you promise to behave, i'll forward it to you :)22:12
DocScrutinizer05I will behave, I#m afk in 5 min22:12
wpwrakvery good :)22:13
DocScrutinizer05this whole kindergarden is way beyond what my tortured nind is able to cope with22:13
wpwrakit seems that everyone is tired ...22:13
DocScrutinizer05you have no idea!22:13
DocScrutinizer05when it seems my kbd hangs, it's me laying on the keys22:14
DocScrutinizer05just lemme forward a quote22:16
DocScrutinizer05[2014-05-28 Wed 18:14:24] <teleshoes> theres totally an implicit "i really think youd be wiser waiting for something else cooler"22:16
DocScrutinizer05[2014-05-28 Wed 18:14:44] <teleshoes> and an EXPLICIT downplaying of neo90022:16
DocScrutinizer05[2014-05-28 Wed 18:15:11] <teleshoes> he couldnt have picked a more passive-aggressive way of phrasing things if he tried, imo22:16
wpwraki knew you'd bring that up :)22:17
wpwrakwell, he does have some doubts whether you'll be able to run the project without GDC. you said yourself that you're not sure about this yourself, and need to think about it.22:18
wpwraknow, he's expected to say something now. so it seems that his misgiving are creeping in. i don't think he does that intentionally. freudian slips all over it.22:19
DocScrutinizer05sorry, this reads totally different here, and at teleshoes' end22:19
whitequarkthat's really the worst possible way to handle the issue22:20
whitequarkespecially given he's a business owner and not just some random internet guy22:20
whitequarkwpwrak: how do you call this kind of a wire fixture? http://imgur.com/O9xcgQu22:49
whitequarkand the relevant thing that you put on the wire itself (damn terminology)22:49
wpwraklet's see ...22:51
wpwrakTerminal Blocks - Wire to Board ?22:52
wpwrakand the thingy would be the clamp22:53
whitequark"screw terminal" would describe it, wouldn't it?22:54
wpwraksee here for example22:54
wpwraki suppose it would be understood, yes22:55
wpwrakhmm, open electronics cages in an environment with dust, soon also metal dust, water, ... ?23:36
whitequarkwpwrak: it's shielded by an acrylic sheet23:45
whitequarkand it was open before, the control box conveniently had large holes on the CNC-facing part23:45
whitequarkbecause that fucking enormous transformer converted like 50% of input power to heat23:45
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