#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2014-05-25

DocScrutinizer05top ten famous misconceptions?00:46
DocScrutinizer05like "who ever needs more than 640kB RAM in his computer"?00:47
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: also aiui the recent devicetree crap in kernel makes it almost impossible to NOT boot on different systems, resp to build a device specific kernel space at all01:24
DocScrutinizer05seems absolutely everything in kernel space is universal now and just configures itself according to devicetree, during boot. No?01:25
DocScrutinizer05anything that doesn't has no chance at all to go upstream01:26
wpwraki just wonder if there's any significant number of people who'd actually use a gta04 and a neo900 in parallel02:47
wpwrakalso, subtract these who are more than capable of helping themselves, if anything goes wrong02:47
wpwrakand the world is full of binaries that can probably do much worse things to the neo900. we don't worry about these either, do we ? :)02:48
DocScrutinizer05I don't see where you're aiming at. We need a proper hw latform ID on Neo900, sth that's more than "rev 7 of GTA04" encoded into 3 bits02:55
wpwrakDocScrutinizer05: i just mean the whole concept of putting a kernel/system on the wrong platform. it's simply not a common occurrence in real life. but yes, you need that ID, though for other reasons.11:34
whitequarkwpwrak: any idea for a victim material other than wood?12:35
whitequarkooh, hm, say some soft plastic (NOT acrylic). MDPE?12:36
whitequarkI wonder where can I get a thick sheet of MDPE12:36
whitequarkwow, it is *expensive*. 12mm sheet 1500x3000 is over $25012:41
wpwrak12 mm - why so thick ? 1-2 mm would be plenty13:04
wpwrakpertinax is also good. not sure how well it resists water, though, being modified paper13:04
wpwraksoft plastic sounds like a good idea. i guess even acrylic wouldn't be all bad, given that you'd have coolant all around it13:06
whitequarkwpwrak: I eventually selected a 3mm sheet from amazon; RU vendors don't send it in lesss than 2000x1000 sizes, and I already have enough crap lying around13:08
whitequark(acrylic not bad) but what if I want to cut up a PCB or wood, where there's no coolant?13:08
whitequarkit'll cost me even more broken endmills13:09
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: http://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Shipping-65ft-75ft-GalliumSource-LLC/dp/B0051HBSI013:09
whitequarkread the reviews and Q&A, they're priceless13:09
whitequark5 stars "Don't light indoors. Don't light indoors with it cut up and mixed with potassium nitrate."13:09
whitequark6 of 6 people found the following review helpful13:09
whitequarkby the way, if the coolant keeps being thrown around like that, I'll verify DocScrutinizer05's suggestion about immersing PC underwater13:15
whitequarkI would have already cut up a box to enclose the CNC machine in, but I need a bigger CNC machine to make that box13:15
whitequarkad inifinitum13:16
DocScrutinizer05I *asked* if you *did* it. Never _suggested_ it13:16
DocScrutinizer05for your "box" I anyway *suggest* using a 5mm steel wire to bend a rectangle shape and stick plastic foil sheets to it to make a nice curtain around your CNC13:18
whitequarkooooh, that's actually a very great idea13:19
DocScrutinizer05much more convenient than a *box*13:19
DocScrutinizer05and cheaper13:19
DocScrutinizer05once your CNC station is finalized, I probably should get a poster to stick to my wall above my desk13:21
DocScrutinizer05I'll use a transparent marker pen of my fav color then, to mark all the details I would've done exactly same way ;-)13:22
whitequarksure, you'll have plenty of images of it13:23
DocScrutinizer05actually I guess I will use up two markers ;-P13:23
DocScrutinizer05of course depends on how far those last, and on size of poster13:24
Action: whitequark is cutting up some more acrylic13:24
whitequarkand for I think the first time, I do it during the daytime13:25
DocScrutinizer05friggin EU elections, have to leave my flat for that, stop the hell spawn TTIP13:25
whitequarkoh crap13:25
DocScrutinizer05EU-US free trade shit13:25
whitequark"free trade" aka "we get to control you even more than now", right?13:26
DocScrutinizer05US assraping whole EU13:26
DocScrutinizer05us companies (!!) can sue EU states(!!) for billions of compensation when they are not happy with EU laws13:26
DocScrutinizer05court is a commission of "experts" meeting behind closed doors13:27
DocScrutinizer05is bisphenol-A forbidden for food packaging plastic in US now, or not?13:33
DocScrutinizer05and BEER!! what they sell as "beer" is US is ridiculous13:34
whitequarktl;dr: no. The National Toxicology Program does not make regulatory recommendations. With respect to neurological and developmental outcomes of BPA, the Program stated that additional research is needed to more fully assess the functional, long-term impacts of exposures to bisphenol A on the developing brain and behavior.[13:35
whitequark(as of 2013 at least)13:35
DocScrutinizer05supporting the industrys actions   facilitating the development   supporting efforts   FDA is seeking   FDA is not recommending13:36
DocScrutinizer05thought as much13:36
DocScrutinizer05EU forbids production of vacuum cleaner with more than dunno 1000W, starting RSN. Wonder what US manufacturers will think about it13:38
wpwrakit's silly restriction anyway13:39
whitequarkthe hell EU has against vacuum cleaners?13:39
DocScrutinizer05well, actually I think the EU is plain wrong here, but it nevertheless would be a first quite obvious case for US companies sue EU states for not allowing the US products on their market13:39
wpwrakbut yes, free trade = subjugation13:40
DocScrutinizer05EU wants to ban inefficient products and improve the overall energy efficiency. They are idiots to start with stuff like incandescent lamps and vacuum cleaners13:41
DocScrutinizer05and they are absolute indiotic jackasses to *forbid* that stuff nstead of simply charging it with taxes to make it inattractive13:41
whitequarkcontraband vacuum cleaners!13:42
whitequarkwelcome to 21st century13:43
wpwrakseems that they took some hints from exemplary countries like venezuela and argentina13:44
wpwrakanyway, gotta get ready for the feast13:44
DocScrutinizer05first think EU should forbid are single-block aircons - the ones that have a tube out the open(!) window for blowing out the hot air from heat pump. Of course for each cunic meter of hot air the monoblock blows out the window, somewhere new hot air from outside enters the room13:49
DocScrutinizer05thing* - damn!13:49
DocScrutinizer05those are really about the most stupic technical devices I ever seen13:50
DocScrutinizer05if at least they had TWO tubes, one for blowing out the heated air, and another one for getting fresh not-so-hot air from outside, for cooling the condenser... but noooo, they take the air for cooling the condenser from the room air13:51
DocScrutinizer05the same air they just cooled down on evaporator side, and then they heat it up again and blow it out the window13:52
DocScrutinizer05it's actually surprising that those critters are able to lower room temperature at all13:52
DocScrutinizer05EU does some good regulations as well, e.g. for fridges13:53
DocScrutinizer05at least I guess they do13:54
DocScrutinizer05anyway with TTIP we had to eat all their toxic waste, since we couldn't even tell where there's none of it in any of our food13:55
DocScrutinizer05and of course we couldn't even sue the US microwave ofen manufacturer for not telling EU citizens to "not use oven to dry cat!"13:58
DocScrutinizer05So basically US companies can sell in EU the crap they can't sell in US13:59
DocScrutinizer05as long as they were _allowed_ to sell it, just would break their neck since US customers would sue them13:59
DocScrutinizer05in EU no risk of getting sued, so... "Oh damn! stop shipping to US, direct all shipments to EU!"14:01
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: I already seriously pondered to contraband incandescent lamps14:02
DocScrutinizer05for my bathroom I planned electric heater not made of two heater blowers or silly ugly stuff like http://www.heizstrahler-direkt.de/infrarot-heizstrahler/bad-sanitar.html but rather have a 300 dimmed 40W incandescent lamps all over the wall14:04
DocScrutinizer05but noooooo, incandescent lamps are *forbidden*, even for heating purposes14:05
DocScrutinizer05well, I still could get halogen incandescent, but they cost "more than gold"14:08
DocScrutinizer05meh! http://www.gluehbirne.de/?ref=a114:11
DocScrutinizer05http://www.gluehbirne.de/10-x-OSRAM-Halogen-Eco-Gluehbirne-30W-40W-230V-E27-Classic-A-PRO-64542_1  -  for classic non-halogen this would be like 30ct per unit, not 1EUR5014:13
DocScrutinizer05while now they are of course 3 times as expensive, but I'm amazed that awesome shop still offers them:  http://www.gluehbirne.de/100-x-PHILIPS-Gluehbirne-40W-E27-MATT-Gluehlampe-Gluehbirnen-Gluehlampen-40-Watt_114:15
whitequarkidiotic, right14:20
DocScrutinizer05osram: dimming a 100W incandescent to level of a 60W increases livespan by factor 1014:34
DocScrutinizer05i.e. 10,000h14:35
DocScrutinizer05"level" means lumen, the 100W eats a 78W to create the same lumen like a genuine 60W at 100%14:36
DocScrutinizer05since I want to use them for heating, I actually _want_ that reduction in "efficiency", that's the primary reason why I dim them. 14:37
DocScrutinizer05that's great I found this shop14:37
DocScrutinizer05I still can realize my bathroom heater project14:38
DocScrutinizer05actually this article (sorry, german) is quite instructive: http://www.osram.de/osram_de/nachhaltigkeit/nachhaltige-produkte/nachhaltigkeitskriterien/primaere-leistungsmerkmale/lebensdauer/index.jsp15:00
kyaki can easily find 250 W infrared lamps in Russia (made specially for heating) -dunno if it's the case for Germany16:02
DocScrutinizer51well yeah, you can find all sorts of lamps, just the very common and cheap E27 60W or 100W are outlawed16:09
DocScrutinizer51halogen still allowed but only clear, no matte. Attention, Idiots Ahead!16:11
kyakyeah, i think 100W E27 are becoming rare here as well..16:13
kyak60W are still widely available16:13
DocScrutinizer51once they were 4 a buck, at every supermarket16:13
whitequarkdo people... *eat* sulfur? O_o16:40
larscI wonder if that just isn't a bought comment18:31
DocScrutinizer05SO2 treatment is an age old pretty common - for some food and beverage - conservation method18:39
DocScrutinizer05https://www.google.com/search?q=geschwefelt    dang18:41
Action: DocScrutinizer05 ponders about occasions where use of term "conservation of conversation" was appropriate/possible18:42
Action: whitequark is trying to make a lens with his CNC, just for fun18:59
whitequarka simple parabolic one18:59
DocScrutinizer51hmmmm thats prolly a quite demanding task19:02
whitequarkthe machine has .05mm repeat positioning accuracy, but apparently a single step is somewhere between 10-20 micron19:21
whitequarkso if I don't need repeat positioning with that precision, but just want to make a helix, it could work out pretty well (or not)19:21
whitequarkand then I'd just polish it by hand, no big deal19:22
DocScrutinizer05no idea what I'm looking at21:02
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: how long will russian people tolerate or even ignore or not notice/question the lies they are told by Putin-controlled russian media about Ukraine?21:25
DocScrutinizer05how long will they applaud the obvious and even admitted lies Putin himself is telled all day long?21:28
DocScrutinizer05is telling*21:28
DocScrutinizer05He admitted in a life show in Russian TV that regular Russian army been in Crimea al the time from very beginning, something he outright denied just a week before21:30
DocScrutinizer05Is there a mentality in Russia similar to that in some muslim countries that considers lying to the enemy a honorable thing, and an enemy that doesn't shoot the liar right away is a chicken and an idiot?21:33
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: (gif) it's some aliasing glitch in the OpenSCAM renderer21:35
whitequarkit's funny21:35
whitequark(putin) why are you asking me? I'm hardly representative for all russian people21:36
whitequarkbut if you want a guess...21:36
whitequarkactually, no guesses. I don't have any insight whatsoever into a typical football (or is it hockey today?) fan screaming something under my window after consuming a sixpack of beer21:39
whitequarkI doubt logic or reflection ever crosses that mind21:39
wpwrakit also seems that DocScrutinizer05 is exposed to large doses of western propaganda. as far as i can tell, putin isn't doing anything half as bad as the US had done without the west even getting concerned.21:59
whitequarkcould also be that muslims are "those non-people" and eastern europeans evoke at least some feeling of kinship22:08
whitequark(not as much directed to DocScrutinizer05 but to west in general.)22:09
wpwrakyes, that's quite possible. of course, "muslims" would then also have to include a number of other people, asians, latinos, etc.22:13
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: again, since you seem to have forgotten about last time I tild you: I', not listening to any propaganda, and asling about putin's lies is hardly related to any such propaganda even when I would do22:19
DocScrutinizer05please reread your own statement one before last and try to see how little sense it makes22:21
DocScrutinizer05whitequark: thanks! I see, it's hard for anybody with a sane mind to guess about what the plebs will do22:23
DocScrutinizer05wpwrak: when you honestly think that you need to ignore what Russia does to destabilize Ukraine, just so you demonstrate that you're not suffering from influence of western propaganda, then I guess you're already hopelessly brainwashed by eastern propaganda, since that#s exactly what Russia basically tries to transport with all the lies they spread22:27
DocScrutinizer05when you think a past crime done by A justifies a crime now B is doing, then I wonder what's your concept of humanity22:29
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: http://i.imgur.com/QSO4jWs.jpg23:01
whitequarkin 100┬Ám layers23:01
whitequarkit's really smooth to touch23:01
whitequarkI didn't use acrylic because constantly hauling water for 40+ minutes is not something I'm looking forward to23:03
DocScrutinizer05why don't you place the pump under the table into the bucket where the water gathers?23:14
whitequarkwell, let's start with the fact that I want to phase out the table-and-bucket thing completely23:16
whitequarkbecause water slowly kills the table, inexplicably oozing through some not-enough-sealed edges and making the MDF expand23:16
whitequarkgranted, I bought this table specifically as a worktable, and I'll leave it in RU most likely, but it's still not nice23:16
whitequarkthen continue to the fact that there is a LOT of pulp that results from milling acrylic 23:17
whitequarklike, I recently milled several parts with total edge length somewhere under 1m, and there's several cubic cm of acrylic chips23:18
whitequarkI'm not sure I want to recirculate that23:18
whitequarkthe pump *probably* wouldn't give a fuck, the nozzle has some likelihood of clogging, and the endmill for sure doesn't want to recut chips23:19
DocScrutinizer05that's the whole point of using water ;-)23:19
DocScrutinizer05avoid recut23:19
whitequarkwell, and cooling23:19
DocScrutinizer05well, and cooling23:20
whitequarkahem :)23:20
whitequarkwith my new system, it's really great. before I made it truly flood, the chips still stayed there, they just didn't get too much in the way of endmill23:20
whitequarkwith the Enhanced Flow", there is absolutely no chips in the work area23:21
DocScrutinizer05how about using tap water for source, and the pump to move the gathered waste water to the sewer?23:26
DocScrutinizer05for extra credits on leeteness, use a electromagnetic valve from an old washing machine to automatically start tap water via CNC controller (e.g. a relais in parallel to spindle motor, or whatever)23:29
whitequarkno need for weird setups, the box has an output specially for that (I'd still need the relay though)23:30
rohwhitequark: what are you milling that you cant cool with oil-mist and or air?23:30
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: tap water... this would involve almost 10m of tubing. not too good23:30
whitequarkroh: acrylic23:31
whitequarkif I don't use water, it destroys my endmills pretty much immediately and/or has really shitty finish, basically just melted bumpy crap23:31
whitequarkoil-mist? like hell I'm going to have everything covered in oil. everything covered is water is bad enough already (remember I'm not american and don't have a dedicated garage, just a tiny apartment.)23:32
DocScrutinizer05:nod:  in line with common knowledge as of the intarwebs23:32
DocScrutinizer05for milling acrylic, lots of water are strongly recommended23:33
DocScrutinizer05well, water anyway23:33
DocScrutinizer05given the chips make a nice slurry with the water, I think _lots_ of water are OK23:34
rohwhitequark: maybe just mill slower.. not only less feed, also less rpm23:34
whitequarkroh: under 7000rpm it begins to lose power rapidly23:34
DocScrutinizer05exactly wrong23:34
whitequarkand I tried to go as slow as it's sane... say 10mm/min (ten). same result23:35
rohwhitequark: i see.23:35
DocScrutinizer05the slower you cut acrylic, the more it heats up23:35
rohDocScrutinizer05: only if you keep the rpm up23:35
rohwhitequark: sounds like a case to cool with water and alcohol 50/50 floodstyle23:35
whitequarkyeah, that was my conclusion as well. very rapid feeds compared to slow ones, on same rpm, seem to somewhat lessen the damage, but it's bad for other reasons23:35
DocScrutinizer05reducing RPM even more prone to clog mill with chips23:36
whitequarkroh: well, I just use water right now23:36
whitequarkfloodstyle exactly, about 1L/5min23:36
rohmaybe use metal (aluminium) clamping tools23:36
whitequarkwait, are you basically suggesting I cool it down with vodka? :D23:36
rohwell.. yes... and no.23:36
rohyou drink the vodka and give the undrinkable industrial shit to your mill23:37
DocScrutinizer05alcohol actually might improve results23:37
whitequark(clamping tools) I have a wooden board with a set of embedded nuts, as a victim material slash fixture, but it really tends to expand and mess things up23:37
DocScrutinizer0550/50 sounds OK23:37
DocScrutinizer05maybe rather use 30/70 alc/H2O23:38
whitequarkthe table is Al and it's fine with water all over it. some screws are apparently Fe though and give off rust stains :( damn greedy communist23:38
rohyep. i used mdf and later multiplex as well.. but that sucks when you got more than one piece to make since it looses precision fast23:38
whitequarkroh: have you thought of using mdpe?23:38
whitequarkor hdpe. polyethylene, the harder kind23:39
whitequarklike that, I bought two sheets for a test23:39
rohsounds like very wobbly and not really temperature proof23:39
whitequarkit doesn't expand, is a good victim (won't break endmills), easy to process23:39
whitequarkwobbly... but I screw this down hard to the table anyway23:39
rohi was actually thinkink of  building a clamping table with pneumatics23:40
DocScrutinizer05wobbly is no problem since support from table. Temperature shouldn't be an issue either23:40
whitequarktemperature proof... if your victim material is that hot you've got a problem23:40
rohwe recently got a *load of pneumatic actuators and stuff for air-pressure.. 23:40
whitequarkroh: (pneumatics) sounds really fragile (1 chip and it's done), and you can't really mill all the way down23:40
whitequarkso you have to break out the part, then sand down edges. ew23:40
rohthus i was thinking of building a universal clamping tool for rectangular flat stuff23:40
rohwhitequark: its industrial stuff, cylinders etc in completely encapsuled, linear actuators, even some rotational ones.23:41
rohsome linear bearing rails and gliders and various bosch-profile parts and mechanics23:41
DocScrutinizer05nice stuff23:42
DocScrutinizer05just air actuators have a well defined force but no defined position23:42
DocScrutinizer05they are usually "elastic"23:43
rohhttp://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/double-rod-double-acting-pneumatic-cylinders-20363-4015376.jpg such and similar ones23:43
rohDocScrutinizer05: thats fine. i want something to clamp with defineable force.. i can do that with a pressure-regulator then. pressure = force23:43
DocScrutinizer05thus you usually only use them "binary" - I.E. move to either end of actuator way23:44
DocScrutinizer05yes, for that they are ideal23:44
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: you could have a ratio of pressures on both sides23:45
whitequarkbuuut you need some kind of closed loop to keep that ratio constant in face of external force23:46
whitequarkand it's probably just not worth it23:46
DocScrutinizer05a friend of mine did apprentice at MAN, where the chief of the hall had an own in-hall office with windows that opened and closed with such pneumatic actuators. One day they adjusted the pressure regulator for that contraption from 0.2 to 8bar X-P23:46
whitequarkhaha. not even one window survived?23:47
whitequarkbet he was pissed off23:48
DocScrutinizer05I guess that's true23:48
DocScrutinizer05but of course nobody confessed the prank23:48
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: btw, why would cooling it with vodka be better than just water?23:49
whitequarkalcohol has lower heat capacity23:49
DocScrutinizer05I think a) alcohol has some ointment properties, and b) it's obviously reducing the boiling temperature23:50
DocScrutinizer05a drop or two of detergent would also be wort a test, I guess23:50
Action: whitequark imagines a combination of all of the above. drunk whitequark babysitting a CNC mill soaked in vodka and constantly producing soap bubbles23:51
DocScrutinizer05yeah XD23:52
DocScrutinizer05I don't think combination of detergent and alcohol is a good idea23:52
whitequarkfrankly I consider the smell of ethanol disgusting enough to not want to try this23:53
DocScrutinizer05the both may react with each other in quite surprising ways23:53
whitequarkalso if someone visits my apartment, they'll be really worried23:53
whitequark"it's... uhh... for cooling the CNC mill. yeah!"23:53
whitequark"it has ointment properties! *hiccup*"23:54
Action: whitequark coughs23:54
DocScrutinizer05others just clean windows with it23:54
whitequarkDocScrutinizer05: (combination of detergent and ethanol) that sounds like a weird claim23:54
DocScrutinizer05not really, see soap immobilized hydrocarbon23:55
whitequarkdetergent is usually a glycerol complex ether of fatty acids23:55
whitequarkor some variation thereof23:55
whitequarknothing to react with -OH23:55
DocScrutinizer05aka soap spirit, aka e.g. Esbit23:55
DocScrutinizer05ok, esbit is not exactly with soap, it seems23:59
DocScrutinizer05and I dunno if soap actually reacts with alcohol, or only with non water mixable hydrocarbon liquids23:59
--- Mon May 26 201400:00

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